Claims to Attainments

RE: Cushion Report: Knowledge of Suffering

Bruno Loff — Mon, 06 Sep 2010 13:18:45 GMT

I know what you mean, I can sometimes go into practice with one intention and then do something else entirely. Sometimes this causes me to progress (stream-entry was obtained by first following instructions precisely and then a few hours before I changed into something else entirely, which intuitively felt was what I should be doing), but sometimes it causes me not to progress.

One of the things I've started doing more thoroughly was, have a number of things I "might do" during a session, under some priority, and then if one doesn't work, move on to the next one.

RE: Cushion Report: Knowledge of Suffering

Daniel Johnson — Mon, 06 Sep 2010 02:36:41 GMT

Thanks Pavel,
Yes, your point is well made. I wasn't observing all the moment to moment sensations that made up the experience of the insights, thoughts, resistance, suffering, etc and the subsequent relief and ease. Do you have more suggestions like this? It's weird because it's like I hear it time and time and time again, and it makes sense when I hear it, and then when I meditate, it only happens a small fraction of the time. Like, the actual noting of moment to moment sensations only happens every so often, even when intellectually I know that this is supposedly what the practice is. But, doing the practice is something else entirely. The more I think about that, the more I get how profound that question is that Hokai asks: "what's the difference between doing it and getting it done?" Like, it's beyond me... I really can't seem to figure out what the difference is between when I'm just doing it and when all of a sudden, I'm just getting it done... and then I'm just doing it again. Like, I would want to call it grace, or conditional arising or something, but I'm just not sure for sure.

Thanks,

Daniel

RE: Cushion Report: Knowledge of Suffering

k a steger — Mon, 06 Sep 2010 02:18:29 GMT

Thanks, Pavel, Daniel. I didn't connect my cushion-time wall experience to "non-acceptance" (which rang true as soon as I read your posts), but in non-cushion time the feeling of accepting has been a new surprise occurring over these past three weeks. Novel for me; I can't even slightly explain why or what has changed that "acceptance" is now shaping some perception.

RE: Cushion Report: Knowledge of Suffering

Pavel O. — Sun, 05 Sep 2010 21:53:51 GMT

Hey Daniel,

Great work noticing the non-acceptance. Maybe instead of thinking of undercurrents, you could look at it moment-to-moment, such as noticing for example that a lot of sensations are followed by a resistance of some sort (breath is great for this, there is all sort of pushing, pulling, holding and other noticable manipulation) and that this resistance is followed by sensations that could be labeled as suffering (the unbearableness).

Is this distinction clear or noticeable?

And did you note the ease, peace and simplicity when it developed in relation to other sensations and occurred moment-to-moment?

All the best (and get it over with Goddammit),

Pavel

RE: Cushion Report: Knowledge of Suffering

Daniel Johnson — Sun, 05 Sep 2010 03:08:39 GMT

I'll say a little more about the Knowledge of Suffering I experienced in this recent retreat, since it wasn't just meant as a cute joke.

I had one moment in particular where I really just got on such a more profound level than ever before: "The suffering runs DEEP." Like, I think I had been trying to brush it off before as just the "dark night" or just some this or that. But, then it really hit me, this is real and it's profound. And, I don't say this to glorify it or anything. It wasn't a grandiose vision of suffering or melodramatic or anything, it was more of a "getting real" moment. And, along with this came the insight that everytime in the past when I noted suffering, or investigated suffering, there was always a subtle undercurrent of non-acceptance in that it was always being percieved in the context of going beyond suffering or being liberated from suffering, etc. This time, there wasn't such a sense of trying to change it or fix it or anything, it was more like a simple and peaceful: "whoa... suffering. oh... yeah... suffering."

Anyway, I'm glad my mention of the dolphins had some effect on you. I didn't really know what it meant to "dedicate" my retreat to something, but it felt right in the moment, and clearly it's brought some awareness to the subject. It seems like raising awareness about things like this tends to awaken the impulse to rectify the situations.

Thanks for your response. I appreciate it. And, definitely I'll keep my eye on the preservation of self.

- Daniel

RE: Another claimant !

Ian And — Sat, 04 Sep 2010 07:03:35 GMT

Paul K:

Okay. It's good to have a little more information about your situation. I can relate to "tormented ceaselessly by existential angst and have run amuck to find some answers or at least some cure." That confirms your sincerity and a level of dedication to finding a solution. This is good.

Paul K:

The desire to know/confirm where I stand on this path has been fueled by the doubt, that is it my mind playing games with me or is this feeling for real and going to stay. Also a confirmation that I am heading in the right direction.

That sounds like a reasonable request. But you know you're going to be playing with that old bugaboo "doubt" all the way through until you reach stream entry. Someone who has entered the stream no longer doubts the Dhamma that was taught by the Buddha. I know that's not what you are talking about (namely, trying to make sense of your mind and the tricks it may be playing with you), but there's one marker for you to consider. On the other hand, rest assured that you are indeed heading in the right direction. So far.

Paul K:

You talked about certain markers. It would be of great help if you could enumerate them. Maybe after you enlist them I can better judge my position.

There are any number of opinions these days about what constitutes "stream entry," not all of them approved or promoted here in this forum. I tend to stick closely to what is mentioned in the discourses of the Buddha, since it is his methodology that we are supposed to be learning and not someone else's. You'll have to make your own decision about what is best for you once you are able to see these opinions for yourself. I would recommend sticking with what the Buddha originally taught as it has served me very well and I know it will serve others well also.

Traditionally, stream entry entails the dropping of self-identification as a delusive view of the world and one's experience, seeing the attributes we attribute to "self" (namely, the five aggregates of form, feeling, perception, volition, and consciousness) as being without self. It also entails, as mentioned earlier, letting go of doubts about the Dhamma, seeing enough truth in it to have developed faith that what the Buddha has to teach will actually help to alleviate the dissatisfaction we have with life. A third factor involved is the dropping of clinging to religious rites and rituals, seeing that in most instances these have little to do with retraining and reconditioning the mind to be able to see things as they truly are, rather than as the delusions that we often take events to be.

You might want to check out the following link about stream entry and how it is viewed from a canonical standpoint. While it may seem a bit extreme in places, there are very good reasons why it is defined in this way. You actually have to have made some realizations to be considered as having entered the stream on the way to experiencing nibbana in your life.

You're well on your way to achieving stream entry if the description you wrote is any guide. The fact that you have begun to experience some relief from dukkha is evidence of that, and should be an encouragement for you to continue on in the direction you have already traveled. There's more to learn a little ways down the stream from where you're currently at, and you will be well pleased with yourself if you should keep following that path.

RE: Cushion Report: Knowledge of Suffering

k a steger — Sat, 04 Sep 2010 04:56:29 GMT

Hi Daniel -

Thanks for this post about your weekend work.

You recently dedicated your practice to dolphins (timing with Taiji hunting now). Tonight, my partner rented the documentary about dolphin slaughter/harvest, The Cove. His courage, and recent changes in my own practice, enabled me to watch and not self-destruct in the wake of seeing the footage. As with other cruelty made public, my gratitude goes to the makers of the documentary and the people challenged by it.

I am keen to dedicate/focus tomorrow's practice to the fishermen, politicians, children, all of us at various moments in their same situation. Any resulting benefit will probably be to my awareness alone, but if there's any expansion in my small world of awareness, then this dedication would have some use (if one hopes/trusts the jhanic system of cycling toward 'saving all sentient beings').

In August, when DN was hitting new lows, I sent a private message to a DhO member and their few sentences of recognition somehow generated a resolution to sit and face it. I did not encounter anything 'awful' during these resulting "face-it" sits or the days in between. What I found in practice was a monolithic sense of self, like the 2001 Space Odyssey towering slab, using suffering, fear and anger in self-preservation/sustenance. I cannot call it a "wall of psychosis" only because the awareness of it seemed to de-fang it. The psychosis came in daily life, practice avoidance, trouble-making.

Previously, I would not have been able to watch this documentary footage or engage the despair without a resulting destructive anger and depression. While I am not trying to stop my suffering of suffering, seeing that this self-preservation was taking over the knowledge of suffering has been useful to erode this manipulation, which manipulation renders the knowledge beyond useless, adding to that suffering.

After several years of this self that usurps knowledge of suffering for its own protection, equanimity is a sudden shift for witnessing inexhaustible cruelties.

More on your KoS?

Katy

RE: Another claimant !

Richard B — Sat, 04 Sep 2010 03:26:23 GMT

I think Shinzen Young has good modern descriptions of enlightenment. From what I gather you start with concentration until you can get enough habit that after the meditation it feels like it's still going even when you're not trying, meaning it's more automatic and easier to perform. When that is reached you move on to mindfulness (which requires good concentration) which involves very detailed and constant noting of all experience (thoughts, body sensations, emotions, etc). When that mindfulness becomes automatic (from doing so much practice) it's possible to feel as if the self is in that automation and just be with experience in non-dual awareness. There are many descriptions on this board of stream-entry (like a computer restarting, bliss wave, etc) but most likely it will be a very gradual rewiring of the brain after lots of work before you get there.

Shinzen Young

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=i288Lnb7NOk
at 8:30

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pHUajtPXPDw&feature=related

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mwOccTTAcVw

As you can see it's hard to explain and takes lots of training (as in years).

RE: Another claimant !

Paul K — Fri, 03 Sep 2010 23:37:10 GMT

I am neither taking it as a game nor as an ego trip. I have been tormented ceaselessly by existential angst and have run amuck to find some answers or atleast some cure. Fortunately this practice has helped immensely though still not enough. Having said that, I whole heartedly agree with your arguments.

The desire to know/confirm where I stand on this path has been fueled by the doubt, that is it my mind playing games with me or is this feeling for real and going to stay. Also a confirmation that I am heading in the right direction.

You talked about certain markers. It would be of great help if you could enumerate them. Maybe after you enlist them I can better judge my position.

Thanks for your reply.

Cushion Report: Knowledge of Suffering

Daniel Johnson — Fri, 03 Sep 2010 21:17:43 GMT

I thought it'd be fun to put this in the claims to attainment. I'm claiming Knowledge of Suffering... yeah! say what?!

I'm not sure if there's much to report, though. I decided to put together a meditation schedule for my self-retreat this week in hopes that it would help with my continuity of practice, and I'd say it was very helpful. Sticking to the schedule allowed my mind to relax and just be in the moment. I also tried to focus on the fundamentals - seven factors of enlightenment, and just being mindful from moment to moment.

I spent a lot of time noting pain and suffering. I like the phrase "knowledge of suffering", because I think I gained a lot of experiential knowledge of suffering (for better or worse). Using Goenka-terminology, I think a "very deeeep rooted sankhara had risen to the surface to pass away."

On the afternoon of Day 2, similar to last weeks retreat, I hit the same wall of "psychosis". This time, however, I was much more calm, resisting less, and more deeply resolved to stay with the experience to the end. (I think the schedule and the focus on fundamentals helped here.) I explored it a bit more. It was like I was barely able to walk from one room to the other without holding on to the wall, muscles weak, and I was staring at everything with a sorta serial-killer stare. Not much more was functioning in my mind-body than feeble walking, staring, and this time a hint of mindfulness. Anyway, it lasted about an hour and then broke into what seemed like some low-level equanimity last night.

Anyway, that marks 4 weeks of 2 day self retreats each week. I may switch things up a bit now for the coming weeks. Also, this marks about one year since I finished my first reading of MCTB, sat a 10-day Goenka and got my (probably) first glimpse of equanimity nyana. I'd say the last year has been full of profound insights and growth. It took me about three months before I knew that I'd reached equanimity. Then, I think I spent another 6 months really exploring, enjoying and discovering what equanimity was all about, and then the last three months, I've started growing tired of equanimity and wanting the next step.

I'm not sure what it'll take to get to the next step (stream entry) right now. If these two-day self retreats don't do the trick, I think I'll probably quit my job again next January and move back to a retreat center somewhere.

I don't have many more notes on my retreat, as I was actually spending more time just being mindful and less time reflecting on my experience, so I don't remember as much of it.

Oh, that suffering's a doosey!

- Daniel

RE: Another claimant !

Ian And — Fri, 03 Sep 2010 18:09:00 GMT

The trouble with asking such questions of amateurs on an Internet forum is, they abound, and often only offer misleading or misguided information, chiefly because they themselves were never properly informed about the subject matter. And so they pass on their misinformation for others to become misinformed by.

The only way to obtain a reliable answer to such questions is to be dealing with someone whom you trust knows what they are talking about, and that means having established a prior relationship with such a person. Yet, in order to get to know and trust such a person, one must first spend time with that person, observing them, getting to know how they act and react to life. One must be able to confirm the changes that one wishes to make in oneself, and be able to see those attributes in the person they have chosen to trust.

You don't know me, and, conversely, I don't know you. So, whatever I have to say may have absolutely no meaning for you whatsoever. Yet, in matters such as the one you have written and are asking about, there are certain markers that should be apparent in the matters the person has written about. I'm not seeing, however, any of those markers in what you wrote. This is not a game. And it is not an ego trip for people to gain recognition of for the levels of enlightenment they have attained to. So, posting on a public forum is the last place one should seek for such confirmation.

If you're really sincere about knowing where you are, you will seek out the guidance of an experienced practitioner, preferably one with whom you have personal contact and trust. That's the only way you can be relatively confident in another's opinion of where you are on the path. Especially, if you are a newbie. That personal contact with someone you personally know and trust is indispensable.

RE: Another claimant !

Bruno Loff — Fri, 03 Sep 2010 11:46:11 GMT

Wait a while, if the realisation is true, this change in perception will last, and develop in new and different ways. In any case, the answer is "keep practicing," and it will be until you have completed the thing.

You can test it a few ways. Can you connect to the three characteristics (impermanence, non-satisfactoryness and no-self)? I mean, can you look at the world with these knowledges? They are really clear modes of perception (e.g., if you do the no-self thing, it will really look as though there is no-one controlling your own gestures, intentions, thoughts, etc), and although they weren't so clear to me during most of the 1st path, they where in the days following stream entry.

Another claimant !

Paul K — Thu, 02 Sep 2010 21:20:15 GMT

Hello Everyone,

3 days back, while sitting in my couch and working on my assignment I had an experience which makes me feel that I have gained the stream entry. Describing the experience is very difficult but I will give it a shot.

Everyone on the forum talks about "blip". I have absolutely no idea what is this "blip". May be I experienced it, may be I did not. What exactly happened was that I was working on my laptop and all of a sudden there was this new level of consciousness, there was a realisation and this realisation has changed the whole world for me. Not in any measurable terms but in my perception of it. I had the realisation that "Holy shit ! all this time I had been subscribing to a convention and I was perceiving the world according to this convention, and that whole convention is baseless and senseless. There is a bigger deeper story behind my existence and this whole drama going on around me." The whole world has changed for me, and yet nothing has changed. Things feel different.

Sorry for being so vague, but its so difficult to put my experience into words.

What makes me very confident about my claim is that, in most of the literature i have read, it is written that one who attains the first path, ceases to be skeptic about this whole mediation process. And this has happened to me. Its like i have experienced it myself that things are fishy around here. Beware of your senses/perceptions/thoughts/mind . All is not what meets the eye. I have felt it first hand. Its as if someone had heard about/read ghost stories but has seen one for real with his own eyes.

One thing that makes me doubt about my attainment is that I have very poor concentration. My meditation practices are not longer than 5-10 minutes but there are many sessions in the whole day (5-10). Its like I will be waiting for my laptop to boot and in those 30 seconds i will meditate. I will be copying files from CD to hardrive. I will meditate then. I mean whenever i am waiting for something to happen, i meditate (noting technique).

I request the experienced members to help me resolve my doubts.

But, I must say, the way it feels - I think I hit the 1st base

Thank you,

Paul

RE: Eckhart Tolle and Krishnamurti Arahats?

Mic Hoe — Sat, 21 Aug 2010 13:06:09 GMT

Daniel M. Ingram:

While I use the word "emptiness" at times, I agree it is really problematic and does seem to imply all sorts of things, and also seems to be used in all sorts of contexts.

I have seen the word emptiness used in ways [...].

What is behind the question, meaning, what are you looking for that clarifying this word will help?

Thanks Daniel. I'm new to the 4 path model and trying to get to grips with it. When I hear that the 4th path has a 'sense of emptiness', I'm reminded of perhaps the more common usage, such as Adyashanti talking about a 'beautiful, empty nothingness', whilst admitting that empty means empty of self nature. It all sounds a bit 3rd path to me, as far as I understand the model, (an identification with awareness that doesn't find identity (the one and only thing it unconsciously 'has' left) in experience, hence 'emptiness'?)

And calling it beautiful suggests he hasn't got over himself yet.

But perhaps it's just a language thing. I've often thought that mystical utterances must be new visions expressed in an old language. What was that about the moon and the finger? Perhaps Adya gives it too much finger for my tastes

Do you understand what I mean when I question a sense or quality of emptiness (of self nature)? Is it not similar to believing you live in a world of things and then, realising this isn't the case, telling everyone about nothingness? It's as if the mind hasn't caught up with its vision.

Thanks for the input. And as I'm new to this place, let me say I think you've got a great and valuable community together here.

RE: Eckhart Tolle and Krishnamurti Arahats?

Daniel M. Ingram — Sat, 21 Aug 2010 07:09:49 GMT

This thread reminded me of the fact that Chuck is not around much anymore and I miss him being here more of the time.

Anyway, regarding your questions...

While I use the word "emptiness" at times, I agree it is really problematic and does seem to imply all sorts of things, and also seems to be used in all sorts of contexts.

I have seen the word emptiness used in ways from which I have inferred that people actually mean:

-nothingness, as in the 7th jhana
-neither perception nor yet non-perception, the 8th jhana
-luminosity, meaning that phenomena simply are presenting where they are without a separate watcher of them
-empty of a doer, meaning that this happen on their own, i.e. causally
-empty of a separate self entity, which can refer to everything from unitive experiences to stages of realization
-some anagami-dearm of an ultimate superspace or ultimate Watcher, like a glorified super-subject or super-self, or Self, or Tao or Buddha Mind or some other golden cage illusion
-other experiences that were too vague to get a handle on and other "unknown events", meaning events where there was not enough information to make sense of them for whatever reason
-Fruitions
-the experience of being an arahat

I am sure there are others.

It is an ambiguous word unless one is sure based on previous personal definition done by the user of what they mean by it or the context makes it unusually clear.

What is behind the question, meaning, what are you looking for that clarifying this word will help?

Daniel

RE: Krishnamurti,Buddha,Concepts,Actual Freedom

Aman A. — Mon, 16 Aug 2010 02:45:53 GMT

benucci benassi:

There is also a big conceptual conflict on the art of living if you compare Krishnamurtis teachings and buddhist
practices, so I am eager to know from people, who have non conceptual experiences maybe from buddhist practices,
if there is a difference of unconditioning the mind which leads to the non conceptual experience of who you are and coming back with no divisive conceptual opinions in mind and experiences like nirvana or stream entry and all these things?

If Buddhist practice leads to experiential realization of emptiness, then there are no divisive conceptual opinions in the mind.

After Avalokiteshvara told Shariputra that "form is emptiness; emptiness also is form," he went even further, pointing out that there is nothing—not even the Buddha's teachings—to hold on to: no three marks of existence, no suffering, no end of suffering, no imprisonment, no liberation. The story goes that many of the students were so dumbfounded by these teachings that they had heart attacks. A Tibetan teacher suggested that more likely they just got up and walked out of the talk. Like the Theosophists with Krishnamurti, they didn't want to hear this.

RE: Concepts of the non-conception and understanding

Jackson Wilshire — Thu, 22 Jul 2010 22:43:57 GMT

I wouldn't classify this as an "attainment" so much as a glimpse, and that's perfectly OK.

In the Dzogchen tradition, receiving pointing-out instructions is just the beginning. Recognizing self-existing awareness is 'Ground' (or 'View') of Dzogchen. The 'Path' (or 'Practice') is training in sustaining and stabilizing this recognition. 'Fruition' (or 'Result') is when continuous recognition has been truly mastered.

It's not supposed to be perfect in the beginning. There's a great deal of training involved, just like with all Buddhist practice. Remember what was pointed-out to you, and recognize it as often as you can, sitting or otherwise.

Best of luck!
Jackson

Concepts of the non-conception and understanding

Sherab Namdag — Thu, 22 Jul 2010 14:59:19 GMT

Earlier this year I was fortunate enough to receive pointing out instructions from a great dzogchen master. I cannot really claim to be able to describe the experience. I had received pointing out instructions before, but this was the first time i cried. It's hard to put a name on what it felt like, but it worked. Or at least I think so. I had the distinct experience of knowing the nature of mind: peace, acceptance, abiding may describe it. I realized that I had actually been practicing the buddhadharma, and that all the things in my life, that should've seemed catastrophic and unbearable were actually just there. As are they now.

Sometimes, though, I get the feeling that I'm just numb and haven't achieved anything.

RE: Was that stream entry?

tarin greco — Fri, 16 Jul 2010 08:24:05 GMT

K B:

A couple of pretty interesting no-self subexperiences. For a few brief moments I was able to let go of the perceiver, and "be" the various pockets of energy zipping around. Since these pockets happen in parallel, the resulting sensation was a bifurcation of consciousness, being in two places at the same time and one perceiving the other.

most likely a&p stuff, but regardless of what stage on the path of insight this occurred at, your practice sounds well worth doing, and what you describe as a bifurcation of consciousness is well, well worth paying close attention to.. particularly if you're already familiar with equanimity regarding formations.

One take-home for me is that this insight technique seems to be the way to go for me, and attempting concentration on its own seems to be a waste of time at this stage.

Also I came with a good mental hack for letting go of the desire for blissful states or expectations about the meditation. For anyone pre-4th path, what we want to attain is something we haven't experienced yet. So why bother the mind with expectations for things that we know are less awesome than what is still out there, when we could be having an open mind and a better time.

with an attitude like that, so-called 'dry insight' turns out to not be so dry after all.

tarin

RE: Was that stream entry?

K B — Fri, 16 Jul 2010 07:32:20 GMT

Hadn't had much practice time until the last few days.

Yesterday sat for an hour, quickly got to a state of deep absorption on the breath and blissed out.

Today I sat 4 times for about an hour apiece. First three sits, pretty frustrating. Was attempting to focus on the breath, and then on the body, to no avail. No ability to concentrate. Starting falling asleep.

On the final sit decided to just go for pure mindfulness of the rough texture of conscious experience. After some initial sloshing around, settled into a state of deep concentration, trying to stay with various pockets of energy as close as possible.

A couple of pretty interesting no-self subexperiences. For a few brief moments I was able to let go of the perceiver, and "be" the various pockets of energy zipping around. Since these pockets happen in parallel, the resulting sensation was a bifurcation of consciousness, being in two places at the same time and one perceiving the other.

Soon after that state ended, i noticed this aggregate of processes breathing in and out. There was still a weak sense of self in the mental realm (which felt like it might topple over at any moment), but it was totally disassociated from the physical body.

I ended the session in a state of strong equanimity, and perceiving things at a pretty bare level, vibrations in the 20hz range.

One take-home for me is that this insight technique seems to be the way to go for me, and attempting concentration on its own seems to be a waste of time at this stage.

Also I came with a good mental hack for letting go of the desire for blissful states or expectations about the meditation. For anyone pre-4th path, what we want to attain is something we haven't experienced yet. So why bother the mind with expectations for things that we know are less awesome than what is still out there, when we could be having an open mind and a better time.

RE: Was that stream entry?

Steph S — Sat, 10 Jul 2010 22:11:16 GMT

Cool link, DN!

KB - Keep us updated

Thanks for all the feedback, everyone. Really helped settle some doubts I had, clarify what I thought might have been the case, and put a positive perspective on things. I'm not calling it for sure yet cuz it's still pretty soon (a month after), but I'm going on my hunch that it was stream-entry and will see what happens with more practice. Either way, I'm happy and reaping benefits, so that's awesome. Now to get back into the swing of regular practice. More fun and investigation to be had!

Steph

RE: Was that stream entry?

Dark Night Yogi — Sat, 10 Jul 2010 06:49:42 GMT

right now, I'm in awe to be reading this link and having myself had profound experiences. It makes me think theres more to dharma than just completing the physio-energetic circuit.

RE: Was that stream entry?

Dark Night Yogi — Sat, 10 Jul 2010 06:35:32 GMT

@ Steph
sounds like stream entry to me! definitely cessation as well! way to go!!
re: being sick of the maps, I sometimes get sick of the maps, the cycles, but I don't really give importance to where I am unless I need to. These times are most usually in A & P, its the most obvious and the most dangerous, the time that tells me to watch out and relax if not i'll burn myself out or possibly hit a dark night. Equanimity stages are also sometimes very mellow/subtle/hard to tell/non-existent. The beginning of a new path after equanimity also hard to tell sometimes.

re: stream entry visuals, pretty cool stuff! The red is something interesting, coz I usually see blue at the third eye chakra area, but havnt really seen other colors.

@ KB
re: wisdom and faith follower, I was thinking about that earlier too.. Its like, Nikolai and others have developed awesome control of their mind, the ability to have fruitons, get nirodha samapati, and other stuff like that..
And then some people develop great wisdom and are able to understand the 3 C's and feel like they've uncracked the mystery of the universe. Some can feel like they have understood the complexities of tibetan buddhism just like that.. amazing bliss waves, great gratitude, great compassion, great visuals, being in the moment feelings of peace.

While googling on the wisdom faith follower, I came across this article

"this person is a Faith-follower, that person a Dharma-follower. This person is a dweller in Emptiness, that person a dweller in the Signless, that person a dweller in the Wishless. The five cardinal virtues will arise in this person by means of the emptiness-door to deliverance, in that person by means of the signless door to deliverance, in that person by means of the wishless door to deliverance. By means of the five cardinal virtues this one gazes upon the unimpeded concentration. By means of the unimpeded concentration he will produce the vision and cognition of emancipation. By means of the vision and cognition of emancipation he will forsake three fetters, i.e., the view of individuality, the contagion of mere rule and ritual, and doubt" http://www.bhaisajyaguru.com/buddhist-ayurveda-encylopedia/five_eyes_pancha-chaksus_panca-cakkhuni_wu-yan_chaksu.htm

Here's some more stuff that happened right before or right after or during the time I got stream entry, some of it I only remembered now..
I was experiencing what feels like being in the middle of intersecting dimensions. But it was only for mind moments at a time, so its hard to tell what exactly it was. One mind moment felt like i was in the middle of a life-size mandala, one was me looking at a picture of people, and seeing/understanding their interconnection and their family tree. Like at that mind moment, my mind was visualizing or remembering branches and history in lightning fast speed. Another mind moment, I remembered or recalled or saw what seemed like the real actual person (a meditator I knew) but I saw her as she really was, with no ignorance. I felt a feeling of great compassion and I cried. I saw her happening with open eyes infront of me but at the same time it was as real as real..

If experiences of stream entry have to do with the 5 doors described above, I think I entered the "Signless" door. Signlessness was something I experienced prior and after stream entry a lot, it was beautiful and it was this quality that drew in me great compassion and understanding, like in the time I saw the real actual person.

RE: Was that stream entry?

Nikolai S Halay — Fri, 09 Jul 2010 23:50:12 GMT

K B:

I think its great that others are adding their experiences! Thats very helpful.

Seems that lots of people talk about the bliss wave and gratitude, and deeper understanding of the 3C's. The cycling and concentration skills seem more variable.

I definitely felt a bliss wave but it wasn't something to write home about.

The main feeling for the next day or two was just "freedom", not feeling pushed around by desire and aversion, general calm and emptiness of mind, clearer perception of the world. Some of that "cloud 9" feeling for sure.

At that point real life interveaned with somewhat of a crises and broke that state, though I am confident that I have some new understanding or a "taste" of the 1st path even if that wasnt it.

I suspect that I might be a wisdom follower and/or a faith follower, and that might influence one's reaction to stream entry as well. I wonder what any teachers know about that..

Hey KB,

If you got SE, well done!

My experience and as far as I know the experience of several other post-pathers is that one really only gains more control over calling up fruitions after 2nd path. It becomes much easier to experience them when you want. However, I would not rule out having that skill at SE. I just would not rely too much on the idea that you "should" have that skill after SE. At 2nd path it should become a piece of cake. For me that was the case. I can call up a frution at will. I also have experience at the end of a cycle after a fruition where I will go through what Kenneth Folk calls review phase A, if remember correctly. In that review phase I sometimes get multiple uncontrollable fruitions one after the other for maybe 30 minutes max, and then I'll drop inot another cycle. I think these skills and experiences vary widely though. But you should have some imporved concetration, and like Pavel said, there is a feling that somtheing has changed in the brain. Something has dropped away....some suffering that is.

Once again, Congrats if it was SE!!!!

RE: Was that stream entry?

K B — Fri, 09 Jul 2010 20:38:43 GMT

RE: Was that stream entry?

Pavel O. — Fri, 09 Jul 2010 20:07:10 GMT

Sounds pretty clear to me, then again, I am no authority on other peoples' attainments :-) (or my own for that matter)

I took this to mean that getting repeat fruitions at will was one of the most non-negotiable markers of stream-entry (thus the pressure/stress I felt to make it happen in the following weeks). Maybe I have been experiencing fruitions without realizing it, in the same way you did. Maybe I haven't.

If you have had mini blip-like experiences that you thought may have been repeat fruitions but were not sure, then they probably were repeat fruitions. Also, during your repeat cycles, did you cycle from A&P - equanimity or did it start from mind&body? What happened after equanimity?

Anyway, there are people who simply seem to experience no repeat fruitions so its no big deal. (the other criteria seem more final to me, perhaps I am wrong in this). If, after all this time, you still suspect that you have done it then you probably have. Time helps makes sense of these things.

Daniel's book is written from a perspective of an insight powerhouse, a lot of the stuff there is only apparent with a lot of concentration and immense skills in insight, I wouldnt worry too much about being able to live up to those very high standards, then again, dont let me stop you.

Overall, it sounds like you got a hell of a lot of good things from it all, which is great, isnt it? As for continuing your practice, the next Dark Night may help you in this direction (if you dont decide to get more of that good stuff on your own anyway).

All the best!

RE: Was that stream entry?

Steph S — Fri, 09 Jul 2010 18:48:13 GMT

KB - I kind of feel like I hijacked your thread here. Apologies for that... feel free to take it back whenever. I'm hoping posting of others' experiences will be helpful to someone, though, so I made it detailed on purpose.

Here's a rundown of the more prominent parts of the actual what may have been stream-entry experience that I still remember. While I was sitting, there was a carnival going on at the church that's just across from my apartment building. Instead of being distracted by it, it was included in my entire field of experience, without effort really. Instead of the carnival being located somewhere out there its sounds (music, people happily screaming on rides, etc) were right there with me, not even in front of me, but actually directly part of me, since the sounds and other residual sensations were being heard/processed/experienced seamlessly. A bit deeper in, feeling pretty floaty and curious, I had a sensation of being some sort of force field of light, like a glowing mass of whitish light.. or maybe this other light pattern came first and I'm reversing.. hard to remember now.. but there were also separate horizontal planes of red light moving from the bottom of my body up to the top, like an elevator smoothly & briefly stopping on multiple floors. Onwards still, thoughts were popping into my head like.. "suffering is the anticipation of the next moment" so I tried to find the moments between moments (which are obviously still moments), which led to "suffering is the assumption that there will even be a next moment".

I was feeling really dreamy at this point... the totality would probably resemble something like the gravity defying feel and stark visual qualities of black outer space. At this point I wasn't even noting anymore.. perhaps too abstract? Things were happening slowly and thoughts were unintelligible happenings.. just sensations that were coming and going.. I can't explain how exactly, but without intervention of comprehension it was just known that it was all an integrated process going on. In my visual field, in the area of space that would be in front of me if existing in reality, I then saw separate neutral colored cubes lined up in an L formation floating in space. I don't know how, but it was somehow understood that these blocks represented my body. The cubes that were the appendage part of the L would move up and down, side to side as an arm or other body part would.. however, my actual body wasn't moving. The blocks then started rotating, in the visual field in front of me. As descriptively as I'm trying to write about the cube stuff now, then it was actually a fairly brief visualization and even somewhat faint/vague in appearance.

Following this visualization, there was a lapse of experience.. cessation? The only reason I'm aware of this lapse is because of being aware of a moment before and a moment after.. there was no awareness of anything between the before and after.. if that makes sense. The immediate after was a huge calm and giant smile on my face and thinking that was cessation. I felt a ton of pressure in my neck and back of my head, and front of my head/between my eyes (all stuff I've felt before occasionally). Slowly some doubt and a little fear started creeping in. And as slowly as doubt came, it crept away and brought in deep calm and gratitude. I started thinking about loved ones a bit and my heart was welling up. This was very pleasant and lasted a while, and then subsided to back to "normal".

The next day there were strong bliss waves and general feeling of being on cloud 9. There was also, at times, a creepy sensation of something following directly behind me. I'd even turn to look behind me, and of course nothing was there. I was also trying to get a repeat fruition, without any luck, at times being annoyed at this and other times not caring at all. My first prominent A&P cycle afterwards was more intense than before. Super-charged energy, reveling in joy & pleasure, and vivid, wildly colorful visualizations and intricate patterns. By the logic that A&P was so intense, Dark Night should have been too, right? Not really. I was pretty much able to laugh it off. Equanimity wasn't so intense either (not that it ever was) and the calmness, spaciousness etc was pretty similar to before. Other stuff about the following weeks in responses to questions below.

Pavel Oulik:

Here's the quote from MCTB (in the Was That Emptiness? chapter) that relates: "If you don’t have the necessary level of clarity and mastery to repeat the experience of interest again and again, either do enough clear and diligent practice to attain the required mastery or don’t ask the question." I took this to mean that getting repeat fruitions at will was one of the most non-negotiable markers of stream-entry (thus the pressure/stress I felt to make it happen in the following weeks). Maybe I have been experiencing fruitions without realizing it, in the same way you did. Maybe I haven't.

Pavel Oulik:

Also, your understanding of the three characteristics and the Dharma in general should somehow be firmer and more solid (and noticeable during practice, ie. you know that all sensations are impermanent, or that they are not being experienced by a self, or that they do not have the ability to satisfy).
Lastly, there should be something missing that was there before, even if it is quite hard to put your finger on what that something precisely is. You may notice that there are some things that no longer bother you, some obsessions that no longer occur, or simply that your mind does not seem to be quite as chaotic as before, even if your ability to notice the chaos has been heavily augmented. This may translate as a permanent decrease in suffering, even if the decrease is not very big or tangible.

Yes, about the 3 characteristics (as I mentioned in the "been there, done that" part of my previous post. It's just known, without effort). There's also a little shift of what's missing. Like you say, certain shit just doesn't phase me like it used to, or doesn't even enter in the first place. Yes, there's also general feeling of my head space being more open and less crowded. Getting back to my baseline of calm is easier when annoyances occur. To add to that, there's a subtly better knowing of the seamlessness of what's actually happening.. i.e. more intuitive that the world/"my" place in it/experiences are way less separate than I used to think. That being said, I also know the monkey mind is still at work, and there's a ways to go. And to that end... now what?

Thanks for the input so far,
Steph

RE: Was that stream entry?

Pavel O. — Fri, 09 Jul 2010 13:09:42 GMT

From what I have heard/been told, repeat fruitions do not happen to everybody (or at least, are not perceived by everybody). The ones that I have had were so quick that for about a year I doubted that I ever experienced any.

There are some other things that weren't mentioned by either you or the DN yogi that may make it easier to make up your mind.

There should be an increase in concentration, you mentioned making it to 2nd/3rd jhana in 30 minutes without much prior practice, that's kind of how it was for me. Also, right after stream entry I remember spontaneously entering very mild to fairly heavy states of absorption throughout my every day life. Since I did not practice it, after a while it once again became quite hard to enter hard concentration states, even if the entrance was much easier to hit than before.

Also, your understanding of the three characteristics and the Dharma in general should somehow be firmer and more solid (and noticeable during practice, ie. you know that all sensations are impermanent, or that they are not being experienced by a self, or that they do not have the ability to satisfy). I generally noticed that if I was to re-read MCTB afterwards there was a number of things that I got that I most definitely did not get before.

Lastly, there should be something missing that was there before, even if it is quite hard to put your finger on what that something precisely is. You may notice that there are some things that no longer bother you, some obsessions that no longer occur, or simply that your mind does not seem to be quite as chaotic as before, even if your ability to notice the chaos has been heavily augmented. This may translate as a permanent decrease in suffering, even if the decrease is not very big or tangible.

Any of that helpful? /and congratulations either way/

RE: Was that stream entry?

Dark Night Yogi — Fri, 09 Jul 2010 04:15:24 GMT

yana pets:

except I was forcing and forcing and putting a ton of pressure on myself to get a repeat fruition, to prove that it actually was stream entry... .and nothing. I cycled constantly in the week following. Things to investigate were also becoming increasingly uncertain (like noting the stuff I had noted before seemed like a step backwards

Was the cycling that happened the following week just going from dark night to equanimity and back down, and not completing the cycles? What you describe as constant cycling could also be the 'review phase' after stream entry. My review phase lasted exactly a week after stream entry, and had the exact feeling of "been there done that".

Its possible u did get it. Fruitons are obvious, but it may also be that you don't know what exactly to spot. When I used to get fruitons, alot of times I didn't notice them and didn't know that "that was it".
If you did feel the sense of relief, the after flow, return to normalcy, i'd think it was it.. Stream entry was really euphoric for me, and it felt like it unleashed tidal waves of Chi to flow as an after effect. The reason why the week after had the "been there done that" feel is also because there was so much Chi. I tried but never really learned how to resolve to attain repeat fruitons though.. or I didn't understand what for. it may be some people are more natural and talented in this..

yana pets:

After a couple weeks I was getting sick of the constant cycling/up & down and not knowing where I was at, so I got really discouraged and stopped practicing. Lots of wishing I had never heard of stream-entry or the maps or the stages, so I could practice without being influenced by what I thought was supposed to be happening

During that time for me, (after stream entry), I remember the cycles were not at all much different from before. What was really confusing for me though was starting 2nd path.

for me after that time I had alot of time on my hands to practice, and I read from Dan's book that after 1st path, its possible to attain 2nd path very quickly, so I kept practicing alot, and got 2nd path 24 days after the 1st.
If you did get stream entry, (or even if you didn't, you sure were close), then you probably have little more to go before 2nd path.
and 2nd path isn't far from 3rd path. and 3rd path is really good!! Makes it all worth it.

I compared Daniel I's timeline to mine and it seems to line up, in terms of how fast we progress. He got third path about a year after 2nd path, and he got 2nd path close after 1st path.

RE: Was that stream entry?

Steph S — Fri, 09 Jul 2010 00:42:40 GMT

Dark Night Yogi:

I was pretty determined and hyped-up, paranoid of falling back, excited at the whole thing..so i was applying a lot of concentration to my meditation. so my days were really Up and down.I fell back down to 3 characteristics once or twice as well. i.e.

Monday: Strong! equanimity!
tuesday: burned out.. still equanimity.. but slowly falling down to the dark night
wednesday: regaining strength.. still in dark night
thursday: Strong! equanimity!

But i didnt fall back in the sense where it was long-term.. and climbing back up never took more than a day or two
.I think I got a bit too addicted to meditation and the reason I was burning out was because I had that "I'm close! Maybe if i do it for a couple of more hours then I'm going to get it. Better meditate than sleep right now. Go all the way!"

This sounds pretty similar to where I was at. I was practicing at least an hour a day (there were some weekdays when I got 4 hours in and on weekends I'd usually do between 2-4 hours each day). I'm still unsure whether or not I actually did get stream entry. I had an experience (in late April) and everything about it lines up to what I've read about stream entry from events leading up to it, formations, the blip of cessation, the afterglow, return to normalcy, the way I related to the world etc afterwards... except I was forcing and forcing and putting a ton of pressure on myself to get a repeat fruition, to prove that it actually was stream entry... .and nothing. I cycled constantly in the week following. Things to investigate were also becoming increasingly uncertain (like noting the stuff I had noted before seemed like a step backwards, if that makes sense.. kind of like, been there, done that, it's already known, what should I pay attention to now?) After a couple weeks I was getting sick of the constant cycling/up & down and not knowing where I was at, so I got really discouraged and stopped practicing. Lots of wishing I had never heard of stream-entry or the maps or the stages, so I could practice without being influenced by what I thought was supposed to be happening. I feel a strong pull lately to get back into things and have been reading this board a lot more. I did a bit of samatha breath exercises the other day, which was fun.. not sure how good my concentration is.. in about a 30 minute session I got to what seemed like 2nd, possibly very beginning of 3rd samatha jhana based on what I've read. (I haven't done much straight up concentration before. I basically started from scratch with insight). I still haven't gotten back into daily noting sessions yet.

Steph

RE: Why not? ( Theravadic perspective)

C C C — Thu, 08 Jul 2010 01:04:50 GMT

interesting chuck. Thanks.

RE: Why not? ( Theravadic perspective)

Jackson Wilshire — Wed, 07 Jul 2010 16:01:06 GMT

Sithum Lalinda Rajakaruna:

About disclosure, I have to say it might depend on the culture of a particular country as well. And most of the time people who openly announce their achievements are being driven by other factors (money, ego, recognition etc).

Hello Sithum,

You allude to something insightful in the above quotation that I feel has been largely overlooked in this discussion.

As a Westerner, who grew up in a post-industrial post-modern culture, I tend to favor being open and honest about attainments in this context. People with a similar cultural background as myself are inspired more often than driven to feelings of ill-will when we encounter someone who claims to have accomplished something we wish to accomplish. We are likely to ask how they did it, try it ourselves, and come to conclusions about the claimant after the fact.

In pre-modern cultures, however, the socio-religious structures are based heavily on a mythic interpretation of reality. An individual immersed in a myth-based culture is likely to have very different views about "enlightenment," or "stream-entry," etc. In this case, it really may not be the best idea to come right out and say, "Hey everyone, I'm a Sotapanna! Wanna know how I did it?!" There are perhaps more skillful ways of approaching this stuff with people of different cultural backgrounds, and I'm OK with that.

In the same way that I don't find it skillful for realized practitioners in modern or post-modern cultures to withhold information about their development in insight, I think it could be detrimental for people of pre-modern cultures to be bombarded by a modern-style approach of making outright claims. Each situation is unique, and should be approached with care. Rigidly adhering to either extreme (total openness or total withholding) is bound to hurt more than help when applied to individuals with different socio-religious backgrounds. As often said in Buddhist scenes, a middle-way is best.

~Jackson

RE: Why not? ( Theravadic perspective)

Chuck Kasmire — Wed, 07 Jul 2010 15:37:12 GMT

C C C:

I'd be really interested to hear how you got there (stream entry). Even if you think Buddhist practices are more direct and efficient, I'd still like to hear.

I don't know how I got there. Certainly wasn't something I was trying to do. What I can tell you is something about what was going on for me at that time. I started having strange experiences at night (I think Daniel might call them formations), I heard voices a couple of times as if someone was standing right next to me speaking to me (very unnerving), went through some intense depression and kind of broke through to a sort of void space between thoughts (scary) (Daniel is probably going through his check list :-). Then I ended up taking a chi gong class - though I knew nothing at the time about it nor had any past involvement or knowledge of meditation, etc - just sounded interesting to me. About 6 weeks into the class I went through stream entry - very much as described in the suttas where they talk about moving through the jhanas and then releasing. The chi gong style I was doing was a meditative type - not a movement type - and in some ways quite similar to the type of jhana practice that Thanissaro Bhikkhu teaches.

It is perplexing to me that this approach seems almost the opposite of what Daniel teaches. Maybe the answer is that you can either exit through slowing things down until they come to a stop or you can speed things up until something breaks. Not sure.

RE: Was that stream entry?

K B — Tue, 06 Jul 2010 23:11:14 GMT

Thanks DNY, glad to hear it was not a extended regression. That would be unfortunate!

Right now lots of life stuff going on, hard to focus on practice, but would be worse being back in the dark night..

RE: Was that stream entry?

Dark Night Yogi — Tue, 06 Jul 2010 14:23:15 GMT

during that time, i went from one stage to another quite quickly compared to other people i think.. I'm not sure but i think (im just guessing) the closer you are to stream entry, the faster you move from stage to stage.. and the more hours you practice a day, the faster you move.

At that time I was working part time and practicing quite a bit each day, so perhaps thats why I moved from stage to stage more quickly. I think the reason I kept falling is, aside from equanimity having everything pleasurable, making it easier
to get hooked on craving the sensations, my Chi was also very strong. It was like a rollercoaster, so i think I burned out a lot. I was pretty determined and hyped-up, paranoid of falling back, excited at the whole thing..so i was applying a lot of concentration to my meditation. so my days were really Up and down.I fell back down to 3 characteristics once or twice as well. i.e.

Monday: Strong! equanimity!
tuesday: burned out.. still equanimity.. but slowly falling down to the dark night
wednesday: regaining strength.. still in dark night
thursday: Strong! equanimity!

But i didnt fall back in the sense where it was long-term.. and climbing back up never took more than a day or two
.I think I got a bit too addicted to meditation and the reason I was burning out was because I had that "I'm close! Maybe if i do it for a couple of more hours then I'm going to get it. Better meditate than sleep right now. Go all the way!"

RE: Was that stream entry?

K B — Tue, 06 Jul 2010 04:54:16 GMT

Ok, I don't seem to have any extra abilities in meditation so I guess that wasn't "it". I wish we understood all these various unknowing experiences better. Someone should stuff Daniel into an fmri machine.

Dark night yogi, do you know why you fell back from equinimity multiple times? Were you not practicing enough or is it something else. Would like to avoid similar fate.

RE: Why not? ( Theravadic perspective)

C C C — Tue, 06 Jul 2010 02:10:25 GMT

Chuck, you say: "It is quite possible to go through the functional equivalent of stream-entry and not have any knowledge of Buddhism, noble eight fold path, etc. It has happened to many people including myself. I went through stream-entry years before I knew anything about Buddhism, Suttas, etc."

I'd be really interested to hear how you got there (stream entry). Even if you think Buddhist practices are more direct and efficient, I'd still like to hear.

RE: Was that stream entry?

K B — Mon, 05 Jul 2010 19:47:25 GMT

Thanks for the encouragement everyone.

I'm about to sit, and will resolve to attain a fruition to see if this is repeatable.

Things are still feeling somehow different. Basically more free is how I would describe it.

RE: Was that stream entry?

Bruno Loff — Mon, 05 Jul 2010 15:40:42 GMT

So KB it seems you're an inch away from stream entry

RE: Was that stream entry?

Dark Night Yogi — Mon, 05 Jul 2010 14:33:57 GMT

hey i think i remember that too!

does this usually go with the feeling of uniting with the surroundings? im not sure but i think i got that blip 5 days before. Got equanimity once, fell back to the dark night. got equanimity a second time, then i think i got that blip, then fell back to the dark night, then got equanimity the 3rd time, then that was it..

RE: Was that stream entry?

Bruno Loff — Mon, 05 Jul 2010 14:20:29 GMT

Interesting I had a "blip" event a few months before stream entry. The vibrations where horribly annoying and suddenly there was a blip and it all smoothed out. (I also thought "was that it?" )

The stream entry blip however was noticeably different, in that two seconds later there was a surge of such tremendous relief, that it really felt that something had changed (and indeed it still does). Then there was an incredible silence.

RE: Was that stream entry?

Dark Night Yogi — Mon, 05 Jul 2010 14:19:20 GMT

wow wild stuff! nice to read. i dont know

I got stream entry about aug last year. and i remember it wasnt during meditation.. itwas when i least expected it.. i think thats whats written down in the book too.. i was walking,one of those mindless automatic states, and then 3 mind moments.. one two three.. and then i didnt know what that was... when i sat down.. a few minutes passed and i felt like everything looked 'signless' meaningless.. i was staring at my desk with letters and papers, and the words became meaningless.. everything looked dead. at that point i didnt know which was stream entry. but its said everyone may experience different things i think.. also, the day before that was sunday. I tried meditating the whole day til night.. but half of that I was falling asleep.. i was even very disappointed at myself for being so sleepy. then the next day, it hit me.

keep up the practice! continuous practice ! its just around the corner!

Was that stream entry?

K B — Mon, 05 Jul 2010 11:27:48 GMT

Earlier this evening I was reading some Jack Kornfield and was inspired to strongly resolve to attain to equanimity after a prolonged dark night (at least 1 year, possibly longer)

The previous week I was meditating a lot (2+ hours a day), but stopped after feeling an excessive amount of energy building up in my head and face, and vibrations in the 1-4 hz range that were getting oppressive and dizzying. I actually had the feeling that something was going to blow, but not necessarily in a good way. Actually I was expecting an A&P, and didn't want to deal with it right now.

After my reading, I reflected on the difficulties of the last year and on the importance of embracing uncertainty and letting go. Laid down in bed for a while in a state of equanimity that I have not felt in quite some time, no longer pushing away the annoying vibrations or anything else. At some point I was exhaling and felt a discontinuity, like a little blip or pop, where the exhalation was maybe .3 to .5 seconds ahead of where it should have been, and sort of a solidification or elaboration of this state of equanimity. My first thought was "was that it?" and then my second though was "not sure, but better resolve to attain enlightenment for the benefit of myself and all beings just in case"

Right now I feel unusually calm and clear headed, without the usual existential (and other) anxiety.

I'm going to reread the chapter in MCTB right now but wanted to note this down while the experience was still fresh.

After writing this, I remembered another relevant detail, which is that I may have had an A&P-like event the previous night. I had a very bizarre dream involving body distortion and all sorts of magical feelings, and when I woke up immediately though of Daniel's dream with the witches.

RE: Why not? ( Theravadic perspective)

Chuck Kasmire — Mon, 05 Jul 2010 00:25:36 GMT

In response to your first post:
Regarding the need for people to not speak of being a stream-winner: I have read suttas where Buddha specifically encourages lay practitioners to state that they are stream-winners when that is the case. In this respect I think you are encountering a cultural view which is a different issue. In my experience, you can say it all you want and most everyone won't here a word you say :-(

how would a person know for sure whether he is actually a Stream enterer?

If you are in contact with those who have been through it - that is probably the best way. Of course, you have to have some sense that they have not deceived themselves. Short of that, I think keep practicing, have patience (years), and see what happens.

It is quite possible to go through the functional equivalent of stream-entry and not have any knowledge of Buddhism, noble eight fold path, etc. It has happened to many people including myself. I went through stream-entry years before I knew anything about Buddhism, Suttas, etc. Even so, my experience was very much like it is described in the Suttas. So a little about that:

1. "Sakkaya ditti'- Existence of a self in the Five aggregates.
2. ''Vichikichcha'- Doubtfulness of the Buddha and his teachings.
3. ''Seelabbhatha paraamaasa'' - Belief on rites and rituals.

The first three fetters:
1) Self. So you have this experience - It will without a doubt convince you that you are not this body, thoughts, etc. After this experience, you will still get caught up in all the ego stuff - patterns of behaviour - but when you reflect on your stream-entry experience (aka 'direct perception of emptiness') you will keep coming back to 'I know this isn't so' - something like that.

2) Doubt. If you have been studying the suttas then you 'get' lots about suffering and other stuff the Buddha teaches - this is as a direct result of the stream-entry experience (insight) [If you haven't studied the suttas (my situation) you still 'get' lots about suffering (but you would describe it in your own language obviously)]. You know for sure that Buddha was not making this stuff up.

3) Rites and Rituals - The issue is really more general: You no longer believe that concepts, beliefs, etc. are going to get you out of this mess. You have directly seen the nature of samsara and know that these things are the brick and mortar of your prison.

Many people feel that fetters = defilements. Fetters are what link you (your conscious awareness) to a defilement (lets say anger), producing a sense of self. An analogy is a post (anger), a horse (your awareness), and a rope (the fetter). When the rope ties the horse to the post this is like you being bound up with anger. When the rope is cut then the post may or may not be there (there may or may not be anger for example) but the horse is not defined or constrained by it (you no longer create a sense of self in relation to it). There are suttas that clarify this - one I recall likening a fetter to a rabbit snare - but trying to figure this out from the suttas can be confusing. Fetters are tricky - you cannot actually cut them yourself because before they break you are not locate them and afterwards all you know is that something has changed in you.

In the suttas, jhana combines insight and tranquillity. Together they develop a sense of dispassion for conditioned experience and the mind inclines more and more toward stillness until it releases (stream entry). This is a common theme in the Suttas and describes my own experience of stream entry. I know that Daniel and others here have had different experiences - there may be many I suppose - but what is written in the Suttas does define at least one way stream-entry is experienced.

Yogis who are unaware of buddhas teachings are also capable of going into jhanas. But are they on the noble eightfold path? (The ONLY Path to Nirvana), most certainly not.

This, to me, is dogma. I think you need to consider that Buddha, Jesus, Mohammed, etc. all said something to the equivalent of this. Lots of people have gotten killed over this one. My experience now is so different (4th path) as compared to before that I don't think they were refering to their teachings or egoic sense of self - rather their statements are more like: 'Only through this process that I have come through could anyone arrive at this experience'.

-Chuck

RE: Why not? ( Theravadic perspective)

Daniel M. Ingram — Sat, 03 Jul 2010 05:25:54 GMT

The invitation above to keep it practical, about one's practice and how to do it, what one is doing, what it has lead to, etc. is of great value.

Let's say we could agree to disagree about many points of dogma, but there are many here who could definitely and with great skill help you to get stream entry, and then you could see for yourself, and then we all could talk about something real.

I am sorry that when traditionalists come here they have such a hard time, that the dogma and conditioning and fixed beliefs interfere so much with the actual doing of the thing itself.

If you have read the Suttas, you know the monks would be sitting around telling each other how to do it, encouraging each other, and some would go off for a period and practice and return and report and they would compare notes and learn from each other. This is that sort of place.

Anyway, if the religious stuff is your thing, there is lots of that around and I think you will have no trouble finding tons of it on the internet and your community. Blind, untested faith can be a real source of stability and comfort to many people.

If you decide that this particular flavor of very rigorous, technical, empowered, team approach to actually becoming a master of the art of meditation, then please, partake of the rare treasures that this and its related communities are.

All the best,

Daniel Ingram

RE: Why not? ( Theravadic perspective)

Sithum Lalinda Rajakaruna — Sat, 19 Jun 2010 04:36:56 GMT

Dan K:

I see another advantage of not proclaiming attainments. It insulates the Buddhist community somewhat against charlatans and otherwise delusional people. With other religions it's so easy for people to say "I am an incarnation of this or that deity", and people tend to believe these sorts of claims, which can cause a lot of damage.

This is wonderful, thank you for the contribution!

RE: Why not? ( Theravadic perspective)

Dan K — Sat, 19 Jun 2010 02:11:27 GMT

Fair enough, so how would a person know for sure whether he is actually a Stream enterer?

First up, If you are not sure, then i'm afraid you are not one. We know when we have a cold, and we 'Know' when we are cured. Like wise a Sotapanna realizes that he has abandoned the following three characteristics.

1. "Sakkaya ditti'- Existence of a self in the Five aggregates.
2. ''Vichikichcha'- Doubtfulness of the Buddha and his teachings.
3. ''Seelabbhatha paraamaasa'' - Belief on rites and rituals.

There is also a common false view on the procedure of achieving this stage of enlightenment, which is the belief that Stream entry is a junction of the usual jhanic meditation process. Yogis who are unaware of buddhas teachings are also capable of going into jhanas. But are they on the noble eightfold path? (The ONLY Path to Nirvana), most certainly not. However jhanas provide the platform to contemplate on the 'Anicca', 'Dukka' and 'Anatta' nature of the Five aggregates ( Rupa, Vedana , Sanna, Sanskara, vinyana).

People around here tend to be skeptical of a lot of dogma. I think every statement that you made in the quotes, although correct by traditional Theravada standards, would be regarded with suspicion by this board's members.

RE: Why not? ( Theravadic perspective)

J Adam G — Sat, 19 Jun 2010 00:51:26 GMT

Hi, and welcome! Just think of us as Christians who believe that there was a guy named Jesus who had a lot of extremely powerful advice for how to live a good life and go to heaven (though we think the common idea of heaven is somewhat inaccurate and exaggerated in order to get people to follow his teachings -- a fault of the people who do the exaggeration, not a fault of the teachings or practices themselves). However, we don't think that people who mix the threads in their fabrics, men who lie with men as if with a woman, people who sometimes say "goddamn," or people who work on Sundays are going to suffer forever if they don't repent.

At any rate, I don't think anyone here would actually have a problem with whether or not you believed in what we consider the Theravada orthodoxy. I mean, if you're doing Buddhist meditation and you come here to ask questions about your practice, and share your experiences and answers to questions that you've found the answers to, and everyone benefits from it, how can that be anything but good? I'm sure everyone on this forum disagrees with every other member on some certain points. However, we all agree to help each other out, and it works out in the end.

RE: Why not? ( Theravadic perspective)

Sithum Lalinda Rajakaruna — Fri, 18 Jun 2010 17:34:46 GMT

Hi Yadid,

Your post hit the nail on the head! That's exactly what ive learned from the responses.

May you attain nibbana soon!

RE: Why not? ( Theravadic perspective)

Sithum Lalinda Rajakaruna — Fri, 18 Jun 2010 17:32:29 GMT

Bruno Loff:

How much is an aeon, exactly?

Dude, we're in the information age, (4 x 10^142) x 100,000 aeons go by very quickly these days...

Lol. I agree. Btw I'm feeling like a christian on an atheist forum. Anyways its all for the good of our spiritual awakening.

Gautama Buddha gave an example which could help us fathom the duration or to get an idea of how long an aeon would be.

"Imagine a cube with equal sides of 10 miles, and throwing in a mustard seed in there every 100 years. An aeon is even longer than the time it takes to fill the whole cube with mustard seeds with the above mentioned 100 year intervals between each throw''

For us humans this seems like an infinity but for Brahmas ( Especially in 'Arupa' worlds) this is quite understandable since their lifetimes are given in number of aeons as well. ( The number of aeons vary depending on the Plane of existence of the brahmas)

Hope this helped.

RE: Why not? ( Theravadic perspective)

Bruno Loff — Fri, 18 Jun 2010 17:07:40 GMT

How much is an aeon, exactly?

Dude, we're in the information age, (4 x 10^142) x 100,000 aeons go by very quickly these days...

RE: Why not? ( Theravadic perspective)

Yadid Bee — Fri, 18 Jun 2010 16:10:52 GMT

Hello Sithum,

As you may have noticed, one of the main things about this forum is that it favors personal, pragmatic, derived from personal experience, posts, rather than ones based on dogma or suttas for that matter.

So if a person on this forum says "I have attained arahatship by doing this and this and this, I can help you attain this yourself in your own experience with some practice tips" then it is favored over posts which are just quoting suttas or dogma.

This is what makes this forum special, and so far, and as far as I can tell, 99% of those who participate in this forum have gained much from this sort of attitude. So basically, since people are talking about what they believe their attainments are (stream entry and beyond) from personal experience, others are able to "get more done" in their practice.

So while I respect what you quoted that Sri-lankan monk saying, it simply doesn't apply here. The fact that people report their attainments openly here is the main strength of this forum and "we" all highly benefit from it.

RE: Why not? ( Theravadic perspective)

Sithum Lalinda Rajakaruna — Fri, 18 Jun 2010 16:03:22 GMT

Hi friends,

This is a unique place, and i feel a lot of love even through the virtual realm

Please Forgive me If i hurt feelings of anyone. I never intended to do so.

I'll follow the Ancient path of Buddha and try my best to understand the four Noble truths, within this life time.

I wish all the best on your spiritual journeys.

I won't be conducting the research on kenneth and ingram, since ultimately we believe and accept what we want to.And id rather meditate on loving kindness in that time.

''(4 x 10^142) x 100,000 aeons= is the time that took for Gautama to attain 'samma sambuddhaship' ( The noble, fully enlightened one who understand the 4 noble truths without the help of a teacher, and has the ability to teach it to others so they can be Arahants, Anagamis, Sakadagamis, Stream enterers). In this Gautama Buddhas period , the first Arahant was the 'great Kondanna'
The noble eightfold path ( The middle way) is not taught in any other religion or philosophy. This path is only revealed by a Buddha who appear in this 'loka'. People call it buddhism, which (the term) is actually dampening the meaning of this 'truthful way of living'.''- Knowledge from ancient texts.

May the triple gem ( Buddha , Dhamma , Sanga) Bless you!

RE: Why not? ( Theravadic perspective)

Nikolai S Halay — Fri, 18 Jun 2010 12:35:16 GMT

Sithum Lalinda Rajakaruna:

Hi Nikolai,

I need some time to conduct a research on the above mentioned 'Arahants'. I'll try and complete it.

Is it possible for you to share the email addresses of kenneth and ingram with me? Thanks in advance.

Hi Sithum,

I gather you may be following the traditional orthodox Theravada view on what an arhat is supposed to be and do and not supposed to be and do. You will probably whole heartedly disagree with Kenneth and Daniel's views on what an arahat is. It doesn't match up to the traditional limited action and limited emotional model of enlightenment that is adhered to in Theravada traditions.

Here are some more links to familiarize yourself with their views. I happen to agree with them from my experience of at least 1st, 2nd and now possibly 3rd path. A lot of the traditional views are a little dogmatic with threads of truth. A little exaggerated in my opinion, especially as it was monks who were doing the describing. They live lives of renunciation so are not exposing themselves to situations that may show them the traditional views are not exact. And the laypeople are attached to those views too so the monks are just going to have to go with it rather than say the truth so as not to cause people to reject them. The times have changed and we are not monks so there is no danger in saying the truth about enlightenment. More laypeople, are getting path and arahtship and no, you don't die after 7 days if you don't become a monk, that is pure dogma.

I also held all these traditional views until I got to 2nd path and now at possible 3rd (I have 3rd path symptoms, nirodha samapati, 2 jhanas after the 8th Jhana (pure abodes) and perception is different, the self is not as sticky anymore, very aloof). The traditional descriptions don't always match up.

I hope you aren't scared off by all this. This is a great open source of Dhamma here. You can PM Daniel Ingram here at the DhO. You can post a thread asking questions to Kenneth (They've already been asked there though) or send PM to him at his website. www.kennethfolk.com

http://www.interactivebuddha.com/arahats.shtml

http://kennethfolkdharma.wetpaint.com/page/What+is+an+arahat%3F+(A+letter+to+a+friend)

Metta,

nick

RE: Why not? ( Theravadic perspective)

Nikolai S Halay — Fri, 18 Jun 2010 12:15:40 GMT

C C C:

Who is this "us" you speak of? You and your guru and other sycophants?

Or do you say "us" so as to try and recruit others to your way of thinking?

Don't be sorry. Just lose the ego pal, then someone might take you seriously.

Please don't let this become a flame war here. There is no need to insult eachother at all. We all have different views. Let's express them with respect.

And I think I agree with Bruno's middle way view of bad karma to stream enterers etc. I guess it could result in someone turning away from teachings and advice on how to get it done too.

Nick

RE: Why not? ( Theravadic perspective)

Clayton James Lightfoot — Fri, 18 Jun 2010 10:05:20 GMT

I like your point of view Bruno--very middle way...

RE: Why not? ( Theravadic perspective)

Bruno Loff — Fri, 18 Jun 2010 09:00:13 GMT

"it's bad, bad karma to diss a stream enterer and above"

Although this might sound like a piece of dogma, it is really very rational if you define your terms properly. Define bad karma as "past action leading away from enlightenment," i.e., preferences you acquired that prevent you from deciding to go for enlightenment.

With this definition, if it had happened at some point that you met a self-proclaimed stream-enterer or some such, and you decide you don't like him or her at all, to the point of getting aversion to this person, and if, furthermore, you somehow associate this with his meditative attainment, then you have acquired some "bad karma."

Of course, if you think of bad karma as imoral behavior or something similar, then the statement doesn't make sense.

RE: Why not? ( Theravadic perspective)

Clayton James Lightfoot — Fri, 18 Jun 2010 06:42:43 GMT

Hey friend,

Good to hear you are interested in these matters. This whole community has built up around the principle that it is better to talk about this stuff than to hide it. First of all--you need to know that the Arahatship that Kenneth and Daniel claim is probably not consistent with your idea of what a Arahat is. Daniel talks about Arahatship as untying the final knot of perception. Kenneth talks about 4th path as being comfortable knowing that you have 'done what needs to be done.' Neither one of them will claim to have perfect conduct etc. Which is fine because the old text have a lot of eccentric Arahats who people believed were behaving in undignified ways. For me the idea of insulting a stream winner being negative karma... I don't believe that. Its your right to believe that if you want. But I follow the Kalama Sutra--I don't believe things just because some scripture says so. I investigate for myself. My advice? Work diligently along the 16 stages of insight and become a stream winner. (you might already be one--you say yourself you are unsure about weather or not one should claim it)... It helped me so much to have people tell me Honestly you can get stream entry. Go do it! I did it. You can too...

Metta,

Clayton

Edit: Buddhism is not the only way to Nirvana. I am sorry that is just not true. Once you experience Nirvana you realize that a some people from every religion have experienced it although its not that common... Buddhism is probably the quickest path at least for me... but Nirvana is not just a Buddhist thing just a Buddhist term for a human experience...

check out this article... http://www.buddhistgeeks.com/2010/06/on-enlightenment-an-interview-with-shinzen-young/

RE: Why not? ( Theravadic perspective)

C C C — Fri, 18 Jun 2010 04:56:09 GMT

RE: Why not? ( Theravadic perspective)

Sithum Lalinda Rajakaruna — Fri, 18 Jun 2010 04:41:29 GMT

@ C C C

You type with a lot of 'dvesha' in your heart. So its impossible for us to take you seriously. Sorry!

RE: Why not? ( Theravadic perspective)

Sithum Lalinda Rajakaruna — Fri, 18 Jun 2010 04:38:29 GMT

Hi Nikolai,

Thank you very much sir, for the links. I'll look into this 'mushroom factor' matter, and then share my thoughts on that later. Because I have to learn extensively about Kenneth Folk and Ingram and see whether i could identify any one (or all) of the characteristics of an arahant.

About disclosure, I have to say it might depend on the culture of a particular country as well. And most of the time people who openly announce their achievements are being driven by other factors (money, ego, recognition etc).

I need some time to conduct a research on the above mentioned 'Arahants'. I'll try and complete it.

Is it possible for you to share the email addresses of kenneth and ingram with me? Thanks in advance.

RE: Why not? ( Theravadic perspective)

C C C — Fri, 18 Jun 2010 04:03:49 GMT

This is total crud. Any person has a right to question the attainments of others. Any person projecting 'bad karma' onto someone who questions or rejects certain claims to attainments has a lot of his self wrapt up in his small egoic fears. What he is afraid of is being judged by others. Being judged by others is part of life - no one likes it, but there it is, we all do it and we all have it done to us. Sometimes those judging you are correct, sometimes they are incorrect - but who fucking cares? He who cares the most is the furthest from enlightenment. And yet this guy is shouting "I AM BETTER THAN YOU! I MEDITATED FOR 10 YEARS, AND YOU BETTER RESPECT ME FOR IT!". His attainments amount to nought. Tripe.

RE: Why not? ( Theravadic perspective)

Anon Anon — Fri, 18 Jun 2010 01:26:49 GMT

Sithum Lalinda Rajakaruna:

He said ' Ok, lets say that person is actually a stream enterer ( A person who has firmly and undoubtedly established himself on the Noble eight fold path), and he openly claims that he is a 'Sotapanna'. The public, on the receiving end of this communication will accept or reject this message,depending on his or hers personal interpretation. Those who reject and develop 'Dvesha'( Hatred) towards this Stream enterer, i.e. calling him a fraud, will gain astronomical amounts of bad karma, because it's an immense 'Akusala'( un-wholesome thought) to formulate 'Dvesha' towards a stream enterer or any other noble person (Sakadagami (Once returner), Anagami (Non- returner) and Arahant (Fully enlightened). Therefore, because of the loving kindness towards them, he would not openly announce his achievement'.

In some ways this makes sense to me, but in other ways it doesn't. Here's a counterargument. Suppose a person is a stream-enterer, and proclaims it. Some people will disbelieve this or not care about it either way, and some people will believe it or be interested in investigating it further. For the latter types of people, they may ask "how did you become a stream-enterer?", and then would receive very practical instructions on how it was done. Some of these people, hearing these instructions, would gain faith in the possibility of attaining stream-entry and go on to attain it, whereas without having ever met a person who claimed to be a stream-enterer they might not have such faith and therefore might not practice and might not ever attain stream-entry themselves. So out of concern for the wellbeing of these people, a stream-enterer would proclaim it.

This is especially true, in my opinion, in societies like the United States where Buddhism is uncommon and most people are nonreligious or Christian. In other words, societies where most people do not believe there is any such thing as stream-entry and would be surprised to hear that there are practical instructions that can be given on how to attain it. Hearing those practical instructions is a cause by which a person attains faith in the dhamma.

Perhaps things are different in Sri Lanka? Do most people there believe that there is such a thing as stream entry and that it can commonly be attained today by an everyday person who is devoted and practices with diligence?

RE: Why not? ( Theravadic perspective)

Nikolai S Halay — Thu, 17 Jun 2010 21:36:44 GMT

Hi Sithum,

Please read what is written at these links and tell us what you think. Have you heard of the mushroom factor? I mean no disrespect against the theravada tradition, good stuff there. But I whole heartedly disagree with the venerable monk you talked to. The whole "it's bad, bad karma to diss a stream enterer and above" screams of dogma to me. It's all speculation and I seem to be very anti-speculation these days...could be a 3rd path thing. Things are changing and full disclosure is the new movement. I am all for talking about enlightenment out in the open, normalizing it and making it accessible and understandable to all who are interested, no secrecy. All this out in the open like Daniel Ingram and Kenneth Folk who both came out of the closet, claimed arahatship, people got the idea that they could do it too and now they are getting it done as well. This place is so not traditional Theravada in that respect. Sorry if this ruffles anyone's feathers but I prefer for teachers to tell me that they have gotten stream entry and beyond and how they did it to crawling around in the dark a la mushroom factor style, speculating and blindly guessing as to what to do and if it is something that can really be attained. Sorry if this seems too straightforward but it is what a lot of people who come here and who go over to Kenneth Folk's site are attracted to and benefitting from. Full honest disclosure and how to get it done too, without any mysticism and unproven speculations.

http://bit.ly/c4gJpM

http://kennethfolkdharma.wetpaint.com/thread/3858629/the+anti-mushroom+culture

Nick

Why not? ( Theravadic perspective)

Sithum Lalinda Rajakaruna — Thu, 17 Jun 2010 19:13:00 GMT

Dear Followers of the Gautama Buddha,

I'm a Sri lankan Buddhist following the theravadic tradition.

I'll get straight to the point;

I once personally inquired a respected and a famous monk in Sri Lanka, on the subject of stream entry, and why real ''Stream enterers' never openly admits his achievement, Because I always wondered what's wrong in doing so.

The venerable sir responded by explaining that its for the own good of the public. At first I couldn't fathom this logic, So i asked him to explicate this matter further.

I'll try to recall his answer to the best of my ability.

He said ' Ok, lets say that person is actually a stream enterer ( A person who has firmly and undoubtedly established himself on the Noble eight fold path), and he openly claims that he is a 'Sotapanna'. The public, on the receiving end of this communication
will accept or reject this message,depending on his or hers personal interpretation. Those who reject and develop 'Dvesha'( Hatred) towards this Stream enterer, i.e. calling him a fraud, will gain astronomical amounts of bad karma, because it's an immense 'Akusala'( un-wholesome thought) to formulate 'Dvesha' towards a stream enterer or any other noble person (Sakadagami (Once returner), Anagami (Non- returner) and Arahant (Fully enlightened). Therefore, because of the loving kindness towards them, he would not openly announce his achievement'.

Fair enough, so how would a person know for sure whether he is actually a Stream enterer?

First up, If you are not sure, then i'm afraid you are not one. We know when we have a cold, and we 'Know' when we are cured. Like wise a Sotapanna realizes that he has abandoned the following three characteristics.

1. "Sakkaya ditti'- Existence of a self in the Five aggregates.
2. ''Vichikichcha'- Doubtfulness of the Buddha and his teachings.
3. ''Seelabbhatha paraamaasa'' - Belief on rites and rituals.

There is also a common false view on the procedure of achieving this stage of enlightenment, which is the belief that Stream entry is a junction of the usual jhanic meditation process. Yogis who are unaware of buddhas teachings are also capable of going into jhanas. But are they on the noble eightfold path? (The ONLY Path to Nirvana), most certainly not. However jhanas provide the platform to contemplate on the 'Anicca', 'Dukka' and 'Anatta' nature of the Five aggregates ( Rupa, Vedana , Sanna, Sanskara, vinyana).

More information later. Please join in.

May the noble triple gem bless you!

RE: stream entry, what do you think?

Anthony D — Wed, 26 May 2010 17:17:17 GMT

Hey Thomas,

I just read this thread and it sounds very familiar. I went through a similar experience and I am just now trying to get out of a 4 month dark night.

How has it been going? I am curious on your progress since your story seems very simmilar to mine.

Let us know!

-Anthony

Krishnamurti,Buddha,Concepts,Actual Freedom

benucci benassi — Tue, 27 Apr 2010 06:35:43 GMT

Hello to all in the forum,

I want to make a discussion about the similarities of the above subjects in the title.

Jiddu Krishnamurti a philosopher I like very much has in his conceptual message
a lot of criticism against traditions and says truth is a pathless land.
He mentions that to find truth, you have to be free of all conditioning in the mind, which is
the history of humanity in itself. So to create anything new in this world, the mind has to be empty
of ideas from the past of human history. Im sure a lot know the other things he is talking about in his books
and speeches. For the free ebooks go to:

http://www.messagefrommasters.com/Ebooks/Jiddu-Krishnamurti-Books.htm

He is very eager about an education for children, where learning occurs together with the adult and the child is
free to inquire into truth, without buying blind into superimposed conditioned thoughts from their parents.

This reminds me of a conceptual message of Jesus: ``You have to be like a child to come into the paradise of god

Of course this is just a conceptual comparison!

Also: `The Kingdom of God is within you`' reminds me a lot on Krishnamurtis concern to find truth and fearless joy within!

Buddha seems to be enlightened ( which is just a word) gives ways to conform ( 8 Fold Path) to find the truth and a religion was formed out of it, which creates comparison and separation. But I think, but dont know, that Buddha is non dogmatic, the teaching is just misinterpreted by many?

The same with Christian religion, it creates separation,like every other form of conformity.

There are just human beings, every other belief people have is just a belief and out of this belief comes conflict. To see this clearly without the mind, that your thought created this division is the non conceptual experience Krishnamurti talks about.

In my interpretation( belief) people like Jesus, Krishnamurti and maybe Buddha all have the same message, which is not a thought as thought creates conflict.

My question is for all people searching for Buddhahood or enlightenment.

What is the difference between enlightenment and the joy within?
Personally I experienced the same as Krishnamurti did, but I am really not sure what to make
out of enlightenment? And Actual Freedom aswell? What similarities to Krishnamurtis teachings
are there in all these concepts? Zen philosophy of zazen is truth in itself also reflects Jiddus message or as Life in itself is truth?
There is also a big conceptual conflict on the art of living if you compare Krishnamurtis teachings and buddhist
practices, so I am eager to know from people, who have non conceptual experiences maybe from buddhist practices,
if there is a difference of unconditioning the mind which leads to the non conceptual experience of who you are and coming back with no divisive conceptual opinions in mind and experiences like nirvana or stream entry and all these things?
Krishnamurti speaks of fear and loneliness as facts, who have to be looked at, that the experience of who you are can happen.
I heard in Nirvana its kind of the same, so I am eager to know opinions about that!
Also the practice of looking just deeply to bare sensate experience is maybe also a form of unconditioning the mind?
My question is, unrelated which way or no way one goes, if the mind stops, because it inself has discovered is limits and one sees actual reality, what is there more to discover? Is nirvana any different? Very interested in the answers!

Thank You!

RE: Meditation on Death/Impermanence

Daniel M. Ingram — Fri, 16 Apr 2010 07:43:38 GMT

Yeah, I really got a lot out of those same ghats with very similar impressions, though I remember thinking that burning human flesh smelled eerily like Bar-B-Q...

I also agree, Thanks Be to Mother India, which, while obviously a technicolor catastrophe, is completely amazing in ways I never would have imagined until I went there.

RE: Meditation on Death/Impermanence

ratanajothi - — Wed, 14 Apr 2010 10:25:02 GMT

The deaths of my much loved grandparents at a formative age (I was between ages 9 and 15) left me with an indelible sense of impermanence.

Thanks for the post. It's a timely reminder.

Meditation on Death/Impermanence

J C — Wed, 14 Apr 2010 09:34:41 GMT

I might as well spill this latest one out here too. Am just emerging from the state of emotional shock and awe from a recent trip to Varanasi. We stood at the burning ghats, principally, Manikarnika Ghat, three times we did this, generally for a one hour meditation each time, standing meditating/witnessing. They bring the body of their family member wrapped in cloth, build a bed to the funeral pyre, lay the wrapped body on it, and add more wood. A very dense hard wood that burns very hot and clean. There is little or no detectable odor to the smoke. It burns very hot and is like a furnace blast on us as we stand as close as we could be allowed to stand out of respect at maybe 10 or 14 yards away. Periodically, the same man takes a long wooden pole and turns a leg or piece of wood into the hottest part of the fire. At one point, sillouetted against the Ganges below, I could make out the upper torso and head being picked up on the long wooden pole and re-placed into the densest hotest part of the inferno. We stayed on the breath throughout this. No mosquitoes due to the intense heat. There were five fires, each consuming a corpse. Family members awaited nearby each of the fires that reached ten feet into the night sky. They say it takes two hours or so for total cremation. They build one fire on a bed of still furiously hot coals from the last, twenty four hours a day.

This was a very compelling meditation. I can see why it is called the supreme meditation. The emotional aftershocks are now only now dying back for my nervous system, after a month back from the trip. It was useful medicine for this old man to see my fate, to feel it and weep for what is inevitable. For the ultimate attainment, death and utter extinction. To leave my wife behind to mourn. This has been an incredibly useful trip spiritually. Make no mistake about it, the Door of Impermanence is a noble lesson. Dark Night Despair is inevitable with this one, even for the advanced meditator. A sobering cup. So add this to your repertoire too my friends if you need to enter through that Door as I did. But who among us doesn't? Thank God for India.
unedited,
J

RE: stream entry, what do you think?

Thomas Allen Vitale — Fri, 02 Apr 2010 02:24:19 GMT

Hey, I am in the dark night and it isn't that bad so far. I stopped practicing for a while and have just started up again.

RE: stream entry, what do you think?

Michael Zaurov — Mon, 29 Mar 2010 23:21:12 GMT

Thomas, how's your practice going ?

RE: What if ?

Sister Khema — Thu, 18 Mar 2010 22:52:48 GMT

Dhamma Greetings Mike, Ian, et al.

I'm new here and not sure how things work much, but, I wanted to throw in a couple of comments about this. I liked what Mike had to say about "...recommending AjSumedho on the 4NTruths) and how he said "suffering exists, it has causes, it can cease and there is a path" -..."
Aj Sumedho did well not to change the 4 noble Truths and I thank him for that one.

Also about deeply seeing and understanding, the Three Characteristics, and the Impersonal Process of Dependent Origination. This is VERY important. And let's not forget you cannot get there, seeing them clearly, without fully understanding the 4 Noble truths ( which are used in 3 ways, as summary, as tools for investigation of practice, and as solutions for everyday life too....) Priceless!

My own effort has been to
1. Understand what the Meditation was for when the Buddha did it... perhaps to develop a doorway to peace for all people to be able to pass through and be much happier in life? To take us to a place in everyday life where we can lovingly accept the present moment exactly the way it is, no matter what it is, and then deal with almost anything that comes up? To experience life to the fullest, living in the highest level of balance and contentment? This is what's nice to attain to IMHO and worth the time and effort. If the practice can't be transferred into daily life then why are we doing it?

2. What if ... is a really good question too, ian. it's a question I asked when i began a fulltime search and practice 10 years back.
What if the Commentary was off in it's description of the meditation? What if the instructions were not the same as they are in the texts? how could we get to the attainments the Buddha reached then? Did you know there is a sub-sommentary that was written for just that reason of discussion? It isn't translated yet into English though. I had to go through a Burmese monk who was a Bhivamsa to help me figure things out on many points.

...What if Samatha and vipassana were not originally separated until modern times? They seem to be consistently yoked together in the pali texts and they do operate differently when this approach is used. So what if that part was off in the commnetary?

Why did the Progress to Insight path change the 9 insights in the texts to 16? i can't figure that out..

Anyway, Ian, the What if question is a real trip and can keep you going for a long, long time.

Metta and smiles.
Sister Khema

3. Abhidhamma began way after the buddha's death, so, what if we left that out and tried to see clearly without thinking about that.... ?

4.

RE: Help needed

tarin greco — Thu, 11 Mar 2010 17:05:32 GMT

hi jenny,

jenny v birkett:

Hi everyone,
I'm pretty confused about the stage of dissolution though to be honest. In Goenka's tradition AT's seem to think it can happen repeatedly whereas in the Mahasi tradition my teacher said it only happens once. Any ideas anyone?

the territory in question (the culmination of the stage of arising and passing away and the shift into dissolution - frequently known on the dharma overground as 'the arising & passing event') can happen repeatedly, but generally happens in a big and noticeable way only either once per path or once per period of serious practice.

on another note, the experience(s) you describe in your original post sound far more like a&p than stream entry. how you handled what came after that would determine whether or not i would agree with the tibetan nun you mention, as while drinking beer and eating meat can be a pretty good way to ground down during a rough dark night, it's also potentially a momentum breaker.

tarin

RE: Help needed

jenny v birkett — Thu, 11 Mar 2010 13:14:24 GMT

Hi everyone,
Thanks for your posts. I have read both Practical Insight Meditation and Progress of Insight David, and my experiences did seem in accordance with the books - although it's pretty hard to tell and I'm very hesitant of making any definate claims. I do however have absolutely no doubt that there is no self as I saw how dependant origination works, directly from my own first hand experience.
I asked my teacher about breaking sila and he said it was possible for stream enterers to break their sila - although they wouldn't necessarily want to. Other monks and nuns I have spoken to however have stated that stream enterers wouldn't. It seems to depend on who you talk to.
I'm pretty confused about the stage of dissolution though to be honest. In Goenka's tradition AT's seem to think it can happen repeatedly whereas in the Mahasi tradition my teacher said it only happens once. Any ideas anyone?

RE: Help needed

J Adam G — Wed, 10 Mar 2010 01:46:15 GMT

Trent H.:

All points with which I totally agree. Adler's thoughts about motivation, while certainly more on track than those of his contempororary Freud, can't come close to explaining all human behavior. Knowledge gained from neuroscientific and psychological study since Adler's time has definitely shown a much clearer picture. This is why I added the qualifier "theoretically" to my statement of Adler's belief about motivation. Perhaps I should have made it clearer that I wasn't claiming that his theory was all-inclusive. I did, however, choose to use that framework for the examples I used. I think it's one valid way of looking at what happens when a person who desires fulfilling and meaningful social relationships and interactions realizes that some of the things that they were doing in those interactions were actually undermining their efforts.

I also think it's one valid way of explaining how, having had some mundane-level insight as a side-effect of trying to do fundamental high-dharma insight practices, I (being the example used) saw that a behavior that was contrary to the Buddhist precepts was actually unskillful much of the time. The fact that the behavior may break a rule written down over 2000 years ago for followers of a religion I don't belong to is of no concern. (No offense to anyone who practices Buddhism as a religion -- I just think that its meditation practices, and much of its psychology and philosophy are great, but I'd never pass as a "good Buddhist.")

What IS of concern is that the precepts seem to have been written not only for the good of social order or just because "that's what good people do," but also because many of the behaviors they describe can be causes of suffering in a mundane sense, and obstruction to serious dharma practice. So, if the increased mindfulness that results from doing heavy duty insight practice also causes a person to see the negative effects of breaking a certain precept, which is a part of their mundane life, it can make them not want to break that precept (often) anymore.

I think this is one way of explaining some of the statements that "such and such level of enlightenment makes you unable to do these bad things." I don't believe those statements for a second -- but I do believe that the process in the above two paragraphs can and do occur. I also think that reasonable descriptions of how enlightened people often choose more skillful behaviors could be magnified and exaggerated into the dreadful limited emotional and behavioral range enlightenment models, which may explain one of the many reasons that such models exist today.

RE: Help needed

Trent H. — Wed, 10 Mar 2010 00:18:03 GMT

J Adam G:

The psychotherapist Alfred Adler had a term for when you make someone aware of the bad/painful effects of something they're doing -- he called it "spitting in their soup." All behaviors (according to this framework) occur because a person at some level thinks that the behavior will fill some need of theirs.

Behavioral motivation is far too complex to responsibly shoe-horn into a framework like this. For instance, the attention-getting person would not necessarily have to stop anything, nor necessarily have to feel bad about irritating the others; nor does the attention-getting necessarily have to have anything to do with filling a need. This whole precepts nonsense resides in the realm of morality, beliefs, and emotional identification. It has very little to do with "Insight" of the Buddhist variety, although it is important to look at on its own, or in well developed texts/discussions. The reason I mention this is because neurotic behavior (example: "THC feels good but it makes me feel bad because it goes against the precepts") does not get one anywhere in these matters. On the contrary, sagacious rational thinking-- which is the hall mark of the human brain-- just might do the trick. Furthermore, the loss of the 'ego' (who 'I' think 'I' am) does not have any direct correlation to what one thinks or feels about things from a moral standpoint, unless one has been scripted into such behavior.

The reason I mention this is because if you want something done in regard to behavior or otherwise, you should just do it. If you want to be a kind person, then do that or figure out how to do that. Don't "wait for stream entry" just because some guy with a hard-to-pronounce name says it'll make it easier to be a "good person" (whatever that is). I don't mean to imply that anyone is stating that explicitly, but it is vitally important that one thinks for oneself in an honest fashion about what will lead to what in regard to these matters.

Regards,
Trent

RE: Help needed

J Adam G — Tue, 09 Mar 2010 21:47:57 GMT

I can really resonate with that experience, both from things I've learned in meditation and from more mundane psychological insights. The psychotherapist Alfred Adler had a term for when you make someone aware of the bad/painful effects of something they're doing -- he called it "spitting in their soup." All behaviors (according to this framework) occur because a person at some level thinks that the behavior will fill some need of theirs.

But if a person becomes aware that, for example, their attention-getting behaviors actually irritate everyone around them, it's like the "food" they were eating (attention) to fill that need (love/social interaction) becomes less tasteful. You can still eat the soup even though it has spit in it, just like you can still strive for attention even though now it's been made distasteful by your awareness that it irritates people.

To relate this to the 5th precept, you can still use an intoxicant even though you realize what unpleasant effects it has on your mind. But it's less desirable. Having observed with some mindfulness what the effects of marijuana are on my mind, I can see how unskillful it is to get high if my actual desire is to be happy. THC's euphoria is short-lived, in the times that it even produces euphoria instead of anxiety. Then the "relaxation" commonly believed to be a form of serenity is seen to actually be a rather dukkha-rich state of dysmotivation made of mostly mind moments of unpleasant vedana combined with neither-unpleasant-nor-pleasant vedana. The euphoria is a minor component of this mind state compared to the bland and aversive states.

Having seen this doesn't prevent me from occasionally making the aforementioned choice. However, the reduction in usage is no doubt dramatic ever since the erroneous thought that "getting high is fun and very enjoyable" was clearly seen through. (Or at least, "more clearly seen through" than before. I'm sure stream entry and above would reveal way more about that than I've seen so far.)

RE: Help needed

Nikolai S Halay — Tue, 09 Mar 2010 12:18:01 GMT

David C Johnson:

Upon the realization occurring Nibbana then occurs and you will never break the precepts again.
David

THis traditional view of never breaking the precepts again just doesn't really hold up for me. I mean I followed them to the best of my ability for years, at least the main 5. But I also went through long patches where I tripped over the 5th one, no intoxicants. I got 1st path at the beginning of this year, no doubt. But I also now have the occasional alcoholic drink with friends in the spirit of participation. I never take it to getting drunk because it gets weird as I am hyper sensitive to what it is doing to the mind and body when alcohol is in the system. But one drink now and then doesn't seem to inhibit my progress. I think abstaining from intoxicants can help you on the path no doubt but now that I've got to this stage all ideas of being overly anal about precepts has dissapeared. I feel so much more open to experience but at the same time I know the limits of what wont harm me.

I love the other 4 precepts so I observe them naturally anyway. But when I got 1st path I wondered about the traditional view of not being able to break precepts and experimented with lying. Basically, one can still lie. But the truth is I just don't want to. The truth in any situaton seems to be what I am pulled to so maybe that holds up tot he traditional view. But if I remember correctly, the Buddha never mentions people who have attained paths automatically not taking intoxicants. But I could be wrong.

RE: Help needed

Trent H. — Wed, 03 Mar 2010 22:56:52 GMT

jenny v birkett:

The main reason why I want to know if I am a stream enterer Trent, is it would be nice to know that the end is in sight and that I won't go down to a lower realm in the next life. As for reduction in suffering, there has been a deepening in equanimity towards conditions - but this could have happened as a natural by product of my meditation practise anyway

Hello,

As far as diagnosing whether or not there was entry, there are many criteria that can be looked at. I think that most of them or perhaps all of them show up in MCTB. You may want to give that a critical read.

What "end is in sight" if stream entry occurred? And what is your goal; what are you searching for or trying to achieve?

As far as "lower realms" are concerned, you've got nothing to worry about there. There is no such thing as a "lower realm" outside of the impassioned human imagination. Death for a body is oblivion of consciousness, just like deep sleep, and that is that. Reflecting personally, I was not here (or anywhere) prior to birth, just like I will not be here (or anywhere) after death.

Regards,
Trent

RE: Help needed

jenny v birkett — Wed, 03 Mar 2010 21:43:17 GMT

Hi Susan,
I've actually never tried any Tibetan practices. I was practising a Mahasi retreat at the time. I went to the nun to glean some info on the chakras. I read on the internet that the tibetans go more into this so I thought she might be able to shed some more knowledge on the subject...

RE: Help needed

Susan Law — Wed, 03 Mar 2010 18:17:54 GMT

jenny v birkett:

Hi,
[...snip...]
Thanks for the info on Lung Susan. I have read a bit about it on the internet. It makes me more confused actually because in body scanning traditions, the goal seems to be to dissolve the body whereas the Tibetans view this dissolving as an imbalance of the air element. It seems very contradictory. Either way it's nice to be given free license to go down to the pub!

Hi Jenny -
My guess is that if experiences at least superficially like what you describe had occurred as an effect of a Tibetan method of practice they might well indicate imbalance. Perhaps that's what your nun friend is basing her response on. The methods are really different, and produce very different results at different stages of the path - even though the ultimate goal is the same.

Susan

RE: Help needed

jenny v birkett — Wed, 03 Mar 2010 12:10:58 GMT

Hi,
Thanks both of you for responding. The main reason why I want to know if I am a stream enterer Trent, is it would be nice to know that the end is in sight and that I won't go down to a lower realm in the next life. As for reduction in suffering, there has been a deepening in equanimity towards conditions - but this could have happened as a natural by product of my meditation practise anyway.
Thanks for the info on Lung Susan. I have read a bit about it on the internet. It makes me more confused actually because in body scanning traditions, the goal seems to be to dissolve the body whereas the Tibetans view this dissolving as an imbalance of the air element. It seems very contradictory. Either way it's nice to be given free license to go down to the pub!

RE: Help needed

Susan Law — Wed, 03 Mar 2010 04:21:41 GMT

I can't comment at all on the experiences you describe - however, maybe I can help a bit with the Tibetan nun's advice. When she says you have "an imbalence of lung" and could benefit from drinking beer and eating meat, she's not referring to the organs we call lungs. In Tibetan medicine, lung (rLung) is breath itself. In Wikipedia, a Tibetan doctor defines lung as follows:

...it is a subtle flow of energy and out of the five elements (air, fire, water, earth and space) it is most closely connected with air. However it is not simply the air which we breathe or the wind in our stomachs, it goes much deeper than that. rLung is like a horse and the mind is the rider, if there is something wrong with the horse the rider will not be able to ride properly. Its description is that it is rough, light, cool, thin, hard, movable. The general function of rLung is to help growth, movement of the body, exhalation and inhalation and to aid the function of mind, speech and body. rLung helps to separate in our stomachs what we eat into nutrients and waste products. However its most important function is to carry the movements of mind, speech and body.

This is a different system of understanding the mind and body - and also of understanding meditation. I believe that eating meat and maybe even drinking alcohol are sometimes considered grounding in this system. You will probably get more helpful advice from within the tradition you're practicing.

RE: Help needed

Trent H. — Wed, 03 Mar 2010 02:10:28 GMT

Hi Jenny,

If you have specific questions you're looking for feedback on, you may find it beneficial to post those. Below are a few thoughts to contemplate, questions to ask yourself, and opinions on what you wrote.

As far as stream entry goes, did you notice a difference in suffering after the 'maybe event' in question? And regardless of whether it was stream entry or not, does the path ahead of you change based on whether or not stream entry occurred? In other words: why does it matter one way or another? The answer to this should be relatively obvious if you have specific reasons for meditating / something you are searching for / etc; and if you haven't defined or realized your intent with these matters, perhaps that is something to contemplate.

Your lungs are most likely fine. If you are worried about them, you may want to see a doctor rather than worrying about what came from the nun's silly imagination.

There is no 'spiritual' problem that directly stems from the ingestion of anything whatsoever, unless you believe there is, which is to say that you may hold yourself back based on that belief if it exists. There may be common sense health risks associated with said item of ingestion, or other medical risks based on the idiosyncrasies of your body in relation to said item. Either way, if you have no specific bodily problem with eating meat or consuming alcohol your personal growth won't be stalled by enjoying steak and beer.

Regards,
Trent

Help needed

jenny v birkett — Tue, 02 Mar 2010 22:49:13 GMT

I have been practising meditation for 10 years now and done many retreats. 3 years ago I felt my crown chakra open up. For the same period of time I have felt my body dissolve into subatomic particles. I have been able to feel the quality of those particles - for example if anger arises I will feel intense heat filling all of those subatomic particles in a whoosh throughout my whole body. (It's primarily body scanning techniques I have practised which seem to bring up this kind of experience more than other meditation techniques.) I sat a long retreat over the summer and on the second day I felt many other chakras open - my heart chakra (this has been happening on and off for a couple of years) opening at the throat, in between the eyes and at the lower spine. I had pleasant visions of Buddha's, indescribably glorious patterns, incredible colours and unpleasant visions of bodies decaying and skeletons. I then had repeated experiences of what seemed to be matter and not matter. It's very difficult to explain but the only metaphor I can use is that when you're a kid you make those books. You know - the ones of a running man. You draw on a page with him raising his leg, on the next page you draw his leg raising a bit higher, the next a bit higher and so on. You flip the book really quickly and it looks like the man is running. It was like that. I would be doing walking meditation and the whole process seemed to disintegrate into a series of moments with space in between the moments like when you flip through the book. Or I would be lying in bed and again it would disintegrate into a series of moments. Or I would be sitting and again there would be phenomena - the sitting and awareness and then complete absence but happening so quickly and sequentially. Phenomena / non phenomena, one after the other. My teacher at the time said it was a stream entry experience but I have my doubts. I have drunk alchohol since then (not vast amounts - but some,) and from what I have read stream enterers keep their sila very pure. It also was not the cosmic, unification of consciousness that I was looking for / hoping for. I have spoken to a tibetan nun - I didn't mention the stream entry thing but told her about the chakras and body disolving and she told me I had an imbalence of lung? And need to drink beer and eat meat. I'm pretty confused to be honest and would welcome any thoughts from more experienced meditators.
Many thanks.

RE: stream entry, what do you think?

Daniel M. Ingram — Sun, 07 Feb 2010 18:07:14 GMT

Hey,

Mind and Body tends to be neat, some degree of simple, clear, profound, possibly unitive, and nice. Just about everyone likes it. Thoughts are suddenly out there, naturally, obviously. These are general guidelines.

However, post A&P you seem to describe dark stuff, feeling stuck, not sleeping, not caring for yourself, feeling dislocated, etc.

That sounds about standard for Dark Night to me. Why do you think it is M&B?

RE: stream entry, what do you think?

Thomas Allen Vitale — Sun, 07 Feb 2010 17:25:31 GMT

Hey, can someone help me. I'm feeling kind of out of it. I thought I passed A&P, and went through the knot, but now I'm stuck in mind and body.

Also all this stuff is making me kind of out of it. I think I pushed it tol hard and it's going all too fast. I feel like I have too much energy and can't sleep at all. It's not channeling very well and I feel really dislocated. I'm not taking very good care of myself and haven't been eating well, etc...

RE: Out of Gratitude

Pavel O. — Sat, 06 Feb 2010 13:26:05 GMT

Constance: Thank you for you help!

J Adam G: I strongly believe that anyone attempting to use drugs to make progress on the path of insight would have to be insane. Unlike one friend of mine who crossed the A&P while under the effect of LSD (perhaps this is more common?), I have not had any such experiences on drugs. What happened to me is that after the taking of drugs, (next day to a week later), an insight stage arose out of nowhere (A&P or Dark Night). MDMA seems to have played a role in the arrival of A&P 2 or 3 times, while psilocybin took me straight to the Dark Night. I do have to make two further observations though, first, most people I know do not react to MDMA (or other drugs) the way I do (I get intensely present and sharp, while a lot of people lose themselves in the extasy). Second, getting into insight through drugs rather than meditation does not give one the benefit of learning the skills that will then allow him/her to finish the whole damn thing (in my case, no chance of moving though the cycle beyond the dark night until I started meditating). I really, really screwed myself up in the past 5 years and while I feel that I have benefited from the whole thing, it has been very unpleasant a lot of the time (although it appears that there is no lasting damage).

As for what the drugs actually do, in relation to the insight cycle, it appears to me that specific drugs will create experiences that are very similar, or share certain characteristics, with certain insight stages (perhaps samatha jhanas? - I have only run into those in insight and by mistake /by solidifying/ and as such am not capable of making the comparison). I know of a lot of people who have had a Dark Night-like episode on psychedelics, some people get the A&P on strong doses of psychedelics. For me, MDMA (from what I can remember, not having taken anything in a quite a while now) is somehow similar to equanimity (in the texture, sharpness and spaciousness). Other drugs I have taken share certain other characteristics with other stages.

Daniel: Gratitude!

RE: stream entry, what do you think?

Jackson Wilshire — Sat, 06 Feb 2010 07:32:24 GMT

I second Daniel's advice. This all sounds very A&P like to me.

Daniel M. Ingram:

Keep going...

Word.

~Jackson

RE: Out of Gratitude

Daniel M. Ingram — Sat, 06 Feb 2010 07:23:37 GMT

Yeah, Gratitude! It is one of the very best of the emotions, I think.

I am very grateful to this place also. I have nearly no local dharma community, and to this place is my refuge and support also, and it greatly enhances my life and sense of doing something fun and useful in the world and being a part of something good.

Thanks to the many, many people who read, participate, interact, strive, answer, question, and support this place in various ways, the tech support people, Chris Stavros at Omegabit for hosting it, and all the people who helped set it up, such as Vince Horn, Lee Moore, and all the rest.

Thanks to all the people who helped make MCTB what it is, everyone who taught me and let me experiment by trying to teach them, to all the people who pissed me off and made me passionate and angry enough to write it, to everyone who helped run the places I practiced, to my parents, to the people I have been in relationships with and had to deal with dharma stuff, to Duncan Barford, Ian Blakely, Oliver Rathbone, and all the people at Aeon who published MCTB, and to everyone else who helped and added richness and texture to the thing along the way.

Yeah, Gratitude!

RE: stream entry, what do you think?

Daniel M. Ingram — Sat, 06 Feb 2010 07:16:06 GMT

Accessing that level of territory, the more powersy end of the thing, can make evaluating where people are more complex, though it is obviously much more interesting.

Getting back to fundamentals: see my chapter in MCTB on Was that Emptiness?

It has all the criteria for stream entry, which should involve repeat fruitions, cycling natually 4-15th ñanas, etc.

See how it settles or practice hard or do what feels right. Let us know how it holds up to time and further development if you wish.

Traveling out of body, flying, bright lights, whooooozhs, things being sped up, and all that still make me think A&P, just A&P done with a relatively heavy powersy vibe and very strong concentration without much attention to blasting any and all experiences to pieces with insight practice.

Keep going...

RE: stream entry, what do you think?

Thomas Allen Vitale — Sat, 06 Feb 2010 06:22:26 GMT

Okay, I just got a fruition. Holy smokes, there is no end to how fast you can perceive sensations....I never would have thought this possible..

RE: stream entry, what do you think?

Thomas Allen Vitale — Sat, 06 Feb 2010 03:11:48 GMT

I think I may have attained to stream-entry. I created a few universes, and accidentally destroyed them and felt bad. I traveled down into my subconscious through the dark night, but it was effortless. I guess karma decided I had enough of that already. I went through some kind of black hole, then a wormhole, had a long sort of relationship chat with the watcher behind me (that may now actually be the new I), came out the otherside went through some realm with universes in bubbles floating around and then flew straight for the light. I flew and flew and there was a brief blip event which I assume may have been conformity? I then went through whooooozh in my brain that sped up my processing. It was just like the A&P event, I flew all the way up to the bright light, but my perceptual abilities were not good enough to note out the impermanence surrounding it. I then began to fall back and back, and it all happened automatically. However, I haven't obtained "fruition". Should I meditate to equinimity (which I assume I already passed) and try to wait for it?

RE: A very long letter on my recent stream-entry

mjk 10 93 — Fri, 05 Feb 2010 00:05:21 GMT

I have some thoughts on this but they are drifting off-topic so I am starting a new thread here.

RE: Out of Gratitude

J Adam G — Thu, 04 Feb 2010 21:55:15 GMT

That's an amazing story! I'm glad you shared it here. I think everyone is (or can be) very grateful for MCTB and the DhO. It's nice for it to actually be articulated every once in a while, because gratitude is one of the bases for having the motivation to keep practicing.

It's interesting that you had your 1st A&P event with MDMA. While I certainly worry about people hearing about drug use giving insight results and trying to replicate those results, I also think the stories need to be told. Sometimes, a substance/plant plays a role in the path, and that's not something that we seem to have a lot of information about. I mean, there's The Psychedelic Experience, which fills a pretty unique niche, but this kind of thing seems more valuable. It's not a theoretical attempt to fit hallucinogenic experiences into the Tibetan Book of the Dead's scheme; it's a report of the actual insight results that you had from using MDMA.

I hope you continue to have great results with your path.

RE: A very long letter on my recent stream-entry

Bruno Loff — Thu, 04 Feb 2010 20:42:34 GMT

I suspect that the answer to Manz A's question is YES, "yoga is superior to pure insight" in the sense that it "is a more pleasant path to tread".

This is not a judgement, nor is it a claim that Yoga is "the true way" or "the best way", and that was not what Manz A asked, either. But I have observed that:

(1) My canonical reference for yoga (Yogani's "Advanced Yoga Practices" system) describe the "path of yoga" as something which does NOT have to be unpleasant, but in fact becomes more and more pleasant as the practice deepens; however my canonical reference for insight practice (Daniel's MCTB ) describes progress as something that necessarily goes trough difficult cycles over and over again until arhatship.
(2) People in the AYP community tend to describe their experience in the same terms as the AYP reference, which leads me to believe that this is a natural result of practicing AYP style.
(3) There is an aspect of "energetic development", in particular "development of the sexual function" aka kundalini, which is not present in insight practice. I can tell you from personal experience that this is very, very pleasant

My own experience with AYP in the last month seems to go in the same direction. There are local ups and downs, but things seem to be getting globally better every week. I feel that yoga is what I should be doing right now, However,
(a) I am speaking from after stream-entry which I owe to insight practice;
(b) stream-entry effectively cured my depression (assuming that the results will hold).
As far as I know, Yoga could have taken years to get me to this point, rather than the few months plus two ten-day retreats that it took with insight practice. Years deep in depression would certainly NOT have been pleasant, even if yoga was slowly and steadily getting me out of it. So who knows?!

RE: A very long letter on my recent stream-entry

Chuck Kasmire — Thu, 04 Feb 2010 18:11:57 GMT

An important element in these sorts of discussions is aspiration. What motivates you to carry out the practices that you have selected? For myself, it has been 'to know the truth - whatever it takes'. If your practice is like a vehicle then your aspiration is like the direction that vehicle is pointed. So when we discuss what kind of practice leads where, which is more 'direct', etc. - we have to consider what the practitioners goal was as well. My sense is that this has much greater impact than the practice itself.

-Chuck

RE: Out of Gratitude

Constance Casey — Thu, 04 Feb 2010 18:02:37 GMT

"I am not at all certain, neither do I hugely invest in caring, what exactly has happened in the past 5 years, perhaps more importantly, in the past 6 months. Analyzing what is already done seems much less sensible than moving on, with certainty that enlightenment is achievable and that it is an incredibly good idea to pursue it/realize it."

Pavel:

Wonderful!

So nice to just be with now, with today, as it is, and with that pure and simple desire to know your true nature.
Much gratitude back at ya, for your practice and for sharing this. I feel the dharma is light, and as we relax more and open more, -well, you'll see how ongoing it all is.

with metta, Constance

RE: A very long letter on my recent stream-entry

Jackson Wilshire — Thu, 04 Feb 2010 17:04:29 GMT

Daniel M. Ingram:

Everyone is different in terms of exactly what combinations of practices or single techniques will work best for them at any given time, and as the experiment can only be done one way at any moment, no one can know exactly what is or would have been optimal.

Bingo!

During different phases of my practice, I was SURE that one particular style of practice or map of experience was the "true way" or whatever. Over time it has become increasingly apparent just how incredibly malleable experience (i.e. reality) is. I honestly can't tell you how many times I've changed my tune, because I've lost count at this point.

It can be difficult to refrain from making blanket statements like "this practice is more practical/useful/advanced/etc. than all these other practices," when in reality it just happens to be the way that experience is unfolding for the yogi at the present time. Therefore, stating the facts without making value judgments is a more skillful way to go about this stuff, in my humble opinion.

At the same time, such temporary shifts in model preference are par for the course. It doesn't need to be restricted, per se, but it helps to view the process from a wider, more inclusive perspective whenever possible.

My $0.02.

~Jackson
"Lying is a science, truth a paradox."