help with noting some aspects of no-self and suffering

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Beoman Claudiu Dragon Emu Fire Golem, modified 13 Years ago at 10/31/10 8:57 PM
Created 13 Years ago at 10/31/10 8:57 PM

help with noting some aspects of no-self and suffering

Posts: 2227 Join Date: 10/27/10 Recent Posts
I had been having trouble noting the impermanence of some things... I could note things that passed and changed quickly, like my breath and my pulse, but some things still seemed permanent, like the feeling of my body on the floor, for example. I was recently able to ask in person about this, though, and they said something like: "Observe the permanent-seeming sensation. wait for any tiny aspect of it to change - slightly lighter, slightly harder, different shape, color, etc., notice any small change. then maybe after doing that enough your sense of permanence of that sensation will also change."

Pretty sound advice! Already started doing it with some effect. I now realize I had questions about the other aspects which I did not have the presence of mind to ask...

No-self: I can see how any sensation, "I" don't have to "do" anything for it to arise and pass, e.g. pulse, head hurting, aches, etc. Even when I shift my position from pain, if i do it subconsciously or semi-consciously, i can note it as a kind of reaction. but i have trouble noticing the no-self of a sensation if I initiate an action... like before doing an action, I sometimes note "intention to X," but then 'I' still have to 'do' X. Any tips on seeing no-self in "self-initiated" actions?

Suffering: I can clearly see suffering of painful sensations - they hurt and "I" think it would be better if they weren't being felt. I can also see unsatisfactoriness of good things - there's the desire to get them, the actual non-satisfaction when they're gotten, or the fading satisfaction if it did satisfy (that's pretty related to impermanence eh?). But with neutral sensations, like my body on the floor, I'm at a loss. It's not really suffering or unsatisfactory.. it's kind of there. Trying to frame it as a "painful/unsatisfactory to attribute that sensation to a self" question, it isn't, really.. it's just kind of there. any tips here?

Thanks in advance. This really is a great site.. I just read the Reformed slacker's guide and the part about noting mental suffering and other aspects of the I really got me in tune to that. I had a strange feeling of no-self where I was re-playing a conversation in my head as I always do, then I noted my mind doing that, then I had a feeling like "ah it's ok to do that, happens to everyone", then I noted that, then it's like hmm, that's a strange way to look at one's self.. as if what I had just thought was not part of my self (which I guess it wasn't since the self doesn't exist as a separate entity eh?).

I also realized kind of the "point" of noting meditation.. or meditation in general. it's to just notice what is actually there and become in tune with that. i think that added some enthusiasm to my practice.
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tarin greco, modified 13 Years ago at 11/1/10 8:23 AM
Created 13 Years ago at 11/1/10 8:23 AM

RE: help with noting some aspects of no-self and suffering

Posts: 658 Join Date: 5/14/09 Recent Posts
Beoman Beo Beoman:

No-self: I can see how any sensation, "I" don't have to "do" anything for it to arise and pass, e.g. pulse, head hurting, aches, etc. Even when I shift my position from pain, if i do it subconsciously or semi-consciously, i can note it as a kind of reaction. but i have trouble noticing the no-self of a sensation if I initiate an action... like before doing an action, I sometimes note "intention to X," but then 'I' still have to 'do' X. Any tips on seeing no-self in "self-initiated" actions?

yes; see that every step of the process is happening on it's own. in the process you describe above, what is it that you are calling 'i' that arises after 'intention to x'? what is the doing of x? those things are happening of their own accord just as the intention is.


Beoman Beo Beoman:

Suffering: I can clearly see suffering of painful sensations - they hurt and "I" think it would be better if they weren't being felt. I can also see unsatisfactoriness of good things - there's the desire to get them, the actual non-satisfaction when they're gotten, or the fading satisfaction if it did satisfy (that's pretty related to impermanence eh?). But with neutral sensations, like my body on the floor, I'm at a loss. It's not really suffering or unsatisfactory.. it's kind of there. Trying to frame it as a "painful/unsatisfactory to attribute that sensation to a self" question, it isn't, really.. it's just kind of there. any tips here?

try framing it it 'tension' maybe.

suffering characteristic is tricky, as the mind is generally disinclined to stay on it. sometimes that inclination can be overridden by certain causes and conditions, such as an intent to keep coming back to it again and again and again, or a high-level equanimity about the whole affair (which may even sometimes forget that the characteristic being observed with a high level of clarity is 'suffering'). if neither this intent can be mustered nor is this equanimity already present, you may do well to forget about suffering characteristic while observing neutral sensations, as what is meant by the suffering in that observation is subtle, obscure, and bound up in the very act of observing (and the relationship between the observed and what seems to be observing it). if you are intent on observing suffering characteristic in neutral experience, however, notice the act of observing itself, and what may appear to be a separation between what you're observing (some sensation) and the sense where it seems to be observed from.

regarding the suffering characteristic in pleasurable experience: the non-satisfaction or fading satisfaction that comes afterwards is not the only place the characteristic can be found - it is in the very desire to have. the desire has a certain visceral quality and can be rightly seen to be an urge. that momentary experience, which happens on its own, is also suffering.


Beoman Beo Beoman:

I also realized kind of the "point" of noting meditation.. or meditation in general. it's to just notice what is actually there and become in tune with that. i think that added some enthusiasm to my practice.


it's helpful to realise this.

tarin
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Daniel M Ingram, modified 13 Years ago at 11/1/10 11:42 PM
Created 13 Years ago at 11/1/10 11:42 PM

RE: help with noting some aspects of no-self and suffering

Posts: 3268 Join Date: 4/20/09 Recent Posts
Tarin's advice is solid.

A few more things: start with what you can perceive, don't go for the hard stuff early on: it will come. The point is not to see the most difficult and subtle and stubborn thing first, though if you really want to try, go for it, but I would advise building up to it: starting with easy sensations, things you can see change, anything pulsing, anything shifting, anything happening on its own, but impermanence is the easiest to see by far for most, as it interesting, neutral most of the time, and engaging.

Once you can see your objects well (early vipassana jhanas) then seeing the background and Subject stuff is easier (third and fourth vipassana jhanas), and the progression from objects to core processes that really seem to be you is natural and need not be forced.

D
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Beoman Claudiu Dragon Emu Fire Golem, modified 13 Years ago at 11/3/10 8:58 AM
Created 13 Years ago at 11/3/10 8:58 AM

RE: help with noting some aspects of no-self and suffering

Posts: 2227 Join Date: 10/27/10 Recent Posts
Thanks for the advice, both of you. I'll have to try a few sessions focusing on suffering and no-self just to see what happens - I think by noting I focus mostly on impermanence.

Daniel M. Ingram:
A few more things: start with what you can perceive, don't go for the hard stuff early on: it will come. The point is not to see the most difficult and subtle and stubborn thing first, though if you really want to try, go for it, but I would advise building up to it: starting with easy sensations, things you can see change, anything pulsing, anything shifting, anything happening on its own, but impermanence is the easiest to see by far for most, as it interesting, neutral most of the time, and engaging.

Once you can see your objects well (early vipassana jhanas) then seeing the background and Subject stuff is easier (third and fourth vipassana jhanas), and the progression from objects to core processes that really seem to be you is natural and need not be forced.


This reminds me of what I heard a Buddhist nun say recently.. she said "We have all these ideas and conceptions of what should happen - maps, stages, paths, should I feel angry?, should I tune into this? Realize that the starting point is simply where you are at the current moment. Just go from there."

So I think the advices here agree. I think this has helped clarify something for me.. before I think I used to think that "if I just sit here and note all the changes I see, it'll get me to where I have to go." In a sense, that's true, but I think I missed the point of shifting focus. Like you were saying, start with easy sensations, that is, with those I can clearly see. But after some time of doing this, I'll start noticing other things, at which point I should focus on those (background and Subject stuff, as you say?).
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Daniel M Ingram, modified 13 Years ago at 11/4/10 6:37 PM
Created 13 Years ago at 11/4/10 6:37 PM

RE: help with noting some aspects of no-self and suffering

Posts: 3268 Join Date: 4/20/09 Recent Posts
Again, the progression is natural, just stay with what is presenting strongly and go from there, no need to anticipate too far ahead: do the practices, moments continue to unfold as they should. Read about the progression of the vipassana jhanas or the section on 11. Equanimity for more on how this happens just by paying attention.

D

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