Hello all. Wondering if I've moved on to a new set of stages. I'll give latest report at the end. Until then, since I think I have, any particular advice on what to do now? I've read Daniel's suggestions here and it makes sense. I've taken to doing that, pretty much - observe the 3 Chars in everything. I've started noting again instead of sitting and doing nothing as when trying to Review 1st path.

From this thread:



Can anybody link to that? Would be curious to read it. Also anybody's experience from 1st to 2nd would also be helpful.

Now I feel I mostly need more concentration and meditation time and I'll get there soon enough. Also are there any criteria one can read on having gotten a new path? I didn't even realize Stream Entry until a few hours or maybe a day later, and then I had some clear ones like powerful concentration and Fruitions, but this time around I won't know if it's 1st vs 2nd path Fruitions.

Here's latest sit... read if you're curious, and any particular advice if I seem to be doing something unproductive that I missed would be helpful.

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Agh feel like was just really close to 2nd path fruition.. [[NOTE: Or this was Review and I've gotten myself so worked up I don't lead to the Fruitions anymore. Or some 2nd path stages and some 1st path stages.]]

Did candle flame, got to 4th samatha jhana (equanimous one) I think while looking at the flame with eyes open. With eyes closed the red dot eventually disappeared but I kept looking at the visual field, started noting, then I was calm... I noticed the calm.. noticed annoying sensation between my two lower teeth.. then i tuned into the fact that it seems as if there is a sensation, then the mental categorization of it into good/bad/neutral/ignore/etc.. and that the sensation itself is always fine as it is. but then the mental categorization is also fine as it is... so any annoying thing comes from a reaction to a non-annoying thing where the reaction is also not annoying, so why is it annoying at all? something to do with no-self... I think this got me into Equanimity as I was then really calm. then I started noticing how it seems poorly perceived sensations are the cause of the feeling of "self". LIke I felt disappointment, but then i realized it was not me, and the thinking of it was also not me.. something like that. Then I got into that really really tense pre-1st-path-fruition state, and i was getting very excited so my heart started beating like crazy, and I tried noting the excitement and noting the sense of self in-between the sensations (and thus that the sense of self also isn't me) but I couldn't push through to Fruition, so I fell back. then I tried going in again, this time realizing the desire to push through also was a sensation, also not-me, etc... there was a particular mind trick I figured out how to do to 'force' a 1st path fruition, and I was trying to do that (without really noting it), but it didn't get me there.

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Oh and random after-events:

While lying in bed and letting my mind wander to sleep I was suddenly jolted back to the present moment, got into that pre-Fruition state, and think I had a Fruition, followed by a noticeable but small bliss wave. Doubt I got 2nd path as I don't feel very different.

I fell asleep and got into that strange state where I'm asleep but half-awake and I can't move. Then I either had, or imagined I had, Fruition after Fruition and I couldn't stop. Reality did feel chunky between the moments the brain was active! It got pretty bad, though. There's always some energy pressure in my head, on the roof of my mouth, and it grew to way intense levels. I feel like it "broke through" a barrier, or at least got more intense than before, and I thought I had started bleeding from the roof of my mouth. I got very agitated and tried moving around to wake myself up and make sure I was OK. Needless to say I was fine, but still quite scary.

For Stream-Enterers: A Different Way of Doing 2nd Path

i'm writing this for stream-enterers, to suggest an alternate way of
doing 2nd path; alternate, that is, to what daniel ingram writes about
in 'mastering the core teachings of the buddha'. keep in mind as you
read this that the evidence behind this suggestion is mostly based on
the experiences of one person, me. i should also point out that in no
way am i knocking what worked so well for me for getting 1st path. i
would probably still be wandering around aimlessly, alternating
between getting oddly neurotic about my crap and spacing out into
equanimity and the formless strata, if it weren't for daniel, his
book, mahasi, and the maps. however, my rapid success at finishing 2nd
path makes me think this is worth putting out there because the method
i employed was so markedly different from how daniel portrays 2nd path
practice that i think other people should know about this alternative
as a possibility.

daniel recommends doing 2nd path like he recommends doing 1st path:
note note note, rise through the cycles, let it sync up, pop a
fruition. i did not do this. in fact, although i'd already dropped
into the next mind-and-body, i thought it might be better to not start
another path so soon and made no effort to cross the a&p. i went about
my daily life, making little or no time for formal practice, and
electing instead to, purely out of curiosity and fascination, watch
inclusively and in particular to see through the sensations that make
up the notions of 'inclusive', 'watching', and 'centre' whenever it
occurred to me to do so, or whenever it just happened on its own
(which, upon reflection, happened pretty often). the times i noticed
the cycles at all, i noticed them in a very basic and uninterested
way, made no effort to investigate them or the sensations that make
them up, and only recognised when i'd broken into a new stage after a
day or two had already passed. in retrospect, the a&p was inspiring
and energised, the dark night sucked, and equanimity was equanimity..
but i wouldn't have been able to tell you that while it was going on
(except by two days into the dark night, i knew it sucked).

here is the suggestion:
if, in working on 2nd path, you find yourself scrambling up the
insight ladder just because you think you're supposed to, but are not
sure why you're doing this, it might work for you to focus on seeing
the quality of the sensations here and now in an open and inclusive
way, keeping a clear eye on the so-called background to see if
anything's moving around back here. ignore everything that is not
obviously the clear and direct answer of paying attention here and
now.

it didn't occur to me, for the most part, to try to move from one
stage to another, but while i was in the dark night, i got concerned
about making progress for a day or two. but when it occurred to me
that i was only doing that because of pain and worry, i resolved to
stop running away and promptly did. if you tune your eye in to the
here and now, all that stuff will just rush by like water going down
the drain. just keep re-tuning your eye to this, knowing that none of
it is the solution. scary, mildly yet deeply painful, but try to run
this process in the back of your mind again and again while you're
going about your day. that's all i did, and less than a week after
crossing the new a&p, i got a fruition that left the background
shattered thoroughly and in an entirely new way. i had no idea i was
that close. it took a few hours to be sure i'd really finished the
path (but that still beat the few days it took to be sure about the
first one), and when i'd answered that question to my own
satisfaction, the certainty did not come from having had another
fruition, but from the clear difference in my baseline (read: right
now) perception and the diminished level of solidity in it.

so, once again:

see the sensations here and now in an open and inclusive way, paying
careful attention to the totality of experience as well as what seems
to be 'outside' that totality. don't get caught up about what things
mean and if you do, don't give a shit that you're caught up cos you're
not really, you just think you are. just keep paying attention in such
a way that nothing will take it away. the cycles may, and probably
will, happen, but ignore them and basically just practise as if you're
already in equanimity regardless of what shows up.

you don't have to wait until going for 3rd path to do this if it makes
sense to you to do this here and now.

tarin greco (theprisonergreco)

Many thanks! Interesting part about "pretend you're in Equanimity." I felt that way a bit... it's like, why cycle if I can start observing the observing right off? Makes me more sure that I was close that sit.. and indeed what led to no fruition (be it 1st or 2nd path) was that the excitement caused me to stop observing the inclusiveness and stuff.

Also interesting that Daniel Ingram didn't get 2nd path on the cushion, but while contemplating such things out in daily life.

Has anyone tried this besides tarin? In any case, gives me something to do off the cushion, and doesn't contradict insight practice (which Actualism seems to do a bit, as that seems to go "figure out what is causing you to not enjoy this moment, and then enjoy the moment!" instead of "break down what causes you to be unhappy, and the sensations making up the enjoyment, etc.")

Can I get a clarification on what is meant by "background" here?

in summary: practise as if you're already in third path, if that is what makes sense for you to do.

Where can I read on how to practice in third path? Or is it just exactly what you stated? MCTB is thin on details (unless I forgot some parts). I dug this up:



Seems like the stuff here is more about the 3 chars of totality and background and the watcher vs. 3 chars of every sensation in daily life.

what is meant by 'background' is not the thoughts, not the mental movements, not the occurrences, not the sensations of sight, sound, touch, smell, or taste. in short: what is meant by 'background' is the sensations that imply 'background'.

understanding this, attend, steady and alert, to the background. no more need to force vipassana - the insight will happen by itself.

tarin

Neat this might have done the trick (and noticing "center", and "me", and "watching"). Will post new thread later.

the sensations that imply totality and background and the watcher, et cetera, are fundamentally no different from any other sensation in daily life. further, any sensation's particular characteristics (i.e. the loudness of a sound, the heaviness of a pressure) are themselves sensations exhibiting the three characteristics; those particular characteristics do not occur in a way or a place that is beyond the three characteristics. there is no space outside of sensations from which sensations can be observed; there is no realm in which sensations exist.

tarin

Yeah I think I actually realize that now, which makes me think last night I had the 2nd path fruition. Before I would sit, notice the totality of experience, and think "well there's totality, it's pretty stable... seems like one thing." Or I would notice the watcher and think "there's the watcher... seems stable." Now (starting from right after the potential Fruition), when I try to notice all of experience in totality, my mind is just drawn to how it's made up of a bunch of other things, and it doesn't seem like one thing at all. also this isn't clear yet but i think i realize that the sense of the watcher is also just a sensation and not different / special compared to the others. I wouldn't call it the background "shattering", more like it's shown to be nothing special.

hmm i wish there was a better litmus test for identifying the path you're on... i guess it doesn't matter if the insights are there, but it would help with knowing how to proceed. for example i don't want to draw my attention to the separateness of totality / totality, as i was doing before, as i don't want to go onto a new path yet if I did get 2nd , but i would want to do that if i didn't.

description of before/after?



how is right now compared to before you completed (what you think was) another path?

tarin

Second path is a strange thing. Sometimes I think that what is called second path here at DhO and sister sites is only identified as such because the Theravada has four stages instead of three. There is a shift, but if stream entry was hard to put into words, second path is even more so. Even the Theravada ten fetter model describes it as the beginning of the fetter-breaking completed with third path, while first and fourth each break their fetters completely (Anapanasati Sutta, MN118).

That said, I like Duncan's "Milestones of Meditation" a lot, in conjunction with Daniel's "Simple Model". Both contain plenty of practice advice.

Then there are Kenneth's criteria for Anagami, which include "can acces Nirodha Samapatti"and "can access the Pure Land Jhanas".

Cheers,
Florian

Certainly, here is what I wrote:

-----------------------------------

took tarin's advice and tried noticing watching, inclusiveness, and
'center' all thru the day. sat down to do candle meditation, but closed eyes
shortly after, no red dot appeared, and i kept going as usual.

while at work i think was A&P, was very energetic and such.
dark night i didnt notice. then equanimity as i sat here.

this time was calmer than last time [where I felt I was close, my
heart started beating liked crazy, etc]. . i just noted center, "me", awareness, inclusiveness,
background when I could, etc.

again felt frustratingly close. a few build-ups and come-downs. i think at
some point i entered one of the formless realm as vision opened up. (i now
think this happened earlier). at one point everything got much brighter and
whiter, maybe was 6th jhana? not important.

at some point i start noticing impermanence of the 'me'. Like i'll be looking,
and i'll think me is what's watching, but then me changes to be something
watching that, at which point if notice it changes again, etc. I got pretty good
at keeping track of that "me" changing.

had to go to bathroom so i get up and go. try to note awareness
during this time, or me, or watching. as i sit back down i think "where was I? ah yes, watching..."

then i had what might have been 2nd path fruition. It was a brief flickering with eyes open,
my body twitching a little bit... no bliss wave... unsure whether i was twitching or was fruition.
i tried remembering if i was there during the flickering, but i couldn't tell.

i kept my eyes open, tried to keep noting the same things. the background was very shaking
at this point - might have been a jhana. I also got the strange feeling I got after stream entry,
being like "is that it? i don't know, I feel the same..." but something felt different.

I closed my eyes, and i went back to A&P as far as i can tell. lots of white
flickering, etc. then it calmed down - dissolution. then some murky stuff, then
back to what i thought was equanimity, where I was before. sounds like a Review eh?

I also didn't perceive "totality" the same way as I did before.
before I would think "inclusiveness" or "totality" like while sitting in the bathroom,
and i'd perceive everything i was feeling as one "moment". experience would actually
feel total and solid when i tuned into it.

Now, when I try to do this i notice it is actually made up of lots of little moments. i can't get the
whole totality as one moment anymore - whenever i try to think it, i just notice all the little things
making up the totality, with a feeling of "totality" on top, but separate from the rest. makes me think 2nd path.

didn't get another Fruition yet, time to sleep, but will see how it goes.

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Ah I also practiced the jhanas again, and found I could get into more solid 5th - 7th jhanas, and could
actually get 8th jhana. 5th being: wide open space, but this time i also imagined it around my body,
and it expanded there. 6th being less refined than 5th but filled with 'consciousness-stuff' i suppose.
7th the whole thing just turns "flat" and it's as if nothing is there. 8th then takes the 7th and makes
it a bit "murky"... that's really the best description, like a fog or something.



I don't feel particularly different if not thinking about anything, same as after 1st path. however, trying
to experience totality is different, as i said before. it also is easier to perceive 'watching', 'center',
or 'the watcher' as just another sensation. again i am unsatisfied, as now it just seems like there is
an even more refined sense of "me" still out there, beyond all the stuff i'm currently perceiving. i take
it that won't go away until Arahatship though?

some of the best advice i got post-second path came from chuck kasmire, a few of whose tips i will take the liberty of re-printing here as they may be applicable to your situation:



tarin

That really rings true to me.



These sound fun. They actually sound similar to tips for cultivating a PCE. Could you go into details about differences between them? To get a PCE, would I just reflect on "being happy in this moment," which might involve looking at those things, or looking at other things like thoughts for reasons that I'm not happy and to remove those causes, vs. this which is just looking at everything in a receptive manner?

I actually was trying to get a PCE as I figured it might be a good time, and I did get into a very happy state this morning. Maybe EE is what it was? it felt like mind & body, or like rolling on MDMA. Basically I was in a store and everything was really pleasant, pretty-looking, the sunlight reflecting off the oranges, the tables, my hands, etc. Still a sense of "I", though. I was thinking "am I happy in this moment?" I had some stray thoughts, decided they weren't worth it, looked past, etc. Then in the store I tried taking it all in, looking for the "totality" i was looking at to get 2nd path, and then everything started looking pleasant. I wonder if it actually was triggering serotonin release to my brain as it was a little reminiscent of coming up on MDMA... but anyway, would that be helpful for 3rd path, or for PCE, or both?

Also I may as well ask here. I feel like even upon hitting Arahat I won't be satisfied, as there will still be unpleasant emotions, even if I am detached from them. This is based mostly on you and Daniel's dissatisfaction with Arahatship and Daniel's decision to move on to AF (as I understand he did?) after 7 years of Arahatship. I want to give AF a shot, or at least PCEs, and that is looking like my eventual goal. I understand you became an Arahat before becoming Actually Free. In your opinion, do you think that would be easier than trying to get Actual Freedom from where I'm at now, be it 1st or 2nd path? By easier I mean... eventually taking less time =). For example, going through 27 full insight cycles doesn't appeal so much to me, but it also seems like you and others got Arahat relatively quickly after Stream Entry? And after Arahat you were "in a much better position to become actually free" (quoting but paraphrasing from you).

I'm gonna mail you privately about this here lest we make arses of ourselves....

haha, CC me

since you still see both 'small self' and 'other', it wouldn't be sagacious (keenly discerning) to expect you to pay attention directly to non-duality. hence, attend to both the notions of 'small self' and 'other', and see through their solidity even further - all the way through. then you'll be in emptiness real-time.



i've actually always thought that chuck's (samatha-)vipassana style makes particular use of pce-like qualities, relative to other most other methods of vipassana (which are either more dry or more bliss state-altered).



the instruction of reflecting on and thinking about why you're not happy is for getting back to feeling good (back to your working baseline) when you've fallen below it. therefore, it will not going to get you into a pce unless you're already close and need to go just a little bit further.

the instruction for getting into a pce more directly is remembering what the pce is like and just finding it here and now.. though it's more kind of like stumbling into it all over again.

'how am i experiencing this moment of being alive?'



there are pleasant things to being alive here and now. aren't they interesting to investigate? they're interesting to investigate. any quality of experience is an object of investigation. any object can be made use of as a suitable object of investigation.

as a stream-enterer - or a sakadagami (second path-winner), whichever the case may be - consider not worrying about what things to investigate and investigating the objects (and subjects) to which your attention is drawn.



you can rightfully arrive to the same conclusion from the accounts of literally everyone who has announced themselves an arahat on the dharma overground (or related forums, such as kfd and openenlightenment); by all accounts there are still unpleasant feelings (and most will acknowledge those feelings as emotions).



i think that if you're concerned with how much time it will take, nothing you do will make a difference as to how long it will take.

without that concern however.. anything is possible.

tarin

Hmm in that case I will have to investigate the feeling of worrying about how much time it will take, and stop buying into it, as I seemed to be when writing this post. No reason to turn off investigation for any sensation, right?