Hi folks,

Further to my own searching over the last two years...or decades I suppose, and the information that I've found here and elsewhere related to the stages of insight, I had been grappling with understanding my earlier, unguided practice and experiences.

In trying to make sense of them, and perhaps ascribe meaning, I've come up with the attached table/graph/map. Disclosure: I don't really know if it's useful for anything. I'd be very interested in knowing if anyone sees any value in having it presented this way. I doubt that it could be used in terms of any planning, but it's helped me a bit in figuring out where I've been.

I think that a big part of my own confusion has been the overlap of concentration and insight practices. There are discussions of dual practice, and how one's practice can shift between the two, and references to the vipassana jhanas.

A few features:
1. The samatha states are along the left (the Y axis)
2. The stages of insight are across the bottom (the X axis)
3. The letters across the top, and the numbers along the right are for identifying a specific square, a la Battleship.
4. The coloured sections represent the areas of the map where the corresponding Samatha and Vipassana Jhana's "overlap".

A few key spots:
Square A1 - would be most people, who have neither concentration or insight skills
Column A - as you move upward, would be the path of someone progressing in concentration, but without insight
Row 1 - as you move to the right, would be the path of someone doing "dry" insight, without benefit of concentration skills
The coloured area - would, I suspect, be where the majority of us are travelling, hopefully trending up and to the right!

I doubt that I'm the first person to present things this way, but I haven't seen it anywhere else yet in my own reading. But then again, maybe that's because its not all that useful...? But I thought I'd share, and see if anyone can see any potential benefits. I'd be equally open to suggestions and criticisms, as that too would represent learning for me.

Regards,
Patrick

That's good thanks.

Can you somehow include which steps are permanent, and which involve re-cycling?

Oo neat map. NS is a bit off, though - you can't be in any cycle during NS as there's just nothing there... well i guess that's true for Fruition too, but if you fruition in a samatha jhana you stay in that samatha jhana.

then gets more confusing on later paths, and when entire cycles seem to be contained within cycles..

would be interesting to try to get all the squares, though dnno if it would be useful

Hi folks,

Thanks for the compliments and feedback! I've modified the original a bit...

1. I've extended the Jhana colourings into the A'th column and 1'st row, to show that Jhana of one type is possible without the other type (ie. - Samatha v. Vipasanna)
2. I've removed several of the immaterial squares, as they don't really have a "place" along the insight hierarchy (or do they?)
3. Likewise, I've reduced NS to one square, in the progress of concentration, but have placed it on the far right, at Q10, to show that it can only be attained post-enlightenment (or is this incorrect?)
4. I've added shades of grey to the immaterial Jhana squares...don't they look inviting now?

In response to some of the questions:
- At what points along the insight path is a level of progress permanent? I seem to recall that there is no "back-sliding" at the A&P, at Equanimity, and at Fruition/Review. Is that correct?
- The question about cycling is an interesting one, and I wasn't sure how to represent a cycle on this chart, other than to continue whatever mapping you do on a second/third/fourther/etc. copy of the chart. Still, I suppose the question is: when you achieve fruition at the right side of the chart, at what point(s) on the left might your next cycle begin?

Again, not sure where this is going overall, but it's a fun exercise, and hopefully facilitates some learning for others, as it has for me.

Hi again,

For anyone that wants to begin modifying the table on their own, I have attached the Word (2003) version of the chart for your use. The structure of the table has gotten a bit messy, so if you're thinking of adding rows or columns, watch out for strange results!

Patrick

Hi gang,

Just as a final offering, I incorporated a few more details into the diagram:
- columns on the right for each path
- moved NS to the columns for paths 3 & 4, over which there is some debate I know
- added vertical lines to the left of the A&P, Change of Lineage and the Paths, to show points from which there is no "back-sliding" (are these all of them?)

As always, I welcome corrections, suggestions or comments.

Cheers!
Patrick

There are serious and complex problems with your graph.

I hardly know where to start.

First big things:

Review cycles from 4th ñana to Fruition, and thus encompasses whatever jhanas happen during that time, whereas you would seem to imply it was part of the 4th jhana.

Fruition is its own thing and has nothing to do with jhana or anything else.

Your graph would imply things to those not paying a lot of attention such as people going through the A&P in the 4th jhana: this is not what happens.

Immaterial jhanas may happen in Equanimity, and, in fact, I will claim that to get to Fruition you have to have at least some taste of them, even if they are not full on or even noticed (such as happening with eyes open). It is very common to have formless experiences in Equanimity at least briefly if not for long periods.

The backsliding line: people may cross the A&P only to fall back all the way to below Mind and Body in terms of meditative ability, not that things might not be changed.

People who have passed beyond Review into new territory may go all the way down to the bottom of that new territory, starting below Mind and Body at the level of that next path.

There are other problems that may be based on the way I am interpreting it or other confusing aspects of it.

I'll write more when I have more time.

Thanks for your efforts, but this needs serious revision.

Daniel

Hello Daniel,

Thanks for taking the time to provide feedback!

I'm certainly not claiming any mastery or attainment here, and my intention was never to mislead anyone (which I hope I haven't), but to seek help in determining:

a. If I had captured things accurately (thus the refinements)
and
b. If such a graph would even have any practical use(s)

I'm currently working through your book a third time, and the graph idea grabbed hold of me part-way through, and I couldn't wait to share. As you say though, I was clearly off the mark in a number of areas. Perhaps it isn't even practical to describe the path in a 2D format like this?

Patrick

Hi folks,

I'm back from the drawing board!

First of all, thanks to Daniel for clearing up some of my misunderstandings. In spite of it being in MCTB in black and white (but now with more yellow highlighting), I had failed to fully understand the nature of cycling. Daniel's push sent me in the right direction to find the correct information, and answer my question.

Also, to explain the colour scheme a bit better, obviously there are overlap issues, so I took the following approach: if (for example) you are "on" an orange square, you are at least in some manner of second jhana, whether samatha, vipassana, or perhaps both. Also, using Word, regrettably there is no way to blend the boundaries a bit, meaning that the edges are a bit harder than they perhaps ought to appear.

With this in mind, I'm hoping that this version of the table is a bit closer to usefully/accurately representing things...

Thanks,
Patrick

Better, better...

there aren't any vipassana jhanas 5-8, so one could take those out.

i don't know much about stages 12-14 except they dont seem that important.. like they aren't really stages, you don't hang out in them.. it's just what happens when getting a new path.

also adding the paths onto the right doesnt make so much sense . if you want to fit the paths into all this...

then i'd have one copy of the chart, and all that is labeled as "1st path", up to the fruition. review still part of 1st path.
then i'd draw an arrow out of the review phase of 1st path into another copy of the graph, labeled 2nd path, into the 0th or 1st nyana of that graph. the 2nd graph will be basically a copy of the 1st. you can also draw arrows from middle of 2nd graph into review of 1st graph as that can happen too.

then id draw an arrow from 2nd graph review into another graph, but this time more like a chain of graphs, or something. unsure here.

then i'd draw another arrow from the 3rd path graph/chain review into a giant clusterf**k of copies of the graphs, some embedded within one another (like an entire graph inside each cycle of a larger graph), all kind of random and confusing and pointing in different directions.

not sure what good analogy would be for 4th path... the whole graph would ideally detach from your computer screen and float away, or something.

Thanks Beoman,

FYI, I've been thinking about those 3D printers for a while now, maybe they would help with a 4'th path print-out?

Thanks for the feedback. I'm curious about one thing though. You suggest that vipassana jhana's 5-8 don't exist, but in Chapter 25 of MCTB, Daniel mentions Bill Hamilton's VJ model, which does seem to identify them. Is this a subjective thing, or is there some subtlety of meaning here that I have missed (wouldn't be the first time!)?

Many thanks,
Patrick

Oh i see what you mean. i guess 5th-8th vipassana jhana in that case would be analogous to 5th-8th samatha jhana - they are extensions of the 4th. i havent been able to distinguish between a more samatha or more vipassana 5th-8th jhana like i can with 1st-4th though.

also about all this, im not sure how , for example, the Fear stage of 2nd path is different from Fear stage of 1st... i don't think you are 'going' anywhere by doing all this. that is, the sense of progression and stuff is an illusion, similar to the way time is an illusion. what you're doing is just bending your perception in different ways, and in a well-mapped-out way, and using that to gain insight... but i'm not sure where i'm going with this

Hello Beoman,

Thanks again. I agree with you about the ultimate utility of the chart, a concern I had expressed in my initial post. Still, it's been a useful thought exercise (thus the Subject: tag) for me, as well as a learning experience. Hopefully I'm not alone in that regard...

Patrick