This guy, Ciaran Healy, founded a hardcore direct-pointing community: Ruthless Truth.

This is not your garden-variety nondual "You can't become what you already are" comfortable invitation to recline in laurelled ignorance - this is like MCTB for the immediate/direct method. Jed McKenna guzzling liquid nitrogen because of the overclocking. You know, that kind of place. They also tend to curse a lot, and I mean really quite frequently, in their pointing, which may or may not appeal to you, though recently they started experimenting with a less verbally monotonous, Socratic Method as well. (Cursing is fucking hard in English, there being basically only two shitty words)

The forum is currently closed for a week, to allow the people participating there to, well, post elsewhere and spread the good news. I'm a bit cynical about such missionary efforts, what with my experience with the various schisms resulting in DhO 1.0, DhO 2.0, KFD, the Dharma Refugees, and so on. But they certainly have enormous momentum and are cranking out realized people at an amazing pace (140+ in a few months), according to their claims.

It will be interesting to see how (and whether at all) to line up their realization with the models popular here.

Even if you're not into direct pointing, read Ciaran's account (the first link, when you click on his name). It's a good read, and a familiar story for those familiar with such stories, with a few interesting twists.

Have fun, practice well, in whatever paradigm best shatters your delusions, and be sure to read Ciaran's account: if nothing else, I bet it will inspire a lot of confidence (and maybe a bit of competitive urge) that it can be done and is being done, right now as your're reading this, by ordinary people who don't even know a lot about maps and models and ancient books of wisdom, and couldn't care less about spirituality.

Cheers,
Florian

very interesting, thanks for sharing! this convo in particular was fun to read. will have to look around.

also am interested in how their definitions line up with others. they have 3 ranks on the forum: unenlightened, enlightened, and liberator (if you helped enlighten someone else). but they also talk about deepening the state once you're there..

Yeah. That one's included in the long "thunder&sunshine" post I linked.

"it's not hiding. It's just not there".

Cheers,
Florian

reading through it.. the stink of enlightenment is strong with those =P. that is quite the success rate, though.. wonder where they'll go from their newly-enlightened states... seems 'no suffering' isnt necessarily the goal (at least for this 1 member):

Hi, guys! Hardcore pointing works. Ready to cross the Gateless Gate?

Look up my blog post and see how:


Crossing the Gateless Gate. ARE YOU READY?

Send me an email.

This guy wins for "World's angriest Bodhisattva":

http://www.ruthlesstruth.com/arena/viewtopic.php?f=5&t=421#p6180

hehe.. that territory does seem to be about the place where the most intense/effortful bodhisattva-ing goes on - after you're enlightened, before you're done. they've just like taken it to the extreme

You, guys, will stare truth in the face and end your search

or talk over it?

Come in:
Crossing the Gateless Gate

Hi Elena,

Welcome to the DhO,

Firstly, what makes you think those posting herein this thread haven't stared truth in the face and seen through the illusion of self, to some degree or other?

Just out of curiosity, are you free of all suffering? First of all, please define what you consider "suffering" and if you are free of it and If so, how does the continuing experience of "no suffering" play out, phenomenologically speaking?

Seriously interested and curious to know your current ongoing experience,

Nick

Edited to say: I tried commenting on your blog but you seem to have turned that function off.
And have a read of what most people may be familiar with here and tell me what the difference is between what you wish to share if there is any difference:

http://nickdowntherabbithole.blogspot.com/2011/05/seeing-through-illusion-explanation-for.html

I like your dedication, Elena, I really do!

Would you mind sharing your current moment-to-moment experience with us?

Interesting; in one of the dialogues he says meditation isn't for enlightenment, but for deepening the state. It reminds me of the sudden awakening/gradual cultivation approach in some forms of Chan; also, the five-path model wherein SE is the third path (that of seeing) and the fourth path is that of meditation, or of cultivating what was seen. I admit I resonate more with this view than with the four-path model and its distinct stages.

Still, I wonder if what they call enlightenment is what we call SE? I haven't read much of the site yet but it seems so far like a pretty loose affair without a lot of long term contact and the sort of longitudinal checking-out that seems useful in identifying SE. Could be a lot of different things going on, huh? Some funny dialogue though! :-)
--Jake

Hey Jake,

Have you seen this map http://awakeningtoreality.blogspot.com/2007/03/thusnesss-six-stages-of-experience.html ?

It seems to approach things from a non-dual perspective (that is, progressive deepening of insight into not-self). I'm guessing, based on methodology, their progress would be closer to this map than to the four path model. There's been some attempts to find parallels between the map Thusness presents and the four path model but I don't remember if there was anything considered definite.

Eran.

Ha! This dude is on my communicative motherfucking wave.

I like his style, he's not saying anything new although his way of going about it is pretty funny.

Hi, thanks for the welcome! I will look up into comments feature. I am in a process of transitioning to another blog, though. It should be an email address on my blog if anyone ready to look through illusion. What changed? Search is over. Such a relief. If you are hard-core searcher like I was, you would understand what i mean. The search drained out of my system. Freedom. Fundamental peace. Not peaceful, not bliss, but fundamental relaxation on the deepest level, whatever is going on on the surface of the mind does not affect it. Read my blog, guys. I wish all can just jump, but of cause, it's only for those who are ready. Read my blog and ask yourself.

how long ago did you finish your searching?

what were you looking for?

do you still suffer?

if so, why aren't you doing anything about it? =P.

Hi Elena,

You are going to have to do better than that to goad people here into reading the two blog posts on your blog to take your obviously sincere efforts seriously. Can you please give a low down on your current on going experience in detail here. I'm particularly interested in whether you are free of all suffering as has been expressed by people here at the DhO who say they are actually free of the human condition of malice sorrow, craving and aversion. Are you free from these as well? If so, I'd then be extremely interested in your simple approach although I've already seen through the illusion of personal identity. There is none.

There have been many drive by "my enlightenment is the true or better enlightenment" folks come by these parts before. The ones that had more effect were the ones who stuck around and were gracious enough to answer questions. Your so far "drive by" approach has not answered all questions. I've noticed someone "drive bying" at the dhamma wheel forum from the same group of ruthless truthers. Wasn't very effective there. And saying that those who ignore you are "not ready" is a cop out and you know it. Stick around, please.


:-)

Nick

Looks like the topic of enlightenment has reached a tipping point. Next step will be infiltration into the popular media. That's how it feels to me. I can see a reality tv show in Thailand in the making. The gen Y's will eat it up, having been brought up on Harry Potter and various witchcraft/werewolf/superpower type shows - all extremely popular. Probably a good thing in some ways, but just watch the spruikers appear...

READ MY BLOG! READ IT! FREE MEMBERSHIP TO THE FORUM IF YOU READ IT BEFORE MIDNIGHT TONIGHT (VALUE $200 pa.). I'M REALLY BUSY SO I MAY NOT BE ABLE TO REPLY, GOT SO MUCH ON THE GO, RUNNING WORKSHOPS AND SO ON! WHOAH. ENLIGHTENMENT GUARANTEED IN 1 MONTH OR MONEY BACK.

Or even
writing like this,
Just look
No self,
not even there
ha
ha
fucken awesome
Bring me Tolle's scalp.
Off for another smoke cos I desperately need the dopamine hit to feel good.
Out.
Free.

hi, Nick.I don't really sit on forums. This is the second I joined besides ruthlesstruth I joined ruthless to find somebody to push me over. I joined this, because somebody pointed me here saying that there is a forum where people with real dharma time gather. I though yes, I will just drive by and offer to read my story.

I only can talk from my experience. When I was ready - I felt it. My husband pointed me to ruthless, he read somewhere. I went and posted exactly this "Standing at the Gateless Gate. How to cross?" I just felt I was there, so by posting my blog I only wanted to point to people who feel some truth in what I had experienced, who maybe resonate at the moment.

Nick, Just because you asked me, I had no-self experiences/ dissolution in deep meditation, but that was not enough to really shift something. I was still searching. What I mean by search - it's basically can mean anything - people's search different. Search for peace, enlightenment or etc is just more sophisticated, then search for sensual pleasures or next shoes, so to speak What it was for me? Purification of the mind, endlessly releasing mind conditioning. I thought it would never stop. I thought it just "my makeup" or whatever. I was in a Gurgieff way, better to say, I was with Gurgieff way teacher for 8 years and then 7 years non-stop vipassana. Vipassana was really hard on me, I was in constant purification mode, just like detox, with all the bodily and etc.symptoms. I was mostly living like urban hermit.

Then one night I came across a site on the internet with a beautiful header - very vibrantly painted landscape. That night I ended up in that landscape and woke up in the dream. As Don Juan was teaching Castaneda to use his hands in a dream as an anchor, I did too. In that dream I experienced happiness that was long forgotten, from early childhood. Since that day, the hard-core purification stopped, and for about 2 years I was mostly in joy, sometimes, exhilaration.

Then I picked up Jed's book and ended up on ruthless in a month with the name Joy In comparison to the ruthless ground my name is just like a slap in a face

I should say I had a very intense moment where I had to decide at the Gate, since my life at that moment was almost blissful and joyful, and only Jed was turning something inside me. I felt very sad, incredibly sad. I didn't have fear, but sadness was really deep. I felt as I am saying goodbye to joy forever. I very much remember that moment when I decided. It felt like going onto guillotine. But as soon as decision came, sadness went away and came burning, heat, high and incredible focus.

You asked if I suffer and why I don't do anything about it. This is exactly what I was doing in Vipassana - doing something about suffering. I don't really see anything as suffering now. I know its sounds strange, but this is difficult to explain. You should understand it if you've seen through the illusion.

Anyways, you made me from "drive by" into "gracious enough"

E.

Do you get angry and act in the way anger compels you?

Do you get sad and act in the way sadness compels you?

Do you get frightened and act in the way fear compels you?

Do you get compassionate and act in the way love compels you?

I don't think anyone in this forum (ruthless truth) reached stream entry through this form of philosophical debate.
I'd rather guess a lot of them crossed the a&p which resulted in some form of mystical experience which they misintepreted to be enlightenment.
like i had after this discussion http://www.ruthlesstruth.com/arena/viewtopic.php?f=5&t=432&hilit=meggo i really believed that the things i experienced afterwards must be "it"
nonetheless these guys are serious about what they are doing and their "thechnique" really works for setting ones thinking straight...

Judging from Ciarans' description he's gone trough stream-entry (as talked about on this forum). It's easy to mistake A&P for 'it' since the A&P can be really spectacular. Without having read the forum it's possible that many there go trough A&P and mistake it for something else, but is it really that bad? Progress is progress.

I don't see why you need to discount the whole lot simply because you misinterpreted your own experience. I myself have 'popped' without doing any formal insight meditation, so has many others. I relate it to stream-entry because of the many fruitions experienced after the 'pop' but never once before. It is very very doable but you will need to go trough many "is this it?" moments before you get there.

Hi Elena,

Welcome to the Dharma Overground, thanks for posting!

As you have noticed, we're a bunch of geeks who like to fit everything into our intricate models. The maps and models have been very helpful to many of us, hence we tend to rely on them to understand our and other people's experiences.

Here's one I find particularly useful when taking the RT reports into account: The Simple Model

The reason I think it is the most useful in this context is because it is expressed in terms of no-self, the very realization central to the RT-style pointing instrucion.

Anyone can benefit from seeing anatta more clearly, regardless of which stage of the above model they are at. Thus, getting a glimpse of anatta will push people across the A&P, it will help chronic equanimity dwellers to crack Stream Entry, it will help with completing another cycle, to stabilize the glimpses of anatta into more ongoing experience, and it will help in untangling the knot. Those going for AF who are wondering what the centerlessness is all about will benefit as well by getting a glimpse.

Would you be willing to give a demonstration in this forum? Start another thread here, and invite anyone who wants to try your method. I think that would answer more questions than endless debate in this thread. Also, we could learn to use it and add it to the collective bag of tricks we as a community have already developed.

Again, thanks for participating,

Cheers,
Florian

Hi Elena,

Thanks for the reply. Any reason for emboldening your letters? It's easier on the eyes if you use the same script as everyone else.

I'm interested to know how long ago this happened to you, as you may well be in a honeymoon period, stink of enlightenment phase. Lot's of people go through it.

Would you mind answering Bruno's question above? That is what we are really interested in. Here at the DhO, seeing through the illusion of self is pretty much the norm. Ending ALL forms of suffering regardless of a self not being seen in any of it ever is what interests a lot of people here. Can you give us some details on that?

Thanks for graciously sticking around. The drive-by-if you ignore me you're not ready-stink of enlightenment-preachiness approach gets old quick. Thanks for avoiding it to reply as you last did. I hope we can suss out what the ruthless truthers are actually talking about and maybe see similarities to what most people here have done, are doing, will do.


Edited to say, I would love for you to do what Florian asks above. That'd be real cool to see, and would fit in more so with how this place is set up, what ever works!

:-)

Nick

Hi Eran, yeah I've taken a look at Thusness' map. It doesn't particularly speak to me but I think I notice the parallels with ruthlesstruth. I'm not sure though. I think that intense pointing out can be a great way to kick start something (a&p), or to push something over the edge if they're ready (path). But it could also result in a lot of "stink of enlightenment" stuff with people running around enthusiastically thinking they've cracked the code and must spread the word. That smells more like a&p than awakening, but of course I have no idea what I'm talking about :-)
-Jake

paul wrote: Judging from Ciarans' description he's gone trough stream-entry

I have followed Ciarans "work" for a long time now (years) and based on what i have read from him i see a steady philosophical progress in one direction which i don't relate to stream entry, but of course i could be wrong because nobody can experience another persons qualia

nonetheless i would be interested in what exactly makes you think that he has experienced stream entry?

paul wrote: I don't see why you need to discount the whole lot simply because you misinterpreted your own experience.

you seem to think i am disapointed with his approach, i don't know how you come to this conclusion.
why do you think i discount his approach if i wrote that i think it is a good method to set ones thinking straight?
plus i am not even that sure that i have misinterpreted my own experience, because it was more than just overwhelming, it was absolutly life changing. going from 17 years of depression, five years of anxiety and panick attacks, trying out almost every anti depressant on the market without luck, being judged by psychiatrists as untreatable, i got out of this after a few weeks using this method of "philosophical deconstruction". my suffering dropped from a 9/10 to a 2/10 since then and hasn't changed a bit during the time of a year. so i say it was an a&p because i don't recall fruitions and just to stay on "the safe side".

Hi Meggo,

If that had been an A&P, you'd be up to your eyebrows in the Dark Night now, not experiencing a 70% reduction in suffering. Being cautious an circumspect is all well and good, but this is just denial

I'm the overcautious type, myself. It took me a long time to acknowledge Stream Entry - I was looking for repeat fruitions and donut-shaped doors and whatnot - and not finding them where I expected them to be. Then I received a good bit of advice from Duncan Barford: he asked me to consider whether I thought fruitions were experience-producing (content-producing) or rather insight-producing. You know, good question. Once I had that sorted out, I started noticing the repeat fruitions as well.

Cheers,
Florian

Ciaran's realization 'there is no you' is akin to MCTB 4th path kind of realization, however not every 'enlightened' person (those with blue or red status - i am one of those blues in his site) in his site realized the same thing as him. There is often a mix up of impersonality, non-duality, and anatta on that site.

Since he walked the direct path, he did not go through the standard nanas and paths as laid out in MCTB. I have not seen people discussing A&P, dark nights, and stuff in that site (doesn't mean they don't experience that, but that is not their focus there - they do not lead people through progressive stages of jhanas and nanas and paths, but simply and directly ask them to investigate and realize anatta). I am also an example of someone following the direct path, however my direct path is not the same as Ciaran's as I started with self-inquiry which led to the I AM realization first before I experienced and realized non-dual and anatta. Ciaran is sort of opposite of me, as he only recently (more than half a year after realizing anatta) experienced the I AM (he calls it the 'space'), however due to his earlier anatta realization he does not reify it into a transcendental self of the advaita. Insights, realizations and experiences does not require a fixed linear progression, and they all complement each other.

can you also go into the differences between impersonality, non-duality, and anatta?

can you tell what it is the people on the site are attaining in particular?

can you tell why it is they attain one thing or another instead of what Ciaran did? (Also, how can you tell Ciaran's is the 4th path equivalent but the others' is not?)


it seems the "I AM" realization doesn't come up at all for MCTB-path-followers.. you mentioned Dan Ingram skipped it, for example. i thought that meant the 4th path realization surpassed the "I AM" in some way? can you go into why that's not the case? what is different before "I AM" vs. after "I AM" for someone who already has the MCTB 4th path equivalent?

Check out http://www.dharmaoverground.org/web/guest/discussion/-/message_boards/message/1870391#_19_message_1885432

Some people in that site experienced and realized impersonality, some non-dual, some anatta... it's a mix. There isn't clarity about the differences. For example, Ciaran thought (I'm not sure if he still thinks so) that Eckhart Tolle experience and realized the same thing as him.
This seems like it, though he doesn't reify it as a transcendental self as he experienced it after 4th path and not prior: http://web.mac.com/danielmingram/iWeb/Daniel%20Ingram%27s%20Dharma%20Blog/The%20Blook/2CECD5EA-6058-4428-8DDD-002856C2E28A.html

"There is also a state somewhere in that territory that seems basically like pure presence, like being a super-pervading Watcher, with the quality of perceiving or awareness itself being the dominant quality. This has a very different quality from the 6th jhana Boundless Consciousness, and in my opinion is far superior, more fundamental, and could be argued as the highest of the states that involve experience."

Daniel treats this as a passing experience (some sort of a sub-pure land jhana) rather than some kind of profound realization or insight, but from the description of it, it is the same (experientially) as the I AM.

For advaita (and zen, etc) practitioners, the I AM occurs prior to realization of nondual or anatta, as a powerful realization into the luminous essence of mind, it is an unshakeable insight into the luminosity of mind, presence, consciousness. So it is not merely just an experience that is important for them.... but more importantly, the realization. It is the first time they realize the pure luminous essence of mind (more accurately, the non-conceptual thought). This realization and experience tends to be reified into an ultimate Self due to lack of insights into its empty nature (lack of independent, ultimate, self).

For Ciaran, he is recently bringing the foreground taste of pure conscious experience of the senses, into the mental realm: the non-conceptual thought realm. It is like Daniel visiting the pure land jhana after 4th path (kind of). You don't reify that as an ultimate self but see it as just another experience.

I think Ciaran's insights still has room to mature... he needs to see that all experiences are no more ultimate than another, space is no more ultimate than anything else.

they seem to have some intuition about 'shallow' vs. 'deep' enlightenment. i heard one board member mentioning Ciaran 'popped' when he was in pretty deep, but he (the poster) popped when he was shallow, and had been deepening it...


oh , very interesting. what relation do you think this experience has to the apperception in a PCE?

They have an intuition but they do not know exactly the differences, the depths of insight. They don't have a clear map. They still lack experience imo.

What I think of it with relation to PCE is what I told you with regards to PCE of sense experiences and of the non-conceptual thought, you might want to revisit it: http://www.dharmaoverground.org/web/guest/discussion/-/message_boards/message/1631786#_19_message_1667041

Then we agree about the usefulness of contemplation (by whatever name). My bad if I misunderstood your intent.

Your experience I can relate to. This is not A&P but stream-entry. It's not a given that you will experience fruitions after SE, especially if you don't practice vipassana on a regular basis. It took me maybe 3-4 months after the realization before I noticed a fruition. It happens almost exclusively before falling asleep, when the mind is 'set free'. I'm sure you could get one if you asked someone here for instructions (I never get them purposely so I can't explain). Anyway good to hear you're out of the mud

Yes, there is a reason I have no idea how to use forum's various threads. It's easy for me to find where I wrote and then go from there And not bold is harder for me to read, I was curious why people do not bold theirs No more importance reason here at all, just convenience. I wish we all have different colors too

I will read, yes. What is A&P?

And it happened 8 month ago. BUT I am not 20y.o out of nowhere. I went through several bangha's stages, it's different. The most difference it's how it affected my day to day life.

Elena, from ruthless forum i found you said:



that momentary experience you had - is that your ongoing perpetual experience now, or is it different? what is different about it?

Hi, Florian.

This is great offer, but unfortunately I can't take it now. I am working privately with 3 people at this time. Booked But my friends, Ilona and Thassa (I think you spoke to her before, she pointed me here) hopefully will do that.

Hugs,
Elena

no, that was just a start Unison freed me, not Ilona.

there is another thread there, I forgot the name, if I find, I will post

how is your freed state now different from that momentary experience of no self at all?

I am not forum gal, guys, this structure is sooo confusing - I have no idea where to post, reply. It's just like an octopus If anyone ready to look, just email me. Much simpler and more effective for both parties.

As I said, I am moving to a new blog, and here it is:

Complete Humanity

Personally tailored to suit my feminine side. Cool, ya?

It's absolutely different.

That experience was a kensho. I had it before several times.
Now - ORDINARY. Never being so ordinary in my entire adult life.

It is difficult to explain in 3 words what I mean by ordinary, I will try to write a post about it tonight here:

Complete Humanity

Thanks for your questions.

And that avatar of yours rocks!

can you describe it in phenomenological words? labeling it 'kensho' doesn't help me understand what it was like =P.

were your senses different in that experience vs. now? your vision crisper, hearing higher fidelity, etc?

what was the sense of self like in that experience vs. now?

were there any emotions arising in the state, perhaps about the state, while you were in it? what about now?

what about suffering in that experience vs. now? you said you "don't really see anything as suffering now" - what about in that experience?

you say things are ordinary now - were things not ordinary in the experience, while you were living it? (Looking back it might seem out of the ordinary, but what about while you were experiencing it?)

=)

Hi, Thassa here.

An Eternal Now has pointed out a basic truth right there that is my experience. I have no background in any models or traditions and came at this very raw after only one year of seeking which consisted of incessant reading, listening to podcasts, watching youtube videos of popular nondual teachers, and surfing the web. And I asked no questions of anyone at all during that entire period.

This situation was, I feel, of great benefit because there wasn't a lot to "undo" when it came to seeing the truth. After spending every bit of my free time in that intense search, I finally, in exasperation, googled "what does enlightenment feel like" and "how many people are enlightened". That lead to the Steve Pavlina discussion board on the subject where I came across a post amid the fray that was so clear and clean that I could not stop reading it. It seemed to cut to the core, and was worded very simply,

There is no you.
There are thoughts, but no thinker.
There is seeing, but no seer.
There is believing, but no believer.
There is no you. Never has been.

I'd later learn that this was what Ciaran calls The Gate. In my experience, it was. I read everything Ondal said on that board and basically skimmed over the rest of the responses because I felt they might cloud whatever it was from Ondal that seemed so clear. His posts led me to Brutal Beginnings, a RT ebook, and finally to the RT forum. Though I never posted until after the realization of no me, I poured through the posts there and on another site, and within a couple of days of working with them, knew I was done. There was no me and this was very clear.

I finally posted on RT and have been there since, assisting the efforts to help others. What became clear to me was that once I stopped trying to figure things out using intellect, I noticed that the gate was wide open. I've integrated this opinion in how I communicate this to others on the RT forum because I was so very struck by the simplicity.

I'm open to questions, but as I've said, would not be able to discuss it in terms of the models. However, anything you can extrapolate from this discussion is why I'm here. Ask, and I'll answer honestly.

Thassa



Original Pavlina Discussion, for those interested: http://www.stevepavlina.com/forums/spirituality-consciousness-awareness/57129-conversation-ondal.html

Interesting website.. it really is.

Here's a part of Ciaran's post which I found interesting:
"CIARAN: hmm
i see what you mean
i really do
here's my take
people cannot not have emotions
they can detach themselves from them
or build a fortress to hide inside"

So basically that dude hasn't attained an actual freedom, utter end of suffering, etc.

Also there's something about the direct approach on that forum which kinda rubs me the wrong way - the "just look there's no self! hey! great, now you're liberated" which implies low standards.. and although I can see how that kind of investigation is useful, it also seems a bit immature to me.

Hi Yadid dee,

Something I've noticed since beginning to look at the forums and message boards over the short time I've seen this, is that there is often a pull to become distracted by a debate as to whether or not the teacher is liberated. And initially, I was very reluctant to really examine the pointers presented, simply because of the language and tone on that board. Finally, I had to ask myself whether I had the ability to determine whose finger should point to the moon, so to speak. When I dropped my biases and just took an honest look at the message for myself, I found the gate open.

It's worth taking a look at the method, at focusing on the message rather than the messenger. Ciaran, or any one of us on the board, cannot actually liberate anyone at all.

Hi Thassa,
I don't doubt these methods are useful,
nor do I disagree that focusing on the messenger can be unhelpful sometimes. If you got benefit from this, great.
But different methods lead to different results (although it is tempting to assume 'the truth is one and all roads lead to it'), and it also seems that different biases and mind sets, and goals, influence one's practice a lot.

Therefore, if you decide that liberation includes suffering but no 'I' suffering, thats what you'll get, since you will not go further, i suppose.

But I guess that forum isn't unique in that sense (thinking there's no getting rid of the whole package of suffering, not just "suffering, no one there"), because it happend at the DhO as well.

Ondal's post are fascinating.. i'm wondering if he has AF. he reports no ego at all, at least in the posts i've read so far. will have to keep reading.

to be clear, there are 2 goals:

enlightened: see through the self, but the ego is still there, albeit seen as fake or whatever. emotions arise. one can defend them as 'necessary'. there is still suffering but one has to 'live through it' and 'accept it'.

actually free: no self at all. no emotions remain. there is no suffering anywhere.

i (personally) don't doubt Ciaran is the former. by his own words, he is not the latter.

Watcha, BCDEFG

I like the definitions you have of enlightenment and actually free.

Because, when you say 'no self at all' that's all there is. No self. At all.


But.... no emotions remain? Really?

So, like 'no emotions = no suffering.'?

I call that a lobotomy, tbh. That'll get you no emotions and no suffering.

IMO, "Actually Free" means all emotions. Everything! Life in all its glory. Nothing excluded or denied.... nothing.

Hey Viv,

So - Suffering, but no one there to experience it, right?
Shame, but no one feels it.
Fear, but no one feels it.

But actions result (with no doer), from these feelings, yeah?
An action resulting from fear.
An action resulting from anger.
An action resulting from shame.

But no one there acting?

What I've experienced in the month since this realization is the absence of suffering. Of course, it's quite possible that this is too new to really be tested, but the reduction in behaviors brought on by previous suffering is probably 100%, though friends and family would be better able to answer that. My family has noticed a marked change, though it's not drastic. There is just an evenness, a base of peace that's returned to no matter the circumstance, even those which would have triggered a prolonged emotional response.

If you were to ask whether I've appeared to become angry or sad, I'd say that I may have, but it's gone in a flash and does not stick to anything. There isn't a claim to them, so though they are experienced, it is by no one. It's just the experience.

But yes, I do understand what you're speaking of with regard to the former. I'd tried the "live through" and "accept" route with no success at all.

I get what you're saying, Yadid.

But, nah. No self. No cause. No effect.

See... there is no doer. Of anything. So.... nothing can cause anything else.

Nothing results from anything else... because there is nothing to cause the effect.

Yeh, MCTB 4th path is this. But ultimately unsatisfactory IMO. To be "friends" with it so to speak, is just another mindset. My mindset is set on extinguishing the whole human condition of malice, sorrow, craving, aversion, becoming, becoming, becoming etc.

If it solved your problem, kudos to ya! Ya got what you (stopped) searching for. I do believe there are many here who have ideals which may be a little different and take it one step further and if you wish to argue to your hearts content about AF and the result of no more affect, it's been done to death before an various threads and various forums. I think one can overlook the illusion of "being" (all affective feelings) even when "self" or personal identity has been seen through. Just my 2 cents.

:-)

Nick

I have not decided this, however. What is suffering except to a self?

There is fear. No one fearing. No suffering the fear.
There is anger. No one angry. No suffering the anger.

And I'm not sure what's meant by further... to the goal of not experiencing suffering, or is there something else?

It's called "actual freedom." To make an analogy, one could say that enlightenment as you experienced has successfully eliminated the illusion of a thinker, and actual freedom as we define it eliminates the illusion of a feeler, it eliminates the feeling of "being". Now, it turns out, that the feeler and the feelings are one and the same thing, and hence affective feeling never arise again.

This might seem odd to many, usually due to attachment to emotional states, and due to not having experienced a taste of what it is like to experience without the overlaid affective/energetic/imaginary layer.

Such an unfiltered experience is here called a Pure Consciousness Experience (PCE), and here is a short phenomenological description of such an experience (from this page):



It is quite frequent that people have such experiences of sensory clarity and perfection once one reaches MCTB 4th path (which is what we call your attainment over here). The point of actual freedom is to live permanently that way. When such a condition is made permanent (and we know of various individuals who have made it so, some of which post here on the forum), no sadness, fear, anger, or love arise ever. One always "feels perfect," which turns out to be a completely non-affective (and very very delightful) experience.

You could try to induce a PCE and see for yourself, I'm guessing Nick could probably point you in the right direction (of how to have such an experience from the vantage point of 4th path).

this. yes.

Hi, Florian,

so I am absolutely lost in this octopus forum and all the abbreviations like MCTB and AF and whatever else. It's like we speak different language. Can you point me where are those words transcribed? Thanks!

I find it really disappointing to see how easily some members of Dho are being led around. It's like you have no base, no foundation of your own. Anyone with a degree of confidence can come on here and suddenly you're all wonder and awe? Because that's all it is - confidence.

Will Ciaran be the new Richard now? Will Direct Pointing be the new AF?

Here's how Ciaran speaks when his fragile ego is challenged. Someone tweaked him and he got very offended.

7 January 2011 11:49
Ciaran said...

Can you please suck my cock?
8 January 2011 04:54
Ciaran said...

And if you want to get some explanation on something I've written, ask me to explain it in a way that I might want to answer, and that doesn't make you just look like an arrogant cunt? ....

Is that sufficiently CHILDISHLY SIMPLE for you, or would you like me to make a little card with glue, glitter and pasta shapes, and send it to you, you unbelievable fucking retard?
========================
I have no problems with those words, none at all. It's the tone. He's pissed. Doesn't even answer the guy's question. His attitude is extremely willful and unsettled, agitated almost. Everyone MUST get enlightened. They MUST. REALLY. Phew - exhausting.

Beo and Florian, I really expected you would have known how to spot a fake. Every word he writes screams "PLEASE VALIDATE ME!" "Please understand that I am clever, that I can philosophize and that I can understand the human condition". Because he can, he's clever, but he hasn't gone far on the path. ["Red is for the LIBERATORS. If you have liberated someone, you get to have a red name, and that means everyone knows that when you talk, they should listen"] - oh dear! They do not have hundreds of people enlightened in record time - they have none. I can't believe people are falling for this.

CCC,
sorry man, but you're stuck in your own projections on this one

no one is falling for anything. this is just a discussion.
who is 'being led around'? 'have no base no foundation of your own?' 'all wonder and awe'? eeeeep! projection alert.

In regards to Ciaran..:
"I clearly am not beyond negativity - indeed, I'm far more negative now than I ever have been." - Ciaran's blog.

Different goals.. Most people on this forum are intent on never being negative ever again, whether there's a self there to be negative, or just negativity experiencing itself.

This is very similar to how I felt at the end of my last retreat. It was the most liberated I've ever felt and I wanted to share that with everyone and for everyone to feel the same. I could not see how anybody would not be making the same effort to find this liberation as I have. I was rehearsing big inspiring dharma talks in my head. It was awesome! Me being me, though, that energy slowly tapered off over the following month but during that month I had some very intense discussions with dharma friends where I felt like I plugged in to a hose of faith in the Dharma. I can definitely see how someone who experienced a genuine spiritual opening would react in that way.

There is something to what they are doing. It is helping them in what ever way they see fit. Maybe it could help people here at the DhO get out of the self "I" "me" "mine" identifying trap.

But also be aware of the STD's (Spiritually Transmitted Diseases). Especially, the red ones. ;-)

Hey Bruno,

In reading that description of PCE, I wondered why no one had asked whether that was something experienced already. There seems to be an assumption made here.

But discussing that is irrelevant. What I'm here for is not to defend RT or Ciaran, or even myself. Liberation is not about the messenger because it's ultimately not dependent upon that messenger. You are here for freedom. If this is a discussion of different methods to achieve something not yet found, I'm pointing one out and ask that it simply be explored. Test it. There's no harm in testing out the method rather than debating the merits of the messenger, is there? What if it's actually this simple? What if there is just one question to focus on:

When looking, is there a you?

What is the method? Please post it here, clear and succinct so that it can be put into action and tested by DhO members. THis place is all about practice, so, Thassa, please lay it out for those interested, in this thread!

:-)

Nick

i did ask if Elena's experience was always like that (her momentary no-self experience).

Beo: "how is your freed state now different from that momentary experience of no self at all?"

Elena: "It's absolutely different."

i was taking the assumption that the no-self experience was a PCE, as it sounded like one, but i wasn't sure so i tried to get her to explain it further. but anyway; further, you said:

"There is fear. No one fearing. No suffering the fear."

since in a PCE there is absolutely no fear, it is clear your permanent, ongoing experience is not that of a PCE.


the issue (which is why it is relevant to discuss the PCE) is what 'freedom' is. there are different states one can reach. one state is very nice, it's clear there is no separate entity called the 'i', yet 'being' persists in the form of affective feelings like fear. some people are fine staying in that state. there is another state which is even nicer, there is no 'being' at all, and thus, no affective feelings at all, and life is perpetually perfect without any qualifications like "suffering arises but it doesn't stick - bad moods arise but i can choose to drop them whenever i want" etc.

see nick's explanation on the difference. i think the 4th path he mentions there is your current experience - can you verify that? then can you go on to read about the path of actual freedom, and get back to us on the 'there is fear. no one fearing'?

Thank you, BCDEFG. I believe I see the difference already in part of your explanation, here.

'qualifications like "suffering arises but it doesn't stick - bad moods arise but i can choose to drop them whenever i want" etc.'

Except that what I was saying was that there is no me, no I, no Self to choose or drop, or want.

And I understand how it would be helpful to fit this experience into a framework those on this board are familiar with, but I hesitate to go down that road because it would detract from the core of what was asked be presented.

I would suggest that this be explored and determined... verified, in your own experience rather than in an attempt to define my own. Whether or not my experience is validated is not ultimately helpful, not as helpful as your own experience when honestly and clearly looking at a single question,

Do you exist?

Hi Nick,

The practice is very simple, but is almost always glossed over or dismissed as too simplistic. It is done by looking at this statement, and in checking with reality to see whether it is true, whether it can be verified in reality.

There is no you.

Look at reality, what's really there, and then look for the self.

There is no you. There has never been a you.

C C C,

This:

"I find it really disappointing to see how easily some members of Dho are being led around."


There is no leading around. It's a matter of the answers to a question being validated in your own experience.

That is why there is no point in validating the messenger. Because then it would be looking for credibility of a belief.

I was referring to Ciaran's state - not sure if that's the same as yours. i should not have used my own words. excerpt:


this is not a truth, as it is possible to eliminate hatred forever; hatred arises due to ignorance, just like the mistaken 'self' did.


i can't say that i do. there is volition, moving of the arm, typing, thoughts. i know there's no separate entity , a 'self', that 'i' am. yet there's still a tendency to think of it as 'me' thinking and 'me' moving around. when that happens, if i look, i see that it wasn't 'me' thinking, but the tendency is there. and there is still a gripping need to seek, which intuitively feels like 'i' am gripped or that 'i' am being gripped, though if i look, it's just more sensations.

Hehe, you are kind of preaching to the choir here at the DhO. Yes, there is no "you". I see no self. Just sensations and cause and effect. In fact right now (temporarily) I don't even sense a sense of "being" anything. Only objects coming in contact with the senses.

Here's one for you, do you "feel" a presence? Do you "feel" like there is some sort of felt sense of location (not a self) but maybe a sense of "being" or inner world or "something" other than "self" in your ongoing experience? How do you experience "time"?

It is quite subtle but since you have already dropped the "self" referencing, I think you will be able to sense it. It arises along with any affective feeling. In fact they appear to be the same thing, affect = sense of presence/being/inner world/flow of becoming etc . Affective feelings can be pleasant, unpleasant or very neutral. Does it feel like the flesh and blood body right there reading this and not seeing any self anywhere has a felt sense of "presence"?

When you get a sense for it, watch it till it drops away. What happens?

Would you set up a thread where you help any members here realize your direct pointing? It'd be good to see you in action here with a willing DhO member and then see results here rather than pointing us to the ruthless truth forum. It would be more convincing to see if it works with a pre-1st path (stream entry) yogi. Any member up for some coaching by Thassa into this realization?

:-)

Nick

Yes. Thank you.

What often happens is that the I is subtly, inherently, inferred when looking for the self. It's literally tripped over when doing the looking, then the dismantling doesn't reach back far enough to that very first inherent assumption.

That, and also....the "sense of I" is ridiculously persistent. It will often continue through this process of looking happening right now, though it, too, is just a thought. The thought is real, but the content is not.

What is it that sees that "it wasn't 'me' thinking"?

Right there. That assumption of an "I" is where I suggest more looking would be helpful.

Hey Nick,

Yes, I do know that I'm preaching to the choir. And to be honest, it was quite intimidating, initially, to consider coming into this forum as you all have extensive knowledge of states and traditions. Would I be able to answer your questions? But truth is truth. It can't choose whether someone is educated in any particular field, or educated at all. And so after finding truth, I also find that I'm here.

To answer your question:

There is the presence of reality. Here, there's typing, the presence of typing, the reality of the hands, keyboard... marks appear on the screen. What's experienced is a dropping sensation, a grounding with no location.... an emptiness.

And... interestingly, "dropping away" seems to be the opposite of what happens when attention isn't focused on that.

As for an experience of time? There isn't a single experience except for, as you can imagine, an awareness of an ongoing present moment. I hadn't thought of it until you asked, so thank you, but I had briefly noticed recently that there's a little bit of disorientation with regard to tracking time. It's not of any concern lately, I guess.

Does that answer?

Also, I'm willing to work with whomever would like to, either here, via email, or on the board. Elena and Viv are also available on the board, and I believe Elena has already invited members to her blog.

Hi Thassa,

Thanks for the reply. Do you feel any affective feeling whatsoever in the current moment whether it be neutral, pleasant or unpleasant to any degree? Subtle or gross?

:-)

Nick

*blink*

(laugh)

There's nothing. I hadn't been asked that before either. Hadn't considered it.

Do you EVER feel any affective feeling whatsoever whether it be neutral, pleasant or unpleasant to any degree? Subtle or gross? You said there is fear yet no self feeling fear. Does that mean you on occasion have experienced some affect or another? Do you experience "desire" to any degree, subtle or gross? Do you experience moments of no affect and then on occasion an affective feeling of any degree and kind may arise depending on conditions? Or are you forever 24/7 free of all affect?

:-)

Hmmm.... you're obviously delving into something to have me prove something to you, looking for credibility.

No credibility should be placed here. None.


But to answer:

I've noticed several things. And keep in mind that this realization(s) happened May 26, so it's a month old and so my experiences of "before" and "after" are not clear cut. But in that month, yes, anxiety has arisen, but not *in* anything. It's arisen in reality. All of life's experiences, I expect, will continue to arise in reality. Otherwise, wouldn't it be just a self, denying?

The difference is that it goes nowhere. It *is* nowhere specific. It passes... through... or by.. I'm not sure. The experience is there, experienced. But "before" it would have been experienced from a point of view. Now, there is no specific point of view. But there is also no ability or even desire to deny any experience when it arises.

* I should have added that the experiences are not continuous. They move, change... and fairly quickly.

I'm trying to suss out where you are according to what we talk a lot about here at the DhO. What does "no credibility should be placed here" mean or insinuate?



So, what is anxious? What has a stake in "being" anxious? What has a stake in feeling and continuing to "feel" and experience all of that affect? What has a stake in continuing to "feel" any affect? The next time anxiety or any affect arise, see if you can sense that "presence" or sense of "being" or "location" of something in the world. Another further piece of the illusion puzzle to see through?



Yes, the same thing happens at what we call 4th path here. But since you are fresh off of what is presumed to be the same or similar thing (one month) then we might assume you are in a honeymoon period where life is all fine and dandy. Has your life flowed along like a sweet song since May? Perhaps it may need to be tested under conditions that may not be so supportive of the freedom you speak of.

At this moment in time, is there a sense of "wellbeing" in the ongoing experience of the mind/body organism that is Thassa?



For many DhO posters here, the freedom from the push and pull of desire (affect) continuously, forever, regardless of having seen through the illusion of self or not, is the main goal. By your own admission, you haven't gotten there, nor have you previously considered it an option or possibility, nor do you seem attracted to it. What has a stake in reacting negatively towards such a possibility?

However, I would say that if your approach is effective in what you say it helps do, then I'd advise any pre-path yogis interested in laying down the weight of the illusion of self to use this direct and quick approach to lay down that weight so that it may help in furthering the goal of an actual freedom from malice and sorrow, craving and aversion of all kinds (if that's your goal).

Thanks for sticking around Thassa. It's been insightful.

:-)

Nick

You're welcome, Nick.

Did I "pass" something? (laugh)

I understand the reasons for the questions and don't mean to be flip, but to be honest, when realization happened, any desire to prove it to anyone at all just plain disappeared. It became irrelevant for me to explain it even to those I first contacted... the folks on the RT forum.

I hope these answers are helpful and sufficient to dhO forum members in sussing out whatever is needed in order to engage. I'm here to help point to no-self, however, not to gain credibility. The reason I say this again is that I feel it would be a distraction. That's because the pointers speak for themselves, and the surety of the individual's own answers stand as judge and jury. The case then closes itself.

Anyone who'd like to give this an honest try, please just let me know.

thassa

Welcome to the DhO! :-)



It's the norm here to question the shit out of things and people till things and people are clearer. Tis the way it is here. ;-)



It would be good to see people get the advertised results of this. For anyone wanting to get 1st path, or even 4th path, an especially if you are having trouble cultivating PCEs, this realization may ease the load and make these other outcomes a possibility. IF the approach works...hopefully, these ruthless truthers aren't talking out their arses. ;-)



The approach is supposed to be quick right? Within hours or even minutes. So it isn't such a waste of time to try. At least one will be certain of the validity of what these guys are talking about.

Thanks Thassa,

:-)

Nick

The length of time varies in my experience, but a matter of hours is not out of the question.

I'm available via several contact points:

email: thassaamzwar@gmail.com
skype: please email for skype
www.ruthlesstruth.com/arena for one-on-one duel. Username: Thassa
And, of course, the arena Pit is available if you'd like to work with several people.

BCDEFG, would you like to continue? Please do email.

Be well.

HI C C C

Koshima Imo!
Most clean tasty style
Girney coo to you?




[Edit: Imo is the given name of a japanese female macaque; Spelling correction 'koshima']

Very good.

Whom, do you suppose, was the 100th?

Hi katy,

There is snow monkey, IMO.

DhO, please don't confuse these "ruthless" people for true practitioners in the developmental sense. I highly doubt Ciaran has achieved Steam Entry or any attainments of the mind. Three years ago he was a confused former pick-up artist with an extreme case of existential angst, who got really screwed up reading from too much Tolle and McKenna. Most of what that community has to offer is uninspiring mental masturbation, by DhO standards.

I wouldn't call that community the "MCTB for the immediate/direct method," as it lacks the same level of sterility, clarity, and accuracy that is so earnestly protected here. A look around those forums and you'll see what I mean... "You just gotta realize, dude, that all you are is awareness and it's like, it's like seeing yourself for the first time and really knowing.... Just KNOWING...dude."

;)

Rob, I understand your cynicism, believe it's healthy, and I'd invite you to take another look at the forum. Everything is there in the open and nothing is hidden. It is "staffed" entirely by volunteers, not just one individual, so I'm not sure how pointing out anything about a single individual is telling of the whole. What's more, no one here is obligated to engage.

I've answered the questions presented even though what's being offered to the group carries no fee. What, in your opinion, is the harm in inquiring?

not true practitioners? yep, come and sit with me several hours vipassana. Have to warn you, you can't move even a hair, ok?

Guys, this is just a joke how people hold on to their dharma path. Ever heard "Kill the Buddha?" of cause you did. So kill it.

I own a post on ordinariness to Nikolay, I was just busy working with 2 people on email, and in life, so I am behind. But I will get to it, Nikolay! I am soooo confused with this forum, I found myself lost here, and answering in different threads

Nickolay (love your name, by the way, Russian?), sign up for my blog : Complete Humanityhttp://completehumanity.blogspot.com/ , would be great to talk more!

Hi, It's ilona here.

As Elena says, direct pointing really works.
I have found ruthless truth last september, was pointed to look directly at no self and boom, got free!
Now I am helping others to see through the illusion of separation and you can check the results on my blog Marked, Eternal

Pointing does not need to be hardcore, only focused. Everyone can see it, it's really simple.

Summary of Ciarans Method
1) Tell people there is no you, tell them to look
2) If they ask questions, don’t answer answer them, just tell them to look
3) If they say they don’t understand, don’t know how to look, insult them
4) Repeat the process
--> so if you ask a ruthless truther something, most of the time you won't get any real answer out of them, they just turn it around, and try to penetrate your reality (a little bit like the socratic method)

Why it works
1) No question get answered so people must get it for themselves
a. Which is really important, because it will get your right hippocampus into play
2) Not only are they supposed to see through the concept of „I“ by themselves
a. You have to transcend concepts from the very beginning
b. You have to look for meaning all by yourself
3) They also have to come up with a method of their own to solve this problem (the only hint they get is „look“)
a. And this is were it is getting tricky and where people get different results
4) Most of the freed on RT are vipassanizing / neti, netiing the process (without knowing they do so)
a. they get it that „just look“ means to be 100% present and aware of what comes up
b. so they start to look around in the present moment and see that they are not this and not that
c. M&B  C&E  3Cs  A&P and they think they got it
5) Some of them may be getting further and reasons for that could be
a. Driving energy
i. Some people on RT are clearly suffering from depression (Ciaran did to bevore his liberation) plus are convinced that seeing through the „I“ will end it for them, so they develop a do-this-or-die approach
1. eckhardt tolle or ramana maharshis process comes to mind
ii. combine that with the hostile atmosphere on the forum and you get aggression too, so your focus strengthens
b. a different approach, not vipassanizing it, different starting points
i. and this depends on the individual and their prior insights
so i just can say how it unfolded for me which was pretty simple:
when i was 16 i figured out that there was no objective reality and i had no free will
a few years later i somehow had the feeling, that this me was just a concept, but didn’t look into it, because i was scared (really, really scared)
these insights came just out of thinking/ looking or just out of nothing, they were „mine“, so i understood the meaning behind them, they were not mere concepts to me, but reality
so i got on the forum, and the simple pointer to „there is no you“ in combination with nothing else but my depression at that time drove me to come up with something which was more than just a simple answer which sounded right. i really wanted complete clearness and truth. Truth above anything else, i had nothing to loose anyway. And then suddenly it happened. I somehow combined the prior insights i had with this simple pointer and everything was clear. Really really clear. Some mystical experience followed (the world was clear, i was everything, and everything was only consciousness, but that went away after a few days) , then a myriad of insights flooded my brain. I got high on it, insulted everybody i knew in the following month and felt great (haha). I looked around to figure out if this really is „it“. Stumbled upon guys like eckhardt tolle or u.g. krishnamurti. Especially u.g. seemed to be on the same page as i was at that time. Everything he said (except the things about perception) was like straight out of my mouth, like a speech which i could have given. So it was inevitable that i thought ok this must be „it“. But my opinions about this have changed a bit over time.

Hi Meggo,

Thanks for the summary. Very helpful. What made your opinion change a bit over time? And what did it change to?

:-)

Nick

Yes, we call it "calenture" here at the DhO. There are a variety of calentures; the dharma calenture, the actualist calenture, the no-self calenture, etc. There are many ways the "ego" obsession identifies and latches on to ways of continuing the flow of becoming. As that is how it continues to exist.



Hi Elena,

I wont post on your blog as what I would say is not very helpful nor conducive for your mission to share your realisation with the world. So I'll post it here out of harm's way. Essentially, I agree that your realization that there is no self anywhere, never was to begin with, is a very important realization and a very freeing one. Thus the enthusiasm you have to share it with the world. I also stunk and sometimes still do stink of enlightenment as well. Hehe. But it is only half the story in my experience and the experience of a lot of people here at the DhO. You could rest your laurels where you find yourself, if you so please. But since you posted here, I'll plant this little seed.

You wrote this in your last blogpost:



There is "no-one" to defend yes, but what has a stake in being (from your blogpost) "open to any emotion pass through without really sticking." What I mean is, what if even those emotions ceased forever? What is your reaction to them ceasing forever? Ask yourself, if there is a negative feeling against such a possibility, exactly what has a stake in continuing to "feel" all those emotions?



Even when things are all relaxing and fused with a sense of well-being, perhaps the answer to my last question is in the quote above from your blogpost.

You could rest your laurels there, if it pleases you to do so. OR you could keep seeing through the illusion further.

:-)

Nick

Edited to say Yes, my name is of Russian origins. Granma is from Moscow and Grandpa was from the Ukraine. ;-)

Hi Ilona,

Welcome to the Dharma Overground. Thanks for dropping by.

In case you're interested in demonstrating your approach, I started a new thread with an invitation to DhOers who want to try this: Direct Pointing in Action.

Cheers,
Florian

After this high and the subsiding of the greater part of my suffering there was not much left to do anymore. It seemes that some form of mild anhedonia/ demotivation became my main form of experience...the world and everything that happens is ok, there is not much wanting arising, i don't know what to change and i am kinda bored
this and some form of obvious suffering/ resistance which is still left (like i have some fear of heights and am pretty sure that i would do a lot of things to avoid doing a bungee jump for example) led me to the conclusion that i am not enlightened, which is ok too...
so i figured that i could start meditating to see how that works out.

Hi Thassa,

Welcome to the DhO. As I mentioned in reply to Ilona's post, I created a new thread for you people to demonstrate your approach with any DhOers eager to get a good whack of Not-Self.

Cheers,
Florian

Hi Meggo,

thanks for your analysis.

Point 4c is probably my biggest concern:



Just as with MCTB 4th Path, it's a good thing to assume that there is more work to be done.

Cheers,
Florian

that's what pragmatic dharma is all about. our experience is our experience, it's just what it is =). nice to have you here.

Nick/Thassa,
I’m the kind of guy Nick is talking about. No question, from my perspective this is very helpful. I had my first real shift in perception yesterday (Saturday) after spending significant portion of Friday reading Ciaran’s blog and trying to apply the technique! I could write a book on what happened yesterday but let me try and condense it. It’s important to say that what I perceived yesterday seems gone, at least vastly diminished.

I also need to note; I’m leaving in 3 days for my 10 day Goenka retreat and can’t spend much time away from my meditation and perception practice. With that said, I hesitated spending ANY time on this RT stuff on Friday, but it turned out to be an AWESOME thing from a perspective that would be helpful on the Gonenka retreat too. Here is the brief version of what I did and what happened:

Friday, read the blog started applying the RT method of “do I exist”. I was focused less on looking for “me” and more on trying to perceive that just this moment exists. Read from his blog and the “Brutal Beginnings” file and had flashes of understanding that was more than intellectual. However, went to bed thinking that was cool but I didn’t “pop” as they say.

Woke up on Saturday, things seemed brighter, different. It took me a bit to realize it, then it was clear, something REALLY was different…but what? Started reading the notes I took from the RT info and I could now perceive “just this moment”. I could think about this moment being everything and wham, “I” felt it, “I” saw it, “I” was stuck in it. To be VERY clear, “I” was still there, so was feeling, but vastly diminished and perhaps for pockets of time “I” really was totally gone, it was hard to tell. Here are some specific things that happened:

1) I suddenly thought about time never ending and never beginning. It’s just always “now”. Of course it never began and will never end. How could it? It’s ALWAYS just now! That made perfect sense in way it never did before. It wasn’t a concept; it was a fact and now it was really understood.
2) Saw a picture of Jack Kornfield on a magazine cover and his face looked 3D, real, alive. I stared at it for about a minute lost in how amazing it looked.
3) Meditated and it was AWESOME. I got locked into the breath for 30 minutes *. The normal mind chatter was almost gone. I could apply Nick’s advice from Tarin and I could do it in a way that was NOT possible just the day before. It was simpler, not entirely effortless, but close.
4) Talked to my neighbor. After I was done, and only after I was done, I noticed it was effortless. Never once did I think about “him” or what he might be thinking about “me”. That may seem trivial but that’s HUGE and that lack of awareness of self lasted much of the day. I didn’t TRY and stop obsessing/judging, it was just GONE. Nothing to try and stop. Quiet.
5) While I was scared to do it (for fear of losing it) I forced myself to try and perceive things like I had all my life. A separate me, experiencing life, separate from it. I was NOT able to really see it that way anymore, but I didn’t press too hard. While this new mode of perceiving was not effortless, it was also not that fragile.
6) Had ice cream with the family. Got lost in how awesome the ice cream looked. Fascinating. Spooked my wife a bit.
7) Was FINALLY able to do what Jill said about noticing shades of color on objects and not just the object. I perceived with judging, without LABELING. I could just notice the qualities of something and that was enough, it was interesting, bordering on fascinating. There was a F**CKING sense of WONDER. That’s what I’m trying to say.
8) Noticed smells like a mofo. I was smelling cinnamon inside of a barbecue smell that was wafting down my street. Distinctly cinnamon, inside the other smell, over and over.
9) The biggest thing is just being able to rest in this moment with nothing else. Got lost in a cartoon my kids were watching. Caught myself literally slack jawed, deeply watching, nothing else was even happening. The noise in my head was quiet. I was comfortably sitting in the now without wanting or needing anything.

Woke up on Sunday, it’s gone, essentially. That same tree that was awesome yesterday today looks like a tree. It’s cool, but not awesome. No matter how hard or how gently I look, nothing. It’s just a tree. DAMN! Yes, this is the present moment and yes when the future comes it will the present moment but there is no “meaning” attached it. “I” am back and “I” feel a sense of time. A “me” to protect and that lives life. A past and a future, a cause and effect. The things I perceived yesterday mean something, they were a glimpse, but I can’t quite “feel” or “see” it anymore. I’ve looked and it’s gone, or hidden. The best way I can describe it is like coming off a high (pick your favorite drink/drug). It’s gone and the world is simply not perceived the same way anymore. It’s like it’s not possible. It’s not lack of effort, it’s gone. I can’t pretend to “feel high” anymore, it’s over. What I have is a memory of something different, something VASTLY better than this. That’s cool and I am grateful for having a true taste of it and it will help me get back. I definitely have a better understanding of what I am looking for. Just wish I knew how to get it back? Going to stop writing and go meditate and think about “no me” and “this moment” some more. Doing my best to stay present and observe.

Lastly, AF is still the goal, no question. I see this like Nick said, a way to remove a sense of self which I will use as a stepping stone to AF in a similar way that I am going to a Goenka retreat to a learn a technique toward a goal of PCE and AF.

Best to all. Take care! Fascinating weekend so far. Life changing…
Ed

Anyone,


What is the rage that exploded out of Ciaran's awakening experience? Who is enraged?

Booya! :-)

Sounds like you saw perhaps glimpses of the PCE or at least the fact that the felt sense of self is all smoke and mirrors....and thus pure intent may have found its source. Good luck on your course, Ed! You have all the tools and motivation you need now. Now go and cultivate the conditions to get it done!

:-)

Exactly! I think they may be seeing through the centre point pattern of phenomena that is usually read as seperate entity. YET, what has a stake in getting enraged?

:-)

Nick

Ed, connect with me. I sat ten 10 days Goeka retreats and served more then a dozen. Currently I am working with one of the Goenka Vipassana guy on email. Look up my blog : http://completehumanity.blogspot.com/ it's here: Complete Humanity. I have 3 posts there, read them and email me. I will work one on one with you over the email. What you described in your post here - you had a state. Liberation is NOT a state. I will talk to you later. Email me: becomelight@gmail.com.

Hello Thassa,



What then carries a fee? One-to-one "duel"?

Your gmail, my chair: which should I use to unbind?


May one letter of yours be changed (strike-through)?



Here being the location of any readers and writer, individually.



[spelling correction: duel]

I'm sorry, Katie, but I don't understand and it feels as though there is something you're not asking outright. Speak plainly, please. Are you asking something specific? Please do.

Hello Thassa,


1. What then carries a fee if not what's being offered to the group? Do you charge a fee for your "one-on-one duel"?


2. Emailing you, being in my chair/my whatnot - which causes unbinding (do you call this "cracking up" on your site)?



Are the above more clear?

Katy,

Email me. Come to the forum, either the Pit or the Duelling Ground. Interact with any of us.

No fee. We're here with an offer.

And... Unbinding sounds like it could be similar to what we call cracking, yes.

Hello Thassa -



2. Emailing you, being in my chair/my whatnot - which causes unbinding (do you call this "cracking up" on your site)

Which unbinds: a person's chair (any and all substances in the inconstant here and now/ of one's immediate present) unbind the constancy-seeking entity?

If there is no constancy of self and no constancy of any thing, which site (DhO, rabbithole,eternal now, ruthless, Actual freedom trust) should be used?


Welcome.

You present a method, a pit, a dueling ground.

Is this method further from here, the immediate present?

Doesn't look much like actual freedom to me.

First... why is a flesh and bloody body declaring that it is not the body? In a very down -to-earth way, this seems a bit silly doesn't it?
Who or what is it that "has" the body, and "has" the intellect and is using the body/intellect as a tool?

Second... "remove ego (something that is created by the mind) and it's only reality left." If one removes the mental construct of self, the emotional felt sense of self (ie. reality) can easily and most often does remain. Hence the distinction between reality and actuality - wherein one must also remove the feeling sense of self (ie. the soul).

Certainly, some of these statements look very similar to what's been said by those who are actually free, but they must be read in the context of the other statements he makes.

Similarly Richard reported having no ego at all for some many years before attaining actual freedom, but all the while the identity still remained intact.

This method basically looks like standard MCTB style vipassana with an emphasis on one of the three characteristics (annata). Or put the other way, MCTB vipassana looks like "direct pointing" to three characteristics instead of one. (unless perhaps someone might argue that annata is more "direct" than annicca and dukkha)

Yeah, also I don't buy the supposed directness of it. Saying it is a direct path when one manages to use the method after years and years of practicing vipassana (or being stuck in a dark night, which can produce similar speedup) is not giving the proper importance to everything that happened up to that point... IMO.

Expecting that someone will just get it without going through the necessary steps, although possible for certain special individuals, seems otherwise unrealistic --- but who knows?

still... if they could round up all the non-4th pathers off the DhO and have them pop by the end of the week (if popping is equivalent to 4th path), that's pretty fscking direct.

Reading through the ruthlesstruth site, my impression is that the active engagement with the guide, the language used, the setting ("the arena/pit") are all part of the method, all serve to create a psychological mind state that leads to the realization of annata, to me this seems very different from the pure technical approach of "just noting" what ever arises. I realize that the latter approach also results in various psychological mind states, it just seems that those are not being directly harnessed towards the goal of realizing non self.

Alan Chapman has written up a critique of the Ruthless Truth approach; some interesting points to consider form the article and comments (apart from the to-be-expected hurt sensibilities) include:

• The difference between no-self and not-self (important one, IMO, and worthy of a discussion here on DhO)
• What happens to the drop-outs of the RT approach
• Fooling oneself into believing there is no self

Cheers,
Florian

This strikes me as a pointless debate. It's so easy to test whether or not the RT method works (by our standards)---teach someone who has become "enlightened" through it some basic vipassana and see if they can get a cessation. What could be simpler?

Making precise distinctions between the meanings of terms, producing arguments based on possibly idiosyncratic ways that people use words to describe their realization...not useful.

Well, let me amend that. I do see why Alan's worries make sense. Is it really possible for people to be getting enlightened so quickly? Isn't it more likely that they're mistaking something that isn't enlightenment (according to our model) for something that is due to social reasons? Well, I dunno, maybe. But worry about it because that scenario seems more likely in itself, not because you want to nitpick the way they talk about it. People say all sorts of crazy shit about enlightenment depending on their background and personality; unless they come to a community like this one and adopt a more precise model, that's just how it's gonna be.

And, there's still an exact test that would satisfy us, which would be so much more useful than verbal arguments for or against.

well i did engage w/ Thassa here, and it did result in a shift. not 100% if it is just another 3rd path-moment or the 4th path or what they are referring to. ill post on their forum and see what's up. fun experiment anyway =).

I was working with 3 of your guys from this forum. 2 are done. Take them back, if you want, just kiddin

One's work is here:

40 years of meditation. 3 days of direct pointing.

Another one I have to compile and will put on the same blog, so stay tuned!

Again, if anyone is sick of seeking, email me.

direct pointing? nice tool! it seems that we've already been doing this here at the dho, but just not in a sweeping machine gun shoot-em-up fashion or any missionary-like approach. hang around a bit and you'll see the way it happens here, both in forum posts and in private messages as experienced meditators see it useful or appropriate to ask no-self related questions to help out (often equally experienced) dharma friends. aside from direct pointing we also do indirect pointing, direct and indirect sharing of meditation techniques, experiences and tips, direct and indirect joking, etc. etc. as we welcome discussions of all techniques, tools, and advice for developing insight and becoming free from suffering. one thing we value highly here is the common appreciation that there are different strokes for different folks for swimming towards the same or similar goals, and with this in mind, we pay close attention to the uniqueness and peculiarities of each person, including their practice experience, failures, obstacles, plateaus, successes, demonstrated insight, beliefs, goals, expectations, preferences, limitations, language*, and exchange carefully thought-out advice or suggestions that seem most appropriate to each individual situation. to enable this, we interrogate each other to bits to get to know everything practice/progress-related about one another, attention which I guess could either intimidate or impress newcomers. just as we do here with all the techniques we share, perhaps after more discussion, testing, debating, and fighting about direct pointing of no/non/not-self, we can help each other refine it so that we can learn to use it more and more skillfully and effectively, as appropriate and applicable to the right person at the right time.

*even the words self, Self, self-ing, selfless, not/non/no-self and "seeing through of self" carry different meanings for different people, whether intellectually or experientially. the exact same transcendent "total no-self" condition to one person may be interpreted and labeled by another person as an experience still full of "self stuff" that could and should still be dissolved. without hammering out those differences first, we could end up going in circles talking to ourselves and communicate nothing.

wonder what happens if we do some "direct pointing" at something a bit more subtle than the self illusion...

what is being in the present?
what being is in the present?
is there a present reality?
if you experience a present reality, then look again...
is there a present reality?
is there a present moment that a human being can sense?
what, then, is sensing this present reality? the senses?
do the senses sense objects at the exact moment they arise?
do the eye sensory data beat the speed of light?
do the ear sensory data beat the speed of sound?
do the nerve endings send touch data in zero time, so fast that the word "send" is not applicable?
what is the intuition that the present reality can be sensed?

Hey TJ!

Yes, as a matter of fact, there isn't a present moment as it is coming and going at the same time. There is no demarcation. It doesn't exist as a "present moment" at all.

Excellent questions, thank you!

hi thassa,

as you evidently appreciated the above questions, i am writing on the chance that you may also appreciate the ones below. but first, some context for them:

it appears that tj broccoli's comments regarding the varied understandings of 'self' (and related terms)[1] apply equally to 'present moment' (and related terms)... for while, in your most recent reply, you wrote:

earlier, in this same thread, you wrote:


and so the obvious questions (assuming you have had a sufficiently deep insight into the nature of arising and passing) are as follows:

devoid of a present moment, dependent upon what conditions does fear arise?
devoid of a present moment, dependent upon what conditions does anger arise?

tarin

[1]

Hi Tarin.

Well, I really need to look at this. Because in reading my own comments, it occurred to me that language is a bit of a hindrance here. For instance, if I say "fear arises" that could imply that fear was experienced. But.... it seems that sensations and thoughts arose that were identified as what was previously labeled fear but were not experienced as "having fear". They were familiar, however, and identifiable as such. So, I believe you use the term "affective" in this case. But even then language is tricky. What would be affected? In that regard, I would say they are not.

But I'll be honest. I'd like more time with this question. I have no background in any of the terms and have actually shied away from too much reading on this. This is unfolding as it will, which seems good.. ok... fine.

Thank you, TJ and Tarin both. I realize you are returning the offer, doing some pointing as well.

I find it very interesting that the RT folks seem to have no interest in even entertaining the thought that they are not fully enlightened. I may be incorrect, but the opportunity to learn more(drop more of the self) seems to be completely ignored, which is sad. It's difficult, after seeing this behaviour, to think that they aren't really interested in progressing on the path, just scoring points by liberating others(who is this meant to impress?). While liberating others is a very noble goal, the more "advanced" one is the better able they would be to help others, and the more people they would be able to help.
This reminds me a great deal of the fellow who came up to me on the street yesterday wanting to "share the good news" but had no interest in hearing me. It seems to be a one way street that is used to stroke the ego. "I have the Truth, allow me to enlighten you".
I could quote 'til the cows come home about the "empty bowl", beginners mind, etc, etc. from many different traditions. It seems clear that RT is full of experts full of knowledge with no room for anymore. This isn't meant as a criticism, it's an easy trap to fall into, I have and may again. But maybe give it some thought.
PS. I don't need you to save me, but thanks in advance for the offer.

Brian, how do you know people do not practice? What is the practice? You have all these assumptions, it's not even funny, it's sad. There is nobody to save, so you spared.

The drive-by advertisements by some don't really offer much in the way of details into the practices the RTers are using to "deepen" or progress on the path. There is talk of a "demon theory" which hints at that, but it is still unclear. It would be helpful for the DhO if some RTers would perhaps elaborate on the further practices they are putting to good use in order to progress from their no-self realization. This is important for the DhO as it is something that is not clear. And here, people ask questions and make statements like Brian's above because of that lack of clarity. Many people here have also realised that there is no self and are continuing to progress to further levels of liberation from suffering.

It would seem this school of direct pointing is still young and not sure of what to do next after they get to the no-self realization. That is the impression I get. There is seemingly also the impression that some RTers convey that there is nothing more to do after seeing that there is no self. "I'm enlightened now, so let's save the world". Here is an excerpt from a RT blog:



But they may be missing out on what more they can do and conveying the incorrect notion that there is nothing more one 'can' do. That is another impression after reading a few RTer blogs. This can seem quite "limited" to many, and it probably would be a wise move to share practices post no-self here in this thread to put to rest some of those lingering doubts many may feel by clarifying and dispelling those possibly wrong surface impressions, rather than making remarks that are not helpful.

Would some RTers care to elaborate on what they are doing 'after' their realization in order to progress? And where do they hope to end up? How far do they think they can take advantage of the realization to change or even eliminate all forms of suffering, sublte, gross, sticky, not sticky? Do they think this is not possible and/or desirable? Do they think it is possible and/or desireable? Why and why not?

You see, there are a few differing ideals as to where one should rest their laurels here at the DhO. One of them is very high: The end of all forms of suffering, self or no self, the end of "being"/becoming. Some here call that path the path to Actual Freedom. There is a wiki on it. It also seems similar to the buddha's ideal of freedom from the fetters. This will help clarify how far one can go with the direct pointing approach in order to avoid the possible traps where one could get stuck and stagnate if the approach and 'ideal' stops at a certain place. This is the DhO and informed decisions are exactly that, informed.

Clarity and transparency please!

:-)

Thanks, Nick and Brian.

I can only speak from this point of view and not for any of the others on RT. Each needs to be seen as separate personalities rather than as a whole because that's a road that oversimplifies and fosters misunderstanding.

What we've done here is to offer direct pointers to seeing no self for anyone interested. Why? Because it seems to be the common base to all enlightenment teachings. From that point, where the individual chooses to take their practice or deepening is not for anyone to say. But this basic seeing is the lock we are driven to break open. I use the term "we" loosely here, please understand that. This is not a RT vs. DhO endeavor.

I understand that Tarin, TJ, and you, Nick, are coming from the same place of intent. If there's something that can help others, you are pointing to it. That's the reason I started this post of with a thank you. I understand what's at the heart of it.

But what happens now? Do we begin a dialogue which I've often seen become one of "my enlightenment is better than yours". Whom will that serve? That's the question I'm wrestling with now as I write this.

I have not come up with all of the answers and don't think I will. There is nowhere to rest, Nick. How do I claim to do that here?

Your welcome. :-)



This was needed to be said and clarified for future readers. Impressions can be wrong. Thanks for saying this, Thassa.



A statement like this was needed from someone representing the Ruthless Truth Direct Pointing approach. Thanks, Thassa.



Some do understand, some may not.



That dialogue is up to those who wish to entertain and explore the possibility of further progress. There is no need for "my enlightenment is better than yours" attitudes. They help no one. This goes for both sides and should be taken into account when posting here at the DhO. People can post and insinuate whatever they want elsewhere. Here, transparency and clarity should reign supreme. The fact that people have expressed their doubts in this thread is enough to ask one of the guys immersed in the RT approach to clarify and answer those doubts. This is inline with what happens here at the DhO whenever other techniques, claims to enlightenment or stages of progress and claims to what "enlightenment" and stages of progress are all about, are expressed.



It's enough to say that this is a very individual thing, and I respect and appreciate your answer, Thassa. Grouping all the RTers into one neat description comes from misunderstandings that arise from lack of clarity. Thanks for clarifying for the sake of those at the DhO. :-)

The notion that there is "no where to rest" is confusing. What do you mean? By rest, do you mean that there is no 'end goal'? It is statements like this that lead to the impressions that cause doubt. There would be those here at the DhO, that would disagree with the seemingly absolute statements like that. Such statements need to be clarified for the sake of all those here.

Thanks for answering respectfully.

Much appreciated.

:-)

Nick

Nick, in response to your question:

"The notion that there is "no where to rest" is confusing. What do you mean? By rest, do you mean that there is no 'end goal'? It is statements like this that lead to the impressions that cause doubt. There would be those here at the DhO, that would disagree with the seemingly absolute statements like that. Such statements need to be clarified for the sake of all those here. "


It's a wholly personal statement. Life unfolds. From this (my, for lack of a better word) perspective, it means there is no where to place a stake, no controller.

Hope that clarifies things.

Be well,

Thassa

It seems that at least Ciaran believes that there is more that can be done:

http://www.ruthlesstruth.com/arena/viewtopic.php?f=3&t=367

CIARAN but once in
listen
once in
the state can be deepened
and that's your next play
the guy
who is the best in the world
at deepening the state
isn't me
i'm the specialise
in transmission
to deepen
well
look a little closer to home
for just south of the danish border
lies a land called germany
from which a man called Eckhart Tolle has come
he's your next port of call

""Brian, how do you know people do not practice? What is the practice? You have all these assumptions, it's not even funny, it's sad. There is nobody to save, so you spared.""

Thank you for the response, it answers many of my questions.

Metta.

Thassa,
Thank you for responding to my post.
You are very right that each person needs to be dealt with individually, unfortunately not all people associated with RT seem willing to interact as individuals. Some seem to only want to fall back onto the standard responses, it almost seems like a script is being read. I appreciate your willingness to interact instead of parroting a few simple lines. The grouping together of all RTers shows my own ignorance, thanks for pointing that out.
I also appreciate that you are genuinely trying to help others, and that the questions of how to proceed from where you find yourself must be a difficult one. Fortunately for everyone involved I don't know enough about enlightenment to argue with anyone about it. I wish you all the best!

Metta

Brian.

of cause more can be done. It's a beginning to an end. Without beginning - just paddling on the shores. One need to dip in a stream. Many paddling for ages, seems like a lot of work done, but still on the shores - self perfecting itself. Still paddling on the shore is necessary for some. It was necessary for me for many years.

Hi Elena,

The above statement is something you keep repeating in various ways and doesn't clarify anything but it does kind of show what Brian is pointing to.



It would be nice to hear about your current practice if there is one, and why if there is not one, and how you are going about "doing more". This is in order to clarify these doubts, which in your last response were not cleared up. It is what we do here at the DhO. We do not rely on 'standard responses' without detailed explanations. 'Standard responses' are taken as sidestepping and avoiding the questions here. It rings alarm bells for many. You have decided to engage people at the DhO. This is how it goes.

It would be good for your own cause, if you'd clarify these clouds of doubt with some details. Just like Thassa did. If not, all good. But the clouds of doubt remains about where you are teaching from.

Kind regards,

Nick

P.S. Seeing as Thassa has established that it is a very individual thing concerning what one does after the no self realization, then it makes sense to take each RT direct pointer who posts here separately. You are after all acting in the role of a teacher/coach/guide etc. It's only fair to ask these questions especially here at the DhO.


Edited to add a fun conversation of an RTer versus Thervadan Buddhists: Some of the things said may relate to the DhO.
http://www.dhammawheel.com/viewtopic.php?f=22&t=9021

Nick,
Thanks for the link, I haven't gotten through it all yet, but "a fun conversation" only scratches the surface. My stomach hurts from laughing! Winnie the Pooh, Santa Claus, I saw Batman somewhere, everyone must get their own fictional character(imaginary friend). OK I appoligize for that one.

Perhaps, then, it's also worth stating that the DhO is a community of individuals as well, and there is no single DhO point of view, (as this might not be immediately clear in this thread as well.)