Hi,

I had another practice thread somewhere, which will now descend down into the archives. I wanted to make a fresh start, now that I have all the initial turbulence behind me.

So let's get right down to it.

I find it pretty easy to experience felicity when I focus on it. But in everyday life, the ordinary way of functioning still is very present.

I'm cultivating the HAIETMOBA awareness more and more and it is helping me feel better. Felicity is truly a nice thing to experience. But no PCE's.

I know I need to apply the method more, but I'm stuck. I've done a lot, doing exactly what Richard recommends. But no PCE and now I'm stuck at one point where I tend to experience felicity when focusing on HAIETMOBA, but that's as far as it goes.

A side note, I think I did experience a PCE in my past, but the memory is a bit hazy. It happened a couple of times, I think it was in my 18-20 years old age range.

Richard says that cultivating felicity allows fascination and wonder to occur, which then turns into a PCE.

In the 18-20 years old period, I would sometimes look at something, like a lamppost and suddenly be fascinated by the fact that is was actually there.

I would experience wonder and fascination as I looked at the simple fact that it was actually there.

I think that there was a moment of pure PCE a couple of times.

The point I'm at now though, is that I can become aware of the world, and have similar experiences, but it is still perceived through my personal filter. I cannot seem to be able to get rid of that.

Any ideas?

well, you've been practicing for only around a month, and a part of that was spent with a less than perfect attitude, such that you probably didn't make much progress. I've been going for nine months, and probably spent about 6 of those in bad-attitude mode. after getting out of that i've started making progress in my baseline felicity, stuff doesn't arise as much anymore, less beliefs i think. my philosophy now, after a little direct pointing shenanigans, is this: I know i've made progress with this method, i can see that i'm still making progress in getting beliefs out and getting more freedom, i'm going to just continue doing that and not worry about how fast i'm going, because there is no way worrying is helping.

maybe you can start up some "actual" jhana practice as is being discussed in this thread:
http://www.dharmaoverground.org/web/guest/discussion/-/message_boards/message/2250673
that seems to be a slightly more direct way of getting into PCE than just being happy and sensuous and 'getting lucky'



i might have written these exact same words, but no matter who i ask i get almost the exact same response it seems. i don't think there is a "surefire" way to just go into a PCE, even people who have gotten way farther than i have seem to not quite be able to get it on command.

but, if anyone has a surefire way i'd love to hear

'i' tried to get a PCE for a while after starting actualist practice. it didn't work at all, at first.. and part of the reason was cause 'i' was so caught up in trying to get the PCE that it had no chance of happening. here is my version of "no matter who i ask i get almost the exact same response it seems" =P.

i'll put it this way: you can categorize anything you're doing into whether it will lead to a PCE or not. being attentive and sensuous, cultivating naivete and pure intent - these things will lead to a PCE being more likely to happen. worrying about how to get a PCE, or how to get one faster, or how to get unstuck and into a PCE, etc..., will lead to a PCE being far less likely to happen.

the distinction is between "trying to get a PCE" vs. "having the strongest intention to be as naive, attentive and sensuous as possible, with as much felicity as possible, moment-to-moment". the latter is the way to do it. pretend you didn't even know a PCE was possible (and you don't yet, really, you've just heard descriptions and you have a potential memory). is it not enjoyable to be naive, attentive, sensuous, felicitous? if so, why stop doing it? just keep doing that. less suffering is intrinsically better and more fun.

this also provides a stupidly simple practice method: whenever anything happens... re-direct your attention to naivete, felicity, attentiveness, and sensuousness.

you notice you are making progress and are more felicitous. ok! can i be more attentive, more felicitous, more sensuous?
you notice you are stuck and, though you are felicitous, no PCE has happened yet. ok! can i be more attentive, more felicitous, more sensuous?
you notice that senses are getting prettier, and you wonder if you had a PCE back when you were younger. ok! can i be more attentive, more felicitous, more sensuous?

etc...

when did a PCE finally happen for me? well, immediately before, my senses became clearer. i kind of made a half-sincere decision to enjoy myself, so i was walking around, looking at some trees. i would remark how pretty things are.. but 50% of my mental effort was still focused on being nervous about being able to get a PCE. i somehow managed to just keep being sensuous, keep enjoying it. i was wondering whether i was close to a PCE, or not, but still managed to keep being sensuous... so at some point i was just looking out somewhere, being sensuous, somehow the nervousness had faded, and there was a stunningly surprising and totally unexpected experience of the visual sense coming sharply into focus, detail i wouldn't have imagined possible (as i was already focusing on being sensuous and my visual field was quite much crisper than it was before starting any practice). fun stuff. nothing 'i' could have done to trigger it.. except to be attentive, sensuous, felicitous, naive, etc...

advice i would have given to myself is to focus especially on those beliefs + thoughts related to success in getting a PCE. notice how you don't need them at all to be sensuous and felicitous. hmm, do they actually help in any way?

About my attitude... It was yesterday while practicing that I suddenly saw how malicious I've been, even communicating on here. I was filled with regret, an emotion that does need to be seen through. It doesn't feel right though, like rejecting the regret makes me a bad person. But it was from the felicitous perspective that I saw clearly the errors I've made.

Happy and Harmless (brainstorming here)... Does it help feeling regret when aiming for H&H? No. Clearly not. Then how do I process the regret? Stop the feeling, learn the lesson. Feels right.

Ok, so what if I felt nothing. No feelings at all. Brings up a feeling of fear. Like, "this is bad". Without feelings, who would I be? Just a lump of flesh? The person that I am would be gone? Don't want that.

I've come to the point where I am clearly aware of the instinctual feelings, and the sense of dread that Richard spoke about. Socially, I've pretty much dismantled it, it helped that I had hardly any problems regarding to social stuff.

But now these instinctual responses are all over the place. Dread, fear of demise, feeling like I need to survive since AF will take away "me".

And if it does, there will be no me to enjoy AF. That's the... excuse to be honest.

I do not want to go, yet I want AF, but only if it means that I can stay and enjoy it. Me being gone is something that is met with the greatest instinctual survival response.

HAIETMOBA... I see those responses. Suddenly shifted into awareness of the computer screen, my hands typing, but "I" am still here, even feeling kind of superior for this response. "Look, I achieved a very advanced step!". Pathetic really. So, does that help H&H? No.

Then an ego response. I can easily accept the idea of getting rid of the feeling that something is pathetic, because it serves "me". Getting rid of regret on the other hand isn't as much self serving.

So I'm stuck in a self loop. Easily rejecting what is beneficial to self, having trouble with the things that aren't.

I'm self-centered, selfish, and a hypocrite.

Blaming myself now. Not useful at all.

I do not want to disappear. I do not want to be just this flesh and blood body. I do not want AF.

Yet, on some level I do.

There's a conflict. I want it but don't want it. I am afraid of my demise.

That's the loop I'm in.

I just typed in this post, upholding total honesty as a value. Hopefully someone can help me out of this mess.

Once again an excellent post from you!

I have one question. You said:

"i was wondering whether i was close to a PCE, or not, but still managed to keep being sensuous... so at some point i was just looking out somewhere, being sensuous, somehow the nervousness had faded, and there was a stunningly surprising and totally unexpected experience of the visual sense coming sharply into focus, detail i wouldn't have imagined possible"

Were there any feelings in this experience?

I'm asking because all my PCE like experiences are accompanied by feelings, but the pure PCE experience is without feelings and even without self.

I think I'm disregarding a lot of progress "because there are still feelings" -> a personal thought of mine. It makes me feel like I'm on the wrong track.

Living without feelings is something I can't imagine. Even the breeze on your skin is a feeling, how can you live without it?

Confused here, wanting to get a PCE, getting the evidence if there is any, and then seeing what I will do. But I'm stuck at self stuff and the ordinary AF practice isn't getting me further.

Any ideas?

Hey Simon,

Good to see you stepping up and getting on with this thing. Like I said in the other thread, you're coming at this with a lot of the same doubts and concerns as I had for quite a while so it's great to see that you're willing to question that 'cause it's a good place to start.


What do you think is causing you to feel stuck? You might have done a lot, but if you're missing a part of the process then it'll take a lot longer to get to where you want to be so look at what is preventing you from being attentive to your sensate experience right now. If you find that you are unable to be attentive to sensuousness, as in paying attention to the senses here and now, then find out why!

Which feelings are running and preventing this from being a PCE?
Where are they in your body?
What sort of feelings are happening?

Go at it like a mad dog, dismantle and deconstruct these feelings and find out what lies at their root, if it's uncomfortable then go at it harder until you untangle the knot of mental and physical sensations. What has worked well for me so far has been to work at just staying attentive to sensuousness constantly, if something prevents this from happening then I investigate it until I can see it clearer and then return to attentiveness again.


So look at what's preventing this ability to be aware of the world from being the baseline experience. I wrote a couple of posts about big changes in "me" and ways in which I've gone about dismantling the social identity (something that I worked with long before these practices) which might be useful for this:

Being Right & Getting Even
Ego Mapping

Whether it's of use to you, I don't know, but hopefully you'll get something out of it anyway.

It sounds like you need to deal with the social identity and belief based stuff right now, as far as your previous posts and current situation suggest it may be beneficial.

Good luck with it anyhow and keep us updated.

"feelings", as in "'I' am 'my' feelings and 'my' feelings are 'me'" refers to emotions, e.g. love, hate, desire, regret, etc. the sensation of the breeze on your skin is just a touch-sensation. that does not disappear in a PCE - it is one of the things that is left (along with visual input, auditory input, consciousness, perception, among other things). while the goal of certain meditative absorption might be to stop all sensory input, the goal of the actualist method is to maximize it in order to minimize 'me', as "i" am not sensory input.



going by my definition above, there were no 'feelings' as in emotions. there was certainly sensory input, though, and very pleasant sensory input at that. and there was a marked lack of 'me' there.. yet it was not worrisome at all! nothing important was missing whatsoever. all the fear and nervousness from before just vanished along with the rest of 'me', temporarily. i just looked around and was like - so this is where Richard + the rest live... no wonder there is no malice here =P. i remember remarking "it's easy to be filled with wonder when everything is wonderful".


this is normal. it certainly plagued 'me' a lot, and still does a little. there will be emotions + feelings until you are AF, though, with PCEs as temporary gaps. you are already making progress - you seem to have identified many issues that are bothering 'you', and you can now cultivate felicity on demand.



you will be 'stuck at self stuff' until AF. that is its nature. the only way the self will be extirpated is via constant and consistent attentiveness. the more the merrier!

you might also like to read up on naivete, as this is something which 'i' lacked for a long time, but which is tremendously helpful: naivete, not to mention the related correspondences on the left, especially following the exercise from the first correspondence here.

sincerity - that's the way to do it.


maybe think of it as "stop fueling the feeling". you want to neither express the feeling (be regretful), not suppress it (i must stop this regret cause it is bad!), but just to no longer feed the regret, let it peter out, by e.g. realizing it is silly.


though there will be no 'you' to enjoy AF, there is no 'you' anyway, in actuality. there will still be consciousness, intelligence, discernment, sensory input, thoughts... so, consciousness will still very much be operating. it isn't like you will be a disembodied thing that you cannot have any control over (an image i mention because it is one i had, among others). the trick is that 'you' think 'you' must stick around in order to enjoy things, whereas actually 'you' are the only thing preventing said enjoyment.


sincerity - always good!


why do 'you' find it harder to stop being 'regret'?



try to minimize blaming yourself, though. maybe read up on naivete (the links in my previous post). and perhaps this essay as well.

Just to let you know... I've read all the replies and am currently processing the responses. Please don't feel like I'm not appreciating your responses, I do. I have read them all and have learned so much from them.

I'm desperate. I want to be free, but I'm stuck in misery. I cannot get out of it. If you've ever read about depression in children, that's it. Plus an anxiety disorder, been there all my life.

I will kill myself tonight to get out of the misery, it's just too much. An overdose of my meds will do.

Hopefully there's something after death, otherwise I will just have ended this misery.

Hi Simon,

Hopefully you are joking about killing yourself but if you are not please call a close family member or a friend to talk about your problems. There is a light at the end of the dark tunnel you might be in. I had been in a similar place for years. Death is probably not the answer you are looking for. You can find release here in this very life. Trust me! It fucking rocks!

Nick

Got the pills lined up. A lot of tranquilizers and a lot of other stuff.

Been through the talking. Been through the hospitalizations, been through it all. Now it's time to go. Misery has it's limits and my limit has been reached.

No matter what I claimed before, I am at the lowest point possible.

Simon,

Many have of us have been in situations like you're describing--miserable, unhappy modes of existence that continue on and on with no sign of getting better.

The reason that communities like the DhO exist is so that we can all support each other in trying to free ourselves from the miseries of life (whether they be large or small)...and because we have confidence in the kinds of practices talked about here, and can testify about how they've benefited us to whatever extent that they have.

Whatever you're experiencing right now, however bad or desperate it may seem...there is something better that's possible! It is possible to be alive and enjoy that in unimaginable ways! Please give things a chance! Life can be so good. We can help. We want to help!

As Nick said, please call a close friend or someone in your family and tell them what you're thinking about doing. They can help you, right now, in a way that we can't.

Please don't give up.

Simon, it's also possible that, if you're feeling worse than you ever have before, you may be at a transitional point (because of your practice) and things may be about to change in some big way.

Many people have had "dark night" experiences, caused by the practice, which are really horrific...but there is always something better on the other side.

After 15 years of trying. After everything, I do not have an option anymore. AF has helped me a bit, but nothing relieved me from...

Total honesty here:

Nothing has relieved me from the total misery I'm living in. I've had a psychosis, have a severe anxiety disorder and suffer from depression. The anxiety and depression have been there for as long as I can remember. Even at 3-4 years old I was scared and depressed.

I feel like nothing can help me. I have tried everything. All that I wish is relief. To have it all go.

I see no other option. AF is taking too long. The pain is too severe.

Sorry.

I've been in this dark night for too long, I can't handle it anymore. 10 years... it's just too long, with no end in sight.

I've called my family on other occasions, but this time it's done. Either I experience a miracle or it's over.

Thanks all, but this was my last hope. Be well!

Don't do it.

Your state of mind 5 hours ago seemed quite different. What changed, from 5 hours ago, to now?

Reality crashed down on me. Underneath all this confidence was misery. Misery that could no longer be ignored.

My whole life has been a mess, and the confidence was a response to it. It was fake though and couldn't hold up, and the misery finally got clear. It's just too much.

Simon, won't you wait a day or two and see how things seem then? What you're experiencing right now (worse than ever before) could be the prelude to a big change for the better. And if it is, it will go away, all of a sudden. Honestly. I'm telling you that and I think it's true. I've had really negative experiences that blossomed into amazing things (like the "negativity circuits" in the brain acting up before they burn out, perhaps).

Someone tried to kill me in my past. I've almost been dead several times, to the point that it seems like the ultimate solution. Severe abuse, almost dead, scars (with and without the stitches), growing up in total confusion. I can't take it anymore.

Maybe ordinary people get to AF, but I have too much baggage to sort through, or even begin to become aware of.

Everything hurts, and has been hurting for many years. AF was my last hope and I can't go on any longer. Some people would advice to keep practicing, but I can't any longer. It's too much.

though it doesn't seem like it, this is progress. you are uncovering the layers of your identity. you had confidence, situated on top of misery. now you see the misery. what you don't see is that the misery is as insubstantial as the confidence. but, if you stick through it, you will see that the misery will vanish just like the confidence did. it is totally insubstantial. just because it feels worse, does not make it any more special than the confidence. it is not worth ending your life for.

what happens if you go through the misery? what's on the other side?

I am hurting too much. What is there if I go through the misery? Nothing. Misery is all I know. I could imagine better things, but they are not real. The pain of being the victim of someone who wants to kill me is too heavy,

I really gotta go. Don't feel bad about me. I appreciate the help I got here. This was my last attempt. Now it's time to go.

you say you have been scared all your life, since you were 3 or 4. yet just a few hours ago you were mentioning how amazed you would be with things just actually being there (when you were 18-20). you were clearly not feeling the misery during those cases. you were clearly not feeling this misery just 5 hours ago. so, is it accurate to say misery is a permanent thing which you will always fall down to with no way out, or more accurate to say that feelings change, and they sometimes change into misery, yet not always?

if misery only happens sometimes, then what's to stop it from happening more and more rarely?

why do you think misery is the ultimate truth and not the fascination with things that you are remembering? (not presupposing either one is the ultimate truth, but why do you pick one over the other?)

i'll be away from the computer for an hour; i hope to hear from you when i get back.

You want help. That is why you are here.

Misery was all I knew for a long time as well. i had thoughts of doing myself as well. Never had the courage though. Probably scared shitless by the buddhist stories and theory I was told while practicing within the goenka tradition about those who killed themselves having the mind full of misery in the last moments of this life, thus conditioning the flow of mind for the next 'life' so to speak. Shitty mind state to shittier mind state. Killing yourself ain't the answer even if you aren't swayed by the strange buddhist stories. You are amongst a lot of people who have also been through a lot of shit. You are here looking for support. You have it. Take advantage of it!

'You' want to be happy and 'you' can be. "you' just have to turn the victim story on its arse and look at it for a sec. Look at the shitty sensations in your chest, the heavy shitty depressive sensations, and instead of seeing them as unpleasant, change the perception to pleasant. Really just see them as pleasant. Fake it for a bit until they suddenly appear to be quite interestingly pleasant in a weird way. See what happens to the unpleasant mood then. What happens?

Nick

1-800-273-8255

www.suicidepreventionlifeline.org

Please call.

You have such an opportunity here to no longer suffer. It just takes effort. The human condition is misery, is malice. Most people walk around in some kind of boredom, sadness, or restlessness and in order to relieve yourself, your going to have to work at it. The self is unsatisfactory, thats its nature because as a being your are pushed and pulled all the time. For thousands of years, people have wallowed in this pain and sorrow but this doesn't have to be the case any longer. An exciting future lies ahead of us and we're all at its forefront. A new consciousness, a new way of satisfying living.

Imagine never feeling sorrow for the rest of your life. Imagine being fully satisfied and excited each moment again forever. You can have this with dedication and effort. If you need to wallow in sorrow right now, then just chill and do it. Don't try to relieve it, relax for a bit. Be the being. See what it is, don't run from it. What exactly is this sorrow that won't leave me alone?

It seems like your doing everything right as far as the method is concerned. Theres a lot of gunk to sift through. Its a gradual process not an instant fix. This process is attainable for everyone but its a do it yourself deal. I can feel myself getting closer and closer but I am still putting in a sustained effort to get it done. Whatever is bothering you will eventually subside, come back, and subside some more until "you" are wholly relieved.

Simon, i know exactly where you are coming from. we all seem to have felt such suffering, it is why we came here, why we are interested in such practices. there is another way out, the oblivion you are craving, it is oblivion of feeling, not of sense and thought. simply get rid of the feeling part, don't throw it all away, there is simply no reason to rid yourself of all experience when it is possible to keep the wonderful part. We are all your friends, the mistakes of identity aren't your fault, you have always been innocent, your body is living in the wonderful actual world as we speak, you simply have to wake up from the daydream we are all convinced by from birth. please rethink Simon, why go down a path from which you can not return, first give this path a shot, follow it to its end, and then decide.

this path can make you look at life more deeply, you might start finding out that the human condition of malice and sorrow isn't quite so beautiful as it seemed under less careful scrutiny. but this careful scrutiny, the deeper understanding, that's the beginning of the end of the condition.

Couldn't go through with it. In a strange way I feel embarrassed about that.

I just read all the replies and am grateful for all the nice responses here.

What happened was that yesterday I reached emotions that I had buried deep inside me. Deeply buried they were manageable, but them coming up fully sent me into an awful state in which I wanted to end it all.

Fortunately this is over. The emotions are still there, but less intense.

I need to let this settle in for now, take a break.

Thanks all, I really appreciate the encouragement. And don't worry, I'm over the wanting to end it stuff.

Good.

Embarrassment passes away, just like the feelings of wanting to end it all have so remember this last few days and how you've had the opportunity to see all the stuff that's preventing you from being happy and harmless, and that includes towards yourself. It can be a tough ride, and there are plenty of us on here who know first-hand how you felt last night so don't ever feel like "ending it all" is the only option, or that you're completely alone in how you're feeling. There's so much more to this life, as much as that sounds like birthday card bullshit it's a fact that you can test and verify for yourself.

I didn't want to post anything on this last night 'cause there's literally nothing I could do to help, but it's great to see you've pulled yourself back up. Take it easy and remember that there's a lot of people on here who know what it feels like, for a lot of us it's the very thing that made us want to find out what the fuck is going on!

Peace.

Thanks Tommy, this is very encouraging. I truly appreciate all the support I've received here.

The interesting thing is that I feel fine today. I haven't felt bothered by those emotions. In fact, all day long they were gone and I didn't even think about it all. I just went for a nice long walk and greatly enjoyed it.

Now that I focus on it, the feelings have diminished a lot. It's like they're hardly even there. This is a huge burden that got lifted.

Again, thanks to you all! It was the helpful posts that really helped me to get through it.

Dark night --> equanimity, perhaps.

In any case, good luck with your practice (and life), and best wishes.

Glad to see you around. You made the right choice! Just a few points on how you can use this experience to benefit you:

- Remember what happened: you felt fine, then you felt truly awful, then you felt fine again. If you ever feel truly awful again, remember how it can so easily fade. No need to do something drastic if you can just wait it out.
- Remember what triggered it. If those things start triggering it again, remember what happened last time, and use that as intent to stop fueling it. Also the triggers are parts of 'you' that have been uncovered - you have a good amount of stuff to look at, now, though it might best be done after a break, as you said.
- Use the experience as intent to practice diligently, so that such an experience can never happen again, either to you (it won't if you practice, and it will become impossible once you're free to feel bad in any way at all) or to anybody else (your success is the best way to show others that are suffering that it is possible to end that suffering... and if you are not suffering you will better be able to help others who are).

Good luck, have fun... and if you think thoughts of ending it might come back, perhaps you should talk to somebody more experienced at dealing with those things before continuing to practice, since practicing might bring up some parts of 'you' that 'you' don't like at first (though eventually those parts and the dislike of them will both disappear).

Thanks.

I think that last night marked the end of the dark night for me. I'd been experience life in a dark night type of way for the last decade. It actually started when I got into spirituality and started making some progress.

It was heavy... and now it's gone! It was like I had one final dark night outburst and when I woke up today, things were different. I feel good. I've been happy and friendly all day and am full of energy.

Funny how that happened.

This is very helpful. At this point I'm certain that the awful stuff will never come back. My feelings and perceptions have changed in a way that I just know that it can't come back.

Instead of feeling awful I am now experiencing great enjoyment in life. I'm sitting here, happy. Feeling great. Not anything intense, just feeling good, happy.

Just as we suggested. We weren't making it up just to soothe you last night.

Similarly, there is a mode of experience possible that is fantastic beyond what you may be currently able to imagine. We aren't making that up, either.

I hope you find it.

that's great news. another tip: in the depths of the misery, you wouldn't have thought this possible, no? it seemed like there was just misery? isn't it remarkable how inaccurate that feeling was? feelings are not facts - it is not a good idea to base decisions on feelings. so, there is no need to take them seriously. don't blame yourself for having them (as that is essentially just another feeling), but no need to take them seriously either. instead, use the feelings to identify where the feeling comes from so that part of the identity (read: cause of suffering) can be dismantled. as the identity is finite, at some point there will be none left (and thus no suffering left).

Me too! Part of me wants to keep the feeling good I experience now, but hey, if that's the worst that's going on...

I'm noticing a lot of felicity in my experience. My guess is that as long as I correct the moments where I step out of that, it will increase. It has been increasing on it's own accord today anyway. As I understand from Richard, felicity is the first step on the path to a PCE. This then allows fascination and wonder to happen (step 2), which then turns into a PCE.

I feel like I don't have to do much at this point and since I'm going to rest for a while, it's the perfect moment to test that. I'll continue my practice after a nice period of getting rest and sleeping well. I really need that.

I certainly wouldn't have thought this possible! Feelings often are inaccurate indeed. I like the part about that there is no need to take them seriously, that loosens up things for me. I have a more relaxed attitude towards them now, while before I would be so caught up in them.

Simon, how have things been going for you? Care to check in?

Hi,

Things are fine, just have stepped away from it all for a while. All this practice stuff was getting too intense, what I need for a while is to relax and rest.

Thanks for your interest though!