On Realizing An Actual Freedom - Discussion
On Saturday the 29th of October 2011 at approximately 3pm, I became actually free[1].
The last few days have been wonderfully strange; it's like being born into a new world but without someone having to wipe your arse and change your nappy.
I deliberately left it a few days before 'coming out' but I'm confident now that the shift which occurred on Saturday afternoon isn't going anywhere. (Mainly because there's nowhere for it to go!) I've been trying to generate affect but there's no response whatsoever, there are residual affective overlays happening automatically in certain situations but the best analogy I can think of has been like a wave lapping onto the shore but not coming up far enough to get my feet wet.
Everything has the wonderful, fascinating directness to it that you get in PCE but now I see what people who've gotten here before me were talking about when they say that it's devoid of that "wow factor". There's a freshness to every moment which is incredible, everything is just continually new and it's possible to spend hours doing absolutely nothing 'cause there's no feeling of having to do anything.
To be more critical of this current experience, and by this I mean a careful analysis rather than finding faults, there is still the weird "shadow being" stuff arising and apperception is not experienced 100% of the time, although it is entirely possible to get back to the same stable clarity of the PCE by going through the arupa jhanas and out from the 8th (this was suggested by Nick yesterday and proved to be very effective in "clearing the boards" of residual being). The "shadow being" stuff is like the ghost of an affective feeling - for example, one of my cats knocked down a load of cups and plates I had sitting at the sink this morning, there was no internal activity, no feeling of irritation or anger, yet my face automatically went into a grimace and a strange, diffuse sense of what used to be irritation appeared but didn't actually do anything. It's hard to explain accurately without knowing what it's like, I thought I understood it pre-shift but I see now that I was wrong and how phrases like this could lead to confusion. Other than that, everything is just fine and it's a pleasure to walk around experiencing what this body experiences untainted by affect.
If this changes or the baseline drops to what it was before, you can be sure I'll update this as I'm not keen on publicly proclaiming attainments, particularly not without at least a few months of experimentation and testing, but this change is so clean and clear-cut from what's gone before that it makes me laugh to think of it going anywhere. A thought occurred about making this public so that others will be able to see that this is possible, sensible, very real and it reveals why it's so incredibly silly to argue against it on the basis of normal human expectations, the very expectations most of us saw shatter upon stream-entry. I too stood against this but can confirm that, if you drop all the bullshit politics about people involved in the AFT or whatever other belief-based knots people like to self-righteously tie themselves up in, this is genuinely a worthwhile goal to work towards and the arguments against it hold no water once you're here.
This is peace. This is now.
[1] I'll stick to using the term "actually free" for the sake of convenience.
The last few days have been wonderfully strange; it's like being born into a new world but without someone having to wipe your arse and change your nappy.
I deliberately left it a few days before 'coming out' but I'm confident now that the shift which occurred on Saturday afternoon isn't going anywhere. (Mainly because there's nowhere for it to go!) I've been trying to generate affect but there's no response whatsoever, there are residual affective overlays happening automatically in certain situations but the best analogy I can think of has been like a wave lapping onto the shore but not coming up far enough to get my feet wet.
Everything has the wonderful, fascinating directness to it that you get in PCE but now I see what people who've gotten here before me were talking about when they say that it's devoid of that "wow factor". There's a freshness to every moment which is incredible, everything is just continually new and it's possible to spend hours doing absolutely nothing 'cause there's no feeling of having to do anything.
To be more critical of this current experience, and by this I mean a careful analysis rather than finding faults, there is still the weird "shadow being" stuff arising and apperception is not experienced 100% of the time, although it is entirely possible to get back to the same stable clarity of the PCE by going through the arupa jhanas and out from the 8th (this was suggested by Nick yesterday and proved to be very effective in "clearing the boards" of residual being). The "shadow being" stuff is like the ghost of an affective feeling - for example, one of my cats knocked down a load of cups and plates I had sitting at the sink this morning, there was no internal activity, no feeling of irritation or anger, yet my face automatically went into a grimace and a strange, diffuse sense of what used to be irritation appeared but didn't actually do anything. It's hard to explain accurately without knowing what it's like, I thought I understood it pre-shift but I see now that I was wrong and how phrases like this could lead to confusion. Other than that, everything is just fine and it's a pleasure to walk around experiencing what this body experiences untainted by affect.
If this changes or the baseline drops to what it was before, you can be sure I'll update this as I'm not keen on publicly proclaiming attainments, particularly not without at least a few months of experimentation and testing, but this change is so clean and clear-cut from what's gone before that it makes me laugh to think of it going anywhere. A thought occurred about making this public so that others will be able to see that this is possible, sensible, very real and it reveals why it's so incredibly silly to argue against it on the basis of normal human expectations, the very expectations most of us saw shatter upon stream-entry. I too stood against this but can confirm that, if you drop all the bullshit politics about people involved in the AFT or whatever other belief-based knots people like to self-righteously tie themselves up in, this is genuinely a worthwhile goal to work towards and the arguments against it hold no water once you're here.
This is peace. This is now.
[1] I'll stick to using the term "actually free" for the sake of convenience.
Cheers Liam, I'll make it clear that I may be proved wrong at any time here or that the situation may change and I'll find something I missed along the way so remain skeptical of anything I say right now...
There is still this shadow being stuff to deal with but, as EiS said above, there's ways to deal with this through the jhanas. Also, apperception doesn't happen all the time yet, although I'd say a 90/10 split would be a reasonable approximation right now, so that indicates more to be done before it's all finished up.
Developmentally, I don't know what is possible but it's going to be exciting and fun to find out! Two years ago, I thought that enlightenment was something people like us couldn't attain and look where we're at now; an open discussion on the practical techniques which make it possible and lots of people testing, verifying and replicating the results!
Where do you think it is possible to go from here?
There is still this shadow being stuff to deal with but, as EiS said above, there's ways to deal with this through the jhanas. Also, apperception doesn't happen all the time yet, although I'd say a 90/10 split would be a reasonable approximation right now, so that indicates more to be done before it's all finished up.
Developmentally, I don't know what is possible but it's going to be exciting and fun to find out! Two years ago, I thought that enlightenment was something people like us couldn't attain and look where we're at now; an open discussion on the practical techniques which make it possible and lots of people testing, verifying and replicating the results!
my question is this: what practices did you use, which ones do you think were the most effective, which were you using leading up to and actually getting to AF?
If indeed this genuinely is AF! I'll remain happily skeptical until more time has elapsed and I can say with a degree of certainty, but for the moment I thoroughly recommend simply paying attention, a fascinated and curious attention, to the sense doors as much as possible. If you find you can't be attentive to the senses, find out why not and deconstruct the belief which supports this obstruction before returning to the senses again and again.
Walk around innocently observing everything, realizing that you don't actually know what anything is and naively appreciating the simple joy of sensate reality. The whole "fake it till you make it" thing makes sense more now, you aim towards experiencing the world in way which most closely imitates actuality and it will gradually reveal itself to the senses naturally. "You" need to realize that there is nothing "you" can do to make this happen, "you" don't really exist in actuality so trying to get a PCE or AF is counter-productive.
If you have access to the arupa jhanas then definitely make use of the techniques on actualizing the affective aspects. Clearly seeing how affect arises makes it much easier to see how it can be ended, look at how pleasant/unpleasant/neutral (having the potential to manifest as pleasant/unpleasant) feelings arise and disrupt the clean perceptual signal as an object passes through the sense door.
The most important techniques I've used so far were HAIETMOBA and the techniques on The Hamilton Project and Nick's own Down The Rabbit Hole blog, both of those are saturated with practical tips. Also, I've bookmarked a load of really good AF related links from this site which I can post if you want? It's mainly stuff by Tarin, Trent, Stef and Daniel which you'll no doubt already have read, but it's all worth re-reading regardless as there's stuff there for everyone.
It's absolutely possible but "you" need to know that "you" are surplus to requirements for this body to optimally experience life.
Again, as I've said repeatedly, I could be totally wrong and may have overestimated this but I'll happily come back and update the thread if this turns out to be the case. There's no other way to learn, I suppose....
I'd personally prefer that people wouldn't call it AF until they get rid of their "shadow being" completely.
Why the insistence on giving it a name until you are absolutely certain? My opinion: you're doing others a disservice. I find it confusing that you claim to be actually free but still grimace at your cat and feel hazy irritation or whatever. I find it confusing Nick claims to be actually free but is still getting weekly insights on the bus.
Please: call it virtual freedom if you want to call it something. When it is all perfect 100% of the time, and "being" is 100% gone, then call it AF.
Oh, and congrats on whatever shift you are currently enjoying
Why the insistence on giving it a name until you are absolutely certain? My opinion: you're doing others a disservice. I find it confusing that you claim to be actually free but still grimace at your cat and feel hazy irritation or whatever. I find it confusing Nick claims to be actually free but is still getting weekly insights on the bus.
Please: call it virtual freedom if you want to call it something. When it is all perfect 100% of the time, and "being" is 100% gone, then call it AF.
Oh, and congrats on whatever shift you are currently enjoying
Bruno Loff:
I'd personally prefer that people wouldn't call it AF until they get rid of their "shadow being" completely.
Why the insistence on giving it a name until you are absolutely certain? My opinion: you're doing others a disservice. I find it confusing that you claim to be actually free but still grimace at your cat and feel hazy irritation or whatever. I find it confusing Nick claims to be actually free but is still getting weekly insights on the bus.
Please: call it virtual freedom if you want to call it something. When it is all perfect 100% of the time, and "being" is 100% gone, then call it AF.
Oh, and congrats on whatever shift you are currently enjoying
Why the insistence on giving it a name until you are absolutely certain? My opinion: you're doing others a disservice. I find it confusing that you claim to be actually free but still grimace at your cat and feel hazy irritation or whatever. I find it confusing Nick claims to be actually free but is still getting weekly insights on the bus.
Please: call it virtual freedom if you want to call it something. When it is all perfect 100% of the time, and "being" is 100% gone, then call it AF.
Oh, and congrats on whatever shift you are currently enjoying
I can change the terms if you want. No biggie. But what do you make of these descriptions by Vineeto and Peter of which I would call the residual 'shadow being' upon becoming 'actually free':
SUBSCRIBER NO. 19: Post extinction of identity, how does one operate. Is there a complete break away from the pre-event order of things or does something still linger from the past?
VINEETO: Some things are very simple because the flesh-and-blood body knows how to do most things such as getting up in the morning, taking a bath/swim, making breakfast, answering the phone, typing words, reading and so on. The difference is that doing these things now is a play and a delight and no emotional interference ever occurs.
A lot of things are of course new and I am still finding out. As I said before, I only had a few interactions with identities, and living with two actually free men is an ongoing delight. Some remnant hangovers of my old identity, such as habitual patterns have already come up (Nick- shadow being) and are now in process of vanishing/ have vanished and I am sure some will still occur (Nick- this is also my experience). However, with no emotional ties to impede the operation of a bare awareness/apperception, this is a fairly quick and easy task. (Nick- also my experience)
SUBSCRIBER NO. 19: Does universe is infinite a certainty now? And can you explain about how do you know it with so much certainty.
VINEETO: It has been a certainty for me for a long time, intellectually understood at first, that there can’t be a ‘something’ let alone a ‘nothing’ beyond the imagined borders of the universe and any such ideas were experientially confirmed in my PCEs as being nothing other than human imagination in operation. However, about a week ago, I clearly experienced this consciousness being without limits and the vast stillness of the infinite universe became fully apparent. (Nick- This has also been my experience. I call that which is in the way of such an ongoing 'universe experiencing itself' to be the 'dust on the lens'. Although I continue to talk about it, I neglect to convey how drastically things have fallen away in the past 3 months) I then experienced it as a fact that I am this infinite universe experiencing itself as a flesh-and-blood conscious human being. This experience occurred again today but is not yet an ongoing moment-to-moment experience. (Nick- This is also my experience) Richard reported that it took him several years to realize the full depth and purity of an actual freedom.
It’s still early days. (Nick- indeed)
Cheers Vineeto
http://actualfreedom.com.au/directroute/19.htm#24Jan10
VINEETO: Some things are very simple because the flesh-and-blood body knows how to do most things such as getting up in the morning, taking a bath/swim, making breakfast, answering the phone, typing words, reading and so on. The difference is that doing these things now is a play and a delight and no emotional interference ever occurs.
A lot of things are of course new and I am still finding out. As I said before, I only had a few interactions with identities, and living with two actually free men is an ongoing delight. Some remnant hangovers of my old identity, such as habitual patterns have already come up (Nick- shadow being) and are now in process of vanishing/ have vanished and I am sure some will still occur (Nick- this is also my experience). However, with no emotional ties to impede the operation of a bare awareness/apperception, this is a fairly quick and easy task. (Nick- also my experience)
SUBSCRIBER NO. 19: Does universe is infinite a certainty now? And can you explain about how do you know it with so much certainty.
VINEETO: It has been a certainty for me for a long time, intellectually understood at first, that there can’t be a ‘something’ let alone a ‘nothing’ beyond the imagined borders of the universe and any such ideas were experientially confirmed in my PCEs as being nothing other than human imagination in operation. However, about a week ago, I clearly experienced this consciousness being without limits and the vast stillness of the infinite universe became fully apparent. (Nick- This has also been my experience. I call that which is in the way of such an ongoing 'universe experiencing itself' to be the 'dust on the lens'. Although I continue to talk about it, I neglect to convey how drastically things have fallen away in the past 3 months) I then experienced it as a fact that I am this infinite universe experiencing itself as a flesh-and-blood conscious human being. This experience occurred again today but is not yet an ongoing moment-to-moment experience. (Nick- This is also my experience) Richard reported that it took him several years to realize the full depth and purity of an actual freedom.
It’s still early days. (Nick- indeed)
Cheers Vineeto
http://actualfreedom.com.au/directroute/19.htm#24Jan10
SUBSCRIBER NO. 22: 6 – Peter, do you sense that your actual gravity center shifted to the heart/solar plexus now? I ask because you wrote to Subscriber No. 2 about this:
‘After the rudimentary microscopic backbone was formed, one of the very next cell types to transform from the next cell divisions were heart muscle cells, each one of which twitched such that as they began to collect together they eventually formed a pulsation or beating whole – the beginnings of a human heart, the essential blood pumping organ that gives vitality to a human body.’ (14.1.2010)
PETER: I see that my lack of clarity about this issue in the very first post to the Direct Route mail-out list has lead to a good deal of confusion, made even more confusing by my even more lack of clarity in the follow up post to Subscriber No. 10. (to No. 10, 17.1.2010)
Firstly it is good to put these posts in context in that they were both very raw in that they were written very soon after becoming actually free of the human condition. Whilst I had had some experiences of some minor remnants of the habitual patterns of previous behaviour prior to this (such as jumping from one topic to another in conversations or jumping from one thing to do to the next without fully completing the first instead of sensibly prioritising things to be done and re-adjusting my priorities when and as appropriate) experiencing the physical remnants of a previous very strong (12 year long) motivation still running as a physical sensation after becoming actually free was quite unexpected and at first confusing for me (Nick-shadow being).
Now that the physical remnants of ‘his’ habitual heart-felt feelings and compulsive drive about doing whatever ‘he’ could to bring about peace on earth have now finally disappeared, I can understand what was happening at the time and also understand why it happened. An illusionary identity, over a period of 60 odd years, is so real that it caused physical symptoms in the flesh and body – a tightening of the chest muscles, (Nick- shadow being) in this case. When the identity expired these physical reactions were still habitually at ‘work’ and thus some after-the-event tidying up is required (Nick- shadow being). A bare awareness or apperceptive attentiveness, does the trick far, far quicker than any identity-centred awareness could ever do. (Nick- This is my experience too)
Although I had an inkling of what to expect after becoming actually free because, although Richard reported how he experienced a ‘fine-tuning’ after the event ...
Richard: ‘...there needs to be a tidying-up of social mores and habitual patterns ‘after the event’ anyway ... an actual freedom does not miraculously remove every little detail. It does make the fine-tuning a breeze, though.’ Richard, List AF, No. 12b, 16.2.1999.
(Nick- this is also my experience)
... it still came as somewhat of a shock to experience it myself, hence the confusion that transpired in my writing. (Nick- this is also my experience)
What I find remarkable is that one correspondent was able to work out what was happening for himself, apparently by a clear-eyed reading of the answers to questions posted on the Direct Route mail-out, and subsequently archived on the AF website –
Subscriber No. 2: ‘As for Peter’s experience ‘around the heart area’, I suspect / speculate that it’s nothing more than a temporary physical hangover of the now-defunct affective faculty...’ (Nick- shadow being)(Message #8899 Yahoo Group Actual Freedom)
http://actualfreedom.com.au/directroute/22.htm#20Jan10
‘After the rudimentary microscopic backbone was formed, one of the very next cell types to transform from the next cell divisions were heart muscle cells, each one of which twitched such that as they began to collect together they eventually formed a pulsation or beating whole – the beginnings of a human heart, the essential blood pumping organ that gives vitality to a human body.’ (14.1.2010)
PETER: I see that my lack of clarity about this issue in the very first post to the Direct Route mail-out list has lead to a good deal of confusion, made even more confusing by my even more lack of clarity in the follow up post to Subscriber No. 10. (to No. 10, 17.1.2010)
Firstly it is good to put these posts in context in that they were both very raw in that they were written very soon after becoming actually free of the human condition. Whilst I had had some experiences of some minor remnants of the habitual patterns of previous behaviour prior to this (such as jumping from one topic to another in conversations or jumping from one thing to do to the next without fully completing the first instead of sensibly prioritising things to be done and re-adjusting my priorities when and as appropriate) experiencing the physical remnants of a previous very strong (12 year long) motivation still running as a physical sensation after becoming actually free was quite unexpected and at first confusing for me (Nick-shadow being).
Now that the physical remnants of ‘his’ habitual heart-felt feelings and compulsive drive about doing whatever ‘he’ could to bring about peace on earth have now finally disappeared, I can understand what was happening at the time and also understand why it happened. An illusionary identity, over a period of 60 odd years, is so real that it caused physical symptoms in the flesh and body – a tightening of the chest muscles, (Nick- shadow being) in this case. When the identity expired these physical reactions were still habitually at ‘work’ and thus some after-the-event tidying up is required (Nick- shadow being). A bare awareness or apperceptive attentiveness, does the trick far, far quicker than any identity-centred awareness could ever do. (Nick- This is my experience too)
Although I had an inkling of what to expect after becoming actually free because, although Richard reported how he experienced a ‘fine-tuning’ after the event ...
Richard: ‘...there needs to be a tidying-up of social mores and habitual patterns ‘after the event’ anyway ... an actual freedom does not miraculously remove every little detail. It does make the fine-tuning a breeze, though.’ Richard, List AF, No. 12b, 16.2.1999.
(Nick- this is also my experience)
... it still came as somewhat of a shock to experience it myself, hence the confusion that transpired in my writing. (Nick- this is also my experience)
What I find remarkable is that one correspondent was able to work out what was happening for himself, apparently by a clear-eyed reading of the answers to questions posted on the Direct Route mail-out, and subsequently archived on the AF website –
Subscriber No. 2: ‘As for Peter’s experience ‘around the heart area’, I suspect / speculate that it’s nothing more than a temporary physical hangover of the now-defunct affective faculty...’ (Nick- shadow being)(Message #8899 Yahoo Group Actual Freedom)
http://actualfreedom.com.au/directroute/22.htm#20Jan10
Perhaps we can call it 'early days af.' VF it is not. Malice and sorrow no longer arise. But I get the odd vibrations now and then and the thing I'm calling the 'dust on the lens' which seems to stand between 'the universe experiencing itself' as a permanent ongoing experience. It is easier now to have that as the ongoing experience. I just remember it and it is the experience.
Bruno, you may want to consider quotes like this:
He also wrote:
I do believe it is a valid question to ask what the relationship between this experience and what some of us are reporting is.
It is possible that it is the same (accounting for differences between Richard's mind and others' minds), but it is also possible that it is different, a different profile of "adaptation" effects owing to a difference in the method employed in trying to reach the goal of the end of suffering. Who really knows?
Hopefully we will eventually have the answer to this.
RICHARD: Yes ... and I have elsewhere used the words ‘mental anguish’ to depict the cranial agitation which went on for 20+ months after the identity who used to inhabit this flesh and blood body expired. Here is an explanation of why:
(Richard): ‘... in 1992, when the break-through into this actual world occurred, the following thirty months or so were a time of intense brain agitation – neuronal excitation – which I have described before as being ‘mental anguish’ (not to be confused with emotional anguish) so as to convey the intensity of the cognisance that no body in human history had ever lived this up until now. That this disconcerting perplexity was only cerebral was evidenced by no sweaty palms, no increased heartbeat, no rapid breathing, no palpations in the solar plexus ... none of those things connected with ‘being’. If I were to look in a mirror during that period and ask ‘who am I’ there was no answer – not even ‘the silence that speaks louder than words’ that I had been experiencing for eleven years – yet the answer to ‘what am I’ was patently obvious and undeniable ... I am this body.
(Richard): ‘... in 1992, when the break-through into this actual world occurred, the following thirty months or so were a time of intense brain agitation – neuronal excitation – which I have described before as being ‘mental anguish’ (not to be confused with emotional anguish) so as to convey the intensity of the cognisance that no body in human history had ever lived this up until now. That this disconcerting perplexity was only cerebral was evidenced by no sweaty palms, no increased heartbeat, no rapid breathing, no palpations in the solar plexus ... none of those things connected with ‘being’. If I were to look in a mirror during that period and ask ‘who am I’ there was no answer – not even ‘the silence that speaks louder than words’ that I had been experiencing for eleven years – yet the answer to ‘what am I’ was patently obvious and undeniable ... I am this body.
He also wrote:
It was extremely uncomfortable and very disconcerting, perplexing and bewildering.
I do believe it is a valid question to ask what the relationship between this experience and what some of us are reporting is.
It is possible that it is the same (accounting for differences between Richard's mind and others' minds), but it is also possible that it is different, a different profile of "adaptation" effects owing to a difference in the method employed in trying to reach the goal of the end of suffering. Who really knows?
Hopefully we will eventually have the answer to this.
Nikolai .:
End in Sight:
Tommy M:
On Saturday the 29th of October 2011 at approximately 3pm, I became actually free[1].
One possible theory that explains the origin of shadow stuff is that, the more gradual one's attainment, the less shadow stuff there will be (and the less time there will be before it's gone)...the shadow stuff would be an indication that one's mind / brain moved too quickly for there to be a full adaptation to this new mode of experience.
How long would you say it took you between beginning an effective practice aimed at this attainment, and this attainment?
These are my thoughts as well.
You know, Nick, that would mean that the practices on HP work too well!
Nikolai .:
It may also be conditioned by how you triggered the attainment, the type of practice leading up to it perhaps via the way the mind was conditioned to 'pay attention'. I speculate if I had taken on board the recent insight into what I have termed fabricated versus unfabricated paying attention, I would not have spent the past 3 months wondering what was going on.
This is possible too.
I have done a lot of fabricating (in terms of attention), and had a *lot* of shadow stuff at the beginning.
End in Sight:
You know, Nick, that would mean that the practices on HP work too well!
The HP can't take all the credit. I was taught those techniques by more advanced yogis than myself. They sure are effective though. Congrats on the big shift Tommy!
Nick
Apologies if I introduced any confusion, Bruno, I only realized I'd gotten into an out-from-control VF about two weeks ago and was calling that VF at first due to the same thing you've mentioned.
What happened for me was that I was sitting on a bus in the way into Glasgow, I was observing how the affective layer is overlayed onto the sensate experience, how "I" appear due to that happening, and how even pleasant or neutral feelings have a greasy layer of suffering covering them as soon as they develop into a full-blown emotional feeling. By seeing how this happened repeatedly, I could see it's arising and passing away, it's impermanence, it's emptiness and how this very feeling was that underlying dissatisfaction which caused so much suffering. Seeing this clearly caused it to cease, when that stopped happening so did "I" and since that moment I have been unable to generate any affect, experience any emotion, or locate any sense of being here in the way "I" was before.
The reason I went public about it so quickly was because it really is such a clean attainment and leaves no uncertainty. Even if it isn't AF/Anagami/Whatever I have no problem with telling everyone that I fucked up and made a mistake, there's nothing to lose from it and there is no sense of pride anymore anyway.
What makes you not-actually free one moment, but actually free the next?
What happened for me was that I was sitting on a bus in the way into Glasgow, I was observing how the affective layer is overlayed onto the sensate experience, how "I" appear due to that happening, and how even pleasant or neutral feelings have a greasy layer of suffering covering them as soon as they develop into a full-blown emotional feeling. By seeing how this happened repeatedly, I could see it's arising and passing away, it's impermanence, it's emptiness and how this very feeling was that underlying dissatisfaction which caused so much suffering. Seeing this clearly caused it to cease, when that stopped happening so did "I" and since that moment I have been unable to generate any affect, experience any emotion, or locate any sense of being here in the way "I" was before.
The reason I went public about it so quickly was because it really is such a clean attainment and leaves no uncertainty. Even if it isn't AF/Anagami/Whatever I have no problem with telling everyone that I fucked up and made a mistake, there's nothing to lose from it and there is no sense of pride anymore anyway.
Congratulations Tommy, enjoy your new found and permanent freedom!!
Reading your and Nicks posts has inspired me to get a BUS PASS. What the hell?
It's only a 15 minute walk to work, but it might be worth it if I get even a fraction of the results you two have.
Brian.
Reading your and Nicks posts has inspired me to get a BUS PASS. What the hell?
It's only a 15 minute walk to work, but it might be worth it if I get even a fraction of the results you two have.
Brian.
And let me tell you, I'm glad you've done this, Tommy. I've read a lot of your posts these last few months, and you always came across as someone I can relate to, like one of my old 'gang' so to speak. It makes me believe that if you can do this, so can I -- if I put in the work, that is.
Ha! Excellent, it's definitely doable and I'm happy that you've got some use out of my various ramblings. I take your comment as a huge compliment, it's true that if I can do it then anyone can 'cause I'm a normal guy with a family, a job and an IQ that wouldn't even get me a refusal letter from MENSA.
Looking forward to hearing more from you on here, John, hopefully you'll find something that works for you and get a practice thread going on here.
Peace.
Tommy, congratulations and thanks so much for posting this. It is just what I needed, I was a little disperse. I read this thread and got very inspired to return to serious practice. I went for a walk and had a couple of EE moments.
Stay well!
Stay well!
Congratulations, Tommy! I can't tell you how much this strengthens my faith and resolve. I hope to reproduce similar results
I've been enjoying reading you here and over at the HP and look forward to more of your insight!
I've been enjoying reading you here and over at the HP and look forward to more of your insight!
you have made two posts espousing this view, but i think that if you look around a bit more you will see that people aren't really limiting themselves in the way you think they are, there is plenty of examination of states achieved and methods used. I think the most common view among DhOers is that "late[1]" Actual Freedom is either an intermediary stage of enlightenment or the real thing, though there haven't been any surveys 
. but if you could be more specific in your criticism of the condition of actual freedom then the debate and understanding could be helped along more.
have you experienced actual freedom and then moved on? could you be a bit more specific in your criticisms?
[1] there is some distinguishing between "early" and "late" actual freedom, some have speculated anagami vs. arahant, some even think that "early" actual freedom is simply stream entry
. but if you could be more specific in your criticism of the condition of actual freedom then the debate and understanding could be helped along more.have you experienced actual freedom and then moved on? could you be a bit more specific in your criticisms?
[1] there is some distinguishing between "early" and "late" actual freedom, some have speculated anagami vs. arahant, some even think that "early" actual freedom is simply stream entry
