HI all, thanks for the terrific forum (and the outstanding book Daniel!)

I'm in the dark night and have an upcoming Goenka retreat. My dilemma is whether to spend the first 5/6 days doing Anapana meditation as per the set course, or to move straight into Vipassana (sweeping) after 2 days or so --my concentration is good. I don't know what Jhana territory I'm in, but this is not my concern.

My goal is stream entry. For that, I need quick passage through the DN using the tools available (anapana/sweeping) over a 10 day course.

Seriously need some advice here. Thanks.

Hi Bagpuss,

I am assuming you are booked for a standard 10 day and you have completed at least one 10 day previously?

If so, just for your info, the schedule of the course is start at 8ish on the first evening with anapana, you get old student instructions at 9am next morning which asks you to observe sensations on the upper lip plus anapana; giving prominence to the breath and asks you to try to maintain complete concentration for at least a minute. If you are not managing this the instruction is to use gentle but deliberate breathing until you can maintain for a minute then revert to natural breathing. Also you are instructed to be meditating every second of the 24 hours unless you are in 'deep sleep'. 4th day morning you switch to giving prominence to the sensations on the upper lip until the Vipassana session.

Instructions are slightly different if you are a new Goenka student or doing a Satipatthana or longer course.

For myself, I have found concentrating on sensations on the upper lip only more useful than sweeping for minute observation of the characteristics of each sensation. I find sweeping very useful when the volcano is erupting to get back to some measure of calm acceptance.

Hope this was helpful - have a very fruitful course

peace
H

Hi Hazel. Thanks for the reply. Yes I've been on a few similar retreats. My concern is whether spending 5 or 6 days on anapana will be helpful in getting stream entry.

1 argument is that by the time we start sweeping I should be pretty focused, but then my concentration is already good so I wonder if this is the most efficient strategy.

Hello,

Welcome.

You may find pages 8-10 of Ajahn Mun's biography (by Ajahn Bua) relevant to your current perception of DN, your "good concentration" and your pending Goenka retreat.


Best wishes,
Katy

hi BTG,

i think the amount of time that Goenka designates for anapana vs vipassana is fine. however, if you find that in the anapana period (day 1 to early day 4) your concentration seems very good--you're able to stay with the breath almost constantly--then it would be beneficial to also notice other sensations in the background (keep 70-80% of attention on the breath). this can keep your attention from getting too absorbed, keeping it constantly aware of the general overall present moment, and will slide nicely into effective scanning. if you notice that this happens anyway without much effort, that's great.

basically, understanding how to practice is not the hardest part, but rather getting yourself to actually do it constantly with 120% diligence. for fast progress you need to (at least be trying to) pay attention every single second of the retreat as long as you're alive and breathing, as if someone's going to shoot you if you become lax for just a moment.

tip specifically for the intense goenka retreat schedule: how much you force your body to go through pain is up to your judgement and tolerance level, but you should definitely force your attention to be working non-stop. so at times when you're deciding that something is too much for your body, deciding to give it rest, change posture, stretch, "take a break" etc. your attention should still be diligently exercised through every moment of it. see to it that when dealing with intense pain or discomfort you never go "ugh, this is too much, i need a short break" and stop paying attention altogether. because the retreat is quite physically demanding this becomes a common pitfall for Goenka students.

here are some posts i've written about making best use of the Goenka technique to progress towards stream entry:

-response to a dark nighter

-finding impermanence

-use of attention

-thread about goenka scanning vs noting

hope that helps
jill

Thanks Katy. Is your point to listen to the teacher, or to not get too caught in chasing Samadhi?

Looks like an interesting book by the way, im a bit pressed for time today but I've got it open for later reading!

Oh wow, i just struck gold! Thanks so much TJ! I'm tied up for several hours now but as soon as I get a chance im all over those linked posts!

I think your point quoted above is something I've really missed on my previous retreats.

I am not telling you to not get caught up in chasing Samadhi; you are your best, most tailored teacher. When I raised those pages with you, it was a general consideration of your mention of being in dark night, having good concentration, and entering 10-day retreat and seeing a potential parallel with Mun's own experience [as recounted, at least, by his student Bua].

Mun concludes that samadhi is affected by the mental activity engaging citta (heart-mind). Citta - after following Mun's vile and repulsive formations (which forms are common to the Suffering Knowledges stage of insight), is described by Mun to be unsettled, distracted and thus influenced by the formations. You mentioned being in the Knowledges of Suffering, so Mun's story is submitted to you as having some possible relevance.

Upon determining the unsatisfactoriness of the practice of following the mental formations, Mun then switched to extensively examining each body part from head to toe, and he determined this body examining practice to be calming and "the right one for the preliminary work of meditation practice" (quoted from top of page 10, Biography of Acaria Mun, by Ajahn Bua).

So, those pages are like a historical orientation of just such Goenka retreat with a possible parallel to your current abilities and stages.

Best wishes on your retreat opportunity.

[Edit: typos, Bua quote correction]

So, the Ajhan Mun reference is a "what not to do" based on his conclusions (not staying with dark night formations, stay with the bodily-oriented anapana).

Yep. I'm with you Katy, thanks

When I combine that with Jills advice also, it gives me a good game plan for the upcoming retreat. I guess Mun is a Thai forest monk? I'll be checking it out more when I get back with a bit of luck! Thanks again.

Yes, excellent. I think this is the primary task.

Having done a bunch of Goenka retreats, I would say that the differences in my specific technique (anapana, sweeping, or noting) wasn't nearly as pertinent* as the amount of effort, the correctness of effort, and right understanding (the three characteristics).

*[for getting through the dark night]

Well, I didn't make it. Though there was progress.

I went a bit overboard and probably did myself in a bit and am still recovering. I was doing 5hr meditations between the hall and my bed for most of the course. I didn't even take a walk till day 4, then I tried to keep some mindfulness on the breath while doing so even then. After the last sit, I was getting another hour in before sleep (which i had trouble with even being exhausted..).

I realised in day 1 that I had taken a step backward (probably new souroundings/routine etc) and had just made it out of the 3C's into A&P. In day 2, I hit the DN hard. The 2 or 3 times I'd scaled the DN up into EQ at home were a breeze compared to this. Full on nightmare sits -- I went through Dissolution a few times through day 2 and part of day 3 before I hit the real baddies. Then pretty much went through them all each time I sat. They presented like this (with some variation):

• Dissolution: A&P disappears, no focus, wandering mind. Can't feel the breath, a few annoying/nasty sensations around nose.mouth.
• Fear: Heart pounding in throat, prickly sensations as I sweat. Woke up from quite a ghastly nightmare that evening.
• Misery: Well it's just shit. Hating it, hating it, hating it
• Disgust: More hating, coupled with nausea
• Desire: Hard to tell difference, guess this was when misery was at it's peak
• Re-observation: Holy mother of god, WTF!?!

Once I hit re-observation fully (late day 4 I think, could be day 5) I seemed to have to relearn it and relearn it and relearn it over and over again. I must have been through it 12-15times on retreat. And it was truly awful. Here's a brief description:

Re-observation
Feels like someone has your head in a vice, and every in breath and outbreath turns the handle just a tiny bit more. Massive grapefruit sized swelling, pulsating ball of nastiness on right side of my head, feeling of utter despair and depression and a pretty strong urge to just go punch someone.

EQ
The first few times I made it out of re-observation into EQ I never really noticed the transition. I would get up from the sit, walk to my room and lay down to meditate and would "blip over" Re-ob straight into what I will later describe as EQ. Later in the course, i experienced the shift full on in the sit, but only once: It was like the clouds parting to reveal the sun. Sounds a bit airy-fairy but it's an accurate description. It doesn't happen immediately, but it's pretty fast. 5-10seconds maybe. Everything still hurts, but it's okay, removed or at a distance kind of.

While i was on retreat I had a kind of working theory that sitting made re-ob more likely to happen. I had massive upper back pain and elsewhere and could not sit for toffee in the mornings. If I lied on my bed, I would "blip over" re-ob and straight into EQ. It was only later in the day, 2pm+ that I could sit and get into EQ in the hall. When the mind had sped up, the body warmed up a bit etc.

Friday was the high point (day 7). EQ was very cool (i will describe this in another thread, as it could do with some verification and comment outside of this context) and I made it 2x into what I thought at the time was 4th jhana, but now have some doubts over. After this it went downhill though. I put it down to exhaustion. Im not as robust as I once was and the lack of sleep really began to take it's toll. I pretty much sat the last 2 days back in re-ob, albeit a slightly tamed down version. It seemed I could avoid it a little by really concentrating, but it was just so depressing to slip back.

Right now
My hope is that in a week or two when I've recovered (i heal slow!) my meditation will have improved greatly. This was the case on my previous 2 retreats. But right now, I'm finding it hard to feel anything, and am clearly in the DN again. I will just have to give it a little time to get sleep back up to normal level and feel well again.

I will post about EQ separately, though I'd welcome any thoughts on any of this stuff at all.

Thanks all,

I don't know exactly why I find that so extremely funny, but I do. Reminds me of some of my own experiences, I guess, and I can see that you "get it". Thank you for this richly textured report.

Could you update us on where you are with all of this "a week or two" later?

I enjoyed writing it

See here >>