Background

• Goenka student
• Sitting about 10mts or so
• High point of high EQ on last retreat
• Sitting 2hrs a day most days, minimum of 1

Here's a thread where I got some advice before my last retreat, and my last post in it is where I'm currently at (DN/Low EQ --I think!)

Today

Sat and did anapana for what seemed like about half an hour or so. Hard to get a feel for the breath, just the warm/cool sensation but it seemed enough and felt several dips/state shifts and various tingly body sensations to varying degrees of intensity as I sat. I find the first sit of the day generally a bit crap, my best sits are usually in the evening, lying down! I felt 2 or 3 times that I was "going down" but the heart begins to pick up speed and there is a little fear/anticipation of what will happen and it kind of dissipates.

Switched to sweeping. Hard to get much going. Predominant "thud thud thud" of the heart, which I think could be Fear (which might tie in with the difficultly in feeling much when i started) Slowly built toward nasty tension headache which on retreat I came to recognise as my major experience in Reobservation. Went back to anapana for last 5mins as I was getting very restless and really wondering why i was still sitting...

I've come to think that I can use anapana to reach my cutting edge, or close to it. Then only need to bring in sweeping to cut new ground or push that last bit.. On this sit, in retrospect i should just have stayed with the breath the whole sit, or at least untill i'd traveled up through the DN -- Have to see how this strategy works out this eveing.

Evening lay down

Minimal yoga this evening. Im so tired ALL the time since I came back from retreat. I fear it may take some time yet to come back to normal, but who knows how much the DN has to do with always feeling tired?

I experimented a bit in this sit:

My awareness of anicca was really strong before i started meditating tonight. Did anapana till it felt that there was enough full body awareness to sustain itself and the mind was pretty calm. Along the way there were the usual "angry buzz" flashes/dips well as some milder changes in state. Instead of moving into sweeping to build on the feeling of annica in the body I stayed with the full body awareness and "let it do it's thing". Its in this part of the sweeping I always feel intuitively the progress is being made, and on retreat, this was were I resided in what I believe was high EQ.

I tried not to push or concentrate too hard. Just to "notice" as clearly as I could as many of the tiny tingly sensations wink in and out as I could. Several times during what must have been at least 40mins of this I felt it build up to a high point, complete with a little excitement only to have the bodily sensations evaporate almost completely. They then cycled back up again to normal levels and after some time, the process repeated.

The last time i managed to stay very relaxed, and calm. there was a subtle shift, not like going from one stage to another, just an increase in awareness and the sensations were finer/faster, the mind calmer --though certainly not free of annoying sensations that would have been full blown monsters in the DN - they weren't nice, but were not a problem and soon wiggled off elsewhere.

On retreat my experience of high EQ was that those sensations didn't bother me even that much. I find I'm a bit confused in my practice right now. I hope im not back in the A&P (im pretty damn certain im not) but then this EQ does not seem to be the same as the one I encountered on retreat --makes me doubt both experiences!

As on retreat though, this state gets a little boring. The mind takes a few jaunts off in interesting directions but the awareness of sensations and the state in general does not seem to suffer from these little discursive breaks.

I don't know where I am, but it felt like staying with the full body awareness was a good thing.

Decided to sit with the breath for my whole hour this morning. This seems a better strategy seeing as how sweeping and meditation in general seems harder for me in the mornings...

Lots of "rising up" sensations that never really went very far but did up my awareness of the breath and bodily sensations. I wonder if I'm missing some state shift though an inability to "let go" at the top of these movements, or if they ARE the state shift / jhana change. -- I was quite disappointed when the familiar "thud thud thud" of my heart told me that losing the breath a few minutes back was indeed Dissolution and now i was in Fear --which meant all that jhana like stuff was just eh A&P sans lightshows and dramatic swooping sensations that I used to get during that stage.

No matter. I pushed on. Work done here will pay dividends come this evening when I get to sit again with a bit of luck. I had been in Re-ob for some time when the bell went, but decided to stay with it to see if i could see it "break". I made an effort to really experience it, to even enjoy it in a weird way. The tension in my head, pain in my body and irritation of sensations was nowhere near as extreme as on retreat anyway. I even got a nice resurgence of thudding heartbeat just to add to the fun.

It did break, but not as cleanly or quickly as on retreat. The tension slowly dissipated over what seemed like 2mins or so and most of the other stuff died down also to be largely replaced by A&Pesque vibrations but on the now somewhat familiar low EQ setting.

I was way past my hour (well maybe 8mins!) and lunch was calling. Hopefully this will set me up for progress later today.

I am guessing at all of this stuff clearly. If you have doubts about my diagnoses I'd love to hear them!

/BTG

Managed to find an extra hour this afternoon...

Laid down and almost immediately had an intense/painful sensation near the corner of my nose that grew and grew the more i tried to breathe equanimity into it. Again I tried to really experience this unpleasant sensation. I had to focus mainly on the peripheral body sensations as i breathed to really experience it but it didn't last long.

Less than 2mins in this was replaced with a very brief bit of nasty tension in the temples which in turn was replaced with the beginnings of the "fine fizz" coursing through the body. For a long time it took effort to maintain, in the last 20mins or more it was totally effortless. Just laying there trying to really notice how it felt, how changing it was. Several times it built up a bit then either evened out or dropped down a bit again and for much of the time i still had a semi-irritating bit of tension over the right eye (which i was able to consciously relax with reasonable success after some experimentation.

There was a TON of distractions: low flying aircraft, neighbours cars, kids coming home from school, my dogs barking at some other dog outside.. sheesh.. i can't say i was imperturbable, but damn nearly...

/BTG

Sat (or rather laid) for an hour and a half this evening.

Intense nasty sensation below mouth -- did a little nasty wiggle round up to my lip then a bit of a headache then into fine fizzing fun.. nice. Really "blipped over" the nasty bits --took all of about 2mins.

The EQ took quite a bit to get going though. I had to sweep for a bit to kick things into gear but once it was well established I just stayed with it effortlessly. Is this high EQ or some kind of induced jhana? My reasons for thinking the former are my concerted efforts to break it down and examine it bit by bit both choicelessly and when opportunity presents (for eg, when a sensation that would normally have caused me trouble in earlier stages presents) with some degree of precision. The fine fizz / energy stream seems to form the basis of the experience with more easily perceived individual sensations arising and passing away on top of that. There's a feeling of ease, with occasional "rising ups" as awareness increases and oddly in this particular sit, a bit of a concentration headache i was not able to entirely relax away --im very tired today, which could account for it.

It feels like I could stay in this experience forever. It takes no maintenance, just a little effort to remember to pay attention and not let the mind wander off to far. It doesn't really feel like any progress is being made. Except for maybe one point where there was a particularly big "rising up" which seemed like it might want to peak at some unknown "event" but never did (it just kind of petered out, leaving me with increased awareness only)

On the upside, it's left me in a great mood (most of the day actually) which makes a damn change!

As I suspected, I had to start from scratch again this morning. Soon after starting anapana I got the thudding heart as well as tightness in the chest and a feeling of breathlessness for much of the sit. This moved on briefly to irritating sensations in the forehead and top lip and then into crushing tension headache, thudding, almost overwhelming urge to just get up etc etc.

It did start to ease off at the top of the hour. It was still there, but felt "like the worst was over". Unfortunately this really was all I could do so I didn't wait around much past the hour to enjoy the dissipation of these sensations though I very much believe they would have led to low EQ and onward if I had. Certainly judging by past experience anyway.

/BTG

Hard to know what to make of my afternoon lie down...

Little headachy/nasty bit at the start then sweeping till the body sensations seemed self sustaining. Mind drifted off quite a bit during this scanning session and whole body awareness. No real dips / rises or anything else much to report except right near the end a brief burst of really intense unpleasant sensation on the face. Just like I'd have associated with DN stuff I seem to get but right in the middle of what I thought was EQ.

Does that happen? The only thing I can think of is

a) yes, that sometimes happens
b) I was in the A&P, not EQ

based on my current cycle I'd say the former, but based on actual experience the latter is quite possible no?

/BTG

how is your off-sit daily life awareness going?

Hi TJ, thanks for reading my practice thread. Appreciated.

Im slowly getting over tiredness, so like my practice, my daily life awareness is picking up. It's not as strong as when I was in the A&P but it's there whenever i notice it. When i sit, walk, lie, read, listen --only when im doing something really hectic do I lose the (now more subtle) vibrations in the body.

I often find Im meditating when not meaning to. Just lying down in the evening sometimes sends the awareness spinning up to high gear all by itself.

Today I am majorly tired again, and my awareness is low. By low I mean that I can feel it constantly though, just not as strong as it gets sometimes.

/BTG

Definitely a less progress filled day today.

I laid down for an hour and only made it up into what seemed like a tamer version of what I have labeled reobservation. I've noticed I deal with the DN nanas much better laying down! Mild tension headache, mild thudding of the heart -- took ages though, and much of the first half hour was quite pleasant. Probably A&P/concentration effects from the anapana. I only switched to scanning when the breath seemed to vanished for the 2nd time and did not come back.

Got up after an hour for the bathroom then continued.

After 10mins the quite harsh bodily sensations of scanning experienced as clear pinpricks, quite widely spaced over the areas being scanned and in the background of the rest of the body gave way to the "fine energy stream" and the tension in my head dissipated. Finally!

I think I mentioned i'm seriously tired today. After 45mins of the 2nd half of my 2hrs tonight I stopped. I read about meditating 18hrs a day on retreat etc but this seems madness to me, i've done this and it just makes me ill. Does tiredness play a major roll for others or is this something that affects few?

This afternoon I laid down and did anapana for an hour. It seemed to get me up to good speed but not into any new territory. I got the tudding heart, then some irritating/insistent sensations inside the right ear, throbbing pain in the hip and thigh and had to play "hunt the breath" for a bit.

After an hour I switched to sweeping and built up to prickly semi-unpleasant bodily sensations as I scanned and at the top of the 2nd hour a lot of tension across the forehead.

Tension
This is far from something new, but I have not often explored it. The tension feels like a tightness of the skin across the forehead from eyebrow to eyebrow (this is not always the same, on retreat this morphed into a melon sized swirling lump on the right side of my right eye which is where i usually get this feeling).

Today I explored it. I tried to feel exactly how it felt. Was it deep, shallow (it was kinda shallow), how long was it, was it stable, moving, moving slowly or quickly, etc. It was not the dramatic experience of on retreat but it was interesting nonetheless. It kind of moved to a more concentrated thin vertical line just to the right of centre. It seemed to have all the same amount of power as the more diffuse feeling but all contained in this little spot.

I continued to gently be aware of this and to explore it and that kind of dissipated and moved (or perhaps reappeared, my attentions was being challenged by kids returning from an outing at this point) to the top of my head in a wide band from 2inch above one ear, to 2inch above the other. It seemed like if I followed this it could prove really interesting. I can only speculate though, because my kids got a bit more insistent in their coming home noise at that point and I had to stop.

I don't know whether this is significant or not, but it did not seem like I made it anywhere near EQ this sit.

Hectic evening. Got an hour and a half in though;

Did anapana right up till the very end. Went through what I've come to think of as my most common experiences of the DN - Nice one pointed fizzy concentration -> where'd that breath go? And oh look, a nasty sensation! -> Thumping heartbeat, good news! Now I know where I am for sure.. -> confusion, confusion, confusion -nasty sensations, beginnings of headache etc. In retrospect desire for deliverance and reobservation can be told apart (at least today) but at the time I was unsure till i got the real full on RO headache combined with thumping heart and nasty sensations.

I never really made it out of of RO. At least the headache never went and the nasty sensations kept making little guest appearances every now and again. Funny though, it really wasn't so bad and I feel quite good now.

Got to kneed some dough for tomorrow --hopefully get a couple of hours in the afternoon at my mums house while she's at work. Nice and quiet!

Got some time in this afternoon. Not much to speak of really, but I did have a pretty interesting anapana experience while waiting for a pizza to arrive

After the first sit (about 30mins) i stopped to order pizza and decided to try and keep mindfulness of the breath while waiting. Instead of focusing on a small spot beneath the nostrils, i allowed my attention to take in the "whole body breathing". The anapana spot, the abdomen rising then falling, the shoulders, spine chest all moving. It was quite an education! I felt the "rhythm" of it and it seemed like this might be the way to jhana, as i got all over body coolness/tingling/pleasure quite quickly and unlike when I do anapana most days it did not feel like I was doing vipassana practice but samatha practice --something that seems to be hard for me to nail down.

I'll experiment a bit with this when it feels right again. Don't want to sidetrack insight practice in favour of a samatha tangent though.

My vipassana ended with me trying to explore the throbbing tension in my forehead. It didn't move around much, but did morph shape a few times --(like it was trying to escape!) but I left my sit feeling I'd not really got very far.

Now my body is a bit healed after retreat and Im a bit less tired it seems I might move back to sitting rather than lying. I need a little more intensity, alertness as I sit.

I wasn't going to sit last night but in bed reading I kept getting DN like sensations and strobing vibrations and when I did try to sleep this made it pretty hard.

So i focused on the all over body awareness and used the breath as an anchor. Not really doing anapana, but not sweeping either. I traveled the whole DN and broke into unmistakable low EQ (i say this due to the passing of Re-ob, and aknowledge im no exactly qualified to judge here! but nonetheless..) - I had to leave it as I felt exhausted. Looked at the clock and no wonder, I'd been at it 3hrs...

Time flies.

Sat for an hour this evening and made it up to Re-Ob. Lots of tension in the head, both on the corner of eyebrow and crushing temple pressure (but really not so bad as it has been in past days). Continued after the bell, and this is where it becomes a little more interesting.

Though i felt the tension headache lift (what I've come to recognise as moving past RO) a lot of pain and tension remains - it's okay, but it's not conducive to building the burgeoning feeling of EQ. So as I get a lot of pain in daily life from sitting Im on a meditation stool. I get up and, trying to keep the mindfulness going move to the bed. The remaining tension evaporates and I start building on the vibrations of low EQ. Eventually these vibrations are extremely fine, and self sustaining - what I am calling in the absence of correction high EQ.

I stayed with it, explored it. The "swirly lumpy tension thing" on the side of my head waxed and waned a bit and i gently explored that from the periphery, as well as trying to clearly see the arising and passing of tiny fizzy sensations as fast and as many as possible moment to moment.

It seems general tension caused by posture can hamper the move from Re-Ob to EQ. I've also noted that RO is often stronger, and more of a git when sitting rather than lying. Though not today.

I know what my experience tells me, but i'll have to see if this starts to repeat a bit before Im happy with it...

I think I pretty much started out in Low EQ this evening. I've been feeling strong vibrations all day, and doing yoga before my sit (lie down) was very pleasant as I could really feel the flow of the asanas AND the vibrations as I did them --not an uncommon thing for me but it's not happened so strongly for a while.

As soon as I lay down I could feel a very strong "river" of vibration in the chest. Once I'd established some concentration (managing to pretty much cover the body with it) this took little time to build up to to self sustaining vibrations. For ages I actually thought I was in the A&P as I did have a few very minor dips but in retrospect that does not seem so likely. I got some annoying sensations which reinforced my fear that I was about to have to climb the DN to EQ but they were just annoying sensations. They didn't take on nasty little lives of their own and kick my arse black and blue as they often do in the DN. They were kind of interesting and benign in irritating kind of way.

Near the top of the hour there was a slow shift and the vibrations became ultra fine. I felt good, and was (as I had been alol along I hasten to add) trying as hard as I could to see as many as clearly as I could and really feel out the vibrations underlying the sensations --it certainly felt pretty close to the high point of my recent retreat, just not as intense.

2 possibilities i think:

• This was A&P / Mild DN / EQ
• Low EQ / High EQ

I think the latter, but the former would be pretty good too. Either would certainly match up to my past retreat experiences where it's takene me a couple of weeks to get back up to speed after the burn out and regain what I learnt on retreat. I either blipped over the DN, or went straight in at EQ.

I've been in an equanimously good mood all day. Mrs Bagpuss said I was a "pleasure to be around" --a comment that you'll have to trust would have been unthinkable this time last year

I wouldn't bet money on my own diagnosis. We'll see how this plays out over the next few days. Maybe I'll drop back down again. I don't really know whether expecting to abide in EQ is even realistic, maybe I just cycled up to it during the day and hit formal meditation at just the right moment. Still, good stuff.

Got an hour in this morning as Mrs Bagpuss took the kids into town shopping (teachers strike today..)

Seems I went straight into EQ again. This time even more cleanly. Did plenty of anapana at the start as Im never as "up to speed" in the mornings and that soon had me feeling like i was where I should be. Did sweeping for the remainder of the sit, with extended periods of full body awareness trying to be as clear and fast as possible in noticing all the tiny sensations.

All the nasty sensations including pressure at the temples and forehead came up from time to time but they did not bother me. My experience certainly seems to match what I've read about the DN vs EQ - etc. In the DN it's not that the sensations themselves are really intense/painful/etc, it's the minds perception of them - This becomes very evident in EQ when the same stuff presents, but is not even a small issue.

Some minor successes in relaxing/channeling tension in the head away.

I kind of have this nagging doubt about where I am. But think that's just my confidence perhaps as with all the DN experience over the past month it seems inconceivable that I could be sitting there in the A&P and not moving forward into the DN. And if that's right, then wehre else could I be but in EQ?

Another slightly odd one...

Seemed very much like I went straight into EQ again. Pretty much the same experience I've had every time I've broken out of RO into EQ but it appears Im done having to redo the DN each time I sit. But...

After quite some time (guess maybe 30/40mins) i did get one sensation that really was very DN'ish - dominating my whole experience, insistent, uncomfortable and increasing in "volume" --eventually it did go.

Also, I have started to experience quite a bit of tension in the head (notably across the forehead, tonight in a wide band covering the entire forehead) that I can channel somewhat and ease somewhat if I really try, but I had thougt this kind of thing wouldn't happen in EQ.

This morning was good. Very good.

Did anapana/fullbody awareness for the full hour.

Quickly got access then over some time the "fine fizz" built up. The most noticeable / interesting thing about this sit was that I very clearly noticed something that I've seen before: That when in EQ I experience subtle/gentle state shifts many times, each time my awareness becomes finer, and more inclusive. The odd thing is that this happens almost exclusively when my mind has wandered briefly --it's like my mind needs to distract itself for the shift in perception to occur.

These shifts started with a really big one then continued over the hour many times - maybe 8-12 of them. I wondered if the "shift" was actually me perceiving the "thought" but have put that to one side, because although it makes sense from one point of view, it does not gel with the very noticeable shift in perception each time. If it was just noticing thought as more of a tangible thing, than surely the shift would not occur?

Again there were some DNesque like sensations, but they had no teeth. Just kind of interesting the way the same stuff comes up again and again for me, but now I see them very differently.

My practice feels quite a lot like the DN but with a more adjusted attitude toward these sensations this evening.

I didn't have much of the stateshift fun of this morning but did have a lot of odd little painful sensations, occasionally clusters of them, and sometimes A&P like shudders --though I think it was actually pretty cold and those were indeed shivers, just experienced in an enhanced kind of way. Quite pleasant really.

In the DN, the temple headache and thumping heart have me pretty much unable to do much more than observe. I generally give up sweeping or any thought of the breath when it's really in full swing. Where I am now, these same sensations feel distanced but quite clearly perceived. I suspect there is much to learn here.

Anapana all the way this morning, as has become my custom. Seems my morning sits are way better than the evening. A complete swap around from before my last retreat.

As happened yesterday morning I had many subtle state shifts, quite often but certainly not as exclusively as yesterday, when I had drifted off into mini-daydream. I also had multiple instances of "sinking", where I felt that If I could just let go, I'd be done. Although I think Im certainly getting less fearful of legging go, I still find I can't quite follow the feeling to its conclusion. Like the other state shifts though, after each time I was in a noticeably more perceptive state.

I read somewhere here that EQ was akin to Samatha practice. This makes so much sense to me.

The Observer

Right near the end I gently tried to explore the wide band of tension in my forehead. as I've begun to wonder if that is my sense of self. See End in Sights excellent post and discussion on letting go. I thought "this tension can't be me, 'cos I'm observing it" and I very slightly felt something else deeper, behind that forehead tension somewhere and I thought "well that can't be me either" and then.......

I got a very uncomfortable feeling I would be hard pressed to describe any better than "unsettling". The bell went at this point and as our neighbours, the royal military academy had started firinng canons over the back of my garden I stopped.

Seems like something well worth investigating next time.

PS: A note on anapana -> at somepoint during the sit it really seems superfluous to requirements. So mostly i drop it and only come back to it if I remember and care.

The presupposition behind this (that you have a particular, singular sense of self) is standing in the way of understanding the experience of having a sense of self.

As you have stated this more than once, perhaps a discussion would be helpful? How do you think about your sense of self?

Hi EIS

I guess I don't really think about my sense of self other than as something I have not really been able to casually detect, and something I think is interesting.

Im not sure how to answer your question...

Well, let's start here: in the band of tension across your forehead, do you detect a sense of self? If you have some ambivalence about whether you do or not, why?

No, I don't. Just a band of fairly strong but not unpleasant tension. I don't feel any sense of self that I can think of normally.

Does the tension bother you?

If so, isn't there a sense of self involved (the imputed 'self' that is bothered)?

If not, how can you call it tension?

EDIT: Also, it could be helpful to simultaneously consider the same questions applied to a different case:

The tension bothers me in that it feels odd to have it there in such an otherwise equanimous state. A bit like an itch - i can leave it well enough, but i kind of want to scratch it as well. And yes, something has to be bothered, so that must be my 'self'.



Im not sure what that was about but would guess maybe the unsettling feeling was the perception self?

I hope im not being to thick headed with this stuff EIS. I appreciate your time and help, but I seem to miss a lot of the more subtle stuff people talk about here.

My suspicion would be that noticing that you are missing some subtle stuff is a far better position to be in than failing to notice that you are missing anything. The maps describe the transition from each stage to the next as exactly this kind of noticing that you are missing something. And what better way to get better at this than to do exactly what you are doing, which is practicing diligently and engaging in noble conversation with the sangha? I say, keep up the good work!

A sense of self.

It is possible to recognize "this is a sense of self! this is an identity!" and simultaneously recognize that a sense of self is not actually a real self (which is why I often write 'self').

If you say "I watch this sensation and see no sense of self in it, because I'm observing it!" that is not pure insight into the anatta characteristic as such, that is a kind of dissociation on top of whatever insight there may or may not be.

If you reflectively say "This sense of self can't be a real self for me!" that is the beginning of deep insight.

When you can see that directly and non-intellectually...good things lie in wait.



Whatever it was about doesn't matter here.



Investigating this until you can directly see that the unsettling feeling is a sense of self (because the unsettledness and unpleasantness of the feeling is the very same thing as the 'self' who appears to experience it) will bring you to the kind of insight that will really lay the foundation to relieve suffering.

Keep in mind that it's possible to say "there is this feeling of unsettledness, but no one to be bothered!" Remember to investigate the *feeling* of unsettledness, not the high-level reflective reaction to it ("I am equanimous / not equanimous towards this feeling", or "This feeling is observed as if there is / isn't a 'self' observing it"), which is a separate thing, and which happens after the feeling.

So, having said all that, to what extent do you see that feelings that are unpleasant are better characterized as "unpleasant-to-me"? If I told you now, "I've been leading you around in circles just to see whether you'd believe me!", what would your opinion on all this be? Can you explain it in your own words?



This isn't a debate or academic discussion; we're just talking about this to see whether it can become clear to you. Quickly or slowly....

Keep in mind that this issue is much simpler and much more straightforward than it may appear to be at first. Expecting it to be complicated may be causing you to miss the big picture (and goading you into looking for the answer in a place that does not hold it).

Thanks WTS, it beats the hell out of anything i've ever done with this life for sure!

I'd be interested to find out why. Calmly interested. Some time ago I would have been furious to have had "my time wasted" but right now i'd automatically assume there was good reason and start trying to figure it out and learn the lesson. You'll have to take my word for it that this is an amazing thing for me in itself. I've wrestled all my life with anger, impatience and other 'negative" emotions --these days, bar the odd thing here and there i'm very even tempered, patient and forgiving.

Unless you tell me to ignore all of your other comments in your reply as they're just leading me around in circles, I need to spend some time reading and rereading what you've written EIS. I don't want to ask you to explain until I've made a much greater effort to understand --it's coming up for dinnertime in the UK / kids are home etc. But i'll get to it with some peace and quiet later oon this evening.



Yep, that'd be me all over. I'm a very black/white kind of person normally but throughout the whole process I've always expected stuff to be more than the actual reality of it.

I'll try to practice before I respond again. My evening sits are not as illuminating as my morning sits but hopefully some interesting stuff will come up.

Many thanks again,

What I meant was, apart from taking what I've said as true just because I've said it, what would you say to all this?

Obviously I'm not leading you around in circles.



Sounds good.

Okay. I hope these responses make sense!


Completely understood.



I can already say that I think, but im pretty certain I don't understand it directly. To get there, should i keep recognising the senses of self that come up?



You're talking about the same thing here right? So the answer is yes, keep investigating these senses of self?


Understood. I come from a Goenka background so I will try to see the impermenance of these sensations as Im kind of tuned into noticing change.



This is very interesting. I've talked a bit about this in my updates. I have many of the same sensations now that I had in the DN, but they are experienced entirely differently. So "me" is changing / different. So feelings are just feelings, but my sense of self interprets them and reacts to them and causes less or more suffering depending on what's going on with that sense of self?

It depends on where the difficulty in understanding the issue is arising. If it's in recognizing what things are senses of self, you should investigate that. If it's recognizing that these senses of self are not-self, straight-up vipassana is good for that (no need to exaggerate the observation of the anatta characteristic...the recognition will come in time just via close observation of experience).



Yes.



Not quite.

Feelings (as in emotional states, tensions, etc.) are all senses of self. As the feeling changes, the sense of self changes. But, there is no sense of self independent of that...one cannot have the feeling without the sense of self).

(There are physical sensations that underlie feelings, and it is these physical sensations which remain as the various senses of self proliferate and die around them, but they are (surprisingly) extraordinarily hard to discern.)

Put very simply, the feeling of "urgh, dislike!", is a sense of self (it is implicitly "urgh, disliked-by-me!")



Simplified, the first perceptual habit, right after the stimulus, before the chain of proliferating thoughts, is generating

* some kind of "imaginary" physical tension, and
* the experience "annoying bark sound".

These are the basic components of senses of self. The tension is tension-to-'you'. The annoying bark sound is annoying-to-'you'. The tension and the annoyance *are* 'you'.

What do you think?

(EDITED)

A simpler way to put this may be...anxiety (for example) is not best described as a feeling of anxiety (which you then attribute or don't attribute to a self, depending on your level of insight), but as a feeling that there is a self afflicted by anxiety (which you then may or may not have further self-referential thoughts about, depending on your level of insight).

Responses on the way! First, update on my evening sit.

The evening sits are always rougher these days. I still think i'm most likely not back in the DN due to the reaction/experience of the unpleasant sensations but I do tend to get a whole bunch more of them in the evening!

Interesting things of note for this sit:


Trying to explore the tension in my forehead led to various shifts in location - mostly to the temples, then for a while at the back of the head as i tried to explore what it was that was observing the tension. It was a little disorientating at times and mostly there was still some tension in the forehead even when it had moved (like it spread, rather than packed up and left). Various "slightly dizzy" experiences were noticed. In the end I seemed to progress better by just leaving it be.

By the time i'd dropped focusing on the breath entirely and was just lying there in full awareness things were well past the nasty sensations and started to get quite interesting. Some long periods of falling (or rising, hard to tell) where I seemed calmer and more able to let it happen than previously. The result was various levels of greater perception (at least it seemed that way). One time the body sensations almost entirely disappeared and there was a very great clarity of mind --but not a patch on the PCE like experience of retreat. (and thankfully not the painful entry to it either).

Several times I felt like I was falling downward, but at a fairly steep sideways angle. but oddly, at the same time, my other side was either rising, or staying where it was. Like one half of me was slipping down a slope. Around this same time, but not necessarily at the same time (i cant remember now!) there were some odd shifting sensations. Like the body-mind was phasing in and out of some other dimension --reminded me of star trek when they can't quite "beam up" --could be a load of old tosh, but it seemed significant to me at the time.

I can see clearly that there is no self. At least intellectually. I can also not find a self in any experience I'e had doing vipassana. It helps me intellectually to have a much clearer idea of what is meant by "sense of self" but I understand your point of there being no need to do much else than observe reality closely.



I like simple. This is fantastic.



I think this is wonderful. I thought i understood this stuff pretty well but this makes things so much clearer! Im not sure how to use it in my practice, but its quite beautiful all by itself. Thanks for pointing it out to me

It will help you understand one possible goal of practice better, which is freedom from all these lousy 'self' experiences.

Also, in general, recognizing this helps, even if the recognition is only in the background (it helps your mind figure out what things can be let go of, so it can actually let go of them).

Finally, it may help you make sense of this:



I assume it was a lot less tension-filled than your current experience, as well as a lot less 'self-y'.

Things can get a lot clearer and better than that...

Yes. This makes much sense. I do feel i have so much more of a grip on this stuff now. Thanks again.



Absolutely. It was amazing. I've put off even investigating AF practices for the time being as I don't want to get distracted from attaining stream entry. It may well be that I take a close look at them sometime later though. I'd certainly like to have that kind of PCE experience be the norm - just astonishing stuff.

Not feeling so well today. Huge waves of tiredness but sat anyway.

Seemed that I was going through jhana-like stages in my anapana and then spent a lot of time generally lost in the sensations of the whole body. Nothing very significant or different to report. I kept this up for almost 2hrs and although not a particularly significant sit, it still felt like it was worth the time.

One lesson learned was that when I finally realised that anapana/full body awareness was not really doing it for me this time, sweeping really enlivened my meditation. Next time i feel im going nowhere, or have a lot of tiredness/dullness to combat, i need to ramp up the awareness of anicca with my sweeping.

I've begun to think that my anapana is taking me more into a jhanic like practice at the possible expense of vipassana -- all my pracitce i've struggled to get into jhanas as my mind is so intent on insight practice, but now in EQ it seems the jhanas may be opening up to me --both good and bad news.

If im right (if..) the good news is well, the jhanas are becoming available to me! The bad news is that I've wasted a few sits thinking im in high equanimity when in all likelyhood i've just been in 2nd or 3rd jhana.

The telling point was just now when for the second time today all bodily fizz dropped and stuff got very calmly clear. I can't recall if it's bodily bliss/rapture that drops last or if it's happiness and am off to bed (wow, equanimity... i really don't care to find out!) but if it's body, then a) im dropping into 4th and b) it's not as exciting as would have thought. It's good though. Cool, calm, clear.

I felt the fizz start to creep back as I thought about impermenance in the bodily sensations (my goenka training) but when I inclined the mind to drop it, it dropped again -- if it is 4th, then it feels almost like "not meditating".

Eventually I launched into sweeping and what seemed to be low EQ -- heavyish vibrations, a few odd/irritating sensations but clearly headed in the right direction. I need to experiment with all of this a bit more tomorrow.

Been really tired today. Reckon it was my 2000m row and bunch of chest presses i did on friday after such a loooong break from anything other than yoga. Reading about my ayurvedic body type currently in the hope i might work on energy levels through diet and better tuned yoga.

You might be heading in the general direction of a PCE (especially if, as you said about the last such experience, you could have gotten up and taken a walk). Or, maybe not.

How did this experience occur?

Vipassana *can* cause PCE-like things (or PCEs) to happen. I experienced that many times.

When I was done listening to my audio book in bed I decided to experiment and see if I could repeat the experience. I did. Here's how it went:

After a good few minutes trying to get access concentration and keep it the all over body fizz started and with just a little help by thinking about the parts that were not covered by this feeling i managed to suffuse the body with it. It's quite clean at this point, and the breath at the nostrils is very clear and focused.

I know that the next step is to drop the continued attention to the object so I just think about it becoming automatic. After a little time there's a shift, and it does become automatic. Now it's easier to concentrate, the focus on the breath is not quite effortless, but it's approaching that description for sure.

I don't feel ecstatically happy so dropping happiness doesn't seem very intuitive. Instead I just focus on deepening the experience. It's very clear that the bodily bliss is linked to the inbreaths and outbreaths -- after some time there is another shift and things feel different and I'm able to concentrate on the body feelings better than the breath.

I know that I want to drop the body feelings but don't know how, so I just think about what it felt like before, how it felt to not have that body-bliss/fizz stuff going on and after some time, it drops -- not like the flick of a switch, but gradually and with some effort to allow the process of dropping it to continue. Things are cool, calm but not like on retreat. The mind is very quiet. I can let it think about stuff easily enough, but I don't have to, it's a choice, rather than like the continued maintenance of concentration in other states and stages. It's very peaceful, but after a while I begin to wonder if Im meditating at all.

I don't know if I could have got up and maintained that feeling. It felt like that on retreat, but then the feeling was very much stronger --so much so I am not 100% sure it's the same thing, though it seems likely as under retreat conditions all my experiences were more dramatic/deeper/"more" etc.

Vipassana

Once i'd had enough of this and figured i really outght to sleep I tried, but as often happens, the mind was now intent on meditation...

I made no effort whatsoever in the beginning to manipulate the process. In the past this has led to good things when the mind is in this state: The first thing that happened was a suffusion of body-fizz and a very focused, clear feeling in the mind - very shortly after, DN stuff -- though so tame compared to when I was really going through it on retreat and a few weeks back - hard to see all the stages, i never saw dissolution at all but I did see Fear, and then Reobservation --or at least extremely similar symptoms of those states (just less extreme). Then came low EQ, very recognisable - some greater time spent here before a switch into what I think is high EQ - where it all becomes very fine, very automatic, no efforty kind of stuff.

I didn't interfere. I tried to just allow the experience to "pull me in", to "sink" into the "???" and there was a bit of orangey/gold brightness and a feeling like if you held a champaign cork under the water in the bath and leg go --a rising up and a gentle 'pop' though not really a pop, more a 'emergence'. There was a big feeling of "something big approaching" and some fear of letting go with all of this.

No, i don't think this was stream entry. Though it does seem like progress. This happened once more from the start when i tried yet again to get to sleep after eating something to take my mind of it. This next time I tried to manipulate the experience at the end (i couldnt seem to help doing this) and didn't experience the climax but apart from that it was pretty much the same.

So, either this is ALL EQ and the DN stuff is less because it's just the same experiences but under different conditions. OR, it's A&P -> EQ but i've traversed the DN so many times now that it's not such a big deal. I can live with either explanation!

Does that sound about right?

I just repeated this to the third stage. Didn't quite make it into 4th (or at least not as cleanly as yesterday, some bodily fizz still there that I couldn't drop, mind not as cool and calm) -- moved onto sweeping from there.

Not much to report from the vipassana side. Much fizz, some small amount of disorientating sensations, played "chase the head tension" a bit then the bell went. There were a couple of instances where "somethings coming" was felt and the heartbeat sped up (or i think more accurately, became more pronounced) but they led to nothing very much.

I'm not sure if you're describing something PCE-like (i.e. a self-sustaining state) or something that is like the form of jhana I've been talking about (i.e. a state dependent on concentration) or something else. What you're describing sounds like it could be one of the first two, for sure (especially the lack of feeling that you're meditating, i.e. doing something).

When the fizz goes away, what happens to the sense of focus?

Can you get rid of the fizz by reflecting in this way when you're not meditating?

Whatever you're doing, I highly recommend doing it regularly. Especially if this is something you're reaching by concentration, you can develop this skill, and it can be very powerful.

If it's a self-sustaining thing in the direction of the PCE, or a jhana as I've talked about, one of the main points (as you've discovered by yourself) is to incline towards not generating the fizz / remember what it was like when you weren't generating it.

It's just kind of normal. Aware of everything, but not in any amazing kind of way. Having said that, see my comments in my report below...



Kind of. I tried it earlier and I can "dampen" the fizz i normally walk around in. I actively "contract" it, and the focus is kind of inward. When I release it, it stays where it is for quite some time. I don't feel super clear though. The fizz just goes.

Report
I had a hard time getting to first jhana (if that's what it is, until such time as I think otherwise or am corrected that seems a reasonable label) but once there I was quickly in 2nd, then after a while third where the focus is large on the edge of the body-fizz whilst being aware of the breath to a lesser degree. From here I think i made (have been making) a mistake. By "helping" to ditch the fizz it really does feel like im just coming out of jhana into perhaps access, or maybe just a nice calmish feeling generated by 10--15mns meditating. This doesn't feel like the first couple times it happened. On those occasions, it would have been quite reasonable to describe the focus as panoramic despite the urge to because of what that would signify. This was like i mentioned above, just kind of normal.

The difference? I think it's because the first couple times it went with no help. The very most i did was think about what it might be like to not have it and then left it at that. I will experiment some more with going back to this approach tomorrow.

Note to self: Don't forget you weren't going to get sidetracked by jhanic stuff till after stream entry!

Did my usual sweeping vipassana for the remainder of the sit and it was ho-hum.. nothing much to report. I am beset with nagging doubts as to where i might be, whether im doing it right and if i could be stuck here for years on days like this.



Well it would be foolish of me to ignore being able to get up to 3rd with little effort wouldn't it? No harm in developing this alongside as long as the emphasis remains on cracking equanimity!

Went through 1-3 fairly smoothly, though a bit confused as to where 1 ended and 3 began - did not try to do anything after getting into 3 other than to think briefly about the fizz dropping away. It died down quickly all by itself and this time felt much more natural and had a greater sense of ease and effortlessness to it.

Felt quite calm and clear, but still not like the first couple of times this happened. Did not hang about pondering this today. There's work to be done!

Began scanning meticulously. Built up to the level where it's hard to know if scanning even makes a difference as the all over body awareness is pretty much self maintaining and very fine/detailed. Felt several "this is big" type moments where I allowed myself to sink into the "???". Each time it ended without event, but left me deeper in the state. I get a very telltale kriya when lying down that I always fail to mention in my reports - 2 actually. My right leg (but on occasion the left) gives a gentle sideways movement and at around the same period of time one of my index fingers lifts up a centimetre as if acknowledging something. Insignificant i'm sure, but for the sake of completeness...

No mental pictures or black outs, (these drop outs are another thing I never remember to note here but will do thoroughly next time it occurs) but plenty of "oh yeh, scanning! now, where was i?" type forgetful moments. Lots and lots of them today actually.

Not a huge deal to report but i feel like it was a great session for some reason today.

Scanning.. scanning... scanning....

Losing track of where Im at in the scanning, slipping into thoughts and occasionally feeling a surge in perception/quality of vibrations. Lost in the vibrations.

Lots of distractions going on today so did just anapana on the bed.

Hard to know the difference between levels of samadhi and the vipassana jhanas but the journey was pleasant. Took bloody ages to get any level of concentration but when I did, it really took off. The mind really likes to use the distraction of a thought to dive down deeper as noted somewhere above. I tried to get a good look at the start and finish of these thoughts but it was not easy. Something to work on!

Familiar band of tension across forehead was a dominating feature once a certain level was reached. Couldn't shift it.

Better.

Fun but ultimately unprofitable attempt to get into 5th jhana (mostly to verify im attaining 4th!). No luck.

Vibrations continue apace. Im torn here on what to do:

a) Scan my arse off repeatedly.
b) Just dwell in the full awareness of the state/stage and see what comes up.

If you have any thoughts on this, I'd love to hear them!

My two cents' worth: keep scanning sysytematically, precicely, diligently, ardently. etc., maintain equanimity to the sensations which arise, and reflect on the state/stage off the cushion when you write your report.

Thanks Tarver

This morning I am on day 2 of giving up caffeine - major headache before I begun.

Nothing much to report. Much drifting off..

Can you believe I completely forgot to mention to stay alert to any trace of the Three Characteristics? Silly me.

Apropos that headache: I have noticed a certain signature headache at major passages in my life that I have called the "Truth Headache." I don't think I have ever discussed it with anyone -- who would even know what I am talking about, except to say take a pain-killer? What you are describing sounds similar, very similar. Examine it. Notice the 3C's if you can find them. Same instructions as always...

What I have done about the drifting off business it to take a month to develop better concentration. I don't know what you should do, as you now have excellent momentum. Knocking off the caffeine is probably a good idea in the long term if your intuition tells you so. Kudos on that initiative!

Hard to know if it's just been a tough day or this was some kind of progress...

Decided to launch sweeping after getting into 3rd jhana as that's nice and fizzy to start with and would provide plenty of stuff to examine -- I'll have to try this a few more times but I thought it was pretty good.

Was skipping along in EQ for a while when I noticed i had an unusual amount of brightness behind my eyes -- seeds of suspicion were duly sown. Then I got a classic (for me) "wave" of jumbliness course down the length of my body -- oh no! Back in the A&P!

Disaster? No. It seems not.

The DN that followed was very mild. Don't get me wrong, it had it's moments, but really, it was a pussy cat compared to some weeks back where it was my baseline experience. There was no doubt as to where I was. The DN content followed a very predictable pattern, but it was almost nice in a "i like pain" kinda way..

The sensations felt like old friends. They held no fear for me, which sounds like a good candidate for why they were so mild! --The whole DN was done in about 20mins.

Into low EQ then high fizzy interesting EQ - at an hour and 20mins with a mental headache from caffeine withdrawal though, i had to call it a day.

My guess is I got this set back due to feeling so rough today. That does seem to tie in previous experience --not feeling okay physically/mentally to start with seems to be able to set me back to A&P (or previously, back to RO) only now the climb back up is a little less daunting.

for your sits i would go with scanning plus pour whatever extra attention and energy you have to spare doing as much "b)" as is relatively comfortable to do (max. attentiveness but not straining). in equanimity it should be possible to do both. a good way to do it is to scan like a "laid back scanner" who's always curious to notice everything else that's going on while scanning. i wouldn't recommend "scanning your arse off" but scanning casually while keeping your arse in the present as if there is hell fire everywhere else. i'd say "keep scanning unless in very even, high eq", but to be more precise, if you're in high eq with almost zero reactivity, turn the scanning into full body sweeping at varying speeds while noticing everything else in the panoramic field of attention, including the sense of will, intention, curiosity, relaxation, observation, expectation, space, etc., and with very easy gentle effort.

aside from the scanning-based sitting practice, at this point in your practice i think it would be very beneficial to also have some "chilling" time where you just keep an open awareness while doing simple things in daily life, or doing nothing mentally demanding; for instance, just try to stay as aware as possible while taking a walk, cleaning, waiting, or driving. best time to chill attentively is right after formal sitting--better to do this than to get up and immediately analyze your sit and figure out what to report on the forum. many good things can happen when you're not intending to practice but just sincerely appreciating how it's better to live attentive to the present, just resting alert with it and noticing for fun what it's like to be more aware. you probably have many daily life circumstances where you can easily do "b)", so when sitting it's good to make use of the scanning technique to keep exercising and deepening awareness of sensations of reactivity right where they're arising, making them break down into smaller and smaller bits.

i would try to raise the lower baseline of awareness, equanimity, and tranquility as much as possible: keep attention to present sensations going as constantly as possible in your daily life. coarse breath awareness works wonders if you can keep stretching its continuity. keep catching the mind's worst moments of inattention.

Thanks a lot for taking time to write this TJ. It's great to have some technique specific advice at this state!



Mostly I already do that, so it's great to know that's the way forward! (I don't seem to able to do anything else. Even when I really concentrate on body parts i'm still plenty aware of other stuff.



Understood. Makes me think my thought that I'm often in high EQ may not be as accurate as I might like. I remember being in a state that would have fit really well with your advice there, but it's not often achieved out of retreat. I'll follow your advice and see if that pushes it back up to that high level.



Got it. There are many parts of my day where this is possible, and in theory at least thats what I am doing but in practice my daily mindfulness has slipped somewhat recently! Casual attention to the breath is indeed good for this, I read a few discourses from Webu Sayadaw who was very influential to U Ba Khin - As you may know he didn't teach anything other than anapana but held that you should constantly be aware of the breath at the nostrils in every single activity of the day. It's not easy to do, but it is entirely possible.

When I sit quietly I get the vibrations/anicca feelings come up (in most every situation these days) - I presume tuning into that would be considered pretty much the same thing?

Thanks again TJ

I seem to be still in EQ of some kind after slipping/climbing again last night. No bright lights or energy surges but great present-moment awareness of the full body and some exploration of various large "feelings" that came and went.

Still feeling like crap though, so not expecting much in todays's sits.

Scanning.. scanning.. scanning...

Funny thing is, at one point this evening the awareness was really fading while scanning in low EQ, it only picked up again when I dropped scanning for 2mins to let the body just "be aware" - then i scanned again.

Nice "chill out" directly afterward with a mug of warm milk on the sofa. Felt my awareness was great, and felt myself start to "move' on a couple of occasions (mind moving up a gear perhaps).

This morning went pretty much as TJ outlined it should above. Right up into what I think is high EQ. Scanning was good though little thoughts do occasionally leave you with "now what was I doing again?" moments -- full body scans at varying speeds was quite something! -I don't think I'd be able to do that in other stages, but in EQ when i'm right up at my cutting edge it's a great exercise. Had a few longer periods of just full body awareness but mostly did scanning.

I still seem to get state movements when the mind is distracted. Moving from one body part to another seems to give it an opportunity just as well as being momentarily distracted by a thought.

At ome point, what I think was the highest point there was a good deal of orange light and a falling/sinking sensation.

Sat 2hrs in the afternoon then 1hr in the evening today. Cycling up from A&P - EQ

1st sit was easy, blipped over DN but got interrupted a couple of times so didn't get to use those 2hrs as well as I'd like to have. 2nd sit, barely made it into EQ - long, but very mild DN.

Seems I'm cycling through A&P-EQ throughout the day. Not sure if this is normal, but I think it is. The other night i was trying to fall asleep with a thudding heartbeat from Fear --not good. Need to figure out how to avoid that..

hi btg,

i think it's more helpful to forum readers when you describe the phenomena you experience rather than only their names (A&P, DN, EQ). those insight stages vary so much in their ways of manifesting, and experienced meditators are familiar with and cautious of the possibilities of misdiagnosis, so the names alone hardly say anything at all.

keep up the sits!

jill

Very good point. Consider it done! Thx

I grabbed an hour today and rose up through to what felt like 3rd jhana - focus on the very edges of the body-fizz-coolness sensations, pretty much effortless --didn't really notice the first two jhanas, but then i wasn't looking. Limited time today..

Good even body sensations at a very fast pace, though with some irritating sensations and a few painful "spots" of feeling coming up now and again. No sensations I associate with my previous experience of dukkha nanas. Several times during the breaks in scanning when i let my attention soak up the full body experience I felt the familiar rising/sinking-heigtening of awareness but apart from that it was uneventful.

Sat for an hour this morning.

No sense of state shifts in my anapana to speak of, but at some point i was clearly in some kind of jhanic state (3rd i think) but I didn't hang around. In fact, from this point on I'll not make much comment of this part of practice as it is less relevant than the vipassana.

I had an amazingly forgetful sit today. I would scan my head, face, back of head then whole head and then find I'd completely forgotten what I was doing or where I was in the process and start all over again. Apart from a couple of times I dont even recall being lost in content, just lost! (the 2 content bits were kind of funny though, a swirly "going round in circles" thing and then pushing something through a cheese grater --I think these relate to my addled mind ) These "lost in vibrations" moments seem to happen as I move from scanning to full awareness (of a body part, like the back or head etc) - and when I get to the full body awareness at the end of a sweep, I can literally get swept up/down by several large degrees of perception - my perceptual threshold seems sometimes to take a leap every time I let full body awareness pervade for a time. It's not unpleasant. A gentle rising/falling/sinking or flying /shifting experience and a new level of detail in the bazillions of tiny sensations all over the body.

Im tired again, which may account for the "dropouts".

One thing I forgot....

This started out in clear A&P like territory --lots of light, then a flash of brilliant white light and a pleasurable shudder through the whole body. Over the next 10mins or so though it was clear (at least in retrospect) that the experience had moved to something far more equanimous (even with the dropouts mentioned above) -- odd thing is that I did not perceive anything resembling DN like sensations at all. No itchy/painful sensations around the face, no stabbing pains in legs or any of the other things I ususally experience -- the experience I ended on certainly lines up with previous experience of EQ so I don't really doubt being there, but it was strange to just "blip over" the unpleasant sensations I would have expected after A&P.

Sat a little over an hour this evening.

I knew this would be something interesting from the start. The minute I lay down the feeling of anicca came rushing up. I couldn't concentrate one-pointedly for toffee but the moment I let the focus widen out as far as it wanted I was falling (a literal but gentle sensation) into what felt like a mix between vipassana and third jhana - not quite one or the other, but a good place to launch into sweeping the body..

A few dropouts as with early in the day to start with but then the predominant feature of the next hour was wave after wave after wave after wave of the falling/rising-perception-shifting state change thingymewotsit that seems to happen quite often in this stage. I noticed that they varied both in duration and depth of shift -- some short but big jumps in perception, some long but shallow and one particularly long one that really gave me a chance to try to see what it was and what it was made of. Buggered if I could work that out though. Certainly no body sensations were obviously involved.

The shift on that large one, and one or two smaller ones was interesting in that when I came out the other side (as usual there was the feeling of "something bigs going to happen" but it never does, like falling down a steep hill, only to have it gently level out at the end) there was LESS fizz/tingle/sensation -- less noise. What was left though was much clearer. Reminiscent of the clarity of the PCE like experience of a while back but that one left me with nothing to perceive, this one left me with less fizz, more accuracy.

This went on for ages. With only 2-3 irritating sensations of any note that quickly went their own way. The whole thing left me feeling content, peaceful, satisfied, at ease --all good stuff. Sat and chilled for 20mins or so with a hot drink. Beats the crap out of watching telly or pottering around on the laptop...

This morning was a washout due to an interruption. This evening looked pretty dull right up until the end...

I seemed to spend an awfully long time in what I label as Low EQ - courser bodily sensations more akin to the DN pin-prick feelings than anything else. A few irritating sensations and a bit of an unsettled mind - which is either a product, or a cause. It probably doesn't matter which.

The last 15mins or so took me into "waves" again though. See explanation above.

There was a big difference this time though: Every time I experienced a "wave" I got some visual effect as well. Not the brilliant bright white flashes of the A&P but kind of like nebulae, though not as detailed as those pics.. As these waves continued a few of them got more detailed but they were a far cry from the descriptions of formations i've read in MCTB.

Still, now they have motion and visuals so Im beginning to think they may well be as yet immature formations. What do you think?

The waves with visuals sound like what I was experiencing prior to SE. I think it is High Equanimity-type stuff. I would recommend continuing to pay as much attention as possible in the effortless manner that is required to make progress in High Equanimity. Perhaps as the waves are undulating in their sleepily relaxing way, curiously and gently investigate who or what is experiencing these waves.

Also I found this article from alohadharma on equanimity to be a good read. Didn't help me get SE as I only read it afterwards, but helped lead me into a really nice review cycle.

Hi Beoman, thanks for your reply..



Im never really sure how I should do this kind of thing. I can mentally ask the question "who is it experiencing this stuff?" Or do you mean try to work out where it is experienced (like a physical location)?

Will read that article this morning before I sit. Many thanks!

Either could work, but an important distinction must be made. This is an important one to figure out anyway - the difference between what I will call actually seeing and creating mental/conceptual constructs that point at seeing but aren't. For the sake of brevity I will refer to the former as seeing and the latter as 'seeing' (note the single quotes). Think of 'seeing' as a mockery of seeing (so you are quoting it to indicate it isn't the real thing).

If you form the thought along with an intention in your mind: "who is it experiencing this stuff?", that act itself isn't seeing, but 'seeing'. So if you keep asking that question without doing anything else, you are just distracting yourself from your meditation[1]. Likewise with 'trying to work it out'. If you're creating mental effort/tension (e.g. tension in forehead) by doing it, it is not the right direction. But, if the asking (or the intent to try to see) results in the mind settling down, calming down, achieving tranquility, and then a curious investigation arises, vitalizing delight/appreciation (even at gross forms of suffering), with a gentleness that leads to insights coming on-their-own, unforced, as-if-from-nowhere... that might be pointing in the right direction.

(Edited for correctness): An analogy might help: it's part of the difference between re-observation and low equanimity; it's what allows you to realize that 'you' are making the situation worse by reacting violently to suffering, and what allows 'you' to stop reacting, thus leading to Equanimity where you can observe them, instead. More 'seeing' will lead back to dark night; more seeing will lead to High Equanimity and stream entry.

Synonyms for seeing might be: attentiveness, sensuousness, right mindfulness, right effort. Synonyms for 'seeing' might be: wrong effort, spinning in thought.

---

Keeping that in mind, to address your question specifically: include in your investigation (in the seeing, not 'seeing', way) looking for a sense of presence, or a sense of being there, or a sense of - as you said - physical location in the world (perhaps behind your eyes), a sense where things are emanating 'from'. Are those waves emanating from that spot? Is the seeing of the waves emanating from that spot? Are 'you' at that spot? Are 'you' elsewhere from that spot? Asking the question and then letting the mind settle into seeing will probably work. Or just having the intention, and letting the mind settle into seeing.

Keep doing that till it becomes automatic (till you no longer have to re-ask the question - it is just what is happening. You can remember (be mindful) of your intent without having to revitalize it with a fabricated thought). You want to go for longer+longer gaps where you aren't fabricating any effort or renewing your effort with fabrications, but the seeing is just happening on its own. If you get what I mean with the gaps, try also to discern exactly what happens at the edges (going from seeing to 'thinking about seeing', and settling down from 'thinking about seeing' into seeing).



[1] Or it could be used as a mantra which can be an aid to concentration, but that's something else, I think.

That's an amazing amount of really great information Beoman, thanks a lot! That makes things quite a bit clearer.

I'll have to read it again and reply in the morning, it's getting late here in UK.

A couple of notes on today though:

Morning was much the same as last night. I hadn't had your reply then. There was one intense wave with a really strong white "supenova" type effect that went on for ages - I felt sure this was it.. (it wasn't). Some tension across the forehead which is not new, but now you mention it, it reminds me to report it.

This evening after reading your reply I tried to just ride on the waves - I dropped scanning completely and this worked for a long time. Interestingly, I made a point of not asking myself mental questions but just set out with the intention of really investigating the source of everything that came my way. As a (possible) result my forehead tension got really quite extreme - a bit rough for high EQ really!

I eventually dropped back into low EQ (courser sensations, irritating sensations, restlessness etc) and didn't quite make the full hour which is a very rare thing these days. I've never had this happen before. I guess the lesson is "dont stop scanning" as per Jill's advice above. At it's height, it was everything as intense as this morning and last night but with the added discomfort of the forehead tension. I can't quite understand how that's come about, as I made a point of trying to only see, rather than "see".

I'll review your reply again in the morning and see if I can't work it out a bit better and give a good response after my morning sit. Thaks so much for taking time to post that, it's fantastically helpful at this stage and much appreciated.

You are welcome =).



Ah, the forehead tension... I have had a particularly bad case of it in the past. I would recommend prioritizing whatever practice causes it to diminish vs. whatever practice causes it to increase. Investigating the source of things in a particular way leads to forehead tension.. and although progress can be made that way (as I have), I think it's far healthier and perhaps more effective long-term to make progress while also learning how not to cause the forehead tension. I think the trick is that the forehead tension itself is 'seeing' (or a result of it) - effort that is too tense and constricted - but seeing can happen in the mean-time... so it kind of works, but better to have none of it at all (only seeing).

I'm not sure what caused it, but something to consider: perhaps all the energy you normally put into scanning the body had nowhere to go, so it all over-focused on a small collection of points that seemed the most attractive to look at, turning into forehead tension. In any case, you really do want to pay attention in a panoramic way. 'Seeing' is narrow, focused, constricting... it's like taking what you want to see and trying to hold it there so you can look at it, but that distorts what it is you're actually looking at (and causes tension).


Note that I haven't practiced the Goenka method so Jill's advice is probably better with regard to that specific practice. I would try perhaps doing the same method you have been, but keep an eye out for the 'seeing' vs. seeing distinction, and do the things that lead to seeing and not the ones that lead to 'seeing'... I think Jill's advice here is pointing to the same thing, particularly the parts I bolded:



As for the "as if there is hell fire everywhere else" part, that is a good idea to have in mind, though it's tough to get the right balance between it and ease of effort. You might like this article on the Buddhist notions of samvega and pasada. After you read it, consider: seeing is what causes samvega to turn into pasada and eventually results in enlightenment.

Asking the question, any question in fact - in fact.. any intentional thinking seems to trigger tension. Would forming the intention to investigate "who is experiencing this stuff?" before the sit then just leaving all that alone during the sit be in line with what you're saying?

If I understand correctly you're saying "go ahead and ask the question", but then let the mind figure it out on it's own. Is that right?

Are there any other subtle ways of tuning the mind to these questions without agitating it? It seems the mind is in a very fine balance in EQ and does not take much to cause this tension arise. Feels a bit like a gyroscope which spins perfectly until you blow gently on it. It wavers off course slightly and starts spinning at a slight angle that gets worse and worse until you're dumped back into low EQ / DN stuff...

I can certainly relate to this! In the past I've had much success working through difficult stages with anapana --by resting the attention on the 'spot' but not being absorbed by it and just letting the processes happen. I've not really tried this with EQ but it may well be worth a shot.

Here's a question though: Is seeing completely unconscious (effortless, undirected, automatic)?

I tend to overdo it on effort, so EQ could be the hardest thing yet if it means learning to really ease off on the effort but when I'm right up there in high EQ that seems like a natural thing to do so maybe not..

I have generally found Jills advice re "keep scanning" extremely helpful. I think i just need to work out how to scan with less intensity, less brute force..

[off to read those articles..]

Thanks!

That's a good insight - intent of this kind is suffering. Is there an intent that isn't suffering? (Why did tension not arise before the intentional thinking? (or: What caused it to arise?) What caused the tension to cease after the intentional thinking occurred?)


That strategy could work. You basically have to figure out how to investigate (which includes remembering what it is you are investigating) without using intentional thinking during the investigation.


I think so. Seeing is what happens when nothing is preventing it from happening.



That's what equanimity is about, basically - figuring out that very fine balance. Watch very very closely and gently and effortlessly to see what causes that gyroscope to sway slightly. This is tricky cause the intention to observe that can itself cause the gyroscope to sway, and, if left unchecked, get it all the way back down to DN stuff. A hint might be: sensations cannot sense other sensations. Thoughts aren't the things observing, intentions aren't the things observing... are you the thing observing? Is there a 'thing' observing?

Is the answer in the technique? Scanning in my case focuses on noticing impermanence automatically, and I believe the idea is that you reach a tipping point where you also see suffering, and if you have those 2 characteristics, eventually you should see all three by focusing on that first one..



Intellectually that makes perfect sense. I get that there is no-self. Now I just have to get it deep down!

I read your post today about tranquility/insight/passion/ignorance. I'll have to test it, but I have a feeling i've had less tension when I've taken time to really develop my samadhi before going into sweeping. One issue I've not talked about though is that for the past few sits I appear to have lost the ease I had a while back with the jhana's in favour of rising up into EQesque territory --Im pretty sure I'm telling the difference correctly. In the A&P I would just do anapana for 3-5mins and be right on the roller caster! This seems very similar. --but either way, some greater time developing tranquility may pay dividends.

Today was a bit of a wash out. Im more tired than usual. My physical/mental condition seems to really affect my meditation. Im prioritising sleep over meditation tonight and reading some of the middle length discourses --fab book!

No, this particular thing isn't technique specific. Without understanding this, no technique will work. With understanding this, you don't need any particular technique. Learning a particular technique is probably one of the better ways to get to the point where you can understand it, though.

Not to say it's a binary thing... you get it to some degree, otherwise you wouldn't have made any progress. You just have to refine it further - figure out what, exactly, seeing clearly is. My current take is that it is something that is constantly refined until you are done with the entire path (until no more suffering)... you just need to figure it out enough and do it enough to get stream entry (as that is what you are currently aiming for).

hi BTG,

to shake up the sense of self there is no need to work at such a conceptual level as to make an exercise out of asking "who is experiencing this stuff" or "who am I" or "what is doing the observing", especially when you already have a kind of practice that breaks down awareness of sensations into such fine bits. if i'm not mistaken i think beoman is pointing to keeping an investigative and inquisitive outlook, not any sort of verbalization or thinking exercise.

you can get at this "how to investigate" simply by approaching practice with a purely non-assuming attitude and genuine curiosity. this means you assume that you know NOTHING whatsoever about the self and workings of the mind except that meditation means developing awareness and equanimity towards sensations. this might require (or lead to) some "unknowifying" of things you've always assumed to be true but are only illusions or beliefs, such as "this is me thinking this thought about x because of y and because of that I feel z" or "i'm such an xxx person and i need to be more this and that." with a pure not-knowing attitude, you assume that you don't know what anything that arises in your mind or body sensations is, you don't know why it arises, and don't know if it is good or bad, should or shouldn't be there. whether it's a body sensation, sight, sound, thought, feeling, intention, decision, memory, etc., just notice it arise and pass; it's just sensed exactly as it is sensed, and the task is to be objectively aware and accepting of it.

the problem with a solidified illusion of self (whether subtle or gross, pre or post path is) is that there are assumptions, beliefs or interpretations of sensations that hold the self in place. such assumptions, beliefs, and interpretations (or new ones formed after new shifts) also cause dissociation from problems of self, leaving them comfortably unresolved. so interpretations of phenomena which lead to the conclusion that there is no self anywhere could also be a hindrance.

sensations that feel like a part of "you" and sensations that are not "you" should be noticed in the same way--as arising and passing phenomena, with objectivity, equanimity/acceptance and curiosity, no assumptions, no evaluations, no beliefs, no imposing knowlege. what you manage to infer about what's probably self or not self is not important. if the sense of self is still not dismantled enough, it probably still hasn't been completely treated with the same pure unknowing, unassuming investigation.

one thing that's good to keep in mind is that the body, mind, self, and perception are all part of the natural causes and effects of the universe, part of the natural processes that go on everywhere, processes which continue with or without you, with or without your understanding or feeling of control of anything. your body, your brain impulses, sensations, will, decision making, intentions, attention, actions and meditation activities, even if you feel like taking credit for them from time to time, self or not-self, are all part of the causes and conditions, flux and flow of the universe. "let the nature do its thing; your job is just to observe. just observe."--see if you can run this quote from goenka (best as non-verbal perspective) through all of experience.

keep it simple!

p.s. the attitude of "not knowing" or "unknowifying" everything was probably the most valuable practice guide that the pce memory showed me--once i got to take a goenka course, practicing with that mindset helped me get stream entry. "not knowing" keeps the practice of sensation awareness at maximum efficiency as the mind stays pure and simple, free from any possible wrong view or proliferation of tensions, interpretations, assumptions, unnecessary analysis, evaluation, labeling, meanings, opinions, all that personal mental junk that seeps into even the most sincere thoughts about practice. you can't know anything wrongly if you can see how you don't really know anything (except what's being sensed from moment to moment).

Thanks Jill, that's very clear! I like simple very much.

I sat for just over an hour this afternoon: Took time to build samadhi to something resembling 3rd jhana then began sweeping. Nothing new to report other than the forehead tension came and went from time to time and I'm beginning to see a pattern -something todo with intention/effort much as you and beoman have talked about. Some waves at the high point of the hour but nothing out of the (now) ordinary.

I slept better yesterday so my meditation today has improved...

Got to an exceedingly good level of samadhi and had a great sit this evening. Forehead tension came and went, but Im getting better at not developing it at all --though I'd be hard pushed to tell you exactly how I'm dong it. Kind of a mix between softening the eyes/relaxing the forehead and gently willing the mind to calm. Only a few waves, not a patch on the high of a day or two ago but a very consistent stream of energy all throughout the body --extremely fine. Due to the great concentration today it wasn't until i guess the last 1/4hr that the mind wandered a bit. Mostly it was just total calm clarity, really cool stuff.

I must really resolve to prioritize sleep. I have 2 small kids on xmas holidays now and Im not exactly a natural parent! Gotta balance my "morality trip" and concentration with my insight meditation --MCTB 101 but easily forgotten (at least by me!)

Sat for an hour this morning, and an hour this evening..

Both sits I worked up a high level of samadhi before starting my vipassana. (4th jhana, or something doing a remarkably good impression of it..) and this is really, really helping. The clarity and precision and the clear mind lasts for a long time. I had a few good waves on both sits but I am either past that phase or not quite reaching it each time I sit the last few days as they are no longer so numerous and dominating. I suspect Im not quite reaching it as even at it's peak my meditation feels like nothing very special right now and before those waves were really quite something! --more work to do, but no worries.

Im really hoping I can get SE at home. It would be good to book my next retreat to work more on the jhanas. See upcoming post about failed attempts to get into 5th

No forehead tension at all. A little tightness at the temples. Will keep an eye on that.

One interesting thing is that I sit for a set hour (never under, but sometimes over) and I've noticed that in the last 10mins or so I seem to drop down into low EQ territory and the mind wanders off frequently -- bit like being on retreat, the high point is the 3rd quarter. Not sure why I've never noticed this before as I imagine it's been happening for months and months --maybe it's just easier to see in this stage.

Hit a bit of a highpoint today (at least in terms of the last 4 days or so)..

My morning sit went very well today. A few waves but then right at the high point when the sensations were very fast flowing, clear and tension free there was an odd visual of something resembling a cats eye (just the slit pupil) and something resembling a "gentle wave" as described earlier but much more shifting --for once the bell went and I was deep in it, rather than automatically on my way out of it --kept going for 10mins or so but it had settled back down to the extremely fine energy flow / fizz / clear flow of sensations that seem like they'll never end.

So I got up and did some stuff before the kids got back from their trip to the park with Mrs Bagpuss.

I fought to maintain my hard earned samadhi as I switched to sweeping this evening. The neighbours were saying goodbye to guests outside my window with kids noisy enough to rival my own, almost... (for about 10mins!)

I spent much of my sit in "high EQ" - fine streaming vibrationary sensations, effortless maintenance etc. but near the end I got some really outstanding DN sensations which can sometimes happen in "low EQ" --However.. I felt very, very much like I was in a much greater state of awareness, a higher level, deeper meditation etc --NOT dropped down a peg at all.

Every time the sensation would come up my attention would momentarily zoom in on it then bounce back out to whole body but with great increase in clarity --although the sensations were pretty extreme in their tiny pinprick irritation kinda way they didn't really throw me off course though, almost the opposite.

Very confusing.

Sounds like the right idea... keep at it!

Confusing to whom?

I suspect from the way you are writing your reports that you are very keen (disclosure: as am I!) to filter and classify your experience to correspond to one or another of the stages of the progress of insight, in such a way as to conform to a narrative about working up through the stages into stream entry. See the problem? Within the narrativizing perspective lurks a sense of self. You aren't likely to wish it away, but perhaps you could fold it into your investigation?

Good luck, and keep up that all-important momentum!

Me.

>>filter

No. I am of course following the maps though, hence the confusion.

Both my sits today have been very similar, but this evenings was "more"

Very good samadhi to start with then quickly into ultra-fine vibrationary sensations flowing through the body. Each time I get to the stage between body scans where I let the attention focus on the whole of the body there is an intensifying of the experience --what I think the "waves" of a week or so back have now become --same thing basically, but longer, more subtle.

Tantalising semi-glimpses of visual phenomena --always fascinating for me as Im a highly un-visual person. Half seen shapes, faces etc --visual "chatter" or something more? Hard to tell. They don't seem very significant.

2 or 3 moments where the "wave" went for so long and so deep that I thought something good would happen but as before it just kind of becomes the new baseline (in that sit) and off we go again scanning through the body...

Fair bit of forehead tension in both sits today.

I just crawled back up through the Dark Night...

Not sure why or how this happened. I just went through most of the classic (for me) symptoms of the dark night - see early posts in this thread for full descriptions but the short version is: multiple nasty sensations around nose/mouth - clusters of them as it got to its worse, tension headaches, course prickly sensations as I scan the body rather than "fine-fizzy".

Every time I think I've got the DN licked, it comes back to give me a slap.

And though i was in EQ for maybe 20-25mins, I'd no energy left. Gotta get to bed..

Added: Wondering if dropping to 1hr a day may actually work better than doing 2 as I have such a hectic household with kids at home etc these days. I used to do only 1hr.. The danger is having to climb the DN on a more regular basis (or worse, get stuck in it for a while)

Now, I am only just getting acquainted with all of these states and stages myself, and I have read about the skillful application of relaxing into the fullness of it all and coasting over the finish line, but isn't Equanimity also notorious for tricking people into slacking off the effort about five minutes before the miracle would have happened? Just a thought.

Updates

My sits are (apart from yesterday!) mostly on an even keel at the moment. There seems little point posting the same thing every day so Im going to start updating only at points of interest and when I'd appreciate some help from more enlightened beings.

--today I am back on that even keel. Good samadhi, ultra-fine body sensations / energy flow and looooooong gentle rise/fall sensations that feel like the perception level is dramatically increasing - some half seen images, and a feeling not unlike just before a jhanic state is reached (almost there, carefully does it.... kinda thing) that just level out in the end.

It seems momentum is important in getting to SE... so I would try to maintain that momentum. Keep doing whatever is working. Cutting sitting time in half sounds like a big change. Just a suggestion... your schedule might make that difficult.

Don't worry. You're both right of course. I'd already put such foolish nonsense to one side

God knows how I'll manage it over xmas though..

And as it happens, this evening was kind of interesting...

I decided to focus on anapana with a view to insight for the entire sit as I was having some "pulse" headache pains in the forehead and didn't think scanning was right for this tonight. It took a while (but no longer than anapana then scanning I think) but eventually my sense of anicca was on autopilot and I was in fine-fizz territory. Same as getting there through scanning but at least in the beginning it's a finer, more subtle awareness -- a more delicate tool perhaps.

I got many waves - gentle rising/falling sensation with increased awareness/perception. I tried to include as much as I possibly could of not only the body but sounds from the street, the gross physical sensations of lying on my bed etc. About 3/4 of the way through the hour there was a brilliant white perfect square of light that rushed toward me (or me to it) as my perception took a leap rather than the normal gentle glide and for a moment I thought I was headed for the biggy! I was just left with a thudding heartbeat though

Im not sure if anapana would work like this for me if I had not done months of scanning, but it may prove a good practice for evenings like this where I've really had enough of the day and scanning seems very unappealing.

Include not only bodily sensations like these but also mental ones: the mental recognition of the body sensations, intention, perception of intention, perception of space, perception of effort, etc...

I'm getting a little better at this. It's a subtle thing, and I'm a sledgehammer kind of cat, but I'm getting there...

Here's a few things I've noticed over the last week:

• I seem to be cycling a bit during the day. It doesn't seem to affect my moods much, and I can't tell you much about where Im cycling except that I often feel the "thudding heartbeat" which in a sit usually means Fear, Reobservation or Low Equanimity --Of late I think it's mostly low EQ as for the most part I'm on a very even keel in my day to day life and in RO I would have a crushing headache aswell, and Fear would often be accompanied by prickly sensations.
• My skill with jhanic states is improving a little but it still ranges from weak to moderate most of the time. And I can't do any kind of jhana if I begin my sit in a low ebb in my daily cycle (ie DN rather than low EQ). The best I can get in the DN is a usually short passage into low EQ by doing anapana coupled with wide full body awareness. (this is how I made progress from 1-4 when the A&P was my cutting edge, it works well.)
• I don't hit what I really consider high EQ that often. Perhaps once every 2-3 days. During those times though Im still trying to be as gently inclusive as possible.

Im not sure if I'll break it doing 2hrs a day. Problem is I don't have any more time, and wont get to do another 10day course till probably April. I could do 1 6-7hr stint a weak at my mums house while shes at work and my kids are at school. I imagine that might help. What do you think?

Keep doing what you're doing. Bring it into daily life as much as possible. You're clearly doing it to some degree, as you notice all those things during the day, so keep that up! The 6-7 hours once/week sounds like a potentially good idea, though don't be frustrated if it seems like you didn't 'make progress' during a 6-7 hour stint (e.g. if it was all DN stuff).

After your sits, and especially after a 6-7 hour stint, keep a light awareness on what is going on for the next hour or so while you go about daily business. Maybe right after you open your eyes, as you start to do your next activity, pay attention to how the concentrated state deteriorates (if you know what I mean).

Do you mean like as the vibrations subside? That I can do, though until today i'd never paid it much attention.

I did 4.5hrs with 20min breaks for something to eat and drink x2 today. As luck would have it, I got an early chance to try out this mini-retreat idea a bit earlier than expected.

It worked out okay. I sat for 2hrs straight to start with doing just anapana according to the U Ba Khin / Ledi Sayadaw one-pointed method (ad I've been reading Ledi's manual of mindfulness of breathing recently..) and that produced some nice non-absorbed samadhi complete with beautiful midnight blue backgrounds and the occasional fleeting nimita --I can really understand the facination with these things, as they are indescribably beautiful --even though I'd be hard pushed to even begin describing it. "Bright white star" just doesn't do it justice

The side effect of this method was a superb forehead tension though. Not for the first time using this one-pointed technique!

I spent most of the second hour in mid-high EQ with fast flowing fine vibrations and the occasional wink of light and rush of perception shift.

I sat a further hour 25mins later, (in my lunch break i tried to maintain awareness of the breath the whole time) and was pretty much straight into mid-high EQ territory again. One thing that I realised during this hour was that the "waves" of a couple of weeks back that kind of disappeared have not really disappeared at all. I just don't experience them quite the same way. The reason I could never say if it was a rising or falling sensation is of course because it's neither. It's simply a rapid (though usually gentle) shift in the level of perception --you know when the millennium falcon goes into hyperspace and all the stars stream toward the screen? It's like that.

After another small break i sat for only 30mins. This time I sat rather and laid down.

I was getting a really nasty headache and I thought at the time it was just too much meditation without enough of a break (perhaps fodder for another post but I strongly suspect getting the balance right is more important than how many hours I do..) and I stopped to give myself a further break.

When I went back to it, I laid down and got the same thing. Crushing headache, and much dullness --oh no! Reobservation!

I broke though it in maybe 5-10mins but it still surprised me that with all the momentum I thought (hoped) I had built up earlier, I still slid back a little in break time. I spent the rest of the hour in low eq. Nothing to write home about.

Including that, but not limited to that. You don't need vibrations to be concentrated, so just notice whatever qualities change as the mind stops concentrating (which happens naturally as you get up and do other things), not only what decreases/diminishes but also the things that arise to take its place.

hi BTG

a few things that may be of help.

firstly, TJ's last post contains a whole bunch of gentle but profound advice for nipping unhelpful thinking and conceptualising in the bud. enthusiastic analysis of where you are can create subtle layers of tension that can prevent letting go of the conditioned enough for SE to occur. it might be handy to entertain the perspective that "you" don't attain to stream entry, stream entry "happens" when "you" have relaxed your grip on phenomena enough for it to "happen".

those phenomena necessarily include ideas, hopes and expectations about "where you are".

for me, for it to happen, i had to absolutely not give two hoots about "where i was" any more. i knew i was close, i knew i had some kind of momentum behind me, and i knew that it was possible. i was allowing myself enough analysis to know that in my sits i had started cycling to equanimity territory within about 30 mins. armed with this knowledge, i had started sitting casually, about 2 x 40 mins per day, just for the sake of sitting and allowing the process to happen. then, when i had stopped trying completely, it did.

have you spent any time really reflecting on TJ's advice?

just so you know, i was also using goenka technique, but modified to suit me a little. at the point of SE i wasn't scanning so much any more, just sitting with whole body awareness, as tends to be more natural as equanimity matures.

remember, the idea that there are some patterns of phenomena (impressions then conceptualised as states and stages) that are worth "writing home about" and some that are not, is rather heading away from what equanimity implies, and more importantly, feels like.

just my tuppence worth ;)

all the best

thom

p.s. i would question any fascination, or even gentle interest, in jhana attainment at this point. if they arise while sitting, and it sounds like they could be, just continue to investigate the sensations, avoiding excitement and analysis. this is akin to making even the sensory playing field of practice, to more accurately perceive the 3Cs in what is arising in this moment. letting go of the excitement can help in moving towards the best possible chance to reach a point of "uninvested" all-encompassing field-wide acceptance that SE requires.

it may be comforting to know that post-path jhana can really open up into stuff that blows away pre-path explorations. for me, soon after hitting 2nd, the formless realms started opening up organically and effortlessly, much to my amazement. i didn't have any stable jhana attainments prior to 2nd path, believe it or not. mainly because i resolved not to get sidetracked, and it really worked. if you intuitively feel that concentrating on insight will be the faster route to your goal, trust this intuition and consider making a formal resolution in that regard.

<edited for grammar, accuracy, clarity>

Hi BtG, to emphasize these two points:

Thom
TJ

Yes. And I've just re-read it! I seem to get a little distracted from the goal from time to time, so thanks for posting this Thom. I really appreciate it.

The bolded bit, as pointed out also by Katy really hits home. I just managed 40mins before interruption and tried to really not do anything other than pay close attention to sensations happening right now --no meanings, no "steps or stages" and it works well. I had to tell one of the dogs to go lie down at one point and felt the sensations slip down to a prickly DNish type thing but just kept gently trying to really perceive those sensations just as they were. They changed almost immediately to finer vibrations.



Yes. And I re-read a load of her advice to others I had bookmarked and some posted in the comments by Nikolai here.

Consider me back on track!



I find that intuitively right also. As per Jills advice though I've been also full body scanning during these periods which seems to be a productive compromise between what feels right and the advice to keep scanning.



Yes. Earlier on I had stated an intention not to get sidetracked with jhana, but again I am sometimes easily distracted (oh look! Something shiny...)



The problem with jhana is that it's very alluring. I'll certainly make a formal declaration to not pursue them until i reach SE right here and now.

Thanks again Thom.

you're very welcome. great you've found it useful.

BTW, you were well on track before, this is just a honing of it...and taking a bird's eye view for a moment, is really the key to the whole endeavour - the limitless capacity for reflective self-adjustment that keeps us chipping away at the habitual crap that encrusts our capacity for joyful awesomeness. this self-adjusting is crucial - keep honing, keep honing, keep honing. be absolutely ruthless in your self honesty regarding your leanings and tendencies in practice and make sure they align with what you intuitively feel serves your progress, whatever criteria you use for this. you are your own best teacher, but only if you appraise well and take your own advice ;)

one last thing - take your time with formal resolutions. they're not something to be run off with little preparation. the more intention you invest in them, the more power they have. if, as above, it is a resolution that involves even partially mitigating an ingrained habit or tendency that you feel does not serve you, i would suggest really taking your time with it. give yourself ample time and space and be *very* clear with yourself about why you are resolving what you are resolving. i don't really feel qualified to be particularly detailed with formal resolution particulars, i only know what seemed to work for me, but the more "ceremonial" weight you add to it the better, knowing that the "outer" ceremony is only in support of the "inner" ceremony, although of course this distinction is arbitrary and only helpful to a point. words alone don't cut the mustard - they need to be invested with strong intent and clarity as to why you're making the resolution.

cheers

thom

<edited for verbiage>

This morning I had a LOT of forehead tension

This seems to be a bit of a recurring theme, as discussed with Claudiu above. I have only managed 1hr of sitting for the last 2 days as we've had guests and that, combined with the whole xmas thing has left me with a bit of an agitated mind. With that in mind I did an hour of anapana today to try to really cultivate some calm.

The forehead tension feels like all the skin is being drawn taught, and is quite intense. Even while I feel relaxed, the body is relaxed and it all feels okay, that tension is just "there"! I worked on relaxing the eyes, relaxing the forehead, not concentrating too hard and including the whole body as well as the anapana spot, but the tension was just there, occasionally intensifying all the time.

The only time it died down a bit was after a long time (guessing 30-40mins) I finally felt the familiar buzz/fizz in the body meaning I was doing insight practice (or just jhana factors, but i think the latter). This was an extraordinarily long time to start getting some results, generally when I do anapana I can feel the vibrations *before* I even start, or at least within 5mins.

I don't know what to conclude from this, other than to carry on as normal and see how it works out.

Have you tried sitting with an "agitated mind" and watching precisely what is arising in body and mind, not trying to "do anything" with it?



What is your reasoning behind associating this buzz/fizz with insight practice? Do you consider noticing other types of phenomena (or lack of them) not insight practice? If so, why?



Would reaching a "conclusion" here help your practice? What sort of conclusion would you like to reach? Why?

I hope you don't mind a whole set of questions here, I ask only because this sort of questioning has helped me a lot.

Thom

Only by accident I guess. By agitated I mean easily distracted, hard to get even access concentration.



I think what I mean is best described thus: When I do insight practice, on purpose or not, I get the buzz/fizz feeling of anicca in the body. I get this all day as well, but it's not as strong as it was when I was in the A&P. I've always associated the fizz with "ah, now we're getting somewhere.." - late at night it will arise strongly if Im listening to classical music sometimes, I can feel it faintly as I type this post.

No I don't consider noticing other types of phenomena not insight practice, but I do the Goenka technique fairly strictly, so I don't have much experience with noticing other types of phenomena purposely.



No, probably not. Im just a bit of a Dhamma geek, and have a vested interest in my own progress, or lack thereof. It's hard not to have. I guess one conclusion I'd like to reach is "oh, so that's why! Well I'll change that then.." but I did plenty of tuning during my sit, to no avail. My next post may shed some light on it.



Not in the slightest. Quite the contrary! Im grateful for any help I can get from folks who've got a better knowledge of the territory than me. Whenever you have something to say, I'm all ears!

Thanks Thom.

Since my last report I've sat 1.5hr at home, and then 4hrs today at my mums.

DNish
The forehead tension may be explained somewhat by the fact that the next sit I spent well over an hour going through some very familiar DN sensations - crushing temple headache, intense itching sensations in the face, burning sensations in the thighs, mind thrashing about like a caged animal etc. It was all fairly mild really, as with the last time I did this. I guess I got a little set-back due to all the xmas stuff going on and a fall in practice for a couple days. No biggie. It eventually panned out into low EQ type stuff (much of the same, but reduced significantly, and more easily observed).

4 Hours
Today I did 2 x 2hr sits at my mums house. It took no time at all to be in what was clearly not the DN stuff of yesterday, but was hard to say if it was A&P or EQ - I got a few "pleasant shudders" I generally associate with the A&P but then without even a "see ya, wouldn't wanna be ya!" to the DN I was experiencing stuff I would usually call EQ - fine streaming fizz, day dreaming on occasion, every so often a movement in the level of perception etc.

Apart from the "no DN" thing, both sits were unremarkable except for the fact that they were unusually unremarkable! In the second sit, after 30mins for some tea and lunch I really thought I'd somehow just lost the thread, and really wasn't meditating any more. Even the bodily fizz had died right down and it had a feel of "going through the motions" --perhaps I was, or perhaps this is more in line with what Thom said about "nothing to write home about" a couple of days ago above.

I don't know. It was nice to be back in more pleasant territory though

As the whim takes me I occasionally just do anapana sessions for various reasons. Today has proved to be most interesting in this regard...

I sat 3x1hr sessions today. Here's how they went:

Morning
Decided to do anapana as that's what "felt right". Breathing and full body awareness combined. Something I found very useful when going through the A&P and parts of the DN a while back. After some considerable time (guess 30-40mins) the mind seemed to reach out and grab a pleasurable state. It was unambiguous. The state was very pleasant, and although I would still maintain that a few weeks back when I was experiencing jhanic states that they were indeed jhanas, compared to this they were very, very watered down. This was very clean, and deeper than before. It lasted most of my sit.

I hadn't intended to hit jhana, but once in it, I figured I'd stay with it.

Afternoon
The afternoon was much of the same, though the transition was less clear. Whereas earlier it was like a switch being thrown, this was like more a change in gear. After a while I started scanning and that was pretty good, with highs in Mid EQ kind of range. Pretty steady stream of sensations, but still some good reactivity to sharp sensations / noises etc.

Evening
This evening was quite exceptional.

Again the transition was different. This was like a build up of pleasure all through the body but mainly from the naval upward and it got more and more and more intense with every breath. So much so that it was a bit scary, and I thought it would be more than I could bear in pure pleasure (and now I think i really know what is meant by pleasure in the body! Unworldly indeed!) but at it's peak I just kinda got used to it and it was okay. Clean, silent, deeply pleasurable and not of this world. This build up happend once more about 10mins later and I figured it must be a shift upward but it was a bit vague and I can't be sure (and it doesn't matter so much).

When I started to break it down with scanning it took a few passes but eventually the silence of the mind and the pleasure really allowed me to scan with clear enthusiasm. Prescision, clarity, equanimity --really nice. It took quite a long time for the pleasure to completely go, but the stillness remained for almost the whole sit. After a while scanning seemed superfluous to requirement so I just breathed and "let it happen" --it was a good decision I think. Lots and lots of long, deep, significant shifts in perception --fun rides each one of them in an equanimous kind of way. Reactivity was pretty much zero - I just scanned the full body once every so often for the sake of it and let it all happen.

At the highest point, near the end (I don't think i've gone this far before..) there was a little "moment" and a modest wave of "loveliness" that left me feeling very euphoric and "well".

When I sat down with some warm milk afterward the feeling of wellness and rightness with the world was really something. Not earth shatteringly so but I don't remember ever feeling so "nice".

One hour later...
The wellness has faded quite a bit. I don't think this was the big one, but it certainly seems like a bit of progress (and it's been a while since that happened, so that's good!)

It's funny how the mind/body seems to know what to do when it's ready to do it. I remember the first time I went out of the A&P and through the DN to EQ --exactly the same, it did it all by itself, with no help from "me"!

Sat for an hour this morning..

Started off breathing and quickly got to a point similar to yesterday's last 2 sits. Where the pleasure in the body built up and up with each breath. It was not as intense as last night, and did not feel "absorbed" and was not uncomfortable as it built. Just a lot of pleasure in the body.

Moved to scanning and could have sworn i was in A&P territory as the fizz was courser then when in EQ and I got 3-4 "pleasant shudders" --worth noting that it is not warm in the UK today, so these could just be the body shivering. After this, there was a familiar dampening of all the fizz, like what happens in dissolution during scanning for me and I thought "ah! okay, A&P/Dissolution, no problem.." but like a few days back there was no discernible DN like sensations following this, I used to recognise at least Fear and Reobservation but they were not detectable. I went straight into EQ like territory. Fine streaming fizz, lessening reactivity etc.

One funny thing was that around the time I was starting to think I was in EQ there was a sudden jhanic shift (during scanning) just like the first sit from yesterday. A definite "switch being thrown" sensation resulting in a pleasant, but not overly so cool jhanic state. It took several more full scans of the body for this to break up and progress to continue.

I ended in something very similar to the last sit yesterday. Very high EQ (by my own gauge, i can't know how high it goes of course), next to zero reactivity but no multiple perception shifts - smoother, more even.

No massive feeling of wellness/euphoria either.

Interesting times..

Afternoon sit was a bit disrupted but interesting nonetheless

Same kind of jhanic experience as this morning but with more absorption and more intense. I don't find it so scary any more, but it's still very powerful. I was in this state within a few minutes and stayed in it for maybe 10 before moving on to scanning. I got a thud thud thudding heartbeat during the jhana and figured it might be just the intensity of it but turns out not..

The thudding heart was a central theme of most of the sit. Typically for me this signifies Fear, Reobservation or sometimes Low EQ --no way to tell till afterward. While my heart was thudding away I had many of the perception heightening shifts I would normally associate with EQ territory but also some odd kind of "rocking", "out of phase" "falling" "slanting" kind of sensations. Like "me" was sometimes not quite in my body. It was pretty good stuff.

Eventually I started to get a really nasty "somethings in my shirt!" kind of crawly sensation around the neck that would not go. The heartbeat did go though. I ended like that.

My thought would be Fear, Misery --oddly though, I would normally whizz through the DN stages in one sitting. But today I spent ages in Fear (if im right of course - supporting evidence might be Dissolution this morning) but I can't quite explain the fact that I ALSO observed many of the phenomena I would normally associate with EQ.

Lastly, I still feel happy and energised. If that was Fear and Misery, bring it on Disgust! I got your number buddy!

whazzat all about? care to elaborate?

Hi Jill

Well, I used to describe these as rising/falling sensations, not being able to tell which. Feels like motion, but usually gentle and smooth and always ending in a much finer detail of the sensations being observed. (much finer fizz..) A little while back I realised they were not rising/falling at all, but going forward. Like when the millennium falcon goes into hyperspace and all the stars come streaming toward the window -- like that.

These can be fairly short, middling or long but they are almost always gentle, and are sometime accompanied by slight shifts in where I think "I" am afterward --like a sidewise leaning where im every so slightly apart from the physical body.

Does that help?

so this millenium falcon has had repeated wah-zips? are you able to recall the first time it happened, and how it affected you and your practice?

mainly i was interested in the bolded phrase, "significant shifts in perception"...your response above (at the very least) points to changes in types of sensations--were they just that, or were those "shifts" also changes in the way all sensations were being perceived? if so, how? any shifts in the perceiver?


what sort of "I" are you referring to here--I my body? vague sense of self? observer? doer? etc.

jill

On retreat I think in November. They don't seem so significant, just a noticeable change in the level of perception of sensations whilst meditating.

I don't think they have had any special affect off the cushion, just during high equanimity like territory in my sits. Somtimes they have some faint visuals, but mostly it's just a feeling of motion that sometimes seems to take a long time and ends up with greater perception.



Im not really sure. Just a kind of split. Body here, something else just slightly apart or out of phase with it momentarily.

Sat for an hour this evening..

Started with a really awful sharp headache behind the right eye - as I started to follow the breath. As the pleasure kicked in (this took considerably longer than previously) it went away. Seemed like that may have been the tail end of Reobservation -or maybe just a headache - The jhana was not so absorbed, and really seemed to be a bit of a nuisance now the novelty has worn off a bit. My working theory is that the jhanas are seem to be eaiser, longer lasting, more absorbed if Im in EQ.

Went through what appeared to be low EQ - a few irritating sensations but the fine streaming fizz got more and more as I built up momentum in scanning the body. Near the top of the hour I was mostly trying to let it happen with full body awareness and there was plenty of zooming in of the perception threshold aka millennium falcon type stuff but it was not as far along the road as yesterday evening.

I've felt great all day today, but I'm tired now.

So my practice seems to be past the high point of Thursday evening

I seem to be back in more familiar territory again. Low - Mid EQ. I really hope after I get stream entry I have more hours like the one after the Thurs evening sit. The feeling of well being was fantastic, and I was in a really great, stable mood all Friday. I imagine I broke a bit of new ground that night, and if it turns out true to previous experience of such things it will begin to happen a bit more often, till the new ground becomes the old ground --we will see.

For now, practice continues...

As an addition, my experience of these "wah-zips" lines up exactly with this. The advice in Ron's article about not getting over excited and "just letting it happen" is spot on. My thursday night episode was a pretty good case-book study of that entire process and technique bar actually getting SE.

I'd forgotten about this, but just re-read it today. It's superb stuff.

PS: The last commenter notes that he does not go into high EQ sitting, but only when he lays down. My experience is the same. I've not actually sat since November

Simplicity, wonder, well-being. I would add that there can be, and I experienced this, agitation in the face of the space-in-all-perceptions, a restlessness towards/with this non-familiar apperception. I did not want to go back to the troubled, ruminating, moody mind, but I experienced something like agoraphobia or agitated-looking-around. Former affective attachments became holograms, but I would reach for them anyway, to find that each attachment was the same in having no stable quality to hold. That felt like having no support. This feeling reflected a habitual view of self - rigid centering requiring support to maintain rigid centering. Then, relaxed, there can be almost infinite pointillism in the sense faculties and natural gentleness and free activity. Good luck.

further, the sense was not one of having gotten, but of free release, then free.

Hi Katy. Sorry, I can't understand anything you're saying there. Would you mind trying that again with simpler language?

I *think* you might be talking about how i've felt the last couple of days. (i was going to post today about this!): I've felt almost depressed the last few days. Restless, dissatisfied and slightly irritable. Listless, lethargic.

I guess it may be that Im in low-eq kind of territory but it could just be the subconscious memory of that amazing feeling on Thurs/Fri and the subtle grief for it's loss.

No idea, but worthy of note.

Through mindfulness (in daily action, attending to actuality) and meditation, I become aware of the nature of mental perception and how I form myself in various perceptions. Realizing this, I became agitated in the limbo - unable to refute what I was learning through experience and analysis, and maintaining resistance to this awareness-understanding. This resistance relates to well-being and suffering. Will an inability to form certain perceptions cause my suffering or well-being? Some perceptions relate clearly to suffering (i.e., perhaps like perceiving and resisting thickened, polluted air), and others perceptions are more elaborate (i.e., perhaps like holding the perception that whiter teeth are somehow better (the elaboration on desire to be desirable or not to be excluded). In the open mental field, fear of suffering stood tallest to me in perceiving the affective field. (Perhaps this is one of the sufferings of suffering, Samkhara-dukkha). There is a fair bit of behaviour (like discrimination, anti-egalitarianism, collusion versus merit) that is passed for "inclusion" and "level-playing", insecure socializing/society passed as "security". Anyway, basic practices remain handy here: mindfulness in actions (mental faculty placed in the action, be the actions conceptual analysis or cleaning up or listening or planning [playing, etc]).

[This release of holding fear of any change to suffering/well-being was just a release of a perseverating mood (a mood being extended pervasively and seemingly subtly(or its pervasiveness made it less visible until other perceptive lens were also seen) and results in an ability to be mobile/choice-ful in action/living, which living is an experience of infinite unknowns including duration so I accept and enjoy this freedom (which does not feel like a terminus, rather a start of comfortable learning/unassuming).]

[So, the relationship between my post which you queried and this one is, in part, one trying to express my initial unease with the terms of freedom, a resulting effort to take-up former or new activities with mindfulness alone (and ignoring the boundless field of perception) and then being ready to see the fear of no conditions, then welcoming it, knowing its peacefulness and its capacity to gently care/attend and wait, if those actions are perceived as relevant in some circumstance.]

[edits: in brackets]

Hey Bagpuss.

Do you mind if I ask what your intention is in keeping this journal?

Thats all a bit complicated for me Katy. Im a bit of a black/white kinda pussy cat. I like fish, and having my tummy tickled...

Same as everyone else I would guess Thom: Keep a record for my own reference. Get some help form more experienced yogis. Hope those exchanges help others as well.

Why?

Ha!

Ok, so, I am just thinking that this feeling of "getting stream entry" is a bit not relevant, in my opinion. I think a feeling of release is perhaps a more fitting expectation, if there's going to be an expectation. Basically: more energy for fish and tickles, less self-imposed suffering.

Ah... Now I'm with you. I strongly suspect my desire for SE is an obstacle in disguise. And "release " is spot on I think.

Ok great those are good reasons for keeping a journal, but I would really question the effectiveness of how you are doing it at the moment. More on that in a sec...

Firstly, the desire for stream entry is only an obstacle if you let it turn into an obstacle. If you let it fuel unskilful and unhelpful practice such as over-speculation about "where you are" etc it is an obstacle. If you use that desire to fuel good practice then it's not an obstacle. 5 minutes a day of speculation about where you are, what stages you might have hit in your sit is probably already too much. Do you really need to spend this time on speculation? Do you think this will help you towards your goal? If so, fine, but if not, are you actually ready to leave some habits behind to help you start really getting it done?

Anyway, the trick is to work on your ability to figure out whether what you're doing is helpful, or not. It's all very well knowing you want results on the path for more fish and tickles (a good intention methinks) but it's another thing to be able to self adjust accurately to give yourself the best chance of progress happening.

This is where skillful journalling comes in. Entries such as this really have very little value as far as I can see:

"I seem to be back in more familiar territory again. Low - Mid EQ. I really hope after I get stream entry I have more hours like the one after the Thurs evening sit. The feeling of well being was fantastic, and I was in a really great, stable mood all Friday. I imagine I broke a bit of new ground that night, and if it turns out true to previous experience of such things it will begin to happen a bit more often, till the new ground becomes the old ground --we will see."

Here you make no mention of what it was that led you to speculate (again) about where you are. People who know the territory can't help you if you don't explain what your experience was, and in the same way, less experienced yogis can't learn from the process. As Tarin said in some thread once, more important than the stages and states is the insights that are arising from them. This is where the meat is, and this is what turns it more hardcore, pragmatic, effective.

Some questions that lead to more insightful journalling (and more valuable self reflection) might be:

Sit-specific questions - What was your intention before the sit? How were you applying the practice instructions or techniques? What happened in your perception? What were you able to percieve or NOT perceive (often equally useful) How were the 3Cs showing themselves (if at all) and if they weren't, were you trying to do anything about this?

More general but incredibly helpful questions - What sort of questions do you ask yourself about practice? How do see your tendencies in practice affecting the results? How do you know you are "progressing"? What criteria are you using?

Anyway, I hope I don't appear overly critical, I think it's awesome that you're motivated to keep a practice diary, and that you're sitting regularly and paying some sort of attention to the the ongoing process of self reflection and self adjusting. In the absence of a really good teacher, really upping our ability to self-correct is crucial for profound progress.

This forum is, after all, meant to be in service of hardcore meditation!

Cheers,

Thom

True. As I said, part of the reason for writing is for my own record. I talk phenomenologically when appropriate. There it was it was not necessary. That's just one post among many, and acts purely as pointer/comment that the high point which was described phenomenologically is now over.

I am not going to triple-think everything I post in this thread.

This can be a "good" desire, and only a mild obstacle. As a mild obstacle it is more of a signal about the current level of practice and intention: the affective aspect of mind (desire) impatiently starts to signal louder than the intellectual capacity of mind (thinking things like how stream-entry may be), and, between the affective and intellectual aspects, the mental faculty may toss both loud aspects out and focuses on the simplicity of awareness, a quiet use. So, as this desire builds it can usefully get itself thrown out, when the mind is ready to practice efficiently in its awareness/mindfulness capacity. Like a physical activity, the mind prepares for this (in sitting and attention-to-everything mindfulness) and some days are better/worse than others. Since we've talked yoga before, I'll compare: it can be like one day the wrists/balance are still not ready to stay in bakasana, and then one day something has changed and it feels like one could stay there quietly and stably for a while.

I sat for 2 hours today.

Most of my long sit today was dominated by thudding heartbeat and slightly courser tingling sensations as I scanned the body. This would typically precede moving onto nice "waves"/"wha-zips" into higher EQ type stuff but for the past few days I've been going nowhere. The mind wanders more than it did a week or two back, the ability to easily generate good samadhi is gone and I seem to be on a low ebb. Oh, and a nice full on forehead tension accompanied me throughout, just to round things off

I don't feel too bad off the cushion. This is kids-stuff compared to the real DN stuff I was going through when I started this thread. IN fact I'd say I felt pretty damn good.

With about half an hour to go (i would guess) i dropped scanning as I was continuously forgetting what I was doing and where I'd gotten up to (when i can catch it, i've observed this usually happens when I allow the mind to contemplate the "whole head" or "whole back" after scanning it) and having to start again. I lay there and just "noticed" the sensations in the whole body with the intention of just seeing what happened.

I got one sensations very reminiscent of the wave/rush of the perceptual threshold increasing which went on for a bit, but then the bell went and I was done.

I figure I might spend my next sit doing just anapana and deliberately not get absorbed in it (not that that seems to be a problem these days!) and see how that affects my sit.

My sits have ranged a bit these last few days or so...

I've spent a lot of sits with coarse, prickly sensations and pretty dominant forehead tension as well as thudding heartbeat but after talking with Jill in email I think im on track and making some progress. Here's a few observations:

Forehead tension
I can now control this during anapana and sweeping. Mostly it's an intuitive relaxing and "easing back", but putting a lot of emphasis on relaxing (really, really relaxing) during the anapana has also helped. The trick is to not let it build. Once the tension is there, Im stuck with it for the rest of the sit. If I relax it each time it starts to build, I can avoid it entirely (mostly).

The emphasis on relaxing has produced some some very nice samadhi over the last 2 or 3 days. Not absorped, not jhanic in any way much, but really calm, still, and deep. More on this in a bit.

Better Samadhi
I've been giving over a whole half hour (of a one hour sit) to anapana in an effort to get better samadhi prior to sweeping. This has worked wonders. As I breath out I relax, and each time I feel the body sinking down, mind sinking down, tension draining. It's a surprisingly easy and pleasant practice.

The actual practice is based on EIS's posts on splitting the attention between the anapana spot and the whole body awareness. In my case it's equally split with the feeling of relaxation. I can feel all three factors and have been getting more skilled at balancing them. Topping up one factor when it flags, deemphasising another when it's gets to dominant etc. It makes the anapana very active in a nice kind of way that seems to have the added bonus of not giving the mind much room to go walkabout!

Technique
I think during my long spell in and around high EQ i managed to get a bit lazy with my technique. Its a very effortless state after all. Paying very close attention to scanning slowly at first, but paying fast attention to sensations, then building up to scanning at no more than a moderate speed through the body I've felt myself coming up out of the low ebb i've been in for the past week or two. Combined with the emphasis on better samadhi this seems like a winner.

Breath Awareness
I am trying to be at least roughly aware of every in and out breath through the day. This is not easy. I am not good at it, and I keep forgetting! But i'm trying.. I can't report any results from this yet.

Currently...
Yesterday I had a very clear case of slip back into reobservation territory. Coarse prickly sensations on the body, headache, nasty intense burning pinpoint sensationns on the nose/mouth area, thudding heartbeat etc. It broke into low EQ - same stuff, not bothered by it.. and since then I have progressively been inching toward EQ like territory again. No "waves" or other high EQ like stuff but a nice even, uniformly fine fizz through the body with very little reactivity and an "well that was okay" kind of feel to it.

Im still doing 2hrs a day, though often I get to do 3.

Last night i missed my window of opportunity in getting to sleep - (10:20 almost falling asleep brushing teeth, 10:40 after some unavoidable chores ---wide awake!)

As I lay there, not even paying attention to the breath my mindbody started to meditate all by itself. There was a lot of "zooming in" kind of sensation in the mind/head but little bodily fizz. Lots and lots of light. After a while it just stopped. Unfortunately i was disturbed a couple of times while this was going on.

In the past when this has happened it started much like this then became the norm. The last time was when I first went the whole way through the dukkha nanas into equanimity.

Hopefully this is a good sign. Possibly it's just a sleep-thing though. Worth noting but we'll see if it happens again.

Meditation of late has been marked by a lack of concentration. Mind wandering, spacing out, losing the breath, not having enough concentration to effectively scan the body.. etc.

This has led me to revisit my old love, anapana sati. I've been reading Josh RS' practice thread which is an absolute goldmine of good links and discussion.

I've had a bit of a cold which doesn't help, but for the present moment im all about the in-breath and out-breath in an attempt to regain some samadhi.

One of the things that I picked up on from EIS and Josh (and his links to Ajahn Lee's stuff) as well as Culdasa's writings (wow, what a treasure! no pun intended!) is the concept of "finding what works" rather than dogmatically sticking to a set technique. I'd kind of been doing this in my attempts to lessen forehead tension but now im actively working with the breath as well as observing it and it seems good. Very good. Concentration is still appalling, but Im hoping to remedy that in short order using these slight alterations to the practice.

I generally observe the whole body throughout and have much "fuzz" going on, sometimes nearing pleasure, often reminiscent of the kind of sensations associated with mid EQ (very fine flowing fuzz.. and ease) but a long way from any kind of even weak jhanic experience.

Im down to an hour a day for the next few days as I get over this cold. We'll have to see what all this change does to my base level of insight --i'd really rather not slip too far back into DN but scanning the body without any kind of real samadhi is a largely fruitless task anyways..

Your thoughts welcome...

This accords with my experience!

My anapanasati practice continues...

This morning I sat for 30mins till my upper back pain became fairly unbearable then lay for the next 30mins. I'd managed to build up some good low level pleasure and concentration sitting, but within minutes of lying down i got a shift into 1st jhana type territory. The vibrations on the nostril tip + rhythm of the body moving and the energy flowing through the body combined to "shift" into feeling piti through the body and a a warm satisfaction (sukkha?) in the mind. As i deepened this, it got a bit curious...

I had 4 or 5 shifts (maybe spikes would be a better word) where the pleasure / level of concentration increased then evened out. These were clearly not jhanic state shifts. Toward the end i realised that whereas in the beginning I was feeling the fabricated "energy" flowing though the body, I was now feeling the very fine fizz (gazillions of tiny pinprick sensations) on the body. I did not consciously do this.

My tentative surmise is that I was doing a mix of vipassana and concentration and experiencing the gentle "waves" of perception increases that precede high equanimity, but this time coupled with the pleasure of the concentration I was in.

Sounds daft I know. That's how it felt though.

The upper back pain was often an obstacle when I was last on retreat. It often worked out that I could get into EQ sitting, but to get into high EQ i had to lie down. I've heard at least one other person say exactly the same. This would seem to support my hypothesis. I'll have to do it a a few more times to be sure.