1) Utter centerlessness: no watcher, no sense of a watcher, no subtle watcher, no possibility of a watcher. This is immediately obvious just as color is to a man with good eyesight as the old saying goes. Thus, anything and everything simply and obviously manifest just where they are. No phenomena observe any others and never did or could.
2) Utter agencylessness: meaning no agency, no sense of doing, no sense of doer, no sense that there could be any agent or doer, no way to find anything that seems to be in control at all. Whatever effort or intent or anything like that that arises does so naturally, causally, inevitably, as it always actually did. This is immediately obvious, though not always the forefront of attention.
This is a question for those who claim 4th path and who also have experience of the PCE and/or AF. Not entirely practical, but it may lead to something interesting. The quote above is from Daniel's response on another thread describing some aspects of 4th path, I thought it'd be better to bring it to a seperate thread and discuss it more rather than cluttering up the other thread.
Anyway, what's interesting to me about these parts of Daniel's descriptions is that they sound like they could also be describing a PCE even though they're clearly not. I'm fairly confident that what I attained last year was 4th path and I've also had clear, memorable enough experiences of PCE before and after that point to know what was no longer there while in one. I'll probably go around the houses in an attempt to ask this question but I'm trying to communicate it as clearly as I can.
There was something in the Hurricane Ranch tape where Tarin pointed out to Daniel about something he was "taking for granted" in a PCE and then goes on to mention the centerlessness apparent while in PCE. My understanding of the reason for Tarin mentioning this and pointing it out to Dan was that, being an Arahat, centerlessness would be a constant part of this experience and so he wouldn't notice anything different about that aspect while in PCE.
Reading Dan's descriptions and remembering that bit from the recording made me think that perhaps the PCE could be a useful diagnostic tool for those who think they've gotten 4th path?
I can understand why Daniel would have taken it for granted that the experience of a PCE would be centerless, but I can remember how incredible the absence of a center seemed in PCE before getting 4th path. Looking back to that long PCE, it doesn't make any sense for me to consider centerlessness as anything other than the way things are already, of all the amazing, wonderful things about being in PCE it definitely wasn't something noteworthy.
Is this something anyone else has noticed or gave much thought to?
