Hey gang,

I've been keeping a journal over at KFD here:http://kennethfolkdharma.wetpaint.com/thread/4790704/Stream+Entry+or+Bust?offset=40

Basically, it seems I've had access to varying depths of what I take for Equanimity since last summer. I have long peaceful sits featuring intense energetic sensations at the forehead and crown. My mind state tends to be placid, although with a tendency to wander at times. I don't experience body pains or unpleasant emotions as in the past while sitting.

I have used noting in other stages, but for EQ have mostly followed the instruction to "let it happen." At different times, I have focused my attention on the inner sense of self, the sense of space, the sense of watching, the periphery of space, the center of the head, the buzzing sensations... .

Lately, the biggest change has been relative success in letting go of the desire for stream entry. I just thought I'd check in here and see if anyone had a fresh take on my practice. My impression is that it is uncommon to linger in EQ this long.

All input is appreciated. Thanks!

J

Hi J B,

I've been in and around EQ since August also. I heard Shinzen Young talking about experiencing formations for over a year. It'll be interesting to see what others say.

Personally I seem to have levelled out at the lower end of equanimity. Im hoping to make significant progress on an upcoming retreat.

Possibly it's hard to make progress when you're living the usual busy householders life?

Hi Bagpuss,

I moved from low to high equanimity, in general, when I started practicing more concentration with my sits. I followed the advice here: http://kennethfolkdharma.wetpaint.com/page/Jhana+and+%C3%91ana

Basically, he says that the primary instruction after A+P should be in concentration.

AS for householders making progress, there seem to be plenty around. I sit about 90 minutes to 2 hours per day, more when I can. I'm sure a retreat would be helpful, but it's not in the cards for now.

Do you have a link to the Shinzen talk you mentioned?

Thanks!

Hi J.B.,

I've been in the same boat, more or less, since April 2011. My first go-round with just sitting with the "let it happen" vibe tossed me into a major nasty bout of reobservation. For a while I'd go back and forth between reobservation and equanimity, but as time passed the reobservation became less and less of a big deal.

Now the only reobservation-like phenomena I experience is snarly bitchiness to the inner chatter and the thought that it's never going to happen. With regard to snarly/bitchy yada yada, I realize it's going on and sort of think "Eh, so what?"

In have reasonable jhana skills and do a lot of sitting. I want to try more of the looking at stuff that's there and then not there or different between jhanas that one is supposed to get insight from.

I do that stuff you mention, looking at space, sense of self, the watcher, etc., and wonder if I'm doing that enough.

I though I popped right after Christmas, but it was just some energy thing that happened. Then it went away.

Eric

Thanks, Eric. Looks like I have more company than I thought. Can't complain really. There are less pleasant realms to be stuck in.

Sorry no. I think it's only available on his audio series "science of enlightenment". You can get in at audible.com and i highly recommend it. He basically talks about giant, realistic insects being part of his eery day life for a year!

Funny you should mention concentration. I'be had 2 sits today where I did not do my normal sweeping practice but followed the jhana stuff as far as I could with anapana --both times I ended up in what I think of as high EQ (or very close to it anyway) which is serious progress for me after not being there for a month or more now..

I'll have to see how that pans out. I'll fill in more details in my practice thread tomorrow but I think you may have set me on the right track there so thanks



Absolutely. And if you're in High EQ, then you're really in a good place!

Sounds like you're hitting High Equanimity to me, always a good thing.


Saying "let it happen" doesn't tell the full story, it's true in that it's something you don't really have a say in and something that'll happen with or without your permission but you can at least increase the chances of it, stream entry, happening by looking at a few subtle things that are going on.

Equanimity is concentration territory. You don't need to go in heavy the same way you did in the earlier stages, objects will present themselves for your inspection so you don't need to go looking for anything, just look at how these things happen and observe the 3C's clearly. Begin to look at what it is it that's observing this happening, turn the attention towards what's seeing this happen and pay attention, it'll happen by itself when it happens so investigate gently and see how all things are just more of the same impermanent, empty flickering tensions. If you see it just right, you'll know.

Good luck, remember and let us know if you land it!

I'm a little confused here:



If we are observing 3C's, why is it concentration territory? I understand you can never really fully separate concentration/insight, but should I be artificially solidifying stuff here, or tuning into the flickering? Thanks for the help!

Tommy,

That does seem to help, although it's hard to say how. I feel like I'm making progress, dissolving more of the sense of self. Getting there faster, almost at will. Distinguishing between "watching the watcher," and watching the process of perception. So, thanks.

Bud, I'm sure Tommy can answer your question better, but I'll take a crack at it. It's a question of ratio. There's more concentration and stillness in high EQ, but not necessarily artificially dissolving. The awareness of the 3C's in my meditation is relatively passive. For awhile, I would run through them occasionally like a check list. Now, I'm working on keeping that sense of reality more constant. It's like a shuttling back and forth between direct perception and intellectual understanding. The latter ultimately leading more and more into the former. That's my experience anyway.

J

Yea, the concentration and stillness (getting away from the hindrances) smooths out the process. Shuttling without the artillery fire, or at least less artillery fire.

Stephen Snyder and Tina Rassmussen talk about the the "thinning of the self". Although what they are referring to strictly pertains to jhana, and hard jhana at that, I like the phrase with regard to the vibe in high EQ.

JB puts it really well when he says that it's a question of ratio, there's a balance to it that's sort of like tuning in a radio to the station you want to hear or dialing up a good tone on an amp. You know when you find it because it sort of clicks, things begin to line up and you can see what needs to be seen.

Don't solidify things, you'll end up stuck in 4th jhana which, while thoroughly enjoyable, isn't what you want to be doing if you want stream entry. Get that balance between stable concentration and attentive, alert investigation then stay with it. It's easy to drift off or get complacent while you're in Equanimity just because everything seems so natural and effortless, there's also little dropouts which you can mistake for fruitions so staying alert and curious about what's happening will, hopefully, prevent mistaking things or losing focus.

Watch the flickering, see if you can follow it from the moment it arises till the moment it passes, catch what's happening in between the frames of reality as they flicker in and out of existence. This is seeing fundamental impermanence, all observable phenomena including the sense of the observer itself can be seen to flicker in this way, what does that tell you about the observer? If it can be seen then it can't be the things that's observing it, so what's actually observing it?! If it's not the thing which is observing it, and it's a flickering, impermanent sensation then it's not going to satisfy you because it'll just vanish again in a second! Seeing the 3C's clearly is as simple as looking at the way in which all sensate phenomena behaves; it's a conceptual framework which allows you to see the world in a certain way, a way which is incredibly effective at showing you, in the most in-y'er-face-then-booting-you-right-in-the-swingers way, what it is that leads to suffering.

Is that any more useful? Ask away if you have any questions, I can only base this stuff on my own experience but I'm happy to help anytime. Your own experience will show you much, much more anyway. ; )

Perception occurs without you having to do anything, the senses do their thing without you needing to get involved so let that go and tune into what could still be doing the watching. I may have misinterpreted what you've said so this advice may not be all that useful but I thought I'd mention it, just in case.

I've replied to Bud in a separate post but the advice there may be of use to you too.

Glad it was helpful!

That is helpful, thanks.

I have been starting my noting sessions with 20 minutes of breath counting to build concentration, just because I've been stagnating a bit in low EQ (stagnating is a strong word, I've only been in this territory for a couple months now) and hear people talking about dialing up concentration post-4th nana.

Do you think it is advisable to skip counting and just dedicate the full hour to noting? Is my take on concentration at this stage too literal? I find solidying and counting the breath somewhat difficult at this point anyway, since attention seems naturally inclined to tune in to flickering on it's own.

You're welcome!


Having access to jhana makes the post-4th/pre-11th ñanas much easier to navigate, in fact Dark Night can end up being quite a relaxing experience if approached with a solid grounding in 3rd jhana so I'd definitely take that advice on board.


If you're comfortable enough in your concentration skills, go for it. When you're noting, keep it consistent and precise but loose enough so that you're not focusing really hard and ending up in jhana.


For me, Equanimity made it clear why the old texts don't differentiate between insight and concentration. One leads to the other quite naturally anyway, unless you're going into thing in super-close detail as the clarity with which the 3C's can be seen at that sort of level makes it really difficult to solidify anything.


That sounds fine, go with what feels natural and what allows you to stay present. I reckon you're not a kick in the arse away from it anyway, it's just a question of seeing how it's all playing out by itself and picking off whatever is still being seen as an observer.

Hey Tommy, I just finished a sit where my goal was to put more emphasis on observing the beginning and end of sensations. In the middle of the sit I realized that the act of making the mental note was obscuring the clear ending of sensations and in some cases cutting them off before they passed naturally, so I just started to just notice without using any labels.

Once I started to do this, instead of the flickering frame type of thing I usually get I found sensations coming in longer pulses/waves, many of which I could notice the beginning, peak, and ends of. The flow of these waves was consistent, about 1hz. This is a bit slower than what I'm used to (usually noting 2-3 sensations per second).

Maybe a dumb question, but is this the kind of thing I should be aiming for? It did feel a bit more natural as sensations were coming and going on their own time, and not being interfered with by the actual act of noting. I guess any feedback you have about my description would be helpful, thanks again for your time.

(and sorry for hijacking this thread!)

Excellent, that's exactly what you're after.


Good stuff, this is where it gets even more interesting...turn attention in towards what still seems to be a self, or an observer and look at how that does the same thing. There might be a slight pulling towards the centre of the head, maybe something like a bouncing back and forth of attention but it's so subtle that it's easy to overlook if you're not right there in that instant. Set em up, knock em down.


Not a dumb question at all, everything sounds really good and your descriptions are familiar from my own practice so I see nothing to stop you from landing it. Keep doing what you're doing and see how it works out, one thing to bear in mind is that it'll happen when you don't expect it to happen. You can't predict it or feel it coming, it's just like bump-bump-bump-GONE in a instant but the difference afterwards is...well, I'll leave you to find out for yourself. Ha!

Hopefully JB has got some use out of the stuff we've talked about anyway, that's one of the great things about this site; everyone chips in and you've got a range of different takes on the thing which may just give you what you were looking for!

Yes, I'm following this, and it's all helpful. Hiijackers welcome! Erm, so to speak. But I'm not sure I have the hang of watching the beginning and end of sensations. My experience is of a highly pixillated field of sensations, visually and tactile. Analagous to TV snow - not in color or sound, but in the continuity of it. It's like intense, pressurized tingling. So, impermanence is easy to see, not-self is easy to see, and unsatisfactoriness is easy to see. Beginning and end - that's hard. When I look for it, the closest I come is a sense of emptiness in the background, but I'm only partly sensing it, partly positing, I think. The sense of self I can watch and include in the field of pixillated awareness.

as a dissenting opinion


physical pain during sits that leads to easier sits with buzzy engetic stuff and a gunning for stream entry vibe with a sense that you are now stagnating all makes me think Three Characteristics to A&P to Dark Night something, not Equanimity

real equanimity has a very different feel, is wider, concerned with core truths, is generally not buzzy or vibratory, is broad, cool, easy, perhaps not even noticeable as it may be such a non-dramatic thing

No pain here, nor a gunning vibe. Buzzy and energetic, yes. Stagnating, with a question mark. Would you suggest I return to noting, Daniel?

Maybe I'll just set the diagnosis aside and start a new practice journal over here since I seem to be getting more feedback. Thanks to everyone for your insights.

J

I'm with Dan on this one based on this description, it may be that you're getting up into Equanimity during your sits, based on your earlier description and you posts on KFD, but what you've said here sounds more like early Dark Night territory. The pixelated sense field definitely reminds me of DN, as does the fact that you're not able to catch sensations so I'd work on experiencing as much of each sensation as you are able to and seeing the 3C's clearly.

When you say that you notice a "sense of emptiness in the background", could you describe that a bit more? Try looking at the sensations which make up that background, emptiness can't be "sensed" so investigate what those sensations are too. Don't be fooled by anything you can actually perceive, everything is fair game.

Edited to add: Don't worry about replying, I'll post on your practice thread.

You have to deal with whatever is going on on its own terms while trying to see what it is missing.

Things that focus on one area, or the body, or the head, or buzzing stuff, or energetic stuff, or whatever are missing the integrated picture, the volumetric aspect, the whole aspect, as well as generally core process aspects: investigation itself, looking itself, seeking itself, asking itself, wanting itself, frustration itself, analysis itself, which are deeper, more subtle somehow, more background, and it is background in general that gets missed.

So, my practice advice: meet the thing on its own terms, but realize there is something just outside of your clear focus that you are missing, something closer, something more you, something that it seems you couldn't or shouldn't or just didn't think of investigating and seeing also as not self, as just things happening, and it usually includes the wider, more inclusive sensations that make up space, effort, things that seem to be subject, skull, eyes, attention, and the like.

Equanimity also has this almost childlike, innocent, very real, non-idealized, almost fantasy-like honesty, very down to earth in its high-dreaminess thing at times, and something of that can help. Where do your dreams of realization take you when you just let them spin out as they do on their own and go with that?

Yes, I've come across similar statements from you, and have attempted to examine all those things. It's just that the examination, while having a placid, easy quality, didn't really seem to yield insights or state changes. I can see and feel the vibratory nature of things. While doing so, my concentration may increase, my sense of space may change, energetic changes may occur - although when they do, I don't necessarily focus on them...

I think one obstacle may be that I haven't done a great job of describing things. There is a sense that it's all the same. There is a sense that I'm examining because I think I should, rather than a true spirit of investigation, which I once had.



That's an interesting question, and I'm not sure I understand it. I've disciplined myself to some extent to not fantasize about it as I've understood that I can't know what awakening is like, and craving for it is just more suffering. Actually, I think I look forward to freedom from all this damn arising and passing; freedom from tension; freedom from doubt and distraction. I'll think more about that.

Thanks.

Jason

Daniel this is something you mentioned on the Buddhist Geeks call a couple weeks ago, and like JB I'm a little confused by it. Are the fantasies and daydreams a way of bringing effort, seeking, core process stuff etc. to the foreground so we can investigate them - is that the practical angle here?

At the very peak of my practice I was getting a daydream like thing happen quite a bit. Each time it happened there was a "zooming in" sensation and the perceptual power of my mind rocketed up each time. It was as though the mind needed the distraction of the daydream to shift gears.

That seems like it might be related to what Daniel is saying.

Does that make sense to any of you guys?

Were you way up in Equanimity and allowed the mind's fantasy capacity, that naturally strongly concentrated ability to turn to the fundamental questions: what is reality, who am I, what is Buddha Nature, how does anything understand anything, where is emptiness, what would happen if the whole vanished, where do I go when I die, or whatever rings deeply for you, that is a way in.

I'm pretty sure I know just what you mean bptg - this happens quite a bit to me - it's feels like falling asleep for the briefest instant, then suddenly awakening to a new clarity, and sometimes a refreshed state of well being. Some very strong insights have happened in these moments, though I don't recall now what they were. I don't know what this is, but like you say, it does seem like a shifting of gears or something.

I thought I'd run this morning's journal entry through this thread and see what y'all think. I don't want to obsess over mapping, but I do want to avoid cul de sacs. So, about 20 minutes into my sit today...

"...I entered a very, very peaceful state, with no prominent gross sensations. That sense of centerlessness returned, and I welled up with gratitude and, for a moment, tears. It was difficult to note in this state, as nothing particular seemed to arise. But I continued to note about once every 3-5 seconds. I thought to look for the sense of self, but it seemed like I would have to generate it to find it, so I let it go. Toward the end I was slipping in and out of this state, reverting to itching, boredom, slight restlessness."

I'd had that sense of centerlessness a couple days ago, which is a new development. Is this EQ? The state seems a little different from where I was at the top of this thread, but the impulse to drop noting, and increase the ratio of concentration is similar, so I'm a little leary of that. On the other hand, I was definitely noting, moving my attention around a lot, so I don't think it was Jhana. I dunno.

As always, your insights are welcome and appreciated.

Daniel,

In MCTB, the Eqanimity chapter, right at the end, barely murmurs something about getting lost in a reverie and then, bam, conformity of knowledge. On this thread and elsewhere your (and Tommy's and Nick's) more detailed explanations are so helpful--do consider expanding on EQ in MCTB2 this way. I now have a much, much better notion of how I need to adjust the way I'm practicing now that I'm in EQ. Thank you!

Still, there is a period of predomninant vibration late into equanimity, just to had to the confusion. This confusion of diagnostic between pre-A&P and the desire for deliverance to equanimity little cycle is something we desperatly need to sort out on this forum. It seems that 1 post out of 3 is "Been in equanimity for a while, await Enlightenement". 

By the way, the world still wait for your video on equanimity pitfalls. 

Hey, uh, pardon, but what does EQ stand for?

I'm surprised I don't know, as I normally know a given term used in DO (I'm sure I'll laugh when you tell me).

I've Googled around but that's not helped.

You're going to hate(laugh at) this.

EQ stands for equanimity.

Duh, yes, of course. Thank you, Dom.

Does anyone know what was being referred to by the Jhana and Ñana link below? I'd like to review it. Thanks!

Some Guy]Hi Bagpuss,

I moved from low to high equanimity, in general, when I started practicing more concentration with my sits. I followed the advice here: http://kennethfolkdharma.wetpaint.com/page/Jhana+and+%C3%91ana

Basically, he says that the primary instruction after A+P should be in concentration.

AS for householders making progress, there seem to be plenty around. I sit about 90 minutes to 2 hours per day, more when I can. I'm sure a retreat would be helpful, but it's not in the cards for now.

Do you have a link to the Shinzen talk you mentioned?

Thanks!

https://www.dharmaoverground.org/dharma-wiki/-/wiki/Main/Jhana+and+%C3%91ana+


(google dharmaoverground folk jhana nana)