Hi all,

I've been having some interesting times with anapanasati the last few days. I put jhana-chasing to one side for a bit while I prepare for a Goenka retreat and have been working on the "one tiny spot" school of anapana sati.

Im having good success with:



By not controlling the breath at all, within a minute the breath becomes very fine and one pointed. Access concentration is very strong, but... it feels kind of intense / tense - like the body needs more air but isn't getting it and like the concentration is too strong.

Anyone know what I mean? Have any advice?

I tend to go with it and let it get stronger and stronger and stronger before allowing the attention to take in the whole body and then purposefully lengthening the breaths a bit and trying to ease up a little bit when access is really strong. This seems to work. Sometimes it results in jhana, sometimes not -- either way my body scanning afterward is pretty damn good.

Can anyone familiar with this style of anapanasati please tell me your experience?

Many thanks,

As you practice see if you can become aware of any tendency to 'try' and achieve success with this technique. Perhaps there is a subtle (or gross) grasping at a result , or sublte grapsing at the anapana spot that is causing the 'tension' you mention. If this is recognised in your experience then simpl apply this pointer to what you are already doing. See if there is a difference in 'tension' arising or not when paying attention as you already are versus an unfabricated way of paying attention. If you recognize that there is a difference, then you will know what to drop. In a sense it is simply like saying "relax!" and recognize that 'trying' need not be a part of doing the technique. Tension seems only to result when the mind tenses due to tendencies to 'try' too hard in my own experience.




Since it is working for you, keep doing it. It is good to really beef up concentration levels before hitting the ground running on a 10 day. I did well to do the same myself.



Similar experience to your own. Try and see if a more relaxed unfabricated approach to the same technique eases the 'tension'?

Nick

It certainly did! I think there's room for much refinement yet but I just finished my morning sit and this advice really helped a lot. Thanks Nick.

I tried to not grasp the anapana spot at all. This required constant correction at the start, but got much easier. The result was that the one-pointedness (in terms of continuous attention to an unmoving tiny spot below the nostrils) moved a little bit now and then (nbut not much) and wasn't quite so tiny, though still very small. It seemed quite natural and easy to observe this process from a perspective of above and slightly behind my head rather than being right "in" the process, "in" the spot. Hard to explain.

When it felt good and established I widened it out to the body naturally and this very quickly became an effortless gentle 1st jhana. Again I observed and tried not to "participate" which served to sustain the jhana factors and increase them in a non-tense way that was very conducive indeed. Again I had to intervene when "I" tried to manipulate, but it didn't require too much effort as at least in this first attempt it seems that the body-mind quickly worked out that this was a good thing...

Quite for the first time as I moved into sweeping the jhana factors stayed. I seemed to complete the full hour in jhana whilst doing my sweeping. Possibly easier as I would guess I'm back in early equanimity. There was lots of gentle forgetfulness and easily caught mind wandering but the perception of vibrations / sensations was really good --better with no interference.

I think I tend to "bear down" upon the object. This would be totally in character. Doing the opposite has helped enormously.

It remains to be seen how it works out over time but it sure seems like I've got your point, and that that point is well made.

Thanks again,

Try applying the unfabricated approach to all the sense doors at all times possible. It gets interesting to really start juxatposing that tendency to 'try' and 'grasp' at a result, or manipulate perception in some way and the fact that the sense doors are being bombarded without anyone 'trying' to perceive them. Perception occurs anyway, even without 'you' involved.

It can be done with any technique of meditation as well in my opinion, just sans 'trying' to do the technique. The technique due to 'intention', just happens. Very relaxed, very gentle and craving tendencies are relinquished. 'You' step out of the way of progress.

Glad it works for you. Will be interested to know how it pans out.

Nick

Yep. Afternoon sit followed much the same pattern. This time the "experiencing the whole body" part of the anapanasati instructions came without any conscious decision. When one pointedness was strong it just kind of "spread out" like a gentle slow wave of sensation quickly going into jhana.

Sweeping was less pleasant (though it started great, jhana factors wore off toward the end and I seemed to be in more DN like territory) but still very detailed and effortless.

Of course i've been doing this lying down, we'll see how I cope with it when Ive got mental upper back pain after days and days of sitting

Hi BtG:



Here are Leigh Brasington's comments on Access to 1st absorption (simple quick instructions): For myself, it was very common to start taking a longer breath when access concentration became apparent to me (such that I was staying a few seconds with noticing reduced breathe). I realized that I was lingering on that noticing and this action changed my attention to the chest and the reserve air, versus anapanasati, that if I returned to anapanasati, that the change from access to 1st absorption was swift. Like Nikolai and you've noted, it's not a forced or desired change. It's just a change as per instructions to stay with the anapansati object, detect pleasantness and let attention mind the pleasantness, like a free leaf stays passively with a breeze.

Hi Bagpuss (never thought I'd type that !)

I have had the same experience ! I was often getting to access quite quickly then getting almost too focused - resulting in headache / eye ache / general tension.

My teacher recommended getting to access concentration, then shifting to metta practice - this really helped me to get to jhana states and I often use this approach. I do a very simple metta, where I internally say to myself 'may x person be happy and well' (or something similar) - often starting with close family, then friends / colleagues. I used to shy away from metta practice, but it has helped me immensely, seemingly due to metta taking the 'I' out of things and preventing 'over focus' (if that makes sense). If you do try some metta, it might help to focus on your heart centre (or chakra, or middle dantien, or whatever other label suits!)

Good luck in your practice!

Jim

Thanks Katy, Jim

Katy I've read those instructions before but have never had much luck with it. I imagine i'd do well to spend like a week or so at it rather than the occasional 1 sit effort from time to time! The best i've managed is to notice how the sensations of the whole body are pleasant - above I have mentioned how this led to jhana. I've tried a smile but that doesn't seem to do it. Im inclined to continue to refine the whole body bit but put the emphasis on that rather than the breath as thats what seems more natural right now.

Jim, I guess you're in the UK then! Bagpuss was what I watched with my grandparents at pre-school age

I have done some metta, but not from the point of trying it after establishing access. That seems very interesting, but Im going to wait till after my retreat (starts next week) before trying it. I don't want to get too sidetracked from what they teach on the course.

---------

This morning was a mixed bag. Didn't really manage to not interfere as well as yesterday but also had this odd experience that when the breath almost vanished it suddenly started again and become very "choppy". Fits and starts. I seem to recall this being an indicator for one of the early nanas but can't recall which. I have not been aware of dipping below the A&P for some months now but I did have some distinctly A&P like shudders after this choppiness suddenly smoothed out all by itself.

I imagine progress though the nanas kept me from reaching jhana today (though it did come on weakly sometime after / during A&P like stuff.

Make any sense?

Hi Bagpuss - I am indeed in the UK and watched Bagpuss when I was little !

Jhana states can take a little while to get going and can come and go when you sit. With practice you can enter and leave more easily (so I have been told - I can't always get into them if I am sick/very tired/stressed!)

I wouldn't worry too much about it, maybe try a little metta after the retreat. I have never done nanas - but disappearance of the breath can happen in jhana states (but not always). The other thing to remember is that Jhana means the dropping away of the 5 hindrances and having a very concentrated mind, some of the jhana states can be quite subtle. I have experienced joy/happiness/contentment, but it wasn't quite as I expected (which is the problem when describing meditation experiences, they can be quite variable and are hard to describe !)

Hope all goes well on your retreat !

Jim

Hi Bagpus,

I was taught from a different perspective, Taoist, that the breath is based on ziran or the natural state just like the palm of a hand as it goes from clenched to open it is open and relaxed. The grip on the breath the contraction that holds the breath (the last of it) needs to be released.

One of the greatest contraction that holds the mind and qi is breath learn to let go and trust this. Trust that the breath will breath itself, it is not you breathing the breath breaths, it comes and goes, The Taoist put it as the great clockwork of heaven, breath moves in and out (ziran) as the breath goes out the universe breaths in when the universe breaths out you breath in

When the mind is open and relaxed same with the breath it becomes natural. Let go of holding on to it and recognize the perfection and the innate ability of life to exist without grasping it.

After birth breath starts to flow (the bellows of heaven) yet we cling to it , the mind gets pulled into the breath

Fully expire and wait for the breath to start, this is very hard at first and an easy way to recognize the tension, the clinging/grasping to breath. Learning to breath natural can have a big impact the nervous system, from muscle tension, anxiety, mental chatter and discomfort these feelings can be changed to one of ease , peace of mind, stillness, comfort and an overall sense of harmony and well being thru natural breathing

Your breathing continues constantly no matter what
your breath permeates your entire body

Check out the Russian Systema Breathing

cheers
Jeff

Yeh I can really feel the tension and stress in the breath Jeff. You're right, it's really hard to just let it be... I'll be working on it!

I do like it when you post on this kind of stuff, the perspective is really useful. Thanks.

Katy I think I understand what you mean. Today I am back in jhanas and for the first time I think I am able to "shift to the pleasant sensation". Previously I have been unable/unwilling to let go of the breath and have split my concentration between the two with varying degrees of success.

By dropping the breath and "tuning in" to the pleasantness of the sensations in the body I seem able to enter jhana more easily. The breath is still there, but on the peripheral. If I go back to it once pleasure is well established (as I think you suggest) it does indeed increase the pleasure.

I seem to go through a couple of degrees of physical pleasure and happy/content then there is a shift and the happiness drops and a kind of intensely pleasurable tingling prevails. Prior to today I've been calling that third jhana, but I think I'm wrong. Leigh's instructions would say to enter third you have to drop the physical, not drop the mental.

Not that it particularly matters right now, but... do you or anyone have an idea of what it is I might be experiencing here?

Does this intensely pleasurable tingling include a sense of body boundaries (e.g., one hand knows where it stops and the other begins) or has the tingling become such that there are (at present) just boundaryless areas comprised of energetic tingling (no ability to recognize limb-distinctions within the tingling); remaining, untingling areas are clearly "body", areas that are still distinct from other parts (e.g., lower legs recognize mutual separateness)?

edits for clarity

I know where all the parts are. I will double check this, but Im pretty certain I can distinguish the boundaries of fingers, arms legs etc.

There's a "lifting up" feeling and forehead tension where the forehead has been furrowed lifts as well. Fine-fizz/tingling takes over from pleasure. The tingling is fine, and I can't sense individual fingers unless I focus on them. It feels rather like a nana (a/p or eq like) from scanning but there is a real sense of the mind having transitioned out of the more intense (and much less calm) pleasure of before.

I was wrong about the tingling being pleasurable. It's not. It's just tingling. What is pleasurable is the calm quality of the state after the intense and agitated pleasure of before. (though this time after reading Leighs notes i worked on the happiness/contentedness just before this and that seemed to work pretty good.

I know it's a mish-mash of notes / stages / descriptions and whatnot. I don't really expect anyone to be able to pinpoint what's going on but for the sake of completeness, there it is! Best I can do

Thanks a lot Jill.

Oddly I have trouble with this to start with, but then if I return to it a bit later in the sit it seems easier. I thin I am still controlling the breath in the beginning and that is very stressful/tense. It's a really, really unpleasant feeling when the breath disappears at the start. Later on though I think I'm more relaxed and have managed to "let go" some. I'll have a good chacne to play with this on retreat (leave tomorrow, so unlikely to post again after this).

Also it's far worse sitting than lying. I must be bouncing around in the DN most of the day because Im all pain right now and huge tiredness. Balance, in all aspects of retreat, is going to be the key I think for me

I'll keep working on this.

Cheers,

* are you talking about all kinds of "tensions" here, including
emotions?

* the "seeing through the cause of [a tension]" is a new practice
advice from you. how do you see the cause of it? how does it go with
the usual advice of "stay aware and equanimous to sensations; treat
all sensations as same [having same nature]"? specifically, how do
you see the cause of a particular emotion or belief-pattern?

* further, how do you see the cause of a tension/emotion so that it
"never arises" again? certain emotions/beliefs continue to arise -
if only in a much lesser intensity (and so it doesn't bother me
much) - and i remain aware and equanimous of the body sensations. if
i can abondon it then and there, so that it "never arises" again, i
would be much exicited to try it out if it is different from
AF-style social identity analysis.

maybe you were only responding to a specific context (the tension of
breath) and i erroneously applied it to all emotions?

hi jill, i am deep in the tension jungle. i am currently framing the way I think about practice very much in terms of tensions, i judge success by how well i am able to relax tension. i equanimously observe tensions, trying to treat them like purely physical sensations, neither pushing or pulling and eventually they 'relax themselves.' I switch between zooming in on them, seeing everything at once, 'juxtaposing' them with actually physical sensations[1], looking beneath them[2], and doing various stuff with attention to melt them, mostly inspired by your practice advice from the past year or so.

there is one tension issue which i can't quite seem to melt however, which is that all this focusing and unfocusing creates all this eyebrow tension. my eyes, eyebrows, and cheeks sort of scrunch up (not sure if actually happening) and there is forehead pain, scalp pain etc. i've come to associate this type of tension with 'looking' at stuff, whenever i focus in on a small area of tension in the throat or chest or whatever the tension increases. the normal approach of equanimous observing didn't seem to work even with 10-20 minutes of continuous and equanimous observation so i started trying some other things. one approach was to watch the tension 'from' the back of the head, this just shifts the location of the 'watching' tension from the front to the back of the head so i gave up with that. the other approach was to 'allow consciousness to arise without 'me' looking' which was inspired by Nikolai's HP article riding the wave - unfabricated paying attention.

this did some stuff to alleviate the tension but left me confused about the nature of attention. i seemed to not be looking anywhere in particular when i inclined as far as possible towards that unfabricated paying attention thing, and it was as if 'i' couldn't know what was really going on in consciousness. i couldn't seem to focus in anywhere without creating the eyebrow tension and i couldn't seem to melt down tensions which were occurring elsewhere in the body in quite the same way without focusing in like that. I speculate that with the unfabricated attention of 'letting consciousness arise by itself' there was a sort of not-knowing tension or not-watching tension, because as the forehead tension melted there were a few little 'spurts' of fear which i associate with increases in a sense of 'centerlessness'. for this reason i am thinking that the unfabricated attention which wasn't located in any place on the body was actually doing the melting job fine but "i" was just nervous about not being involved.

so i am looking at a couple options given all that stuff.
1. simply use the forehead tension and melt down all the other tensions from this 'base' and forget about the existence of this untouchable base for now
2. do the unfabricated attention thing, so that i am not really focused on or 'from' anything/anywhere in particular and figure out the phenomenological manifestation of this idea that i don't know whats going on inside of consciousness... somehow
3. watch the forehead tension in the normal way (which seems to be what causes it)

I am currently experimenting with #2 but I'd like to hear your thoughts

thanks

[1] i picked up that tip somewhere from something you wrote, i didn't really know what you meant at the time but what I am doing now is 'feeling' the tension which exists in the throat for example inside of an actual painful sensation in the hip or knee, this seems to melt it down

[2] i just kind of noticed this worked some time - focusing exclusively on the physical sensations which are taking up the same space in the field of experience as the emotional tension to melt down the tension


melting down ftw

edit-one other random question, is there value in watching purely physical sensations other than directly using them to melt down tensions in an intentional way

i have been and am taking this advice, i hadn't previously done practice quite like this and now it is really going fast it seems, i seem to have cleared away what seemed to be a distinct 'layer' of tension in (perhaps) a permanent way and thought i was approaching PCE but then i realized what i took to be an actual, non-tension 'background' was actually just a subtler level of tension. your point about insight and energetic make-up being two different things really makes sense here because when i got to that 'next level' of tension i didn't even know it was tension, and now it seems i have slowed back down and am beginning to understand this subtler layer.

ty for advice

Check if the following helps:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ClYhoWsKHko

Im prone to the forehead tension thing as well Adam. Sometimes it can be dealt with by just not letting it take hold. Raise your eyebrows, then frown - do this when you feel it creeping in.

Sometimes that doesn't help though. On retreat toward the 9th day I was getting a massive headache as the days wore on inside the head. It didn't seem related, but may have been. The teacher recommended not scanning the head, and only scanning downward and not sitting without moving. It kind of worked, but it was a nasty tension...

Jill your advice above re tension is excellent. You really should gather all this stuff in one place! Thanks so much.

I'll post a bit about anapana, retreat progress etc later. Im taking it easy for a few days

Hello Nikolai,

I'm very interested in this! Could you tell me more about this? How do I practice this? How do I know I'm doing it right?

Greets

Hi Jorrit,

What technique/approach are you generally applying at the moment? Let's start from there. 

Nick

Hello Nikolai,

I'm practicing Anapanasati from the method of Ajahn Brahm (this is not locating the breath at the nose or the abdomen, but focus on the experience of the breath). I've tried to change my attention, reading the piece about unfabricated awareness.

I an now aware of the breath differently than before. Before I used to grab the breath with my attention, now I try to be aware without grabbing. Leading to watching the breath without reacting/interacting to/with it. I watch the breath without expectations, and before I grabbed the breath, so wanting something/clinging to the breath. I watch without attachment now. What happened is that I am now far more equanimus than before, but there is less joy now. I'm not grabbing the breath with my attention, but I'm watching the breath through letting go of more and more of everything else, making the breath more and more prominent.

Am I on the right track?

Is calm getting established? If so, then yes, keep doing what you descirbed. The more calm, the more the conditions set up for jhanas to take shape. If no, then play around with another sense until it clicks

For example, play around with the fact that no focus is really needed to 'know' that hearing is taking place, or seeing is taking place. Simply contemplate this and then compare it or juxtapose it to 'trying' to hear and 'trying' to see something in the visual field. notice which option sucks, and simpluy recognise the option that doesnt suck. Rinse and repeat for any sense door till it becomes second nature to drop 'trying'.

Nick

You can do concentration on the breath or do insite with the breath. If you are being aware of each and every sensation that makes up the breath with investigation of every breath as it's own unique thing it tends to bring you to the insite Nanas. If you experience breath as in/out without any investigation it turns it a bit like a mantra and this leads you to concentration Jhanas.
Just wanted you to be aware of the distinction as the results tend to be different.
Good luck,
~D

Could you give me instructions of how to practice them both?
I'm practicing focussing on the experience of the breath, and it's gonna lead me to Jhanas. Ajahn Brahm is a Jhana-kind of teacher and he claims the Jhanas can be used for insight really well. In fact, he says without the Jhanas it impossible to attain enlightenment in this lifetime, because mindfulness is far not strong enough. So I'm aiming for the Jhana-route, via the Jhanas going to insight...

What do you mean by: 'If no, play around with another sense until it clicks' ?

May I recommend the book MCTB written by the author of this web site? --> Mastering the Core Teachings of the Buddha, an Unusually Hardcore Dharma Book, by Daniel Ingram
The book covers the all the basics of practice and may expand your understanding of practice and the goal of practice. Many people have different opinions of what will lead to awakening and what awakening entails. Jhana teachers tend to believe that is the path to their awakening experiences while Vipasanna teachers believe insite will lead you to their awakening experiences. Learning about both can be useful as well as learning about the goals and what path resonates with you at what time. MCTB has a lot of vocabulary that is useful to understand what people here are talking about.
You say - What does this mean on a moment to moment basis? What are you doing and experiencing? where? What makes this up?

Insite/vipasanna - being aware of each and every sensation that makes up the breath with investigation of every breath as it's own unique thing tends to bring you to the insite Nanas.
Concentration - If you experience breath as in/out without any investigation it turns it a bit like a mantra and this leads you to concentration Jhanas.
Please be more detailed on what you are unclear of.
Good luck,
~D

'What does this mean on a moment to moment basis? What are you doing and experiencing? where? What makes this up?'

I focus on how I know that I'm breathing. Ask yourself this: How do I know that I'm breathing? Focus on that ! The experience that tells you that you're breathing, there you focus on (Ajahn Brahm). This is a combination between abdomen, chest, nose (in my experience). Maybe you can try this and tell me if this is samadhi or vipassana? I'm not sure, I think a combination of both. Ajahn Brahm says it doesn't really matter, samadhi leads to vipassana and vice versa. 

@ Nikolai: I'm trying the unfabricated approach, but I think I might be overdoing it. Namely, I get a feeling behind my eyes, the opposite of when I concentrate really hard on the breath (grab it really hard), but now it's the opposite feeling. Gives me the feeling I'm trying to hard not to grab the breath! Is it normal that it feels like an effort not grabbing the breath at the beginning (because I'm training my mind in paying attention to sense objects in a big different way than I used to all of my life?), or is it because I'm overdoing it. Maybe my attention needs to be in the middle; so not grabbing my breath intently but also make no effort to make sure my attention doesn't grab the breath by all means; like just watching it without grabbing it, but if my attentions grabs it, than this is fine. Or do I have to prevent that my attention grabs the breath (so there is never any clinging/attachment to the breath)?

I'm asking for a phenomenological break down describing what you experience moment to moment with no vagueness.
Vipassana style exploring-
Do you experience the air moving past your nostril? Is the inbreath any different from the outbreath? How?
Do you experience air moving past your throat? Where does the air sensation end?
Do you experience your chest moving? How does it feel? any differences between inbreath and outbreath? Does your chest area have any additional sensations?
Do you experience your abdomen moving? How does it feel? any differences between inbreath and outbreath? Does your abdomen area have any additional sensations?
How does the beginning of the breath feel? The middle part of the breath? The end of the breath? The transition from in to out and out to in?
Are some breaths longer than others? Is the inbreath the same length as the outbreath each time?
How does the rest of the body feel as you focus on breath sensations...any other sensations synched up to the breath? can you feel the breath moving the rest of your body?
Does any pleasant sensations arise while you focus on the sensations of breath?

Concentration style breath awareness
In....out......in.....out.....in.....out (repeat until pleasant feeling arises)

You can move back and forth from concentration to active exploring the sensation that make up the breath and get both concentration and insite going.

"samadhi leads to vipassana and vice versa" - true, this can be the case, but I tend to get a bit over geeky with things here...If you don't wanna geek out please feel free to tell me (ever so nicely) to shut my yap. (grin)
Good luck,
~D