I've just reached what "feels" like 1st jhana yesterday and second jhana today for the first time, thanks to MTCB. But there are some things that puzzle me and give me slight doubt.

Firstly, I don't see any "lights" physical or mental when "sucked" into either jhanas. Instead, I feel strong, "blissful" sensations arise during the state change. Is this rapture? Secondly, I don't feel in a constant state of intense bliss and joy described in most texts. When I first enter, maybe, but not that strong and doesn't last long. Thirdly, my mind still wanders! Not much. But I've caught it doing it a few times in both jhanas while I am maintaining the absorbtion. Is that possible? I thought I would totally be concentrated and focused.

Second jhana feels no different from the first except 1) seems to take less energy to maintain, and 2) it seems to operate at a higher and lighter "frequency" of mind. Is that what it is supposed to be?

Also, it took me five days to get 1st jhana since I started trying. Does it really only take one day to get to second? How long for the others (assuming I really even reached the first)?

Hi Charles,

It's not unusual to be a bit puzzled by these experiences the first few times one experiences them. With all of the sometimes conflicting (and sometimes misleading) information written about these states and their true significance, it's no wonder anyone ever figures out what's true and what is not quite so true about them. If people were taught the correct way to begin discerning these states in the first place, there would be less confusion about them; which is why it is usually best to train with an experienced meditation guide or teacher. Unfortunately even today, many so-called "teachers" often don't know what they are talking about (I'm speaking about those who haven't fully matured in their personal practice, yet often feel called to go out and "teach" nevertheless).

One of the biggest confusions I had to overcome was in defining "jhana" as having to always be taken or defined in the way they are described in the discourses. The typical four stages of first, second, third, and fourth jhanas. What I have eventually learned after more than a decade of experiencing jhana/samadhi and internally questioning and forever striving to sharpen my discernment of these states in order to get to the bottom of what Gotama may have been speaking about in the discourses, was finally answered for me in going back to look at the derivation of the word "jhana" and beginning there to try and make some sense of the word and its "intended" use in the suttas in relation to my direct experience of the path and what occurs.

The word jhāna is based on the Sanskrit word dhyana that contains the root dhi meaning to “reflect, conceive and ponder over”. Surprisingly, this definition appears closer to the English word “meditation” than the traditional idea of "absorption". In another definition, we find it describe as the following: "The Sanskrit word dhyana, derived from the verbal root dhyai ("to contemplate, meditate, think"), is the most common designation both for the meditative state of consciousness and the yogic techniques by which it is induced."

Therefore, when we read in the suttas Gotama saying "Go do jhana" what he is realistically saying is: "Go contemplate, meditate, think, reflect, and ponder over" the Dhamma. As opposed to what many have written, perceiving him to be saying/implying "go do jhana" meaning "the first, second, third, and fourth levels that I have described so often in my discourses." While it can mean this latter, depending on the particular sutta one is studying and its contextual setting, it most often means the former, because it is only through contemplation on and realization of the Dhamma that awakening occurs.


Seeing "lights" is not necessarily always a sign or signal of mental concentration/reflection, although it can be. Seeing lights only means something if your mind "responds" to them in an certain way (i.e. is calmed and becomes fixed on them in the process of becoming established on them). But it is certainly not necessary to "see lights" or anything else in order to enter samadhi. And by samadhi, I mean, "to firmly establish the mind" on its object.


It might very well have been. It's difficult to say just based on a forum post. However, if you are able to enter this state of mind more than one time experiencing these same "blissful" sensations arising in the same way you describe here, it is likely you are experiencing piti and sukha or initial elation/rapture and its less ebullient cousin pleasure/happiness (sukha).

Don't become discouraged if it takes some time to be able to correctly distinguish these two subtle faculties. They can be difficult to pin down in the beginning of one's practice. Just be glad you have so quickly experienced them, and utilize this achievement to help calm and focus the mind in the fourth level of the stock description of "jhana." (I'm using quotation marks around "jhana" here to distinguish the stock description and connotation of the word to differentiate it from what is the more usually intended meaning of the word in the sense of "to reflect, to contemplate, to ponder over.") The fourth "jhana" is a less mentally disturbing state of mind (no piti or sukha), more conductive to contemplation and reflection, which is where you want to get in order to perform insight meditation.


What you have just described is a classic description of the experience. Yes, it is possible to still have a wandering mind. But as you mentioned, you "caught it" doing that! This is a critical ability that will gradually develop and mature until you reach a point wherein it won't wander when you command it not to. With more and more practice, you should begin experiencing the classic samadhi definition of the mind "becoming firmly established" on whatever object it has taken. This is the apex (sensing the establishment of the mind on its object of observation) that you should be aiming at with your meditation practice in the beginning. Once you reach it, you can begin focusing on achieving awakening.


Yes, that's a fairly common experiential description of the stock description given in the discourses. The second level of the stock description of "jhana" is typically characterized by its "effortless" sustainability. Your second observation is a subjective impression (susceptible to changing — or remaining the same — as you gain more experience with these states). In other words, I wouldn't describe it in that way, although I can understand how you might at this stage of your practice.


This is not unheard of. And can differ from person to person, depending on how much "taming" of the mind needs to occur in order to experience these changes. But it is certainly possible to experience the first and second jhana levels of the stock description of "jhana" (samadhi) in one's first attempted session. So, yes, it can and does happen.

It sounds as though you are making very good progress in your meditation practice. Hopefully, this helps to clarify these issues for you.

In peace,
Ian

Hi Charles B - wise words from Ian ! The meaning of the term 'jhana' (like a lot dhamma terms) is often not very well translated it seems. I like to think of it in the terms of the quietening down of the 5 hindrances - I have found that to be quite useful and prevents confusion.

I have little to add to what Ian has said already, but as someone who has recently got into jhana, my experience is quite similar. My teacher (thankfully) is excellent and has worked through the jhanas. The key thing to remember is that jhana states can be quite subtle and experiences vary from person to person. You do not have to have a nimitta (lights / other visions etc) - I don't. Also, the first time I got into a jhana state is was more like second than first and when I learned how to get past access concentration routinely, I went into first.

Now I think I float between second and first, first has a more energetic quality, often I use metta to get into it. In my experience, I do get joy/happiness/contentment, but for me the word 'rapture' doesn't feel like the right term. A common experience seems to be (at least for me and some other practitioners I know) is jhana states coming and going when you sit (a bit like a dimmer switch being turned up and down) especially when you first start getting into them, as it requires putting a fair bit of energy in to get it going and sustain it.

When in jhana, you can still get thoughts or random 'noise' appear, but you tend to see it for what it is and don't get very wrapped up in it, as the hindrances are very weak/absent.

Hope it helps to have another newbie share their experiences !

Good luck with the rest of your practice !

Jim

A caution about the bold text. It seems to convey that jhanas are intellectual, thinking, pondering, reflecting states:

Ian AndThere is no way to know what Buddha most often means unless there is a quoted citation, and the jhanas allow for a first jhana which is applying a thought (vitakka). This is different from thinking and is described in Dhammasaògaói Aþþhakathá (a later commentary on the canonical Dhammasangani) as "Just as someone ascends the king's palace in dependence on a relative of friend dear to the king, so the mind ascends the object in dependence on applied thought" - in other words, the commentary expresses that vitaka is the mind simply going out to greet/apply itself to a thought which has been attracted to it; the mind greets the visiting thought in first jhana. Vicara sustains the contact/the greeting, not perseverating on it.

First jhana is then other than the ordinary saṅkhāra-khandha of intellectual thinking, reflecting, and pondering; those capacities are not trivial (and not any more cling-worthy than jhana) - they are complicated volitions, versus just the volitional application to and sustenance of a thought, like pausing time in the middle of greeting a visitor (staying at the contact between the hands, the shared eye contact, etc), versus the intellectual conversations which may happen after the greeting.

In concentration (jhanas), if one accepts Majjhima Nikaya 1. 181, then here can be trust that second jhana occurs without applied or sustained thought.



This thread regards concentration. What is the "stock description jhana"? While Sanskrit etymology dhyana may cause confusion when considering the linguistic descendent Pali, jhana, Gotama used sanskrit words and concepts to work with the predominate religious system, e.g., "karma" (action versus intention, page 51 Gombrich, How Buddhism Began).

Henepola Gunaratana clarifies Buddhagosa and jhana/dhyana, especially in the third paragraph below (italics and green emphasis added):
[indent][indent]
The great Buddhist commentator Buddhaghosa traces the Pali word "jhana" (Skt. dhyana) to two verbal forms. One, the etymologically correct derivation, is the verb jhayati, meaning to think or meditate; the other is a more playful derivation, intended to illuminate its function rather than its verbal source, from the verb jhapeti meaning to burn up. He explains: "It burns up opposing states, thus it is jhana" (Vin.A. i, 116), the purport being that jhana "burns up" or destroys the mental defilements preventing the developing the development of serenity and insight.

In the same passage Buddhaghosa says that jhana has the characteristic mark of contemplation (upanijjhana). Contemplation, he states, is twofold: the contemplation of the object and the contemplation of the characteristics of phenomena. The former is exercised by the eight attainments of serenity together with their access, since these contemplate the object used as the basis for developing concentration; for this reason these attainments are given the name "jhana" in the mainstream of Pali meditative exposition. However, Buddhaghosa also allows that the term "jhana" can be extended loosely to insight (vipassana), the paths and the fruits on the ground that these perform the work of contemplating the characteristics of things the three marks of impermanence, suffering and non-self in the case of insight, Nibbana in the case of the paths and fruits.

In brief the twofold meaning of jhana as "contemplation" and "burning up" can be brought into connection with the meditative process as follows. By fixing his mind on the object the meditator reduces and eliminates the lower mental qualities such as the five hindrances and promotes the growth of the higher qualities such as the jhana factors*, which lead the mind to complete absorption in the object. Then by contemplating the characteristics of phenomena with insight, the meditator eventually reaches the supramundane jhana of the four paths, and with this jhana he burns up the defilements and attains the liberating experience of the fruits.
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However, despite any confusion in the post-canonical works (such as the Vimuttimagga, the Visuddhimagga, and commentaries)Saccavibhanga Sutta: Discourse on The Analysis of the Truths (MN 141) is translated clearly as "allaying applied and sustained thought" (Piyadassi Thera's translation) and "the stilling of directed thoughts & evaluations, he enters & remains in the second jhana: rapture & pleasure born of composure, unification of awareness free from directed thought & evaluation" (Thanissaro Bhikkhu's translation).


*The five jhana factors are explained well in this Access To Insight link, referenced in a manner in which the student can see the ideas coming from post-canonical writings (Vimuttimagga, the Visuddhimagga, commentaries) and those coming from the Sutta Pitaka.

I definitely can enter jhana now that I am getting used to it. My latest attempt at work this morning took me 8 minutes vs the 50min my first time two days ago.



One of my "tasks" once I enter jhana is to try to practice concentration within it (which is odd to me), before moving to the next. So even when I reach jhana, I still have to practice concentration!



I got to third jhana yesterday, which was even more pleasant and more concentraiton, but I was hesitant to attempt fourth since, according to MTCB, this is where psychic powers can arise which I find both fascinating and fearful. But if this is the goal that best helps vipassana, then that is where I will focus my practice. Mind reading would be nice, though. And maybe flying... at least its nice in dreams. What does it take to gain access/avoid this tricky area?

Another thing that is odd, I sometimes find myself falling into jhana while doing vipassana. The first time I was concentrating strongly on awareness, I suddenly felt things started to "close up" or solidify and immediately fell into jhana. The second time, I was attempting vipassana while falling asleep. Though my mind's foreground was falling asleep, the mind's background was concentrated and the sensations of becoming "absorbed" into jhana almost overcame me. This was scary since I did not mean for either to happen. From this, it seems possible that even if the mind's foreground is in thought, if enough of the mind is concentrated, the first jhana state will appear. This is totally weird to me. Is it normal to fall into Jhana unintentionally when doing vipassana?

It's weird, I used to think jhana (the stock description) was a state of concentration. It is actually just a state of mind that requires concentration for its arising and sustenance. Two different things. I think samadhi fits more with the first definition.

So what is my takeaway from the jhanas? I thought they were a sign of achievement of concentration. But my mindfulness has barely improved (maybe not at all). Just my ability to discern more when I focus. What is it that I should be striving for with the jhanas? They are just a tool afterall. What should I be using them for, or to do, to master?

Also, I've heard that after attaining the jhanas, it is possible for one to see his or her past lives. How to achieve this? Is this a psychic power? This is something I would actually really like to do, just to "prove" to myself the existence multiple lives and karma beyond science (which is the golden standard for me). I heard Pa Auk uses this to ingrain impermanence upon his students.

And to add about the meaning of the the word "jhana", I know that "Chan", from the Chan school of Chinese Buddhism is the chinese transliteration of the word "dhyana", minus the second consanant. Just like Mei Guo (USA country) takes MER from "aMERica". And the meaning of the word dhyana the Chinese borrowed meant to contemplate/meditate, not a state of anything.

One more thing, I stated that I've been only practicing 5 days jhana. That's technically true, but I've been heavily doing vipassana for the last month. I went on 10-day retreat and have been doing sittings each day afterwards. I felt I reached my limit in vipassana, so switch to concentration to improve my "bottleneck". By no means did I just pick up meditation and got jhana in a few days. Still, the accomplishment feels very nice indeed.

Again, thanks for the encouragement. It is definitely a joy to reach these states we hear about, and fascinating to learn manyaspects are not what we assumed.

I just want to say, I got to fourth jhana yesterday afternoon and spent 30 minutes in it. I turned around and did vipassana in my later sitting last night and what a tremendous difference! My awareness has never been so penetrating and so deep. I started creeping up one of the three characteristics, namely no-self.

Wow. No wonder the Buddha highly recommended these states. The sensations are getting finer and finer.

From your post below, it seems you are figuring this out for yourself. Don't worry about developing supernomal powers. Gotama never promoted their development over awakening, anyway. Just keep focusing on seeing the truth about what he taught.


Almost anything is possible when dealing with a pliant mind. Just maintain equanimity throughout, no matter what happens and you should be fine.


Once again, your comment below seems to have found the answer to these questions. As you gain more experience with this, watch how your impressions may change. Don't be anxious about learning these things. It takes time and dedicated effort to the practice.


I've never felt inclined to pursue this. Once awakening occurred, all interest in things metaphysical vanished! Everything else was superfluous. You'll understand this better once you experience it.

There's a saying that I'm sure you've heard before: Those who know don't say (because incommunicable); and those who say don't know (because they're unaware of how incommunicable it is!).


Yes, indeed. Many assumptions will go by the wayside during this journey. You have many more revelations like this yet to happen in front of you. Practice well and be well.


Now you are beginning to experience the power of these states. With more and more practice in them, you should begin to eventually notice an increase in the stability of your daily mindfulness. Longer and longer periods in which you are able to remain mindful outside of meditative states. An increase in your passaddhi (meaning "calm," or as I like to describe it "a profound inner peace").

Ahh, the benefits of practicing samadhi/jhana! It leads to some incredible contemplations and realizations that you just have to experience to appreciate! Enough said. . . Be at peace.

Hi Charles,



Is there anything you are doing differently that could be enabling you to enter quicker, or do you thinks it's a matter of the process itself just becoming more efficient/stream-lined through repitition and acclimation?

Thanks,

Eric

Definitely, this is an automatic process. My mind just knows what to do now that it has experienced what it it takes to enter jhana. I would even say it knows what to do faster subconsciously than consciously, since I can fall into jhana more quickly while lying down trying to sleep or waking up vs when I am doing it during sitting session right after waking up!

I am starting to believe that I am pre-disposed to easily moving into and up jhana stages because it is so effortless for me now. However, "merging into" or stabilizing into the jhanas after the transition is another story. Unlike the textbook descriptions, it still takes effort for me to stabilize and achieve anything similar to the characteristics described by the Buddha and current meditation masters. For example, I can move into 4th jhana in a matter of minutes, which is great, but, my mind still wanders and without effort, it remains very course, nothing like the "you are completely unaware of your own body" description. In fact it is so course sometimes, when my mind wanders, I forget I am in jhana or can't even tell! It is only when I practice concentration within the state itself, that the state starts to resemble that description. And this is a feat in and of itself.

And like I mentioned above, when I attempt concentration, even just for vipassana, it takes effort to stay out of jhana. It's like my mind immediately starts heading off there until I yank it back. And I have to do it multiple times before it gets the idea and stays out. Never had this issue before, but its getting better.

How odd, for me jhana can almost be effortless, it is the concentration in jhana that is difficult and what I am trying to improve. And I get the feeling it may not be like this for most people. At least I have yet to read anywhere that says, "At first jhana won't feel exactly like the descriptions, until you practice more, then you won't feel your body and lose all ability to create thoughts." I don't know if anyone can confirm or deny this.

I was really getting into these questions too. Here are the two best books I came across on the topic, 'The Attention Revolution' by Alan Wallace, and 'Mindfulness, Bliss and Beyond' by the talented but dogmatic teacher Ajahn Brahm, this book gets an intro by Kornflied, were he says its really good but close minded, but boy did i learn a lot about jhanas from it. First of all the concept soft jhana doesn't really exist in this school, and that would be described as jhanic factors being present in samadhi. There's by two bob. Neem

Ah... soft jhana. That is exactly what it is. I guess I am not alone in this and it's more common than I think. The advantages of forums and communication with fellow practitioners and not just adhering strictly to texts and masters...

When it comes to the stability and depth as you describe it above, that's where I am as well. Sometimes it's deeper; sometimes it's more stable--that's the way the territory is at the lighter end of the jhana spectrum (lighter jhanas at one end harder at the other). I guess it's just a matter of time and repetition.

Sorry missed a few points and filled out the details

I was really getting into these questions too. Here are the two best books I came across on the topic, 'The Attention Revolution' by Alan Wallace, and 'Mindfulness, Bliss and Beyond' by the talented but dogmatic teacher Ajahn Brahm, this book gets an intro by Kornflied, were he says its really good but close minded, but boy did I learn a lot about jhanas from it. First of all the concept soft jhana doesn't really exist in Ajahn Brahms school (the Thai Tradition), and what is being talked about here and called a soft Jhana by Ingram, that would merely be described as jhanic factors being present in samadhi, a state before actually attaining Jhana. There's by two bob. Neem
So the 2 points are:

In many of the situation where people think they have attained jhana, these are merely jhanic factor that are present within the start of samadhi, rather than the existence of a soft jhana.

There are situations were people attain jhanic factor that are present within the start of samadhi but there is also this concept of a soft jhana as well as a hard jhana. And people can have difficulty distinguishing between jhanic factor present within the start of samadhi and a soft jhana.

So why does this matter, because what the Thai Tradition calls a Jhana is fucking awesome, (Sitting for 4hrs, but really they talk about 8hr and loungers sits and a 4hr sit is just scrapping by and may or may not have been jhana. Next lag affects factors of piti & sukha should last for days afterward, though 8hrs may be an acceptable minimum. You should be feeling so good that there is very little though distraction during that period) and those experience that I used to think of as jhana were pretty moderate, but that not to say that there isn't room for the blur between the two ideas.

I'll get out my notes from Ajahn Chahs & Ajahn Brahms books.

Ajahn Brahm: 7 stages to Jhana

Stage1: Present moment awareness: be here now, listen, look, feel body awareness.

Stage2: Silent present Moment awareness: Bring the mind to the now, free from the past, future & elsewhere. Sense the space & silence of mind.

Stage3: Silent Present-Moment awareness of the breath: Spacious silent Awareness in the now relaxing the body starts to follow the breath. Breathing in the now calmly…Breathing out the now calmly, allow the natural breathing.

Stage4: Full Sustained attention on the breath: attentive moment to moment awareness of the in & out breath.
This is reached by letting go, relaxing into the attentive moment, not through forceful attentiveness
You do not do reach this stage the mind does. this is where the doer, the major part of one's ego, starts to disappear & unity and peace start to become present.

Stage5: Full sustained attention on the beautiful breath.
The beautiful breath; when we maintain the unity of consciousness by not interfering the breath will begin to become subtler, smooth and peaceful. Take time to saviour the sweetness of the beautiful breath.
You do not do anything if you try to do something at this stage, you will disturb the whole process, from now on the doer has to disappear.
In the later stages the breath will become very subtle and eventually disappears, all thats left is the beautiful, the mind is now taking the mind as its own object.

Stage6: The Beautiful Nimitta.
When one lets go of the body, thought and the five senses (including awareness of the breath) so completely that only a beautiful mental sign remains.
Some see a white light, some a gold star, some a blue pearl, for others perception chooses to describe this interms of a physical sensation such as intense tranquillity or ecstasy: these are not physical perceptions associated with the body or the eyes.

Qualities of the Nimitta: 1) it appears only after the meditator has been with the beautiful breath for along time 2) it appears when the breath disappears 3) the external 5 senses are completely absent 4) it only manifests in a silent mind 5) strange but powerfully attractive 6) it is a beautiful simple object.
If the nimitta is dull or unstable, flashing and disappearing in both cases one should go back to the previous stage
the weak nimitta is caused by not enough depth of contentment and wanting, let go of the doer and enjoy, let the mind incline where it wants which is usually the centre of the nimitta.
If no namitta arises after the breath disappear and instead peace, space, nothingness or emptiness is left, (this is not jhana) this could be because there isn't enough piti or sukha. Within the calm-space, cultivate the contentment into delight, or delight is generated by letting the energy flow into the knower or strengthen present moment awareness which will increase bliss and then the nimitta will appear. It is possible the nimitta is a feeling nimitta, of strong bliss, but this nimitta is more difficult to gain access to jhana with.

Stage7: Jhana.
Attention gets drawn into the centre of the nimitta or the the light expands to envelope you, let the mind merge into bliss, then let the jhana occur.
The obstacles of exhilaration and fears need to be subdued in favour of complete passivity.

The qualities of a jhana: 1)it usually persists for many hours 2) once inside there is no choice emergence occurs natually when the accumulated fuel of relinquishment is used up.3) impossible to percieve the body, sound, think or perceive time. 4) not a trance but a hightened state of awareness of bliss that doesn't move.

Any way those are my notes about Jhana from Ajahn Brahms book and basically how the Samatha Yanika tradition views Jhana.

Thanks Neem for clarifying a lot of this.

So it seems by many traditions, by my descriptions, I have not really attained jhana, but only samadhi with jhana characteristics. This does explain why the jhanas to me don't fully fit the Buddha's descriptions such as 'no longer being aware of your body' and no longer having thoughts arise at all. I just attribute this to not being very practiced. However, I definitely feel that my mind moves through these levels pretty equivalently with the texts. I am up to the 'sixth jhana' and it definitely feels very spacey compared to the 'lower jhanas'.

So where would the 'real' jhanas fit in all this? Continue practicing samatha and they will arise?

Currently, I am trying to abide in my soft version of the fourth jhana and practice there to 'merge' more fully into it in an attempt to attain its full characteristics. Maybe this is what I should keep trying to get the 'real' jhana to arise.

I will also give those instructions a go and see what results. Maybe pre-absorbtion practice should be the focus rather than within my soft jhana state itself.

Off to experimenting...

Yes, brother, I have attained 6th & 7th Jhana if you look at it from a soft jhana perspective. But from the Thai/Samatha Yanika perspective I haven't even attained first Jhana. Makes me smile at my self thinking of these discrepancies. Metta Neem

Different teachers draw the line at different points. One will call something a "jhana"; another will call the same "not a jhana".



"Real" is about where you draw the dividing line.



This is exactly the strargy and tactic I have been using, and they do get deeper as you keep doing them.



"Off to experimenting..."--that's the spirit; see what works for you in practice. You have a knack for this.

I spent a long time waiting for the nimitta to arise while ignoring everything else. It is my understanding that this difficult to to acheive outside of a retreat environment. Once I started using the arising piti (followed by the spreading piti and the stregthening piti) as an object, I was able to access the light/soft jhanas, and got 1 through 3 rather quickly. Once I was able to access these, I began to develop one-pointedness in a way I could only describe as "experiencing is beleiving" that got me into these 3 deeper and deeper, like a virtuous circle.

I got into the area of number #4 not long after I could get to number 3, but it was never deep and not stable; often I would get to that point and everything would just sort of break up and fall apart. Foucing on the diffuse subtle sensations in the body is what eventually got me deeper; as absorption in these sensations increases, awareness of the boundries of the body fall away leaving a field of subtle physical sensation. Sometimes it seems like some thoughts are occurring, but "I" am not "thinking" them. I don't know that their content is; they're just a mental sensation. In the field of sensation there is aspect/charachteristic of silence, upon which touching on can take it deeper; at times I can touch on this in the 3rd but it is something I could do onl once I had expereinced in the 4th.

I can get into 4 everyday now, not always as deep as I described in the last few sentences. Most days I can get into 5, but usually fall out of it rather quickly. I've gotten above that, but not often and it's rather murky.

I hope my babbling has been of some use.

Eric

No such thing. Your problem is (I had to overcome the same thing, so it's not an isolated impression) that you think that "jhana" is somehow different than samadhi. Poppycock!!!

Gotama's explanation of the first four levels of his meditation method (which many have reified as being called/described as "jhana"— which they say is somehow different than samadhi — and which I have recently been describing as "the stock description given in the discourses") was just a description of what he had experienced as a child sitting under the rose-apple tree (see Majjhima Nikaya 36 Mahasaccaka Sutta). Only he was saying that, rather than experience this same state having arisen spontaneously on its own seemingly from out of the blue without knowing how it arose, you can bring it on consciously (at will) by following the breath and focusing on the pleasantness of the experience of breath meditation.

In this sense, then, "jhana" (as in the stock descriptions given in the discourses) may be viewed as a sub-set of samadhi. But it is all samadhi (concentration states).


From my reading of the translated discourses, I have NEVER come across such a statement that was attributed to Gotama. You must be confusing this with something that someone else has "claimed" (falsely) that Gotama said.

While it is true that one can go so deeply into a samatha meditation wherein they seemingly are "no longer aware of the body," this is not a hallmark of something that you need to accomplish in order to say that you have experienced "jhana"/samadhi. Generally, these deeper states occur when one wishes to pursue the so-called "immaterial jhana" levels (5 through 8). And while it can be interesting from a personal perspective to confirm these immaterial levels, they are by no means necessary in the effort to achieve awakening.

As for "no longer having thoughts arise" it is possible to be in a samadhi / "jhanic" state wherein thoughts do not arise, yes. It is also possible to command the mind to "STOP" with its incessant round of mental chatter and have the mind obey that command outside of any meditative state. Once again, with the increase in mindfulness (sati) ability this becomes possible.

What the so-called "jhana" state can assist one in accomplishing is to help re-condition the mind to be more able to respond more fully and faithfully to the commands given by the conscious mind. In other words, "jhana" meditation helps to promote greater and greater abilities of mindfulness and mental control.


You ARE experiencing the REAL THING! Don't be fooled by someone who has a skewed view or opinion about this. What you experienced WAS/IS REAL samadhi/"jhana".


Let me address these so-called "jhana factors" as expressed by Ajahn Brahm one by one.

1. What persists is not jhana, but passaddhi, which means "calm," and which I have characterized as a "profound inner peace." The mind is not consumed by inner turmoil or activity, but experiencing a profound peacefulness. In my humble opinion, Aj. Brahm is being a bit exuberant in his pronunciation and description here by equating this with "jhana", and is not perceiving it "as it actually is." Passaddhi is the state of calmness that arises after (proceeding) meditation practice. It is also a requisite for the establishment of mindfulness.

2. A factor of "no choice" implies that one loses one's conscious intention while in "jhana." While this can happen in people who have surrendered sati (mindfulness) to the exclusion of their ecstatic experience, it is generally not a characteristic that Gotama advised was beneficial. People who do this on a regular basis are euphemistically described as "jhana bunnies," or people who are intoxicated by this "jhanic" ecstatic experience. Gotama encouraged his students to develop their sati in order to preclude such wild goose chases.

3. "Impossible to perceive the body, sound, to think or perceive time." This sounds like sannavedayita-nirodha or "the cessation of perception and feeling." This would be the so-called "ninth jhana." While I have experienced this, it is not necessarily conducive to awakening (meaning that you don't have to experience it in order to achieve awakening). However it does confirm for one an ability of mind that one may have hitherto been unaware of. It becomes only one more "meditative experience" of which you have to eventually let go in order to arrive at an awakening. And awakening doesn't just occur out of the blue; it is a gradual process wherein one realizes the truth about the three characteristics, the five aggregates, the four noble truths, dependant co-arising — in essence, the Dhamma that Gotama taught! It is a conscious knowingness of these truths, which has the effect of de-programming the mind (de-conditioning it, if you will). In order to remain awakened, one needs to cultivate mindfulness of these truths on a consistent basis.

4. Not a trance, but a heightened state of awareness of bliss? If sati is absent, then it is definitely a trance or trance-like state. There are no two ways about it. Trance states are not healthy for someone attempting to achieve awakening to the Buddhadhamma. Trance states are indicative of "jhana bunnies." How do I know? Because I fell victim to this falsehood myself, until someone showed me the way out! That way out involves the development of sati-sampajanna (present moment awareness and clear discernment). Sampajanna means "clear comprehension" or "clear knowing."

Just some thoughts to take into consideration even though you may not have a full appreciation of them yet. Observe your own experience carefully and as precisely as possible, and until you become more experienced and convinced of the accuracy of your opinions, question each experience you think you have accomplished until you prove to yourself that you have indeed accomplished it.

Excellent post, Eric. The points you made here are ones I was implying in my post.

I just spent my last two 1.5hr sittings attempting Nyeem's post on Ajahn Brahm: 7 stages to Jhana. Thanks for that. Very interesting... I got very very strong piti and samadhi (for me) without going into jhana following these instructions step by step. I would almost say the concentration rivals and even exceeds the level I get inside my previous soft jhanas. Though it was not enough to experience nimita, I decided to "call upon" and merge into the first jhana anyways just to see if this made a difference. Absolutely. Although still soft by Ajahn Brahm's standards, first jhana was full of energy and I have never been that absorbed and concentrated. Moving up through the jhanas was harder and slower, but their absorbtion was deeper by far.

It seems that the depth of the jhana is based upon how much piti or "energy" is generated before I enter. If I understand right, the pre-jhana samatha process suppresses our craving, aversions, and thoughts. The amount of suppression beforehand may be the factor to the strength of the preceding jhanas and arising of nimita... maybe, I don't know. I get the feeling, if I don't will my soft jhanas to come and keep following Ajahn Brahm's steps, eventually, the nimita will arise along with the real "authentic" jhana. Who knows how long that'll take.




On the other hand, I will also give this a shot, to focus on the diffusing of the subtle sensations. I was never really focused (goal-wise) and knew what to do to strengthen my soft jhana. This could help. Though it is ideal to practice entering jhana "correctly" or fully from beginning to end. I would prefer to strengthen what I have already achieved or developed, the soft jhanas.

Thanks, Eric.

One slight point: It's not finding subtle sensation and then diffusing it; it's more a matter of tuning into what's already there and already diffuse.

I want to thank everyone here for their insights, contributions, and kindness. Because of the great concentration practice advice, my vipassana has moved forward by leaps and bounds. I accomplished my goal of removing my concentration bottleneck for now. I think I am in the Dark Night (joyfully), but won't go into it here since this is a concentration thread. At least that's what my throbbing headache is telling me after two sittings.

Again, thanks to everyone, Eric, Ian, Neem and everyone else.