I'll try to keep this short.

I've been experiencing a LOT of pain for a while now, and especially in the last couple weeks.

I think part of it comes from a rather significant transformation that seems to be going on in my mind and energetic systems (from all the meditation.) A lot of energetic growth!

I think part of it comes from a persistent injury that I got about a year ago. I believe I got a case of "overtraining syndrome," and I had all the symptoms: muscle soreness, fatigue, depressed mood. I needed lots and lots of rest.

What seems to be happening is that my back and leg muscles are carrying considerable tension everytime I take the sitting, standing, or walking postures. (if I walk slowly or methodically). Again, I think this tension is two-fold. Part is that as my mind-body relaxes, tensions are revealed that I've been holding for a lifetime. And, part seems to be simply from the structure of my body which seems unable to sustain these postures.

The lying-down posture seems to work well, though I find it difficult to get the same kind of alert sharp attention as sitting.

Sometimes, I try to spend more time in the sitting/walking postures, but I seem to max out at about 6 hours per day of sitting/walking, and then my body becomes incredibly sore. Then, I end up spending 18-20 hours per day in bed just trying to recover.

I'm surprised that I'd still be feeling the effects of "overtraining" a year later, since I don't do any exercise other than sitting and walking (both slow walking, or a walk around town.) The internet resources say that the only cure is just to get some rest. I try to rest, but again, if I start sitting a lot, it hurts again.

I'm getting a little frustrated with all this, since I've taken time off right now from work, etc just so that I can practice the Dhamma. But, I can only do 6-7 hours per day of formal sitting/standing/walking before burning out my body (when on retreat).

Should I just err on the side of doing too much reclining meditation, and basically just stay in bed all day?

Should I take the Burmese approach and just push through it? or the Califronia approach and just "be gentle"? (I'm struggling to find the middle path)

Also, I have a question because I was planning to go study Mahasi technique at Panditarama-Lumbini in Nepal. I notice that most Mahasi centers schedule 12-16 hours per day of formal practice. Unless I can do reclining meditation, that's just out of the question. Is a Mahasi retreat simply out of the question for me? Do I have to stick to Westerner retreats or no retreats?

I really wanted to do a long retreat, but now I don't know how I can make that happen.

Is it possible this is just an energetic thing? Or a "Dark Night" thing?

Is there any chance that I'll ever be able to do more than 6-8 hours per day of formal sitting/walking/standing?

Are the people who do Mahasi retreats some kind of cyborgs? Is it actually humanly possible?

I guess I'm a little confused and spun out about the whole thing.

I'm happy to share more of the details, if that helps. I was just trying to keep this as short as possible. Right now, I'm wondering if I'll have to give up the whole meditation thing.

Well, thanks for listening. I'll post another post here soon sharing some of my meditative experience from my recent retreat too.

Any thoughts would be appreciated.

Hi Daniel. I am not a meditation pro and I don't know much about energy, but I do know what it's like to do a long Mahasi retreat, and after this last year I also know a little something about chronic pain, so I thought I'd share some thoughts with you.

I think it could very well be that your pain is related to your meditation, but reading your account I think you might want to consider that your symptoms might also have some psychosomatic causes. This doesn't mean that it's not real and physically manifesting, it just means that the causes are from mental and emotional factors not purely physical or structural causes.

I started suffering from chronic pain in my hands, wrists, and forearms early last year and did some research on something called TMS, which stands for Tension Myositis Syndrome (although recently some have wanted to change it to Tension Myoneural Syndrome). The main figure in TMS research and treatment is Dr. Sarno, who has been treating chronic pain patients for decades. I once had a friend, a musician, who had mysterious chronic pain such that he couldn't use his hands and arms and had to wear a neck brace. He read a book called The Mindbody Prescription by Dr. Sarno and was spontaneously cured, and this in fact is not uncommon.

Here's a piece that 20/20 did on Dr. Sarno: http://tmswiki.wetpaint.com/page/The+20%2F20+segment+on+John+Sarno+and+TMS.
In the course of making the segment, the 20/20 reporter was cured of severe chronic back pain that he'd had for many years, that he'd originally attributed to structural abnormalities diagnosed by his doctors.

In my own case, my hand/wrist/forearm pain had persisted since early last year. In October I also developed neurological symptoms in both arms and legs. Chronic tension and pain spread over to my neck, shoulders, lats, and upper back. I stopped doing all my usual calisthenics. A little over a month ago I was at the point where I was using speech recogition software on my computer for "typing" and mouse control. I bought a headset for my cell phone because it hurt to hold a phone to my ear. One month of physical therapy did nothing, if anything things got worse. Massage, heat, ice - nothing.

In early January I started taking muscle relaxants my doctor prescribed. Amrix, then cyclobenzaprine (the same medication but generic). I took it for two weeks and it helped. A few weeks ago I was reading TMS "success stories" and came across an RSI pain story by a drummer who had onset similar to mine. He had pain for a over a year, and a much more severe case than mine. He started reading about TMS and within a week he was cured.

The day after I read this I started tentatively using my hands on the computer. Now I type and mouse normally and for hours at a time and don't use the speech recognition at all. I stopped taking cyclobenzaprine for the time being. A couple days ago I shoveled the driveway which was buried under 2.5 feet of snow, something I wouldn't have dared to contemplate a month ago. (Looks like I'll have to do the same today!) I don't consider myself a success story because it's early days and the fact is I still experience pain and chronic tension, don't do upper body exercises yet, and also still have crazy neurological symptoms in both arms and legs. Thus I have a long way to go, but I felt I should say something about my personal case so that it is clear that my interest in this stuff is not purely academic.

TMS or its equivalents can cause chronic pain, fatigue, weakness, or neurological symptoms anywhere in the body, as well as stuff like Chronic Fatigue Syndrome. There are many details in the account you've posted that indicate possible TMS, as they are common characteristics in TMS cases:

- The fact that you find the cause of your pain mysterious
- You attribute it to an injury or trauma from a long time ago that should have healed and resolved itself long before now
- The fact that standard treatment (in this case, rest) is not working
- You are not doing anything strenuous. All you are doing is sitting, walking and standing, things that you do all the time under other circumstances.
- The tension only appears primarily when you do slow Mahasi-style walking and not normal walking.
- The pain is happening during a period when you are under pressure that is largely self-created (intensive practice). You are experiencing frustration because you took time off for this, and you feel anxious that you won't be able to do the Panditarama retreat.

One of the main causes of psychosomatic pain according to TMS theory are personality traits of perfectionism and "goodism". If you find you are pushing yourself very hard all the time and demanding perfect, maximum efforts and results from yourself, this is considered to be a big red
flag. Repressed emotions, fear (such as fearful anticipation of pain), and stress and external and internal pressures are all major factors.

If you want to learn more about TMS I recommend reading the book The Divided Mind: The Epidemic of Mindbody Disorders which talks about this stuff. The TMSWiki website is also good, and has a list of TMS doctors (varied disciplines - internal medicine, neurologists, physiatrists, orthopedic surgeons), some of whom you can call or email for advice. You can also schedule an appointment with them for an examination and possible diagnosis of TMS. They will try and rule out any physical causes first through physical examination and carefully looking over any tests results you have. They can check your body for particular tender, painful areas that appear on the bodies of most people suffering from TMS.

They will then outline a treatment program (you can also learn it from books). In some cases the pain disappears fairly quickly. In many cases though one has to do a program that involves a lot of daily inner reflection, stuff that is in fact pretty compatible with spiritual practice. I have started doing it and find it rewarding and educational. Even if it doesn't end up helping my physical symptoms, I still find it worthwhile.

I haven't had my TMS appointment yet (will be seeing a physiatrist in NYC) so I can't attest to what it's like. I don't even know if I have TMS or not or if my pain is caused by other psychosomatic factors like anxiety, or is structural-, energetic-, insight-based, or some combination of all those. I thought I'd share this info with you, though, because your case struck me as "textbook", except for the fact that you're intensively meditating.

Because of my personal situation and the fact that I've done research it could be that I'm "holding a hammer and seeing everything as a nail", so maybe take what I've said with some grains of salt. And if it doesn't resonate with you just forget about it.

Also, as I've said I do think meditation can cause old physical symptoms to return. It happened during my retreat that I felt tingling in areas of old injuries, and shortly after leaving MBMC I re-experienced physical symptoms from many past injuries and illnesses all at once, some from long ago. I am also convinced that a lot of the pain and tension symptoms I experience now are in part retreat and/or practice-related.

I think it is a very good idea to talk to your doctor, just to rule out any standard physical causes. And I feel the cyclobenzaprine helped me so you might want to give it a try if your doctor thinks it's okay in your situation. Walmart sells it for $4-$10 a month. If you have insurance, you can get Amrix instead which is a non-generic, extended-release formulation of it that my doctor thinks works better.

I wish you a swift resolution to your problem. I very much empathize with the disability, worry, frustration, and doubt that you are experiencing. I know it is hard and very challenging.

Hopefully people on DhO with experience in insight and energy will be able to provide you with more help. Chuck Kasmire just opened an Energy Practices Portal that you might want to check out.

I'll write my thoughts on practice style and Mahasi vs. California long retreat in a separate post.

PS Sorry if this was a word overload. For subjects like this I tend to write too much over too little.

Hi again...

Regarding your current practice situation, I personally think you should make adjustments to reduce the pain and strain. Sitting practice on a comfy sofa or easy chair. Walking practice at normal, casual pace instead of Mahasi slow-motion. No standing practice. Do as much lying-down practice as you want. I don't think any of these adjustments will in any way impede your ability to do insight practice.

I understand though that perhaps you are trying to see if you can handle a Mahasi retreat in Asia. Well, I can offer a few thoughts on that. I did a 3.5 month retreat at MBMC a couple years ago. What I noticed is that there is no way to predict how your body is going to feel or perform during the course of the retreat. For the first few weeks every time I exhaled during sitting breath meditation, my body would spontaneously have violent convulsions. This happened at every sitting. It was so persistent and dramatic that other yogis were breaking silence to talk to me about it. When it got to the point that I was getting pain in my ribs, I got permission from the Sayadaw to switch to the sitting/touching technique (no noting of breathing involved). This helped. Eventually I switched back to noting breath rising/falling at the belly and it was fine, no convulsions.

During the first part of the retreat I had a lot of chronic tensions, particularly on the right side of my body. One day they just bubbled away, pretty much during one particular sit. For many weeks after that I could sit in perfect posture with no effort, as if some outside force were holding me up. When I walked, it felt like I was floating. The tensions did return, though, to my dismay, and also very suddenly.

One yogi who was there told me later that he went through a period where he felt like his legs were on fire and that he had sciatica. It went away.

My friend did a 3-month retreat at Panditarama. He typically has bad back pain during retreats. But this time around, his concentration got high enough so that he found he could use mindfulness to make the pain explode into light. Voila, no more pain.

There's no sure way to know what will happen if you go. You may find that your chronic pain and tension gets bad for days and suddenly evaporates. It might come back...you might get new ones...you might lose old ones. You might have intense pain and yet find you don't care about it. No way to know. Plus, it's not like a Western retreat center where there's a set time frame for the retreat. You can leave whenever you want and come back whenever you want. Easy to take a break.

If you do feel that you just can't structurally handle sitting on the floor, then you can email in advance and ask if you can do reclining practice or sit in a chair. My friend got permission at Panditarama to use a chair.

A few other things about Panditarama: when my friend was there he had two teachers he interviewed with. The main teacher was a German monk, the other was a nun. He liked them both. The other retreatants were all Westerners. Thus, it is not necessarily too different from a Western retreat. (At MBMC there were almost no Westerners and the teacher was a Burmese monk).

The other thing to consider is that Mahasi is not the only game in town. There are many opportunities for long retreat in Asia, you are not limited to the Mahasi system.

For example, one of my favorite organizations is Open Dharma (website: http://opendharma.org/ ). The head teacher Ajay is a friend of Christopher Titmuss', they teach retreats together in India. Ajay is one of the most profoundly enlightened people I have ever met, and he is extremely down-to-earth and easygoing. I sat a 10-day and a 30-day retreat with him and two junior teachers in India. 95% or more of the retreatants were lying down during the group meditations, on rollup mattresses with blankets and pillows. They are intensive, silent retreats but they are not restrictive. They do not prescribe or enforce a technique. You can Mahasi-note sensations every waking moment all day and night if you want, or you can do open awareness, mantra, jhana, whatever. They do not care what your posture is or how long you hold it. The group meditations are not mandatory. Interviews with teachers are totally optional but are available at a set time every day for those who want it.

Besides formal retreat centers there are plenty of monasteries around the world where you can stay for months at a time free of charge where you are left to your own devices and can practice however you like at your own pace.

So there are always options. You don't have to be concerned that you'll never be able to do a long retreat.

Hope this has been helpful in some way.

Thanks David,
Your comments were very helpful. This paragraph from you really landed:



What's funny is that after I wrote this post (and before reading your response), I found an unusual amount of nervousness and stress about my post. I was feeling ashamed for having written it, and I couldn't really explain entirely why. But, this explanation totally fits. "goodism" is all over me. And, ironically, that's one of the reasons I like to meditate is to come out of the constant need for perfection.

It really feels like fear and anxiety held as tension in my body in the legs and back, hips and pelvis. Which I guess you could say is psychosomatic. But, when I sit through this for long periods, it's no longer seems psychosomatic, it seems like I start to do damage to my body which lasts as soreness for a number of days afterward. This is what has me concerned.

Just writing this out and hearing your perspective makes things a little more clear for me.

What seems paradoxically fucked about the whole thing is that I find a lot of the talk in meditation about relaxing and letting go, etc... is just beyond me because this habit pattern of tension in the body is so deeply ingrained. It's not really a concious thing (though slowly but surely it starts to let go over time). And, then there is the perfectionism of trying to relax perfectly. Yikes!

When I wrote the post, I was coming from a place of pain and anxiety. In my more level headed moments, I can see how this really is a matter of continuing the practice and taking care of my self patiently, even if that means I need extra time to heal these old tension patterns.

Anyway, I'll respond to your other post with a separate post as well, to keep on topic.

Thanks,

Daniel

Thanks for your thoughts regarding practice conditions.

The reason I wanted to do a Mahasi retreat was mostly because I've never really learned this technique except by reading about it in books. I've been doing Goenka style vipassana. Perhaps I've misunderstood the two traditions, but it seems Mahasi is more suited for continuous practice, because whatever happens in the field of experience - note it. Where as, Goenka says whatever happens, ignore it and go back to the body sensations. Unless concentration is very strong, it sometime takes a while to get back to body sensations. In fact, sometimes I end up just noting what arises until I can get back to the body sensations. Maybe I'm just misunderstanding, but this is part of why I wanted to get a real Mahasi teacher. I just did the Bodh Gaya retreat with Christopher Titmuss and Radha Nicholson and found it a bit difficult because they were so loose in their instructions and basically said you could do anything as long as it was freeing the mind. So, that's why I wanted to do Mahasi. Also maybe just curiousity. And, also I guess I don't like the closed sectarian feel of Goenka's tradition.

Also, I wanted to do a long retreat, and not something expensive like Spirit Rock. Actually, long retreat takes precedence over technique or tradition. I really just feel called to sit for a long time. 3 months feels about right to me for now, but who knows.

I saw the retreat by Ajay and considered that I might do it. I'm in India, and it starts in about a month, so that might work well for me. I figured it would be more casual about posture.

I'm curious what monasteries you're referring to where you're left to your own devices. I knew a guy who was staying at Suan Mokh in Thailand for a while and was mostly left to his own devices. I'm actually considering that I might want to ordain for a while too, though I don't know much about it. I was considering going to Thailand and just seeing where I might be able to practice there. It's also so cheap to live in this part of the world, that I've considered doing a self retreat somewhere quiet.

I know that this site seems to suggest that a person can make considerable progress doing 10-20 day retreats here or there, but I'm looking at it more like going back for grad school. It's fine with me if I spend the next few years commited to this and really working through it. I've got a lot of bad habits to turn around, and a lot of work to do.

Hey Daniel, I recently read your other threads, "Assessing first 10 years"/"six months" and your report on the 20-day Bodh Gaya retreat, so I see the bigger context now for your post here.

I have a similar story to yours actually. A few years ago I left my old job and life and went abroad with the intention of doing long retreat, traveling, and figuring out where I wanted to live and what I wanted to do. I started in India, then did the MBMC retreat, and after recovering from that, Thailand, then on to other places. I traveled for almost two years and it was the journey of a lifetime. An amazing, fun, and wonderful experience that I'm grateful I was able to do. I'm happy and excited for you that you're now beginning your "odyssey"!



I've done my fair share at chipping away at that rock too. In particular, I've typically had a lot of perfectionistic and goodist tendencies associated with meditation practice and spiritual self-image. My rocky MBMC retreat and the dukkha-fest of the past year have helped me see the high price I've paid for these habits.



Yeah I know it's tricky business. I think definitely take care of yourself if you feel like you are doing something that your body can't handle. Whether the pain is due to psychosomatic causes, insight stages, or physical problems, it can be a good idea to not greatly exacerbate it.

I'm just curious - did this happen to you when you were doing your Goenka retreats? I personally find a Goenka retreat more physically strenuous than Mahasi ones.

I will just say though that pain that is induced psychosomatically can be severe and long lasting, so just because you're sore for days doesn't mean that you've damaged yourself. And when fear gets involved, it's a whole new level. Stuff like 1) Fear that the pain won't go away; 2) Fear that the pain indicates a serious injury or problem; 3) Fear that your future plans and objectives are in jeopardy as a result of the pain ... these fears can easily create pain, magnify existing pain, and persist pain that would have otherwise gone away fairly easily if one had ignored it. I've seen this firsthand in my own body.

Fear and anxiety -> tension -> pain -> fear and anxiety that there's damage -> more tension -> more pain -> more fear and anxiety -> [vicious cycle]

What's interesting is that if this loop happens to get broken, the pain can actually just disappear in a short amount of time without any traces that it was ever there. This has happened to me before. I know of and have read of a lot of cases where this happened to others as well.

And just as MCTB mentions scripting with regards to insight stuff, it pays to be on the lookout for scripting with regards to pain. It can happen.

Of course, you still have to allow for the possibility of an actual physical problem. Maybe talk to an orthopedist if you have concerns.
Next time you do sitting meditation maybe give your cushioning a few extra inches of height, or switch to Japanese seiza style if you normally sit crossed-legs. I usually alternate between crossed legs and virasana (with cushion, not flat on the floor).

Just some thoughts.



I hear ya! I know that dance.
One thing that I find helpful is to "be on the lookout" for perfectionism on the feeling, non-verbal level and not just the thought level. Unfriendliness, pushing, forcing, fixation on flaws, lack of tolerance for mistakes, impatience, not allowing rest or breaks, lack of encouragement for successes...a lot of that stuff can happen in subtle and non-verbal ways, but can be noticed on the level of body tensions and pressures which can provide early warning that forcing is happening, even when the thoughts that are present seem innocuous, reasonable, and benevolent.

Also I think you'll find that all the fun and meaningful shared experiences you'll be having with fellow travelers will help the body relax and heal. And the friendships will help open the heart, which can encourage letting go when back in retreat.

Man, I'm telling you, I think you are in for a great ride!

You can also do their 10-day retreat first to get a sense of what the teaching and retreat style is like.
Ajay as I mentioned already, is amazing and in a class by himself.
Jaya is one of the most attentive and kind teachers I've ever sat with. She was authorized to teach by Christopher Titmuss, and also spent years with Poonjaji, so she is familiar with both Theravadan and non-dual paths.



I've stayed in Ajahn Chah monasteries in England and Thailand, and none of them require guests to practice in a particular way, nor do they strictly regiment your schedule. Aside from a bit of daily chores and a puja or two, you are pretty much free to do with yourself what you will. It's not that they don't have techniques, they just don't restrict you to them. There are no regular required interviews either, but you can often schedule an interview with the Ajahn or talk informally with senior monks if you want to discuss practice. See http://forestsangha.org/ for list of all Western Ajahn Chah monasteries.

I'm pretty sure the other Thai Forest lineages are the same way. Wat Metta in California is a great option. I've never been there but a friend of mine has and he loves it. The head monk Thanissaro Bhikkhu (aka Tan Geoff) is a scholar and meditation master. I've sat with him and had discussions with him when he's come to New York and I really like him.

I'm sure others know of many more options.

In Thailand I've only stayed in two wats (monasteries):

- Wat Pah Nanachat is an Ajahn Chah monastery for English-speaking monks. They have a website you can check out.

- Wat Tham Wua is a beautiful monastery in the mountains north of Chiang Mai. It has meditation caves, a lake, a stream, big fields, and comfy kutis (cabins) with porches and attached shower. The abbot is an adorable, metta-filled monk who was a student of Ajahn Chah's. It's 70km from Pai, the reggae and dreadlock capital of Thailand and a chill and amazingly pleasant hang-out spot. Wat Tham Wua is a very relaxed monastery and guests are not even required to be on 8 precepts. Technically there are work periods but they never seem to happen. The Ajahn teaches meditation and Qi-Qong once a day and there is an evening puja and talk but other than that you are free.

There are tons and tons of monasteries in Thailand though, including Mahasi places if you want to do a Mahasi retreat.

By the way, the cheapest flight from India to Thailand can be had from www.airindiaexpress.in -- Calcutta/Kolkata to Bangkok for 5,000 rupees.

"Should I take the Burmese approach and just push through it? or the Califronia approach and just "be gentle"? (I'm struggling to find the middle path)"

Hello:
A few thoughts:
a)If you have access to a bathtub, take a nice hot bath, keep noting every movement while doing this. The muscles will voluntarily relax in the heated water. Also, drink, warm liquids, note the sensations while the liquid is moving through. (Chamomile tea.) Being open to taking the hot bath more than once a day, perhaps twice a day for several days, may be helpful.
b)When noting, try and be more specific, looking at the edges or shape of the area that is in pain; is it pulsing, throbbing, pulling, feel into it, be closer with it, what does it look like to you? What is it's exact location? Watch this. Be more specific. As you see an edge come, watch it go. Does it go up or down, left or right, just watch, what is arising, what is passing.
c)Breathe into the pain
d)attend to your body and practice with loving kindness, I do support perseverance. But why not be gentle while you are persevering?
hmm, so many other ideas now, too many to mention, maybe these will suffice in addition to the other suggestions here.

Thank you for your practice, with metta, Constance

Thanks for all the suggestions and support.

It's all helpful, and I've made some adjustments to my practice which should help.

I've signed up for the 40 day retreat with Ajay and Jaya. So, you might hear some more from me over the next three weeks, and then back into radio-silence.

Be happy,

Daniel