When I first came to this forum I did not understand the difference between hard and soft Jhanas. The only Jhanas I have ever experienced have been those that are 100% void of thoughts with complete stillness of the mind. After reading these forums a bit I realized that I had never experienced a soft Jhana, and have only experienced very solid hard Jhanas. I have been practicing for many years, and it is only now after reading peoples experienced that I realized why my practice was different.

I learned about meditation back in highschool. Wanted to improve my concentration, read like 2 articles about it, and tried to meditate. The very first time I meditated in class, I naturally tried a very particular technique that just made sense to me, and after about 5-10 minutes of practicing it, I obtained a very hard Jhana. I was in complete bliss, mind was completely silent, and all that existed was my breath. I stayed like this until my Teacher called me out on sleeping, though I apparently got in trouble because I had ignored him for 10 minutes without realizing it, even though I was completely conscious of my meditation object(my breath).

Reflecting back on my many years of practice after reading this forum, I finally figured out why my method produced such solid results, and I am more than happy to share it.

The Technique:

People tend to dichotomize meditation between 2 types, insight, and concentration. Only now have I realized that this is unnecessary. The meditation that I used to obtain such a rock solid Jhana my first time meditating, was a combination of the 2 practices.

People when doing insight meditations often just note every sensation that arises, without concentrating on anything in particular. When people do concentration meditations, they often just continually bringing the awareness back to the object of meditation, and don't pay much attention to arising thoughts. When doing this, the result is thoughts/emotions will still arise, but they are just being ignored while you are focusing singularly on the object of meditation. This can lead some to get distracted easily.

Now, it's very simple. Simply combine the 2. Focus on your breath, keep bringing your attention back to your breath, but when a thought, emotion, or distraction arises, LABEL IT, become aware of it, do an insight practice towards it. Hold the distraction in your attention for a brief moment until you feel you have it, no more than a second or 2, then let go of it and focus back on the breath.

That's it. Repeatedly doing this will result in a number of things:
-Concentration will increase, leading to a growing absorption.
-Mindfulness and insight will also increase due to the power of concentration. This will allow you catch thoughts or emotions as they arising before they can have any effect on you. You will be able to catch arising sensations and stop them in their tracks.
-The more absorbed you get, the less frequently sensations/thoughts/emotions will arise as you will become increasingly aware of that region of your mind.
-After a certain point thoughts/emotions/sensations will stop arising all together and the Jhana will be instantly solid.

Doing this technique there is no soft Jhanas, only pure, Hard Jhanas, with no thoughts. You will simultaneously be practicing both insight and concentration meditations.

There will be a point where power of concentration grows and grows(if the resources of the mind allows it), to where you will start hearing your subconscious thoughts with an intense awareness as if someone were talking in your ear. The deeper into the mind you go, you will need to start reapplying the Insight technique while maintaining the concentration. Once you have gone to the deepest parts of the mind, when concentration is at its most powerful, you will essentially have stopped all ego thoughts. This is, a moment of enlightenment, though making it permanent takes time, and resources of the mind, as it must rearrange itself. It can take many sittings and refueling.

Now the deeper into the mind you go, if thoughts begin to arise beyond your control, and the labeling them isn't working, yet concentration still seems pretty strong, then that is a clear sign that you need to refuel. If your brain does not have the energy to maintain concentration, then labeling will grow ineffective and concentration will weaken. The Jhana will grow "soft" so to speak, but only because the mind does not have fuel.

Practicing insight and concentration together like this is a far superior method than practicing either one independently. It is far faster than practicing either one technique independently.

Here is another way to look at it, in the sense of a analogy.

• Labeling thoughts and then letting them go is akin to spying a rock/obstacle in the river that is your consciousness, and throwing it out of the stream of the flow.
• The act of concentrating is akin to continually watching the river in order to find rocks and remove them
• The growing power of concentration, absorption, and deepening into the mind is akin to your sight becoming better, allowing you to spot smaller obstacles/rocks(lower/subconscious thoughts) in the river and then remove them.
• The sharper concentration becomes will determine how deeply into the mind you can go. This is akin to how steadily the river is flowing and how deeply you can see into it.
• Weakening concentration is akin to river-cleaner's eyesight growing weak as he is unable to get up the energy to eye rocks out in the river. He needs to go eat so he has the energy to focus on his task and identify the rocks stopping the steady flow of his river.
• The longer the river-cleaner goes without cleaning the river, the more rocks will be blown into it from the wind and will accumulate downstream.
• Eventually the river cleaner will grow so skilled at what he does that he can multi-task, while simultaneously keeping the river clean. This means at a certain level of perfecting this technique, you can go about your everyday life catching thoughts and distractions as they arise while staying focused on whatever you are doing. This will prevent any "rocks" or ego-junk from entering or accumulating in your river while you are not sitting down and practicing. Once this level is attained, a person can maintain a clear consciousness 100% of the time. Though if one does not periodically dedicate time to singularly focused concentration, then his ability to notice very very small 'rocks'(subtle thoughts) will dwindle, and his consciousness/river can slowly become dirtied.

Through this technique, you will remove all rocks from your river of consciousness, allowing it to flow freely and purified. Essentially, when all rocks are completely removed from the river, Enlightenment is attained. For permanent enlightenment to be maintained, one must be able to keep the river of consciousness clean.

Remember, enlightenment is NOT the peak. Enlightenment is a perfect state of awareness of things. In regards to how powerfully you can be aware, the depth of awareness abilities must be developed through sustained and constantly refined concentration. It is through development of this super-deep awareness that brings a ton of mental energy and access to the so called 'siddhis' and supernatural powers.

Never forget, Concentration and Insight go hand in hand. Each one has it's own qualities that support the other one.

While concentration can be built up without any insight, this is akin to a River-Cleaner who is very very good at spotting the rocks of his consciousness, but his river is so powerful that it can do it's highest functions regardless of the 'rocks' that dirty it up. This is why many 'powers' can be attained without enlightenment, but those rocks are still there disrupting the clarity and purity of the river no matter how efficiently it is flowing. Even if the river is in a state of super powerful flow, it would still benefit and increase in power by removing those rocks.

So with all this, never forget, Insight and Concentration practices should be one! This is essentially what the Buddha practiced, and how he attained enlightenment with various powers so quickly. He would focus on his breath to attain Jhana while staying aware of the true nature of sensations that arise(by labeling and knowing them).

I hope I have made this as clear as possible. If there are any questions, I will do my best to answer them! Good-Luck with your practices

Here are some obvious signs that you have attained a very hard Jhana, this was my first experience.


There will be no thoughts, or no worries of thought. You will feel as if you are completely aware of everything that the mind generates during that given moment, if you entered into the Jhana through this technique. That means you are aware and able to stop anything that may arise in the mind. Very soon after entering the Jhana no thoughts will arise and it will be Rock-Solid.


I noticed a number of things after being in such a hard Jhana for even only 5 minutes.

• When I exited out of the Meditation, I seemed to be able to know the thoughts of animals, and feel what they're feeling.
• All anxiety is completely gone, a pure emotional state. I instantly knew how to act appropriately in any given situation depending on what I intended the goal to be. I did not have to think about anything. There was infact no thoughts in this after-state.
• I felt aware of all moving energy in the room, whether it was behind me, or not.
• My reflexes were beyond perfect for about 5-10 minutes after leaving the meditation. I was able to catch flies out of the air with ease.
• I noticed pain and temperature had little effect on me, as if I was so focused, and sensation was just an obstacle in the mind. The moment I labeled it, it would disappear. Though as soon as concentration begins to dwindle, as in it not being well developed as a natural part of your consciousness, then so will your ability to stop rising sensations. This can be prevented by simply practicing more and stabilizing the states so that they are natural, aka, increasing your mastery of them.
• I noticed my memory was absolutely perfect. I managed to remember anything I tried to remember in full detail, as if I was reliving it. One particular memory stood out in my mind of when I came right out of my Mothers womb, I saw my 4 year old sister looking at me(who is 4 years older than me). Though I don't recall much else from that early in my child hood.
• I seem to just know things, my creativity was perfect. I was able to write musically perfectly, on the level of Mozart, flawless, in all aspects. Though as said before, this effect only last as long as the consciousness is pure and solid, so for me only about 5 minutes at the time.
• I could read pages out of a text book and remember every single detail about them and instantly comprehend them.
• I could look at the mechanical lay out of something and fully comprehend instantly how every thing about it worked and how all of it worked together, along with the purpose of each part. This effect seemed to last a few days afterwards, but to a weakening degree over the days.
• I also noticed that I could go to sleep almost instantaneously if I so desired or tried to.
• But over time I also noticed that when I grew to be able to stay in the Jhanas longer, as in my mental energy was naturally higher, I could substitute Jhana for sleep. I could go into a rock-solid Jhana for a 20-30 minutes, and it would feel as if I got a full nights sleep. My record was going 2 months without sleeping. It is said that Samadhi/HardJhana is nothing more than conscious sleep. And that deep-sleep is Samadhi/Hard-Jhana without awareness. Dreaming is akin to a soft-jhana. Where the mind is absorbed into sleeping, yet there are thoughts of the day that arise, and those thoughts create dreams.

There were many other things. To put it shortly, it felt as if the mind was working at perfect efficiency. Now remember, these things will differ between each person. I have always had a mechanical and logical attitude towards things. The things I experienced were things I commonly thought about, such as creativity, music, mechanics, etc. Though there were also subtler things that I would just notice, such as knowing people and animals emotional states.

The point is your experience will differ slightly based on what you do everyday. Though the foundation that these experiences arise out of will be the same, assuming you do the technique properly(which it's very easy :p) and attain a hard Jhana, even for a short period of time.

Interesting post man. May i ask out of curiosity, what are you referring to as the 'peak' of 'spiritual' practice, if it is not enlightenment?

Enlightenment is used to escape the Karmic cycle. Meaning upon death, there will be no Karma, or "lingering ego" to draw the person back to earth.

To understand what I'm getting at, one must understand that everything in the existence is energy. Energy in different forms. The range of potential energy forms is limitless.

Consciousness with no activity is essentially Karma-less. Activity of consciousness is Karma.

There are 2 ways to escape the burden of having a physical body:

To make consciousness activity-less, and be in a perpetual state of judgeless perception without ego, aka, enlightenment.
OR
To make consciousness so powerful that it does not need a physical body to exist. In theory this consciousness could exist anywhere in the universe, in any realm, in any form, but it still with ego, is still with perception. One could theoretically come and go from a physical as desired, in any form. The consciousness would be so powerful that it would resist the natural gravity of it's own Karma that brings a normal consciousness back to the physical body.

The catch to this is that the consciousness it not really free from "suffering". As long as it is capable of making a decision, there is no freedom from "suffering". But what is suffering? The Buddha rationalized that any desire, or will, is a form of suffering. A person of this caliber of consciousness would not particularly be in suffering. They would actually be in complete bliss at all times, regardless of a body. Though, by the Buddhas definition, the person is still in a state of action, so they are still suffering, even though they are not in any pain.

So, suppose a person gains immense power of consciousness, has many Siddhis, but has never attained enlightenment. When they die, there is a whole mess of spiritual realms out there, spiritual planets, dimensions, such and such.

The Buddhas idea of escaping suffering was to get consciousness to such a mode of stillness that there is absolutely no will, no nothing. While the experience of this type of consciousness would be bliss, it would be doing absolutely nothing, except existing. Though, it's even a bit much to say it is existing.

An enlightened being in this complete mode of stillness does not necessarily have to have the immense power of consciousness that siddhis and energetic freedom are birthed out of. The Buddha saw that even these spiritual realms, and after-worlds that exist outside of physical reality, that a powerful enough consciousness can exist in freely at his own merit, are still a form of captivity, a form of suffering.

Despite the experiences of masters that say there is no pain in these after worlds, and the higher dimension you rise to, the more bliss and purity there is. "Heaven" one might refer to a particular part of it.

All and all, suffering is just a label.

Consciousness can be in many states. Enlightenment is one of those states, a state of a very particular energetic quality and behavior, this does not determine the strength of that energy. Enlightenment is not the penultimate of achievements, though it is an achievement none-the-less. Then there are the other states where consciousness can be so powerful that it can exist without bounds and navigate freely through the spiritual realms. By the definition of the Buddha, having these options is a form of suffering.

This latter state of consciousness is the caliber of those entities known as angels, or very powerful spiritual entities. I typically dislike the word angel as people think of an angel from the bible. According to the Buddha, even the angels are suffering. Even though their experience is entirely pure and without mortal pain or emotional pain.

With all this in mind, just remember, energy can exist in any state that is desired.The more powerful your consciousness, the more options you have. Even a being who has become super powerful and can supposedly transcend all the laws of the physical world, could change his energy state in an instant, and be enlightened.

Being enlightened does not mean you are free from suffering. Enlightenment is a state of perception and knowing, but it is this state of perception and knowing that grants you the ability to be free from suffering. An enlightened being who stays in his body is still "suffering" by definition, as his energy has a definite form that can easily be effected, although still being enlightened.


I know this post has sounded kind of repetitive, but I'm just trying to make sure I can get the point across in as many ways as possible. Suffering is just a label. At very high levels of consciousness, what you consider suffering now(physical/emotional pain), is impossible at high levels of consciousness, but it is still suffering in a certain aspect.

Consciousness can exist in any state you can imagine, it has no limits. Whether it be teleporting across the universe in different forms, acting as some sort of spiritual entity, or simple deciding to be enlightened and being completely inert and doing nothing, aka being completely "free" from suffering or anything that can potentially cause suffering.

Now please do not take this as a sign to forget about enlightenment and become some spiritual super entity capable of creating worlds with a single thought. It is really unimportant. All these ideas are unimportant. What is important is practice. Practice and your options will become very clear to you.

I am not saying all of this to convert anyone to any sort of Dogma. In fact, I would like people to believe none of this, and decide to practice themselves to find out the truth. With that said, they should also abandon the idea of enlightenment. Simply practice, and practice, and practice, and learn what you can do, learn what your options are. It may shock you to know that what the Buddha called suffering, is not all bad, and is not needed to be avoided at all cost.

Suffering is life, and life is suffering, simple and plain. When I say life I do not mean physical life. I mean the conscious experience of consciousness itself. The experience of being.

Basically here's the short form of the above message.

Ego is the source of all suffering. Removal of Ego = Enlightenment without suffering.

A conscious experience of existence cannot happen without Ego. Ego is needed to exist, to experience. Ego is simply an energy form, a mask if you will, that the pure conscious gives form to in order to operate in the cosmos. That includes whatever form that consciousness is existing in. Whether it be a purely physical body on earth, or some spiritual upper realm form acting as an all powerful entity with will.

Without that Ego conscious simply is what it is, pure, actionless consciousness.


Also note that when I say Ego I am not talking about the typical Egotistical person. I am talking about the source of which all action, desire, and will arises from. Consciousness cannot have action, desire, or will without a very small bit of Ego, or Mind.

Can you define what you mean with "energy"?

However, interesting post...

Well, assuming energy is the rawest form of existence, there's not much defining that can be done, and I say this from a Quantum Physics point of view.

Energy is what constitutes every single thing in the universe. Particles are nothing but energy of a certain mathematical wave-state. Some people say everything is conscious. Implying that consciousness is what makes up the universe; that the consciousness is simply energy.

Mathematics is like the programming language of the universe and energy is that which is being programmed. It's all one big infinite series of infinite potential complexity.

You can't really define it. Defining it would be applying form to it, limitations. It is what it is, It's energy.

Not even a scientist would be able to give you a different answer. It is what it is, and it's as simple as that.

I would also like to Apologize for the apparent unorganization of my posts. I typed it up on a whim without much planning. I do plan to go back and put it all in an organized easy to navigate format for ease of comprehension, at a later date.

Yea, interesting. Going back to your first post, in talking about not differentiating between shamatha and insight practice, this is pretty much what is taught by the mahasi sayadaw school isnt it? Its what my teacher teaches. To note the breath continually, and when something else arises, note it, and then return to the breath. This is what you are expounding, no? Do you use noting when you do it? And if so do you note the breath as well as other sensations and/or distractions from the breath? When you pay attention to the breath, do you focus on it as one concrete thing or investigate it as a host of changing physical sensations? Also do you notice the noticing of the breath, by the mind, the perception of the breath, and so on? Thanks!

I am not familiar with that school so I am not sure.


There is no noting of the breath going on. The only thing you should be noting are sensations that CAPTURE your attention, or get in the way of your focusing on the breath. Do not note things if they do not take your attention away from the breath. When focusing on the breath, you should do so just as you would with concentration practice, do not note the breath.

Imagine that when you note something and let it go, it disappears. Thoughts are like objects. As your breath is an object. Complete absorption is that of only 1 object. You would have successfully noted all thoughts in combination with being so focused that they simply do not come up anymore, and if they do, you note them so they go away. If you do not note them and simply ignore them, then they only grow in strength. The more absorbed concentration grows, the less thoughts will pop up. The less thoughts that pop up, the more quickly concentration will become absorbed. Hitting a Hard Jhana with this technique can usually be done in under 20 minutes.

The catch is, as your concentration deepens, so will the strength of your thoughts, and thus will your ability for those thoughts to capture your attention. You WANT the thoughts to capture your attention, because this is the only way to note them in a manner where they will not come back.

If you go out of your way to find sensations and note them, then you are obviously not concentrating on the breath and you will not enter the Jhana. As your concentration deepens, the energy of your awareness will increase. It is through this which more and more thoughts can capture your attention. Your primary task should be to focus on the breath. Thoughts are obstacles. When obstacles get in your way, note them, and let them go, then go back to focusing on the breath.

Do not note them if you do not know they are there. The only way you will know it is there, and the only way you will know that you need to note it is if you become aware of its existence while focusing on the breath. If you were to search for these thoughts, that would imply that you do not have current awareness of their existence.

You can only ignore something if you know it is there. So don't ignore thoughts. When you're concentrating, you're not ignoring the thoughts that you don't know are there. If you don't know they are there, then they simply fade away. If when you are focusing, you come to KNOW of the existence of a sensation, then that is what you note. This is the act of mindful concentration.

You basically keep noting that which is noticed in your attention, but do not go searching for them. If you are searching then you are not concentrating. Sometimes powerful sensations will arise that will enter your field of awareness, these are the things that you want to note. Things such as a buzzing noise in your room.

As clarity of mind increases so will your awareness of the sensations that arises. When your awareness/mindfulness of sensations is high, and concentration is strong enough, then anything you note should only arise once or twice during the sitting. Soon sensations will stop arising all together, mindfulness will be at it's peak, there will be no thoughts, and concentration will be very solid.

This is not full insight, nor full concentration, but a merging of them so that they become 1. Concentrate on the breath. Only note the things that enter your awareness. Try to be mindful, yet focusing on the breath only.


Imagine you are in a room of flies, and that you are concentrating on a particular part of the room. There are flies everywhere, but you don't go looking for them. When a fly enters your field of awareness, then catch(note) it. This is akin to noting a thought. When you catch it, it's done. You basically keep focusing on that field of awareness until no more flies/thoughts enter it. Combining these 2 things together, your concentration will begin to become absorbed with the thing that you are being aware of, and flies/thoughts will gradually stop entering your field of awareness.

This post is a little long so I tried to make it as clear as I could :p. Ask if you have any more questions.

Edit:
The goal to have a well developed Mindfulness as well as a well developed Concentration.

Mindfulness is developed by noting thoughts that capture your attention.
Concentration is developed by focusing your attention on a single object(preferably the breath)

You want to do these things simultaneously in such a way that they do not come in conflict with each other by your intentional action. Concentration is never stopped by intentional will, it is only interrupted by thoughts that capture your attention. You then use mindfulness to stop those thoughts and resume your concentration.

I know this might seem complex since I am typing SO MUCH about it, but it's really very simple to do. I am just trying to cover it from as many perspectives as I can so that as many people as possible can understand it.

Ok. Your detail is very much appreciated. Thank you.

I can relate to some of the points that you have made after being in a hard jhana.

I have also had difficult time understanding the division between insight and concentration practice, for me meditation has always been the combination of the two like you say.

Hey N&V, a few questions for clarification:


"seemed"? Were you able or weren't you? Which animals? Was it animals in close proximity to you, or just anywhere on the planet? And how did you confirm that what you believed to be their "thoughts" actually were?


What is "moving" energy? How do you know you were aware of all of it? How do you know there wasn't some there of which you were *not* aware?


"Perfect" would usually mean something like "that beyond which nothing exists". In that sense "beyond perfect" is meaningless. What do *you* mean by "perfect"?

How many flies did you catch? Were they in your house? Do you have a lot of flies in your house? You said earlier you could know the thoughts of animals. Were you able to discern the thoughts of the flies? What were they thinking?


How was your memory perfect when you couldn't recall much else from your early childhood?


What is "perfect" music? Have you published any we could see? How do you know it was "on the level of Mozart". Mozart himself was not perfect, so were you again using the word "perfect" in some non-standard sense?


What was the "something"? Do you mean "anything"? Could you look at the internal architecture of a modern microprocessor and comprehend it instantly. If so, I may be interested in hiring you.

Robert

Hello again

I'd like to know how you would describe your experience of jhanas in relation to theese parameters, in order to get a better idea of what kind of jhanic experience you are referring to:

1 Impermanence vs solidity of the sensations building up jhana factors
2 diffusiveness in the body: are you aware of the whole of your body pervaded by the jhana factors? or maybe some of the parts of your body does not arise?
3 is there any physical perception of someting other than the jhana factors? By that i mean like pain, air touching the nostrils, touching point with the floor...

Bye!

I can relate to the impressive gain in intelligence, caused by stopping identifying with thoughts (taking the bug out of the system). Unfortunately my experience of it only occurred once, lasting an hour or so, and I never managed to make it into a permanent state.



Similar thing here, except I was playing a chess game, seeing way beyond the surface. Selfless, parallel, non-linear, multi-layered, non-lingual, thinking - going on - rather than me doing it.

Those things that you noticed after being in a very hard Jhana, do they still occur? Are those integrated in your dailly life/state of mind?



At the time, I had an interest in logic, puzzles etc. It might explain why relatively little people report such experiences.

How do you know these things differ between persons? Did you teach your technique to others? How does the increased efficiency manifest in other people?

What beautifully expressed dharma! Thank you so much for your words. I realize more and more, that there is so much high-level dharma being discussed in such an open and honest way on this forum. I would appreciate that in and of itself, but since I've began to practice vipassana and have run into dark night territory, I'm inexpressibly grateful for people like you who can clearly express practice techniques in a pragmatic manner. My practice becomes more and more refined as I run into high quality advice from those of you who seem to possess some degree of mastery and understanding of this territory. You apologize for lack of clarity, but your advice is explicit, unambiguous, and therefore easy to understand. Length is also not a concern. I believe I speak for a lot of dharma nerds when I say that we would read pages and pages of such quality information happily.

For both refinement of the nana of equanimity and to soothe my pain in the dukkha nanas, I've been looking for a way to try to get harder jhanas. I can essentially do a soft run through from baseline up to equanimity, but there's not really a lot of "absorption". I have the rough sketch of the jhanic practice, but your technique sounds just what I need to stay precise in my practice towards stream entry, and to refine my crude jhanas. I started trying to practice jhana, basically straight from the pali canon. I didn't seem to hit jhana at all, except maybe once out of many months of trying. Then I stumbled upon Ingram's work, and tried some vipassana. Immediately (literally the first time practicing vipassana, I believe), I crossed the A&P. Then, upon returning to jhana, I seemed to be able to hit soft jhanas. The relationship between vipassana and jhana was apparent, but I just figured that I should cycle between jhana and vipassana practice. Then, Tommy guided me through my initial progress, pointing out how jhana and vipassana aren't exclusive. Since then, I've basically used jhana to springboard into vipassana, or to take the edge off dukkha nana stuff. You seem to have come to an excellent understanding of the Buddha's use of jhana and vipassana together in real-time. Did you go back in time to listen to the Buddha's teachings? (but I did read somewhere about an arhat, also a master of jhana, who claimed to be able to go back and listen to the Buddha teach)

Hey, I'm a (classical) composer too, a pianist! Would you like to share music? Are you familiar with Scriabin? I have lots of theories on how insight, samadhi, and classical composers might be linked, but of course it's just speculation.

Thanks for these posts, Null & Void, there's lots of really good material here and it's expressed well and in an accessible way. Your efforts are appreciated, thanks for taking the time to write this.

Thanks a lot for this Null&Void. While reading your post, it dawned on me that "accidentally" doing this during my sits was a big reason why some sits went much better than others. I'll take it into account and experiment with it. The rest of your post was all very interesting too.

The teacher walks into a classroom, opens up a vial of liquid concentrate peppermint. He's testing how long it takes the students to be able to smell the peppermint, tells them to raise their hands when they start to smell the mint. Slowly the students begin to raise to their hands. One, then the next, then the next. The teacher says, "Oh good that was quick, you all can smell the peppermint?" I'm sure you've guessed by now: it was odorless water.

It's not there's no value in what's being said here, there's some good practical advice on technique, and maybe people are speaking metaphorically when they talk of angels and knowing what happens after you die and being able to read thoughts of animals but I have to say---

My heart sinks seeing such disregard for the nature of evidence, the unreliability of self-reporting and the full scale approval of someone's untestable claims.

"Extraordinary claims require extraordinary evidence" doesn't mean anything?

And some people who posted here I really respect and have gained much from their knowledge and their willingness to share. But I wish I saw more critical thinking applied and more humility concerning our epistemological limits. We have powerful, life transforming experiences here, but we should be open and honest and less quick to claim ultimate objective truth.

.....Is no one curious to hear him answer Robert Mclune's questions?

Wow this is the one of the funniest things I've seen on the DhO ha.



I wasn't planning on saying anything but I pretty much agree. However for the most part people seemed to just focus on the practical advice and filter out the claims. Also I'd question what assumptions you bring to the world that (specifically the behavior of the respondents) is something your "heart sinks" at. Is the scientific method some sort of Ultimate Objective Truth in disguise? Any time your "heart sinks" I think you should look inward at the perceptions and beliefs that are causing that to happen.

I too am curious.

I am also going to try this technique next time I sit!

Oddly enough, I was thinking just recently about a label, "Not", to use for any phenomena outside the designated domain of focus but I was thinking only in terms of facilitating the insight practice. That abstraction should simplify and streamline the labelling part of this shamatha vipashyana yuganaddha.

A lot. I bring a lot of assumptions to the world. Sometimes I'm heartened. Sometimes I'm disappointed. What-ah-ya-gonna-do?

Science, and its methods, are self-correcting. There's no certainty beyond the provisional, so it's disqualified from being an Ultimate Objective Truth, with or without disguise. Plus the question's off. How can a method be an ultimate truth?

I did look inward. And I'm sorry if the words "heart sinks" made it sound like I was looking for a bridge to jump off of. I'm not. But I am looking to get off this couch. Point taken on the overstatement.

I'm starting to use a little bit of labeling in samatha. I find out it helps getting me back to the object. I use a quick "past" "present" "future" label. The first and last are pretty self explanatory: thoughts/regrets of the Past, plans/worries for the Future. The Present I use as a blanket term for the hindrances. I haven't done Insight yet and I'm worried about complicating the hell out of it and screwing it all up. But I think these three labels are a good bridge in between, and to get the thing started. I'm also going to be trying out these techniques.

This whole thread is incredibly lame. I tried the technique the OPer suggests, and it didn't produce anything besides ordinary jhana.

The fact that no one bothered to sit down and try this for themselves is what's really disheartening.

Yes, yes I am.

I tried this practice for an hour, and although it wasn't nearly as profound for me as N&V reports, I did find it useful and think it merits further investigation. Coincidentally, it ties together very neatly a few strands I happen to have been exploring lately into one very elegant bundle. Thanks for the detailed report!

My dog thinks it was great, and that we should go for a walk. My dog thinks that jhana in general is a very peculiar exercise, the cognitive equivalent of standing on one leg to compensate for something unsatisfactory about the duality of bipedal locomotion. The duality of conscious experience is of course not the duality of subject and object, but the duality of the object of experience and the activity of experiencing it. When one is present to both, one is conscious; but people do not normally advert to the self-presence of consciousness even though they are perfectly conscious. My dog is quite convinced that jhana depends on accentuating this "absent-mindedness" by suppressing even more than usual one's presence to the activity of experiencing (...for the rupa jhanas; the arupas one flips the other way and "drops" the object in favour of just the activity.) Powers and siddhis of all kinds depend upon this absent-minded projection. My dog is quite bemused at what his master thinks and does as a result of being conscious, and even more so as a result of augmenting the quality of his self-presence through meditation -- because most of it seems to have very little to do with what is obviously really, really important, which is going for a walk.

Are you gonna go all Son Of Sam now?

I would also like to to see Robert Mclune's questions answered by Null & Void/Scott.

Nick

This could be useful to me, as even Mahasi noting seems to make me less stable.. I would consider this like Mahasi without the main note. I will give it a shot. I suspect that the OP has a natural inclination for harder jhanas but the technique sounds like it should have some merit and is worth trying out.

edit - this sort of idea is precisely why the DHO should exist! We are all different...

For those waiting for some answers, here are some possible ones for you:

1. I was making this part up as an ironic joke, as a test to how seriously people would take my spiritual advice despite saying other things which were clearly ridiculous. And of course I haven't discovered a radical new technique that will almost certainly lead everyone to a 100% super rock hard jhana was great ease if they just follow the simple instructions. That would be silly. I hope you all appreciated the humour.
2. This definitely is what happened at the time and I am still convinced all these things are/were true.
3. It definitely felt like this at the time, but since then I have realised I was gripped by some form of manic delusional disorder, leading to those grandiose-type symptoms. I am better now though, thanks for asking.

I can't help but notice this technique being talked about is already what vipassana practice is. Read mahasi or pandita's instruction on vipassana. it is focusing on the break in the main, labeling it, and if something else arises, note that for a time then come back to the breath. Actually daniel ingram describes this even in his book. The fact that this is being seen as a new idea is confusing to me. Anyway, just my 2 cents. What do i know? Thanks!

Hello Scott,

Thank you for the excellent technique.



IMHO, this would bring about such a fast results you describe, in case when one feels the suffering inherent to the distraction, in comparison with the lesser suffering of focusing of the breath. Feeling relative dukkha is a wonderful insight practice.

As Buddha said in Samaññaphala Sutta:

60. Evameva kho mahārāja bhikkhu yathā guṇaṃ yathā rogaṃ yathā bandhanāgāraṃ yathā dāsabyaṃ yathā kantāraddhānamaggaṃ evaṃ ime pañca nīvaraṇe appahīṇe attani samanupassati. Seyyathāpi mahārāja ānaṇyaṃ yathā ārogyaṃ yathā bandhanā mokkhaṃ yathā bhujissaṃ yathā khemantabhūmiṃ evameva kho mahārāja bhikkhu ime pañca nīvaraṇe pahīṇe attani samanupassati.

61. Tassime pañca nīvaraṇe pahīṇe attani samanupassato pāmojjaṃ jāyati. Pamuditassa pīti jāyati. Pītimanassa kāyo passambhati. Passaddhakāyo sukhaṃ vedeti. Sukhino cittaṃ samādhiyati.

"In the same way, when these five hindrances are not abandoned in himself, the monk regards it as a debt, a sickness, a prison, slavery, a road through desolate country. But when these five hindrances are abandoned in himself, he regards it as unindebtedness, good health, release from prison, freedom, a place of security. Seeing that they have been abandoned within him, he becomes glad. Glad, he becomes enraptured. Enraptured, his body grows tranquil. His body tranquil, he is sensitive to pleasure. Feeling pleasure, his mind becomes concentrated."

http://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitaka/dn/dn.02.0.than.html

Does this relate to your experience?

Tried this - I like it. I get more concentrated than with straight mahasi, yet there is still an insight component. I was able to get decently collected on the breathing (for me) - in the midst of a mental 'storm'. I will try it some more and report back after a bit.

Scott V, are you still active on this site?

Hey Scott,    
     I found your post really interesting!  It sounds like you are experiencing Jhanas as described in the Visuddhimagga.  I haven't exerienced this but I'm just guessing based on what I've heard!  I understand that barely anybody is able to experience these Jhanas, even full tme monastics as they are incredibly difficult to reach for most people.

I recently sat a 17 day retreat in Myanmar with U Pandita himself.  Although he doesn't teach the Jhanas persay(he teaches this combination of concentration and insight you speak of), I'm sure one must eventually experience Vipassana Jhanas (otherwise known as Visuddhimagga Jhanas - someone please correct me if I'm making a mistake on that) while practicing there.

I tried to follow U Pandita's instructions to the T and gt absolutely nowhere, it was really a terrible 17 days.  I tried to stay with it as much as I could but I just had no ability to stay concentrated and got continuously agitated, too much so to practice properly.  

I think different things work for different people at different times and the Hard Jhanas are sometimes too much, definitely for me!  So I'm working on Tranquility to balance out my practice.  

Any thoughts or suggestions on this?

Thanks!

From what I can garner (and correct me if I'm mistaken), Scott V is Sawfoot_, who sorta explains himself above. 

Nope. People seemed to really want Scott V to reappear, and I figured (correctly) that we would never hear from him again. so my wording was to give some of the possible answers he may have given again had he responded. I am guessing he would have gone for answer b. 

It's funnny the thread still keeps attracting attention though. You know if something sounds too good to be true....

How is this lame, its still concentrating on the breath isn't it? Only thing that seems to be added is that your removing thoughts to make your concentration stronger. Not to be rude but i am a newbie still learning about this, may i ask what would be the difference between this technquie and a higher standard technquie?

That's so crazy, Tarver...that's exactly what my dog was thinking too!

This is one of my favorite dho threads just for Robert McLune's questions. If I got a vote.

Tried the technique!

Works like a charm!

Almost had a full blown jhana absorption, but the bliss was heavenly!!!! yeah!!!

It's a shame most of you guys don't try it...

Nice, What was your experience with it?

Mostly the Jhana factors arising very fast and intense, like piti and sukha, I can literally feel blissful in all kinds of degrees (bodily bliss and mental bliss) as long as I keep doing this tecnique or change my object to the bliss and do the same with the distactions, then the bliss becomes very heavenly as well...

Couple of times I was almost fully absorbed, usually when that happens for me it shifts me automaticaly to the 2nd Jhana.

But yeah it's a genuine technique! you can't go wrong with it since you have to have distractions in order to success with this...

Also it's concentration + insight so it's a WIN WIN!

Oh nice! very similar to what i have achieved, Is there any way i can contact u so i can share my results / experiences with you more privately???? Iv been looking for people who have had good results who can get to jhana or get close to it. I don't find many people who can get there and most people i do come incontact with usually dissapear, iv got there twice before and it was very intense. Couldn't sit still though lol. Still struggling a bit at times though and feel i need bit of help. Its a lifetime thing im working to master, right now im trying to learn to get there and be able to stay in it all night.

Sure! I can't send my email to you via the messages system, perhaps you can try to me

Sure, i really don't mind sharing this here but you choose. If you got skype my username is "divinity2.0" and email is "whyucamping@gmail.com" xd.. I find it easier though if its more of a pm rather than email but u choose.

I always had the most success in absportion when I used the bodily bliss as object, but only when the bliss is strong and stable enough.
I used to have success more with pure concentration on the nostrils and ignore all thoughts as they come... and much more chances to hit Jhana, and if not... well at least you will still feel great satisfying bliss

I agree with you on this and thanks questioning why Scott V never responded to Robert McLune's questions. Seems like a lot of Wrong View going on.

-Jorge

Has anyone else tried this technique?  I see no one has replied on this discussion in a while.  Just curious to see if anyone experience jhana with this.  Thanks. 
-Joel