40 minute sit. Started with focusing on the breath through my nostrils, which has worked better for me than focusing on my abdomen. Was rapidly replaced by a 1-2 jhanna feeling, a warm glowing feeling that suffused my whole body. After some time my body mostly disappeared, except for a small segment of a sphere from my lower back around my bottom. This started to fade at some point, and I started to lose focus, and had to start focusing on the breath again. Then rapidly went back to the feelings I associate with Johanna's 1-2 and 3 again. Wonderful, blissful experience in general.

Got another ~20 minutes in last night. Same blissful session as before. I think I got through all four lower jhannas in the short session.

Today I sat for 1 hour, then took a short break, then sat for another hour. It was the longest sit I've ever done, and was a disaster. Most of the issue for me is that I was extremely excited at my recent progress, and started to daydream about how I would post in this practice log about what a great session I had, and how everyone would tell me how awesome I am, and point to me as an example of a person on the path to greatness. I don't think I have to tell anyone what a huge meditation killer this is. Every time I managed to string 5-6 breaths together without wandering off, I could feel the jhannas develop again, but these times were few and far between. My monkey mind was bouncing around everywhere, and the best of the tricks that I've developed didn't help very much. I tried counting breaths, and then noticed that I've developed the ability to daydream and still count breaths. I tried focusing on the jhannas themselves, rather than the breaths, which worked for a while, and then didn't. I tried noting the fact that I was distracted, to see if the distraction would go away, which worked and then didn't. Toward the end of the second hour my back and legs started aching, which didn't help much either.

It's tempting to simply delete the practice log and go on meditating on my own, but I think this is something I have to confront and sit through. I'll try to get another session in tonight to see if I can just get through this by sheer persistence. I've also somewhat obscured the name of my account; I'm not hiding or anything, I just think that this might remove some of my anxieties about meditating in such a public place.

30 minutes, then a break, then 60 minutes. Better than yesterday, but mind kept racing. I'm starting to worry that I'm lacking basic concentration abilities after all this time, so I went back to just focusing on the breath, and bringing it back to that over and over again. Helped a bit, but was a struggle most of the time.

Don't beat yourself up over this. Every meditation session that you perform, no matter whether it was perceived to be a "good" session or a "bad" session, is all just grist for the mill. It's all good, no matter how you are inclined to view it in the moment.

This is how most people experience this practice, until they begin to make some breakthroughs in insight. Then, things can begin to take on an added dimension of interest and wonder and urgency.

Every time you bring the mind back to the meditation object is a small victory, whether you realize it at the time or not. What you're doing is exercising the mind, just as you would when lifting weights to build muscle, disciplining it to follow your directions and orders. If you do this long enough and consistently enough, the mind will eventually break down and begin following the directions you give it. You will gain some control over the mind, and the amount of that control will gradually increase the more you stay at it. But you have to be persistent and dogged in your practice, and don't give up!

Look at it this way: it took years for your mind to develop the unwholesome habits it has developed, and to gain control over your best intentions for it. Undoing that conditioning isn't going to happen over night. It takes discipline and endurance and diligent practice to overcome those years of unwholesome conditioning. So, just remember, every time you sit in meditation is a small victory for you over the conditioning of mind you're trying to break.

Once you figure out how to enter dhyana at will, things will begin to become a bit easier. Dhyana leads to samadhi, and this is where you eventually want to end up at, as samadhi will be used during contemplation/insight practice in order to allow insight to arise and enlighten the mind.

You're doing fine. Everything you're mentioning is just par for the course. Just keep at it.

Thanks, Ian.

Sat for another 30 minutes after my run this morning. Much better session. Paid very close attention to the whispers of voices that arose around the fringes of my breath, and was able to get some longer spaces between my thoughts.

Some other observations of what has been going on. Normally I really love to listen to indie rock music. Since I started meditating more intensely, I really can only listen to sparse classical music (Philip Glass, Erik Satie, etc.), or just the Dharma talks I have on my iPod. I'm also a pretty voracious reader, and I haven't really had much interest in anything other than Dharma books.

I also find that I really want to mediate more often during the day, sometimes 3-4 different times, which is strange because before this streak I found it hard to sit for more than a single 30 minute session in the morning.

Intense sensuous feelings of all kinds as well, often making it hard to meditate.

These may just be a sign of the "latest obsession", since I tend to run hot and cold with many of my interests, and maybe I'll cool off in a bit. Or it may be the sign of an impending Dark Night.

A final sit for the day, 30 minutes. Had intended to simply follow the breath, and to pay close attention to the words that were going on quietly in the background, but I never really settled in. I was wearing more constricting pants, and I never could get comfortable taking deep breaths. Tried to focus on the intention to inhale/exhale that precedes each part of the breath, and was successful to a small degree. Then, when I had totally given up having a successful sitting (I know I'm not supposed to think of these as successful/unsuccessful, but still...) some of the jhannas showed up and let me focus for the last few minutes.

Another 2 hour sitting. I've been reading and enjoying Sayadaw's Progress of Insight, and this time I actually thought "In Breath" and "Out Breath" as I was breathing. Meditation felt very muscular and firm, and was able to stay focused most of the time, but it didn't have the intense feelings of jhannas or bliss that I've had in the past. Started to feel my focus shift forward a couple of times.

2 hours sitting. Some back and leg pain/stiffness, as there was yesterday. Very intense sensual feelings. Tried to focus on the breath. Experimented with verbalizing "In Breath" and "Out Breath" as I was breathing, which kept me focused, but got "noisy", as I got tired of hearing my voice. Then alternated with trying to be as quiet as possible, and listening for the very quiet whisperings that always go on in the bottom of my awareness. Again had the feelings of my mind slipping out forward. Also had some glowing feelings in my hands toward the end.

Got two 10 minute sits in at work today. The earth didn't move or anything, but I was proud to reach for the meditation pillow rather than the web browser when I needed a break. My practice has great momentum right now, largely in thanks to the great support I've gotten here at DhO. Thanks!

90 minutes this morning. Managed to stay with the breath most of the time. Felt what I've been thinking of as the first jhana (and may or may not be) arising twice, but didn't force it and it went away.

Managed to fit in ~60 minutes more meditation yesterday afternoon and evening. The last 30 minutes of which was in a single sitting before bed. Had just reread Leigh Brasington's Instructions for Entering Jhanas. Focused on my breath, and then on the very warm feeling that developed in my hands, which, after it stuck around for a while, I identified with the first jhana. Never developed into the second jhana, nor could I spread the warm feeling over my whole body.

Woke up at 2am, and it felt like I was already meditating and in the 2nd jhana. Wanted to just breathe and go back to sleep, but my body clearly wanted to meditate, so I got up and sat for 90 minutes. Intended to sit for 2 hours, but my back and right knee got sore enough that I thought I would give my body a chance to catch up to all the sitting, and backed off. Steady 2nd jhana at the start of the session. Got annoying (?) after a while, so I went back to focusing on my breath.

I'm feeling huge changes going on inside me right now, something that meditation has never done for me before. Don't know what it is, or where I am, and don't really care right now. I know I have a tendency to want to jump ahead, and I know that can be a real mistake with the nanas, so I'm trying to simply go slowly, pay close attention to my mind, and sit as much as I possibly can.

Sat for 30 minutes before bed last night. Started experimenting with insight practice (as opposed to the concentration practice I had been doing), just trying to be aware of what I was noticing. Didn't really get it, so I reread the MCTB section on impermanence that describes the insight practice in detail.

Sat for 30 minutes thus far this morning. Tried the impermanence exercise where one notices the left/right index fingers. Then switched to noticing the breath. Right now, insight just feels like bad concentration. All I'm aware of is my pulse racing around through other parts of my body, although maybe that's the point. I have to say that I miss the quiet strength of concentration practice. Will try to get some more sitting time in later this morning.
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(Later)
Got another 30 minutes done. 15 minutes concentration/15 minutes insight + concentration.
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(Even later)
One trick that has worked pretty well is to sit for 10 minutes every time I come back to my office after having been in a meeting. This generally gives me another 20-30 minutes during the day, and makes it easier to do a longer sitting at night.
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(Still later)
Had a *horrible* afternoon, which at least did me the favor of dispelling the illusion that meditation would make me an iron-clad superman. Maybe later ;-). Got one last 30 minute sitting in, which wasn't all that focused, but was a great refuge.

Sat for 2 hours this morning. 1 hour, then a short break with walking to stretch out, then another hour. Mostly did concentration practice. Quickly got to the first jhanna. Eventually went to a state that I had been calling the 2nd jhanna, but I'm beginning to think that this is just a "really good first jhanna" rather than a "second jhanna" experience. I'll do some more reading and study to see if I can tell the difference.

The insight practice hasn't been clicking for me. I know that I have to do it more persistently, but since the concentration practice is going so well, and has been so blissful, I find myself going with that practice. Toward the end of the second hour I felt a little burned out, and I started exploring the feeling. However, every time I start noting my mind just starts flying all over the place, and I can't tell the difference between "insight practice" and "distracted concentration practice". This time around, I had a pretty good foundation from the jhanna state, and that was a little more productive. Maybe I'm just using an excuse to stay with concentration and procrastinate the real work of insight, but my plan right now is to see if I can develop further jhannas, and perhaps that will give me a better lens through which to examine insight.

Sat for 2 hours this morning.

One hour of concentration, starting with breathing, then shifting over to focusing on the first jhanna as it arose, which it did fairly shortly after sitting down. Two different jhanna feelings arose, the first in the center of my body, which then dissolved, as if my whole body was a sphere that was disappearing. Really wonderful, but I may have clinged to it, or my mind may have just wandered, since that feeling disappeared, and I had to go back to focusing on breath, and when the next sensation arose that I focused on, it was the warm hands feeling, which isn't as overwhelming. After rereading some Brasington on the jhannas, I had hoped that I could focus on the emotional feeling and shift to a real second jhanna experience, but I don't believe this happened, unless the large sphere feeling was that.

Took a short break and walked.

Second hour I started noting. I've noticed (heh) in trying to note the breath that I often exaggerate the vibrations. So I tried to breathe as smoothly as possible, and still sense discrete moments of sensation. Noticed a lot of other things along the way (sound of the refrigerator, heat turning on/off, pain in my leg, etc.). Toward the end of the second hour I was getting distracted by leg and back stiffness (better today than yesterday, but still), and started looking at the clock.

More generally, starting to feel the effect of my actions. Overeating makes it hard to have a good sitting. I know, duh, but it's becoming more important to me to have a good sitting than it is to enjoy the last bit of the hamburger. Starting to feel a great bit of guilt about the pain that I cause other people, being acutely aware of that pain, and wanting to stop doing that. Starting to feel the additional distraction that (ahem) indulging in my senses causes as well. I understand this is a normal development along the path.

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Hiked up into the mountains a bit with my son. While he explored the rocks and trails, I sat for another 30-40 minutes on a chilly day warmed by the son. Even felt the jhanna for part of the hike back to the car.

Another 2 hour sit this morning.

First hour was 30 minutes of concentration, during which the first jhanna developed very quickly and rather overwhelmingly, and then subsided into something much more transparant and calm. I followed this with 30 minutes of Mahasi noting. Still don't really know what I'm supposed to be doing here, just trying to stay present and note as much as possible.

Back was quite sore toward the end. Rather than doing walking meditation during the break, I did a 15 minute yoga set, which made me feel much better when I sat down again.

Started the second hour with some Metta. Then tried to get my concentration going again, but never really did. Tried to note, then, and wasn't all that successful with that either. Whether this was because of the Yoga, the lack of walking, the Metta, or totally unrelated is beyond my powers of analysis. Kept on trying to note as much as possible and to get a focus going, but wasn't overwhelmingly successful. Despite the yoga, still felt a lot of back soreness toward the end.

2 hours this morning.

First hour was concentration, although I started with a short set of Metta. Did not slip effortlessly into the jhannas as I have over the past few days. In a sense this was a relief, as I felt that I was getting to the jhannas without really establishing a good base of concentration first, strange as that may seem. My concentration was very focused this time, but it never felt effortless. Some minor first jhanna stuff, warm feeling in hands, etc.

Short break for a 15 minute yoga set and coffee. Yoga is making a big difference with my body pain. First time I've made it through 2 hours without major distractions from my back or my knees.

Second hour was insight meditation. I had reread Mindfulness in Plain English over the weekend, and also went through some of the relevant sections in MCTB, so I felt much more prepared. Started focusing on the "turning point" feelings, the sensations that make me want to in/exhale as the ends of each breath. Tried to feel the feeling in advance of the idea to in/exhale, and managed to do so. The second hour flew by, the first time I can say that. The interesting thing is what effect this had on my thoughts. That is, for the first time I perceived my thoughts in the same way that I perceive the sensations. That is, I think I hit Mind and Body.

That efforting without a jhana is what leads to the brain wiring so that jhana becomes easier and easier.

Thanks, I hope so!

2 hours this morning. Both were 1/2 hour concentration + 1/2 hour mindfulness. A little distracted throughout. I think I was too focused on having attained mind and body, and didn't focus on the day-to-day work of concentration or mindfulness. Had some leg/back pain again, which the yoga during the break helped, but was still distracting.

I'll put this observation out there in case anyone reading cares to comment. Thus far, my increased meditation doesn't appear to make me a kinder or more empathetic person. Several times over the last few weeks I've found myself snapping quickly at people. I know, I know, I shouldn't expect any kind of change over an interval like "the last few weeks". I am in this for the long haul, and I understand it will take a long time to see a more actualized person. In the meantime, I really don't like seeing some of the things that have come out of my mouth/keyboard.

I hope that I'm not really more of a jerk than I was before, and that, having gotten to what I think is Knowledge of Mind and Body, I'm now nearing Knowledge of Cause and Effect, where one is supposed to feel the pain one causes more acutely. I'm already getting some of the other characteristics (robotic breathing during Vipassana).

However, maybe now that my mind is a little quicker, I'm getting sharp tongued, and less patient with the inadequacies of other people.

If anyone has experienced anything like this, I'd be interested in hearing their thoughts.

That stuff was probably already there in your mind but insight practice should bring it to the forefront. One should see the stress of thinking about the inadequacies of others and notice the relief when you let go of those thoughts into automatic senses. The comparison should help you notice which hurts more: Tensing your body and thinking obsessive thoughts on craving (or in this case aversion) and what it feels like to relax the face and body and let go of the thoughts (no matter how powerful they are). At some point the brain should find letting go more skillful and less painful. Enjoy everytime you become patient with people. Be aware of facial expressions because repression will still show how you feel on your face. People will see what your feeling even if you feel better than you look. (Something I'm still working on). Keep letting go until the refreshment is strong enough to allow relaxing of tensions and even a smile. Don't smile until the relief is there. When the relief is found the smiling should be more genuine. I find being ready for situations where tension can increase is a big help. Knowing how you feel when there are deadlines at work and everyone is stressed because emails are flying with demands that squeeze your time to complete tasks is a good example. The stress will go up because of past judgments from clients or bosses when expectations weren't met. Then when the situation appears again we should be ready to let go of the stressful thoughts even if they come up 20 times per second. You'll get more work done too.

Richard,

That's what I had suspected, and your post elaborated things very well to give me something to think about and work on. Thanks very much.

Rick

2 hours of insight practice this morning. Hour/Yoga+Coffee/Hour. First hour was wonderful. Very aware of everything going on in my body. Could feel the 5-10 beats/sec vibrations going through my body. Had the first jhanna present as well. In fact, it was the fact that I've been able to access the jhanna during insight (as opposed to concentration) practice that led me to just do pure insight practice, since I'm getting some concentration benefits as well. There were a couple of moments when I could see my senses as if they were projected onto a sphere that surrounded my head. After the break I didn't feel like I focused in as well. There were many times where I could open up to myself in that way, but I wasn't "in the zone" to the same extent. Back and knee pain showed up again in the last half hour. Tried to take the pain apart with insight, and was somewhat successful, but it was clearly a place that my thoughts were repelled from, and it took more effort.

I feel like these last three days I've been doing real insight practice for the first time. Wish I had found MCTB and this forum years ago, but maybe I wouldn't have appreciated it then. In any case, beyond grateful at the help I've received here.

Letting go is often the part of the practice that is neglected yet it's the most important part. The sooner you get good at letting go the sooner you will notice how clear your automatic senses are and find that a place to dwell (equanimity). The Dark Night is simply withdrawal symptoms of ego addiction. That's why when people have bad habits that hurt them they may still find it comfortable to continue them. Then you will have to do the hard work of breaking down the sensation of self in thoughts by paying attention to the different types of projections (images, verbal, sound, etc).

I would recommend Strength to Awaken by Rob McNamara which talks about weight training in a Zen context but has some of the best descriptions of how the ego wants homeostasis and no real growth or change. To break that down you often have to stop thinking about doing things and just do them while being in the now with your senses and thoughts. Any rumination is a sign of resistance.

I hadn't heard of that book before, but I'm interested in mindfulness in other areas like sports. I'll add it to the "to-read" list. Thanks!

2 hours this morning, split into 1 hour insight/yoga break/1 hour insight.

Much like yesterday's session. First hour was very focused. There were times when I could feel "beats" of ~5-10 times/sec. This got almost trancelike, which I understand is a distraction from the point of insight meditation. I've had the most success by focusing on the breath through the nostrils, and paying particular attention to the "turning points" and the feelings during inhale that it's time to exhale, as well as the feelings during exhale that it's time to inhale. I've been trying to separate these into body and mind sensations, but I'm not always successful. Also not sure what else I'm supposed to be sensing and noting at this point.

Second hour was more difficult, particularly the last 20 minutes. Had more luck focusing on the pain and discomfort as they arose. Am I taking too much time and focus away from the breath when I'm spending ~1 minute focusing on the pain in my leg? Found myself looking at the clock, and taking a short minute to stretch my legs or shift my position, which I really try not to do. The pain and discomfort doesn't seem to be getting any better, but neither does is appear to be getting any worse.

There were a number of instances when I could see my thoughts in front of me as they were sense doors, as described during Mind/Body of MCTB. However, these were only moments. I did feel that my focus has been much better than it has been to date. But I can't say that I've completely achieved Mind/Body. I don't have a real separation of feelings into bodily sensations and mental intentions, except in a couple of flashes.

Planning to continue with insight/noting. There are many different ways to do insight meditation. Many texts refer to the sutta that one should specifically note "in breath", "out breath", "long in breath", etc. Mindfulness in Plain English, if I remember correctly, recommends *not* specifically saying "in breath" to yourself in this way. This is noting on the order of twice per breath, or roughly once every 5 seconds. The next most common thing that I can note is my pulse in various parts of my body, which is ~1 note/sec. On occasion, I feel flashes of sensation all over my body much faster than this (5 notes/sec). To date, I have ignored them, or noted them and let them pass, at which point they have not persisted. If I stay focused on the breath, I get vibrations 5-10 notes/sec.

I'm somewhat confused as to what I should be noting. Mahasi's Progress of Insight appears to recommend the "in breath" style noting, ~1/sec. Any suggestions for where I can read about (other than MCTB, which I've already read several times, and would like another source) faster noting than this on the order of 5-10/sec? Am I just reading the wrong sections of Progress of Insight?

2 hours this morning. Much easier time of things. Both hours were 30 min concentration/30 min insight, with a short yoga break in the middle. Concentration was good, especially in the first hour, but often uneven. First jhanna arose off and on, but was unstable. I'm finding new definitions of concentration, and realizing that what I thought had been good concentration wasn't. Suppose that's the point. Both insight sessions were also good. Did slow noting, after having reread Mahasi's Progress of Insight (or at least the beginning parts), so had a better perspective on what I was supposed to be doing. Actually thought the words "in-breath", "out-breath", "pain in my butt", "pain in my knees", etc., throughout. First insight session was very focused, second less so, but, still, this was the easiest two hour sitting I've had. Adjusted my posture a bit, leaning back slightly more, which is taking some of the pain away from my knees and ankles, still feels a little weird, and I gave in a few times and tweaked my posture.

It sounds to me like you may be moving up and down through the first three ñanas (as evinced by your focus on physical pain), perhaps touching on the early stages of the 4th ñana (rapid flashes of sensations over the body).

My recommendation is that you take up choiceless noting. In other words, don't worry about what particular object you should note. Just let your mind go wherever it's going to go, but note whatever sensation predominates. Note at the rate of about one sensation per second. This practice is described here under "First Gear". This is an extremely effective practice at your current stage of practice.

You're going to have to be a little bit aggressive here. I know this contradicts what Richard said, but when you're below the A&P, this is true. You need to put in more effort to go over the top. When you start to get those flashes of sensations over your whole body, you can drop the noting at that point and merely notice those sensations as rapidly as you can. But to get up there, you're going to have to verbally note each sensation.

Thanks, FS. Today was a big step forward, in part because I worked on concentration before trying insight (seems to work better for me), and in part because I spent some time with Mahasi's Progress of Insight last night, and had a better view of slow noting. I'll also start to introduce choiceless noting as well. The last few weeks have been an incredibly blissful trip, and I'm already seeing small payoffs in my off-the-cushion life as well, so if a little bit more effort or aggressiveness is required, I'm already convinced it will be worth the trouble.

Thanks!

Well, the off-the-cushion stuff can easily get worse before it gets better. Spending a lot of time in the 3rd ñana or the 10th ñana can make one pretty irritable, even when they're not meditating. I didn't see much improvement in off-the-cushion sense of well-being until I had been meditating over a year and cleared three "paths". YMMV, but in general, I wouldn't expect too much, at least not right away.

I'll be careful. Thanks for the warning!

FS, after thinking about this for most of the day, I wanted to respond in a little bit more detail. I would be delighted, if, as you say, I'm touching on the early stages of the 4th nana. However, I want to be very skeptical with myself as I go through this process, because (1) I know that I have the tendency to want to jump ahead without getting the fundamentals down, (2) I know that it's in my capabilities to read a description of the 4th nana in MCTB and then convince myself that I'm feeling that, and (3) if I'm getting close to A&P, it means that I'm also getting close to the Dark Night, and I think that I'll have a better chance of getting through that if I'm really careful to make sure I experience and understand everything that I'm supposed to get out of the first 4 nanas.

Does this make sense? It's not that I don't want to be aggressive about getting through A&P, it's that I'm worried that I'm missing out on some of the early stages, and don't want to suffer later on for that. I find that I can't focus on my breath without being distracted for more than a few minutes. Ingram's Hierarchy of Vipassana Practice suggests that being able to stay with the object of focus for an entire session is a relatively early stage. More over, after my more careful reading of Mahasi, I've concluded that I have to really master slow noting before I start to explore the rapid sensations all over my body, if they exist at all and are not merely a projection I'm making.

In any case, thanks very much for the time you and others have spent reading about me blathering on here. My practice is going so wonderfully right now, and I'm so very grateful for everyone's help here.

There's really no "fundamentals" other than to follow the instructions exactly as they're written. Read the Progress of Insight again. Is there any place in there where Mahasi says, "Okay, to get through this next stage, apply the knowledge from the previous stage"? The path is the natural result of following the instructions and not getting sidetracked by the content, i.e., it's what unfolds when you treat everything that comes before you - no matter at what state or stage - as just more fodder for the vipassana cannon. Thinking you can somehow game the path by hanging out at lower levels longer is just one more set of sensations you need to note your way through.



Yeah, that's possible. Though I'm betting the A&P is going to look differently to you than you're expecting. Besides, you already read about it. You can't unread it.



Yeah. That's almost certainly not the case! You're not going to be able to understand and master all these stages until you've done them many, many times over the course of probably hundreds of review cycles. The task right now is not to pick up on every last detail of each ñana. The task is to master the technique and to get good at treating everything that comes up as just more sensations. That's the purpose and the strength of the noting technique.



But check out the part where he talks about choosing your object. You don't just have to stay with one thing. You're equating concentration with exclusive concentration of one thing (in this case the breath). What does Mahasi say to do if your mind wanders off the breath? He says to note where the mind just went. As long as you're noting, you're still doing the practice. If you never go back to the breath and just continue to note whatever happens to be in front of your mind, you're still doing the practice, and as a result, you're going to climb quickly through the ñanas.



I can't remember how fast or how slow Mahasi says to note, but I can tell you that noting at a rate of about 1 sensation/second is reasonable. When you approach the A&P, you're naturally going to note faster. Trying to slow it down at that point will just interrupt the flow of the progression.

One way you can understand the first four ñanas - and I've never read it described this way, but it seems to be true - is that they're in a sense embedded in one another. Mind and body arises whenever the field of experience as a whole - both subject and object - become conspicuous as phenomena. Right now, do choiceless noting as fast as you can for about 30 seconds. I guarantee you'll enter Mind and Body. People naturally enter this state all the time without doing any meditation, but they tend to pop back out and re-embed with ordinary experience, because they're not trying to stay in it. Mind and body will give you a quick, intuitive, but partial feel for anatta, because consciousness and the self pull apart a bit here. There's a slight dissociated quality to it, because you're watching your mind.

If you hang out in Mind and Body for a bit, Cause and Effect naturally follows. It's just how Mind and Body shows itself if you watch it long enough: things are interacting with other things. This gives rise to that. In fact, if you're in Mind and Body for more than a few seconds, I can't see how you can fail to notice Cause and Effect. There's a sound in the other room; a quarter of a second later there's a sensation of arousal in the chest; it's immediately followed by some mental impressions. If Mind and Body is seeing that experience is nothing other than these sorts of things, then Cause and Effect is just seeing that they interact in this fashion.

Very closely related to the this-and-that of Cause and Effect is the underlying irritation or frustration in the thing. The second ñana introduced anicca; now we've got dukkha. So there's all three characteristics now, hence the name. (Anicca and anatta "support" dukkha.) You cannot perceive the source or the totality of the dukkha, obviously. But it's evident at this point. It usually manifests as physical pain that drops away quickly once you stop meditating. But it's common to perceive temperature changes, too. A lot of this stuff is probably there in experience anyway, but because you're focusing so much on it, it's really becoming conspicuous.

But there's a phase change at the 4th ñana, like when water suddenly starts to boil. Third ñana is an aspect of the second ñana which in turn is an aspect of the first. Keeping things in the same abstract terms, 4th ñana arises when one perceives the essence of the field of experience that first arose in the 1st ñana. The full name of it in the Vissudhimagga is "Deep Insight into the Arising & Passing". And that's basically the way it feels, regardless of how differently it can manifest for different people. There's an "A-ha" moment - much bigger than the "A-ha" in 1st ñana - where all of a sudden a big chunk of the Buddha's dhamma will suddenly make sense. The anatta and anicca intensify and shrug off the dukkha, and that's why people think they're enlightened here.

Why this stage does not constitute enlightenment and why it's followed by the dark night and the further task of stream-entry is a whole nuther can of worms.

So the point you may take from my self-indulgent monologue here is that moving up and down the first three ñanas really isn't all that complicated or difficult. Your challenge here isn't to understand or master or nail down "everything". Your challenge is to comprehensively disembed from your experience, whatever it is, so that these phases naturally show up and do their thing and allow deep insight (4th ñana) to occur. This doesn't require you to keep with the breath to the exclusion of everything else for any fixed period of time. What it requires you to do is to see experience itself. One of the best ways to get this going - though it's by no means necessary nor everyone's cup of tea - is to note your ass off.

FS, once again you have given a very wise response that will take me a long time to fully digest, and have again left me in your debt. For now, let me just say "Thank You" very sincerely, and promise to start noting my ass off at every opportunity. It typically takes a few days for material like this to sink in, and I'm going to give it that time.

If there's a better site on the internet that DhO, I sure don't know of it!

Woke up in the middle of the night, got a glass of water, and sat on the sofa in the dark noting everything I could for an hour or so. It was beautiful and magical.

When I got up this morning, I was a little groggy from the missed sleep. Sat for 1:45, 30 min concentration, 30 min insight, then a break for yoga, then 45 minutes of insight. Very distracted and scattered. Tried to allow more notings per second that I had before, and was somewhat successful, but it wasn't a very good session.

Go figure, just had a really good 30 minute session after my disappointing morning session and a busy day. 15 minutes concentration, where I was quite focused, 1st jhanna, and 15 min of insight. I started out slow noting, basically "in breath", "out breath", then I started noticing my pulse, so it was "in", "pulse", "in", "turn", "out", "pulse", "out". Then I started hearing the TV in the room next door, which normally would have frustrated me, but this time it was just another source of sound, so it was "in", "pulse", "sound", "pulse", "stomach", "out", "pulse", "back", "sound". This was quite successful and nice. What killed me is that I was not totally successful in displaying my thoughts in the same way. Sometimes I could catch my thoughts quickly enough to see them as "thought", "plan", "log", but sometimes I found myself several seconds into "I can't wait to write about my noting on my DhO log, won't the guys be impressed", before I caught myself with a "um, scratch that, thought" noting.

FS, quick questions:

(1) There are four things to note: bodily sensations, feeling/tone, mind-states, and thoughts. Do I first focus on noting bodily sensations, then, after that is going well, switch to evaluating the feeling and tone as "pleasant", "unpleasant", etc. It seems like I can't do both at the same time: I'm either noting it as "knee" or "unpleasant", but maybe I just need to broaden my understanding. Similarly when I get to thoughts: as I go from noting bodily sensations to thoughts, it seems I can either note it as "pain in knee" (maybe just "knee") or "awareness of a feeling".

(2) Do I still name every noting event, even as they start coming quickly? I'm already at a point when I they start to come too fast to name. Instead of giving them all a "beep" name or something, I've taken to "touching" the thought with my mind, like I'm pointing at it. Is this good, or should I take care to actually give everything a name?

Thanks!

2 hours this morning.

30min concentration followed by 30 min of insight. Both were fairly focused. I'm still not noting all of my thoughts until I realize I have been singing a song to myself, or telling someone about practice in my head, and several seconds have gone by.

Short break for yoga & coffee.

60 minutes of insight, noting. Mostly kept with slow noting, using words for in-breath, out-breath, etc. I found that when I was noting without words ("hitting with my mind") I was more likely to get distracted. Knee and back pain during much of this session. Sensual thoughts as well. Both the pain and the sensuality were distracting. Toward the end of the hour I got better at noting the sensuality early enough that it didn't develop further.

Don't know that I feel any closer to A&P. There were 3 times in the period where a sensation developed where there was a truly novel sensation. I felt that I could see through my eyelids twice, and another feeling arose that felt wonderful an very different from anything I've felt.

Only a few times did I get a real race of notings faster than 1/sec.

No. The way this works is that you don't consciously choose any object. You just note whatever happens to be in front of your mind at that moment. So if the first thing you notice is a mental image, you mentally note "mental image". Then if there's a sound, "hearing". Then if there's an itch, "itching" or "feeling". Etc.



Don't note "knee". That's content. Note the sensation, in this case "feeling" or "pressure" or "aching" or however the knee manifests itself.



Either "pain ... unpleasant" or "feeling" would be fine.



That's good. "Beep" is fine or just noticing ("mentally touching" as you say). If you become sidetracked by fantasy or daydreaming or whatever, just go back to noting until the mind gets more precise again.

I used to do this practice in a hierarchy. The ideal was to clearly perceive, without the intermediary of concepts, the mere arising and passing of sensations in real-time. If I couldn’t do that, I’d offer a “beep” for every sensation I noticed. If I couldn’t do that, I’d mentally note whatever sensation was passing through consciousness. If I couldn’t do that, I’d note out loud. And if even noting out loud was a problem, I’d do slower, more detailed noting.

Getting a feel for how to note - i.e., which part of this hierarchy you want to work in - is part of mastering the technique.

Fitter, I'll give this a try, it makes perfect sense. Thanks for this and all the other great advice!

Fitter Stoke's patient answers to my questions have made me realize I may have been pushing my focus too much during my insight practice. Tried to relax and open up a little bit more to the experiences that really were presenting themselves to me. Seems to be more fun, if nothing else.

2 hours again this morning. First hour of 30 min concentration/ 30 min insight. Followed by Yoga. Followed by an hour of insight.

I had a few minutes of very fast sensing, but only a few. The rest was mainly slow noting, out loud. I used my breathing as a base: "feeling an in-breath", "feeling an out-breath", and then noting whatever else came up as well. Felt good almost all of the time, occasionally ecstatic. Mind wandered off a few times without my noting it, but was able to bring it back fairly quickly. Couple flashes of lights, but nothing like the way Mahasi describes A&P.

On FS's recommendation, I tried to feel the beginning, middle, and end of each feeling, when they came slowly enough to do so. I also noticed how nice the out-breath was, and how I could ride that down to a deeper state, something I've used to put myself to sleep for decades. But here it didn't put me to sleep, it just opened myself up a bit more to the feelings.

Pain developed in my knees and back, particularly in the last 15 minutes. One of the differences was that I didn't rush back to the breath, like the pain was a distraction, but I spent some time really noting what sensations composed the pain in, say, my right knee. Very interesting and oddly nice to do this. Even with the pain, I was sad to see the bell chime at the end of the second hour, but some of the good feelings have persisted.

I mentioned earlier that I was seeing positive effects on the rest of my life, and Fitter Stoke commented that he wouldn't expect to see these until much later on the path. Wanted to elaborate a little bit more. I have this "buzz" of good feelings in me almost all the time now, that are accompanied with the most profound feelings of gratitude for my life, my wife and son, my job, my practice, and the patient help that people have given me here. Obviously this doesn't happen all the time, but it happens enough that I've been much more patient and kind with my wife, and much less likely to snap at her. In some ways, this is a reaction to something I posted even earlier, when I was a little horrified at seeing myself act like a jerk to other people. With a little bit more perspective, it might be that (1) I realized that I didn't like seeing myself cause pain, and (2) it was entirely in my powers to simply not do that. By no means am I claiming to be a saint, only that I'm a small step closer to being a better person. And I've been warned that I might revert to my selfish ways as I progress a little farther along.

Still waiting for "Practical Insight Meditation" from BPS. Although, having taken KFD's surfing metaphor a bit more to heart, I'm trying to actually sense/note more, and read less. Maybe.

Along these lines, there is one other thing I wanted to get down here, because I would welcome anyone's thoughts on it. When I first found this site, I really cut everything out of my life except meditation, reading the Dharma, and work/family responsibilities. I was aware of Ingram's comments that renunciation of everything wasn't necessary if one was mindful of the effect pleasures had (can't find the citation for this right now), but I simply wanted to immerse myself in the practice. I've gone back a little bit. In order to fit 2 hours of daily meditation into my life, I've had to give up a great deal of web surfing, TV, and other things that were, honestly, just a waste of time. I find I'd rather read DhO than look for stupid stories on the net anyway. However, I've slowly introduced some of the things I really enjoyed, like reading fiction or listening to music. I have less patience for both of these, because, in some ways, it takes me away from time I could be noting. But I'm not a monk, and I have to make my way in a world full of people and beauty in it, and one of the things I enjoy most is books and music. This has made my practice a bit harder -- I find my mind drifting to something I've read or heard -- but I just try to note it and move on.

Only had time for 1 hour this morning. I'll try to spread another hour throughout the day. 15 min concentration, 45 min insight.

I still think I'm missing the point of insight meditation. I diligently did the noting, and tried a few variations of it, like "shooting aliens"/beep-ing. Other than in a few instants, am not feeling profound states develop. I've read all of the relevant descriptions of what I'm supposed to be doing, but I understand them only on an intellectual and not an intuitive level. I'm not discouraged, I just don't understand. I realize there's nothing to be done but to spend as much time on the cushion as possible.

One hour (30 min concentration, 30 min insight), short yoga/coffee break, then 40 min of insight practice this morning.

Concentration was simply not there at all. No idea why not. Am thinking about reading "Beyond Mindfulness" to get another perspective on jhanna training (although Ian's posts on jhannas are awesome). My concentration training is lagging behind my mindfulness right now. Alternatively, I may just switch over to pure insight training, and then take a break at some time in the future when I feel I've plateaued and focus on only concentration for a while.

Insight practice was strange and wonderful. I think I'm seeing some of the signs of A&P. Seeing through the eyelid sensation several times, and I think I'm experiencing what people describe as bright lights, and these were associated with a cold-ish fresh feeling. Strong sensual feelings toward the end, which became rather distracting.

The one sign of A&P that is *not* happening is perhaps the most important one: the increase in the frequency of my notings. I think this is just because it's all rather new to me, and I just need to spend more time on the cushion.

90 minutes of insight practice with a short yoga break in the middle. No fireworks or big signs of A&P today, other than a few instances of seeming to see through my eyelids and maybe one flash. I'm just feeling my way around insight practice, still, going over sections of Mahasi's books, and trying to tune things so that I'm paying attention and noting properly, and I'm still figuring it out. I'll be frustrated if I'm still in the same place two months from now, but I feel like things are going in the right direction.

Two hours of sitting this morning, with a break in the middle for yoga stretching. Both were 15 min concentration/45 min insight.

Concentration was unusually focused, but seemed to wander whenever I tried to focus on the first jhanna.

Insight practice was all over the place. Toward the end, started "beep" noting things more rapidly, and that seemed to be more effective. Perhaps I've been forcing myself to note things too slowly.

Still figuring it all out, but having a nice time.

Two hours of sitting: 30 min concentration + 30 min insight, then a yoga break, then 60 min insight.

Had a nice insight that I'd like to share, although I imagine that everyone reading had this one long ago. In the second hour, I was breathing, and I could suddenly feel the difference between the in-breath, and the me/watcher/self/whatever. I spent quite a while, where on the inbreath I would feel the breath, and on the outbreath I would feel my "self", and I could note the difference between the two. I could feel the "self" as a feeling that had a beginning/middle/end. The in/self breathing was useful, because it allowed me to see again and again my self arising and passing away. When my legs were hurting, I could much better investigate the pain and see what made it up, because my "self" wasn't in the way, and thus the pain wasn't as scary, because there wasn't anyone there to be scared. At the very end, I started to explore the "self" feeling, at which point I felt it spread all over me, and become like a jhana feeling.

I know this is basic stuff for all of you guys, but it was pretty wonderful. I feel like I've taken my first real step.

Two hours sitting this morning, with a break in the middle for yoga stretching. Each hour was 30 min concentration and 30 min insight.

My concentration was particularly good this morning. I was able to really stay with the breath. Wasn't entirely successful sustaining jhanas when they arose; every time I tried to shift them to the object of my focus, I ended drifting off, and finally compromised by staying with the breath, but watching the jhanas out of the corner of my eye, if that makes sense.

Did rapid noting for my insight practice, and was sensing things ~5 times/sec. Didn't really get anywhere with this, or have any huge breakthroughs, although I realize, of course, that "getting somewhere" isn't the point. But was fairly successful with staying with the noting. Noticed that my (ahem) sensual thoughts got worse when my pain got worse, so maybe my mind (or whatever) was trying to get me to quit and do something else.

Was gratified to see the concentration go so well, since I felt that this practice was lagging behind my insight. Also did a great metta set to start out, and had a jhana arise doing metta for the first time.

2 hours this morning. Each hour split 30 min concentration, 30 min Mahasi noting. Short break in the middle for yoga.

First hour mind was focused during both parts. Concentration was less focused in the second hour, with few jhana moments arising. Toward the end of both hours, and especially the second, lots of pain in my knees. Really made an effort to stay with the pain, to dive into it and take it apart, to be mindful of it. Was very difficult, and I could see my mind running off into anything else. Started getting a lot of sensual feelings again, which I interpret as another trick of my mind to get me to stop sitting. Managed to sit for the entire duration, but the pain never got easier to take, and, at one point, I stretched my legs out.

Started again with a short metta set, which was again very nice. I find that I enjoy that practice more and more, and find more places to send my metta.

Only had time for an hour this morning, but this was by far the best hour of meditation of my life.

Again, split 30/30 concentration-jhana and insight. As I've been doing for the past few days, I started out doing metta, which I've really been enjoying. The first jhana developed fairly quickly. When I switched over to concentration, I noticed that I could fuel the jhana by sending it metta. Whenever I found that the first jhana was fading, I could just send it some more metta, and it would strengthen. I started thinking of the concentration being the kindling and the fuel of a fire, and the metta being like blowing on the flames. It was truly beautiful, and having something this profound to come back to kept my mind focused.

I really did not want to leave the jhana when the bell chimed and it was time to start insight, so I tried using the jhana as the object of my insight practice, something that I've never been able to do successfully. Whenever I've started noting in the past, my jhana feelings have dissolved. And, indeed, my noting wasn't as quick or as frequent as it has been, but the jhana presence made it much easier to stay present. Knee pain wasn't as bad this time, but, then, I only sat for an hour. I also noticed that I could avoid getting lost in sensual feelings by sending them metta. Saved a huge amount of time this way -- every time I found myself drifting off into some perverse fantasy, I could just send that metta and I was back again. Clearly I still need to figure out how to be more aware and to note more effectively, but I feel as if I'm off to a good start.

In a sense, I saw how the eightfold path leads to enlightenment. I had always seen this relationship as being metaphoric. However, in retrospect, one of the first times in recent weeks that I felt the first jhana was in reading Ian And's articles about them, and it was as if the right intention to pursue meditation and the jhanas was rewarded with the jhana itself. And, today, it was as if the right attitude that the metta gave me led to the jhana feeling. Not metaphoric at all, but very causal.

90 minutes this morning. 30 min concentration (mindfulness of breath), starting with some metta, 30 min Mahasi-style noting, short break for yoga, then another 30 min noting.

Concentration was good, although perhaps not as blissful as yesterday's session was. Like yesterday, the metta made everything a little nicer. The first samatha jhana came fairly readily. Today, however, I find my mind drifting off of it, as if I was getting tired of it. If I remember correctly, there's something on this in Ian And's posting on the jhanas, and I plan to reread these to see if I'm supposed to use this to make the second samatha jhana arise at this point.

The two noting sessions were scattered. I'd be noting in breath, out breath, hearing, feeling a pain, and then it would be a minute later and my mind had been off thinking about something I was going to be doing, without my noting its departure. So I dutifully brought it back, noted, noted, and then a minute later I realized I was gone again.

90 minutes this morning. 60 min metta/concentration/jhana, then a short break for yoga and coffee, then 30 min of insight.

First jhana arose quickly again, during metta. Was fairly successful maintaining the jhana, although my mind wandered enough at some points that I had to restart. Interestingly, metta was more effective to restart the jhana than just mindfulness of breathing. During the insight/noting practice I really tried to note the difference between the intention to breath and the movement of the breath, and to sense the beginning/middle/end of each.

One hour of concentration/jhana practice. Short break for yoga. Another hour of insight/noting practice. Both periods started with metta.

During the first hour, the first jhana arose pretty soon after starting, and was pretty solid for the first half hour. During the second half hour, my mind would wander and it would disappear. I would then make sure my concentration was good again, and then try to send it some metta, and the jhana would come back. I noticed it slightly different when it did. My best jhanas have been warm and spherical. This was more oblong.

Noting was good at the start of the second hour, but deteriorated as my knees started to hurt more. Tried to just be aware of the discomfort (which wasn't all *that* bad), but was only somewhat successful. Had a few moments during this period of "seeing through my eyelids". Toward the end I resorted to counting breaths to finish the period. Was hoping that my body would be used to sitting for this duration by now, and that I wouldn't have to constantly deal with the knee pain toward the end of my second hour. One of the reasons I've been doing yoga during my breaks it to build up strength to sit longer, and this has been somewhat, but not completely, successful.

Not certain which nanas I was in during the second hour. Seems like first and second. There were times when I was starting to note pretty quickly, several times per second, so maybe touching the third. But certainly no profound A&P event.

Two hours again. One hour concentration/jhana, short break for yoga, one hour insight noting.

Mind was scattered. A nice opportunity came up at work, and I spent too much of my sitting time dreaming about it. Jhanas arose and went away as quickly. Managed to get settled down in the second hour. For once, the noting was the best part of the practice, and I was pretty effective noting and staying with feelings as they came and went.

One hour before bed, all Mahasi-style noting. I think I was in the A&P almost the whole time. What an amazing feeling. Started out with nothing spectacular, slow noting. Started noticing how my pulse interrupts my breathing. Sometime shortly thereafter I had these feelings rippling and sparkling all over my body. It was surprisingly easy to maintain them as well. I would start getting pretty intense sensual feelings, but it just added to the rapid fire of things that I was noting, and, if anything, enhanced the experience rather than being a distraction. Even when I started getting knee and back pains, it was just something more to note. The fact that there were so many sensations going on gave me something else to do other than dwell on the pain. I would not it, and then let myself note any of the 100's of other things going on. Even when I started thinking about how I would log this, it was just something else to note, although I hope to be a little quicker at picking up on the fact that I'm having these thoughts. For almost all of the time the noting was random, but there was a short period where it cohered into waves moving up and down my body which was almost overwhelming. Then it went away and I had the random-like notings for the duration of the hour.

Don't know whether this is "the A&P event" that everyone talks about; I suspect not, but I don't really care if I can be in a place like this.

Two hours this morning. One hour concentration/jhanas, short break for yoga, one hour insight/noting.

Still a little distracted during the concentration practice, and couldn't really maintain the first jhana when it arose. Tried to really concentrate on the sensation of the breath, but still feel like I was holding a part of my mind out of the process, and thus wasn't focusing everything on the breath.

Rapid noting again during the insight practice, but neither as rapid nor as ecstatic as last night's session.

Almost two hours this morning, but got interrupted by a sick child toward the end. One hour concentration, on hour noting. Neither was particularly focused or profound. I started questioning everything, like "is what I'm feeling as a jhana really a jhana?" or "am I really doing rapid noting correctly, or am I just convincing myself that I am?" Didn't lead to the best session, but I did my best to stick with things, to direct bare awareness at what I was feeling, and to learn what I could.

Have to catch an early flight, so only 30 min this morning, just noting. Planning to get some more time in on the plane flights today.

Spent much of the last 24 hours on planes. Not as conducive to meditation as I has hoped. I thought it might be like a mini retreat, but I ended up falling asleep when I was trying to meditate, and meditating when I wanted to sleep. I thi k I benefitted more from the sections of MCTB that I retread than any meditating I did.

Still in Europe. Had planned to wake early every day and meditate, but I've been so jet-lagged that I end up waking up at 2am and meditating for a while to get back to sleep. Have not been keeping up my 2 hrs/day pace, but I've made 45-60 min, and some of it has been pretty good, though no real breakthroughs or attainments. Got some good time re-reading MCTB on the train today as well.

Home at last. Nice 2 hour session (no break in the middle). Started with metta, then one hour concentration/jhanna, one hour noting. Both were quite good, but both took a little while to get into. About halfway through the concentration part the first jhanna arose again, and was quite strong and very nice. Started to fade a bit toward the end; I think I was having trouble keeping with it as the object of meditation. Nothing to suggest that any deepening is happening or any other jhannas are arising at this point.

I think I'm finally getting the hang of noting practice. Once I got going, I could note many things without attachment. I think I finally see why this can be an effective practice. A long way from the 5-15 notes/sec that MCTB sets as a goal, more like 1-5, but they were a good 1-5 this time, and I could see very quickly when I was getting attached to the sensations. For the first time I understood how one can understand the three characteristics in a practice like this. It still feels new to me, but I could see sensations arise and fall, could feel myself wanting to hang onto some of them, and to avoid others, and it was very clear when the "self" sensation arose (mostly when I wasn't paying attention anymore).

Nice to be home!

90 minutes this morning. Metta, then 30 concentration/jhanna, 60 min noting. No big breakthroughs this morning, it always seems like I follow up a big step forward with a rather ho-hum session, maybe I'm just over adjusting my expectations.

This is the first time i have ever responded to someone else's practice log Rick,so forgive any mistakes. I was reading down your interesting line and the fact you keep speaking of your yoga break between hourly sits. Are you a yoga adept as well or are they an easy set of simple exercises, suitable for a 60 year old that wants to reduce time lapse between sits??? Care to share?

I'm currently doing 4 hours a day but scattered in an unstructured way. Would like to close up to two sits of two as i think i could see improvement in depth of concentration. I am about to "go" the Vipassana road myself and your thoughts have provoked me in several directions, Many thanks my friend. I will keep reading of your exploits with anticipation Rick. Much Metta, Stu.

Stuart,

Definitely not an expert. Took some Bikram Yoga classes years ago. When I discovered this site, I ended up changing from sitting 30 minutes a day, to roughly 2 hours a day, which took a toll on my body. I remember reading somewhere that Yoga was invented by Hindu meditators who wanted to be able to sit for longer amounts of time without a break, and I thought it was a good excuse to dust off the yoga exercises.

There isn't anything special about the Bikram exercises, it's just a cycle of 26 poses. (Disclaimer: Bikram himself would say that there definitely is something special about the cycle!) I think it's good to do a prescribed cycle, rather than just some random stretches, since you end up having to do the stretches that you don't want to do in addition to the ones you want to do, and the ones that you don't want to do are probably the ones that you need to do.

Bikram yoga is supposed to be done in a hot room, and it's supposed to take 90 minutes to go through all of the poses twice. I don't do it in a hot room, and I only go through the poses once, for about half as long as I should, since I'm still getting limber, so it takes about 20 minutes, which, honestly, is about all the time I want to spend stretching in a day anyway.

Yesterday I was able to sit for 2 hours without stopping for the first time, so I think I'm getting more limber, but I still experience a lot of pain in my knees during longer sessions.

I think you can probably find a variety of yoga classes in your area, and probably any of them would help you sit for longer.

Best of luck!

Ended up being awake all night, due to anxiety about grant proposals. Had ample time to meditate while I lay awake in bed. Got perhaps 90 minutes in, and then decided to sleep as late as possible to try to be ready for the day. Did noting practice, with a few fairly intense intervals. Mostly noting the combination of my pulse and my breath. At times the noting got rapid, and I felt my pulse in many different parts of my body, even during the same beat. Occasionally noted muscle spasms and stray thoughts as well. Was fairly aware of my attention swinging from breath to pulse to thoughts, etc. That awareness was the primary aspect of whatever three characteristics I noted during the 2-3 times I "sat".

90 minutes this morning: Metta, then 30 min concentration, then 60 min insight/noting. Am now able to sit without having to have a yoga break in the middle, so I do that before/after.

Rather scattered in both sessions. First jhanna arose during the concentration session despite this, but wandered off several times into thoughts of buying a wristwatch, of all things. Managed to bring myself back for a few meaningful minutes. Noting practice went a little better, but still had times where I realized my mind had been off thinking of something for the last 15 seconds. Noting is getting better, although it still seems to be some manifestation of my breath or my pulse that I note 19/20 times. Not yet at 5-10 notes/min. Sprinkled in some slower noting when I wanted to change things up.

Trying to get back in the habit of 10 minute mini-sessions during the work day, which helps remind me of what matters in the midst of it all.

90 minutes this morning, 45 concentration and 45 noting. Very scattered. Didn't really get anywhere this morning. Don't know what's up. Mind was off to grant proposals and meetings and I couldn't settle down.

I feel like I'm moving backwards. I've been concerned about numbness in my feet, so I've tried seated meditation over the last two days. Not going all that well. Everything is different, and I'm having a hard time getting my bearings again. I've also tried lying down meditation, but I typically just fall asleep. But even before the change of position, I feel like I'm not progressing as much as I'd like.

I wonder if I passed A&P a few weeks ago and am now in the Dark Night. I was reading through the descriptions of the A&P that are in Ingram's post on A&P Phenomenology, and I was experiencing many of these before my trip to France, particularly the ones that Tommy M talks about in Physical and Mental Phenomena.

If I passed through A&P already, I'm not sure it means anything about my daily practice, since, from everything I've read, I should just keep sitting and noting as much as possible.

I'd be grateful for anyone's thoughts.

--

Later.

Watching Dan Ingram's Cheetah House talks. This really looks like how he is describing Dissolution. Nice to have a map, I guess.

Two hours of noting this morning, with a short yoga break in the middle. Much better experience than I had been having with the chair sitting: Was able to go through the first 4 nanas with some degree of clarity. Toward the end, I was either in dissolution, or just losing my focus. For the first hour I had rapid noting going fairly well, maybe 4x/sec. Had a harder time keeping this up in the second hour. When my mind started to wander, I found that slow noting with words was better (i.e. helped me keep my focus) than the "touching with mind" that I do when I rapidly note. About 3/4 through Ingram's Cheetah House talks, which have been helpful.

1:45 session noting this morning. Lying down and chair sitting, since my right foot is still numb and I want to see whether it recovers before returning to half lotus. Lying down is so seductive, but I always fall asleep. I should just give up on it, but I always think "maybe if I just prop myself up like so I won't fall asleep", and then wake when the 15 minute bell chimes. Much better luck sitting. Could feel myself go through nanas 1-4, and then got stuck in dissolution. Feels a lot like depression. Didn't know what to do, so I just tried to sit with the feelings as they disappeared. Tried to note the sensations that I could be aware of, but I kept on just wanting to stop. Not a lot of fun.

1:30 noting session, with a short break in the middle for yoga. Much like yesterday. Could clearly sense the first four nanas, and arrived in the 5th nana before the 15 minute chime rang. Wasn't as tedious today as it was yesterday. I just felt inept yesterday, like I couldn't keep my focus at all. Today I felt like a samatha jhana arose during this period. My noting wasn't any better, but there was a warm feeling of peace that suffused me during this period. I'll post a separate message on this in one of the other discussion boards, but I wonder what, in particular, I'm should be doing to move through the dark night stages. My recollection is that I should just keep noting as carefully as I can. But I'm curious as to what has worked for other people.

(Missed a couple of days: yesterday and the day before were much like today).

2 hours of noting, short break in the middle for Yoga and Coffee.

Could again see myself moving through nanas 1-4 to nana 5. Today wasn't as distinct as it had been, but I was well aware when I was in dissolution, which happened before the first 15 minute chime. It is hard to force myself to note when I'm in dissolution. I find that going to slow noting with words often serves as a good framework for me here, rather than fast noting with "mental touching". When I could keep myself on the noting path, dissolution wasn't as bad I had feared. The noting practice itself is actually quite nice. Trying my best to see the 3 characteristics while I'm here. I have a much easier time with impermanence and suffering than with no-self, which is probably why I'm still in dissolution. I became particularly easy to distract during the last 30 minutes. Tried to keep on bringing myself back to noting. Never did get noting going as fast as it had been during A&P.

Took yesterday off, other than a few 10 minute sessions here and there.

90 minutes this morning, with the usual yoga break in the middle. Once again, progressed rapidly through nanas 1-4, and into the 5th nana. As before, I was surprised by the fact that there were some pleasant jhana-like sensations that arose as I tried to focus on my breath more particularly in the 5th nana.

After about 30 minutes, I felt fear start to develop, first only at the bottom of my breath, then over more of my body. So I think I'm in the 6th nana now. After the break I was able to rather quickly pick up in fear where I was before.

Starting to understand no-self a little bit better, as well as the other characteristics.

80 minutes this morning, with a short break in the middle for yoga.

Unlike the last week's sittings, where I could distinctly feel nanas 1-4 forming, I seemed to fall into A&P almost immediately upon sitting down. It felt like I fell down a dark elevator shaft and was then wrapped in a jhanic blanket. This feeling persisted for almost 30 minutes. For the rest of the session, I felt like I was bouncing between A&P and dissolution, although the dissolution I felt today didn't feel as empty as it did yesterday. Other than I few minutes, I didn't sense nana 6/fear forming, so maybe I was deluding myself yesterday.

Struggled the whole time with self/no-self. I've mentioned this before in my log, that I can more easily comprehend impermanence and suffering than I can no-self. My struggles today made me realize that I have a watcher forming in part of my mind, that I'm failing to note, and that there are hundreds of thoughts, wry comments, songs, etc., that the watcher offers up that I also fail to note. When I would carefully look at the feeling of self that was present, I could dissect it into a feeling on the tops of my eyelids, and a feeling on the skin of my scalp, and a dozen or so thoughts. I spent most of the last hour trying to note the formation of the watcher, or some of the un-noted thoughts that are arising, mostly without luck. I would do fine for a while, and then I would realize that for the last minute I had been thinking about what I would write here as a report, for example, without having noted when my mind left my breathing.

Some of this is reassuring: I've known that there was something keeping me from noting quickly, and I've known that there was some feeling of self that was a little too permanent, and this is clearly related to both. However, unlike in the movies, realizing this doesn't instantly move me beyond it. Even knowing that I have all of these un-noted thoughts isn't immediately helping me note them.

Breath by breath, I guess.

2 hours this morning, with a short break in the middle.

Spent most of my time noting as rapidly as possible. Again felt myself move quickly through nanas 1-4. Stayed in 4 a little longer, I think, but moved into dissolution by 15 minutes. Felt myself move briefly into fear, but I had to go looking for it, and I don't know whether it would have arisen on its own.

Did fast noting because of my observations yesterday that the fact I'm having trouble with no-self is the result of many un-noted thoughts, and my intention is to learn how to note faster to catch more of these. After the first 15 minutes, I spent most of the rest of the time "shooting aliens", beeping every time I sensed something arise. There were moments where this worked well, and times it didn't work at all. Tried switching to "mentally touching" sensations as they arose, and even back to more slow noting, but, in general, these were less successful in catching every thought. After around 90 minutes I started to lose my ability to do much of anything: my back hurt and my mind was wandering. Managed to hold to try to get something out of the last half hour, but in the end I think persistance was the only thing I gained.

Hi Rick,


If it were me, I would not switch forms (such as from noting to "mentally touching" sensations). Part of the work of any form is to follow a natural flow of a) attraction to form, b) practice of the form, c) proficiency/advocacy of the form, d) exhaustion/failure/inadequacy/dukkha of the form appears, e) aversion to the form, f) practice/balanced view of the form/ability to take up other forms with equanimity.

Noting is escalating to exhaust the assuming mind so that mind can just stop on its own. A kind of athletic catharsis for the mind. As you've seen a type of witness also arises with this; while the mind is training in noting, it is also strengthening itself in that mode of concentration --- it's getting better and better at noting, and thus mind's own exhaustion is also being re-set at a higher and higher bar. Will the exhaustion and cessation happen? Yes, but until then it can be hard to know if that awareness is just awareness or if it is becoming a kind of protective shell of strong concentration which is actually forming a stronger sense of self. This is one practice time/area that conceit and its twin, alienation, can take deep root: not completing this process through to cessation -- when the practice (form) has become so gap-less that the "me" mind does just drop.

So when the urge and action of "switching" arises in the mind, it just like in yoga when the mind advises, "Okay, let's stop now." When in actuality, that's just the muscles spindle and golgi tendon complex talking the brain; we can relax, breath and stay in the stretch; then the myotactic shaking response happens and there is more urge to switch; finally maybe 20 long breaths after the urge to switch postures first arises as a thought, the body relaxes. Now we have some yuj, yoga happening.

If you DO switch form at this point, I think "just sitting" would be useful for you. Just set that timer for whatever (sounds like 90-minutes is very useful right now to you) and abide. It can take a while for the noting voice to drop away. BUT, it reads like you've worked hard in noting and if I were you I'd keep that up, but be very clear to stay gentle with yourself while also making the effort to stick with noting. Noting is just like bringing the mind back to the breath in anapanasati; it is just another form (practice) in appearance.

Katy,

Thanks for the comment. I'm not such an expert on noting, but most people consider fast noting, "shooting aliens", slow noting, and mentally touching as all slight variations of the same practice of Mahasi-style noting. My intention in moving from one to the other isn't so much to switch, but to find a slightly different rate of noting that is more effective given the way my mind is responding to the meditation.

I got some good advice from Fitter Stoke in a comment he left here on 1/23/13:



I'm not quite getting there, but I'm trying to make small adjustments and see if I can get noting working a little bit better, and I feel that I'm close. But maybe I'll give "just sitting" a try again, although I put years into doing that without really getting anywhere.

Another 2 hour session this morning, with a short break in the middle. During the first 15 minutes I felt nanas 1-5 arise fairly distinctly, as usual. Right around the 15 minute chime I had a very warm feeling like a jhana that continued for the next 15 minutes. I made special effort throughout to note the "watcher" or the "thinking mind" arise in reaction to my sensations.

Had something of a realization here: one of the reasons I'm having such a hard time understanding no-self is that I'm getting caught up in the content of my sensations rather than just observing them as sensations. I'm clinging to them, analyzing them, evaluating them as "good" or "bad", rather than just noting them. In fact, I'm getting all caught up in good/bad distinctions: noting the breath is good, noting my pulse is good, thinking without being noted is bad, thinking, even with being noted, is less good than noting the breath. From what I've read, this is not really the point of noting practice, but I'm having a hard time turning off my evaluative mind.

After the break I never really got things going again. I might as well have been watching TV for all of the good it did me. Kept on trying to note something, anything, but I kept on wandering off into thoughts and content.

HI Rick,
Ah, excellent. That you know for yourself is really best. Thanks for sharing your practice and your feedback on my own thoughts.

90 minutes this morning, no break in the middle. Trying to vary things slightly to see what works best for me. Turns out that the break really has been a good thing.

Did rapid noting, and I think I got into the 5-10 notes/sec range for the first time. I tried to be extra careful at not(ic)ing when I was getting into the content of the thoughts. Helped a bit. Felt like I was in nanas 8-9 (Disgust, Desire for Deliverance), which was something of a surprise since I didn't really spend much time in Fear or Misery. However, looking back on the past two weeks, I may have mistaken some of the phenomena I interpreted at the time as workplace stress and guilt over some situations poorly handled might have been Fear/Misery. Hard to say, really.

For most of the past week or so, I've felt nanas 1-4 arise very distinctly. This didn't happen today: I felt like I was in nana 1&2 for a minute, then nana 4 for another minute, then Dissolution. Never felt Fear today.

The vibrations I'm feeling are not particularly focused, although when Ingram describes "mosquitos buzzing in one's ears" or "chaotic vibrations around the periphery" that starts to capture what I'm feeling. It is hard, however, to distinguish between, say Disgust, and just doing a bad job of meditating.

I think I know what I'm supposed to be doing, though: note as much of my sensations as possible, and sit as much as possible. For all of the miserable things people say about the Dark Night, and for as crummy as I felt last week, I feel like I'm getting off easy compared to what some people go through. Who knows, though, Reobservation may kick my ass.

Comments welcome.

Haha. I enjoy reading your posts. Thanks for sharing some of your trials and tribulations.

I've felt like I've gotten off fairly easily in terms of the dark night experience, too. In my case, though, I think it's that I've had practice dealing with the symptoms particularly in my teen years. I don't know how much of it was actual-PMS/nutty hormones and how much of it was actual-Dark Night. I suspect that the two conditions are twins, if not close cousins.

In regards to the no-self bit, I feel like that's been the hardest of the Three Characteristics for me to directly observe too. I worry that I'm still somewhat caught up in the "I". Whereas, impermanence and suffering are much easier for me to recognize- those two make more sense intuitively to me. I'm guessing that later samatha jhanas (4-8) will help with that (experiencing the formless realms). I haven't yet reached that stage of practice, though.

Anyhow, good luck with your progress!

Two hours this morning, short break in the middle. Noting getting better and going faster. Started to experience persistent vibrations today for much of this time, maybe 5-8 Hz. Felt like I sat down and was in Dissolution, although maybe I was just scattered. By the 15 min chime I was well into the fluttering of sensations around my periphery. After another roughly 15 minutes, everything got more focus and I started to feel the vibrations, which continued for most of the rest of the morning's session, but would sometimes disappear for minutes (?) at a time. The focus was interesting. I'm pretty sure it wasn't A&P, since it was more distracting, but it was the most intense feelings I've had since the A&P crossing. Lost track of time, and had a real absorption feeling that I haven't felt since then. I was distracted, but I was very aware of the distraction, if that makes any sense. Not sure where this places me: the focus keeps me from thinking it was the Disgust or the Desire for Deliverance that I was feeling yesterday.

No-self is getting better as well. I'm able to see "the watcher" as not being myself. Hard to explain, I just don't identify with that anymore. However, that's not to say that I'm all that much better at not getting lost in thoughts, which is still happening. But I think I'm catching it a little sooner, and I'm resisting the urge to punish myself afterwards.

Thanks for listening. Comments welcome.

Two hours this morning. Very different from what had been happening before, though.

The session started as usual, with noting my breath, and the various sensations. During the last few days, I've started to be able to note many more sensations per second, as well as being aware of very fast vibrations. What was different today is that my whole body started to shake with the vibrations. Really started to shake, like I was having convulsions. These vibrations kept up during almost all of each of the one hour periods. I could stop them if I wanted to, but I thought it was something to explore. It was the strongest reactions I've had to meditation, perhaps ever, but certainly since the A&P event. There were times when the convulsions would stop for a minute, and I would be empty, and then they would start up again, either with a different frequency, or with different parts of my body shaking. Sometimes I wonder whether I'm really experiencing what I think I'm experiencing during meditation, or whether I'm just projecting my own desires for progress and following the scripts I read in MCTB; however, it was clear in this case that something very interesting was, in fact, happening.

I'm not sure where this puts me on the map; I don't know that it matters. There were certain elements of Fear present, MCTB talking about Fear being a bit rapturous like riding a roller coaster at night, although I didn't feel the dread associated with it, it was fascinating more than anything else. And there were aspects of Desire for Deliverance as well; certainly got tedious into the second hour of convulsions. I recall reading something in MCTB about "vibrations being fine when it was just the object of meditation that was vibrating, but not when it's the whole body", but I just looked and couldn't find it.

I'd be really interested in hearing anyone's thoughts on where this puts me. Not sure that it matters, since I'm pretty sure the conclusion is going to be to continue to sit as much as possible, and to note as many sensations as possible. But a little guidance would be great. May even post a separate question if I don't hear anything.

I'm not sure where it puts you (probably in the Dark Night somewhere), but I can say that I've had some similar experiences before. Assuming you've ruled out any other physical symptoms, I'd just take it as a sign of progress.

Also, here is the part you are thinking of. From MTCB, page 184:

Thanks, Lara!

Okie dokie. I read your last four or five entries. I'm not sure "where you are" either, but part of the reason for that is the nature of your descriptions, which are at too high a level for me to really tell what's going on. This is also a strong indication to me that you might be getting lost in thoughts about practice while you're doing your practice.

Did you read my post on Throwing Away the Ladder? Regardless of where you are on the map, this is an important set of instructions to follow. The maps are helpful and can really facilitate the Can-Do attitude; however, it's super-easy to become embedded at the layer of mapping, analyzing, etc., and for that to become an obstacle to the practice. You become so focused on, "Where am I on the map? How far have I come? How much further do I have to go? How much progress have I made? Where is my fruition?" that there's not much room for insight to sink in.

So, for your own sake and for the sake of anyone who might want to give you constructive feedback, try to stay close to the level of bare phenomena. Here are some examples where you did a good job reporting:







Stuff where you're lost in thought about no-self and which ñana you're in, not so much. That's not helping you, and it's not making clear how strong your meditation is.

Also, I would strongly suggest finding a teacher or mentor, someone to work with you one-on-one. If you can't do that, you can continue to do like you're doing, though you should keep in mind that the kind of feedback you're going to get from random people on the internet is liable to be highly variable in terms of quality. But there really is nothing like working with someone who has already gotten the thing done and who can tell you where to put your focus, energy, attention vs. what to ignore and let go.

Good luck, and let me know how it goes.

90 minutes this morning. Started by sensing the breath, and then my pulse. Rather quickly I started noting sensations all over my body, which became ~5 Hz vibrations as they got more rapid. Almost as soon as the vibrations started, my body started shaking with them. The shaking was much finer than yesterday, almost a quivering. Twice during the session my mind was all over the place, so I stopped the shaking, went back to slow noting out loud, and let things develop again. One time the shaking started again, the second time it did not. This was shortly after the 45 minute chime. I got distracted at this point by how to sit (back of the chair vs upright), how cold the room was, etc. Managed to get focused again, the vibrations started again at an even lower amplitude, and it was more of a dissolution-like feeling of being in a sea of things that I noted.

Take a look at the gradation pattern of your practice over this period of two months. What patterns do you see? How far have you traveled?

Are you seeing the same one's I'm pointing out?

First, let's address the sitting position issue. Don't think that you have to be seated in any particular position. Choose whatever position is most comfortable for meditation. And that means at any time, at any place. If that means sitting in a chair, then so be it. Don't fret over it. Just do it and get on with your session. If you find that you have to adjust your position during the sit, then do so and return to your meditation immediately without thinking about it. The lesson is: don't let your sitting position become a hindrance to the development of concentration. Make whatever adjustments are necessary for comfort, and then return to the meditation.

For example: I usually start out sitting cross-legged on the edge of my couch. If I feel the legs losing circulation and it becomes mildly distracting (yes, only mildly for me at this point) I will adjust my legs by dropping my feet to the floor to allow circulation to resume. I don't think twice about it. I immediately return to the meditation and resume where I left off. Takes less than a couple of seconds to do. Bam! I'm back in a concentrated state examining phenomenon.

One thing to be aware of when following the Burmese instruction for "noting" is that by doing so, you have given up, to a certain extent, focusing on calming the mind and allowing the mind to sink deeper and deeper into that calm tranquil spot where concentration develops to its maximum potential. So, whenever you have to break away from that endeavor, you encourage the mind to become active by "noting" this and "noting" that. See?

Once the mind becomes active, it ceases to search after the calmness and the tranquility which helps to fuel the development of concentration. Concentration is developed through the practice of samatha meditation techniques. Mental activity, on the other hand, stimulates examination and evaluation which is a necessary ingredient for insight to arise during insight contemplation. If what you wish to accomplish first is a mind that follows your instructions whenever you issue them, work at developing concentration states. Once your mind begins to obey your instructions, then you are ready to pursue insight meditation techniques. "Noting" is an insight meditation technique.

Perhaps you might want to set noting aside for a bit to focus on becoming absorbed in the natural calm and tranquility of the mind. Once you begin to master this ability to enter the "silence of the calm," then you can return to the insight meditation techniques that will help stimulate discovery of insight into the Dhamma.

If you set your mind to accomplish an appreciation of calm and tranquility and keep bringing the mind back to that intention time and time again during your sit, eventually the mind will "get it" and obey your commands. When that day comes, you'll think: "Wow! I never knew this kind of control over my mind was possible!" But it is; if you focus on it.

Don't be surprised if, after you have been able to accomplish entering into a calm and concentrated state at will, that the idea of "noting" suddenly becomes dull and boring. The activity of noting is only supposed to serve a brief part of your overall practice: which is to alert the mind to those moments when it loses concentration so that you can then switch to bringing the mind back to the meditation object. Used in this manner, noting is an insight practice which allows you to catch yourself from indulging in a wandering mind.

However, once you are able to enter into a concentrated state at will (through the development of concentration abilities), you will find more intriguing objects to focus upon than simple noting will afford. A concentrated mind (states of appana samadhi or "fixed concentration") allows the mind to examine and evaluate objects more clearly, in an atmosphere of ease, in order to better see them for what they are. It is in such states (or momentary states) that fruition moments (realizations) occur.

So, think about whether or not you want to continue using insight meditation techniques while you are still trying to develop and master sufficient concentration states. Perhaps focusing on attaining to quiet and calm states (extended moments of calm, quietude, and unification of mind in pure unadulterated silence where the only focus is on BEING in that moment, and the last thing the mind has a tendency to want to do is to wander away from that tranquility), at this point in your journey, may profit you overall when you want to begin developing insight into the Dhamma.

Make sense?

Ian, thanks! This is a really good suggestion. It was actually your posts on the jhanas, which were linked from the reddit Buddhism page, that brought me here months ago. I was planning to add some jhana training to my (mostly shikantaza) practice, but then learned about the maps, the nanas, and everything else, and have let the jhana training lapse. I had been doing roughly 50/50 insight and concentration practice, but stopped when I passed the A&P event. Maybe either taking a break to study concentration, or going back to a balanced approach, would be a good step at this point.

Two hours this morning. One hour of metta and then concentration, a short break, and a second hour of insight.

Concentration was only okay. Had periods of good concentration, with warm feelings arising and persisting after I had managed to focus. Several strange feelings as well, like I was in a narrow alleyway, that I haven't experienced before.

Insight hour was a mess. Every time I started noting effectively at all, I got a very strong feeling of aversion, like I should quit and go back to bed. This happened maybe 5 times during the hour. I tried to note that feeling, but it was difficult to do so, and I was only somewhat successful in staying with the noting practice.

One hour this morning. Very different order of phenomena from what I'm used to. I sat down, and within a few minutes was in fast noting (mentally touching), and my body started to vibrate with the inner vibrations I was sensing. Even finer vibrations than before, so that I was barely moving. This persisted for about 15 minutes, and then I feel into a few minutes of very strong concentration, A&P-like, which persisted for perhaps 10 minutes more. Doing slow noting at this point, mentally noting "rising", "falling", "beat" (for a pulse), etc. Then the strong sense of focus went away, and I went into a period where I would have minutes of this type of noting, followed by times where I got lost in thoughts. I tried, and was somewhat successful, in being more vigilant of my thoughts, but there are times when I found myself one minute into a long thought about something at work, or about what I was going to log here.

I certainly use "I" a lot when I'm describing this, don't I? Guess I have a lot of work left to do.

FYI, I'm going to take a break from posting updates in my log here to see how my practice changes when I'm not trying to remember things to write down here. I still plan to sit 1-2 hours a day, and to split this time between noting and concentration practice. PM me if you want to touch base, or I'll post questions in other threads.