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RE: Toxic Evangelism, Hardcore Dharma and Relationships

RE: Toxic Evangelism, Hardcore Dharma and Relationships
Answer
2/3/13 9:10 AM as a reply to Be Free Now.
Be Free Now:
This is taken from here.

#11 really stands out regarding this discussion.

The Eighteen Root Downfalls [of Bodhisattvas].

1. praising oneself and belittling others
2. not sharing with others one’s wealth and Dharma
3. not forgiving even when others apologise
4. doubting and denying the doctrine of the Great Vehicle
5. taking offerings intended for the Three Jewels
6. abandoning the doctrine through sectarianism
7. causing an ordained person to disrobe
8. committing one of the five crimes of immediate retribution
9. holding perverted views
10. destroying places such as towns
11. teaching emptiness to the untrained
12. discouraging others from seeking full enlightenment
13. causing others to break the vows of Individual Liberation
14. belittling those who follow the path of Individual Liberation
15. proclaiming false realisations such as the realisation of emptiness
16. accepting gifts that have been misappropriated from the belongings of the Three Jewels
17. laying down harmful regulations and passing false judgement
18. giving up the pledge of altruistic aspiration



Number two just as clearly.

RE: Toxic Evangelism, Hardcore Dharma and Relationships
Answer
2/3/13 10:17 AM as a reply to Joshua, the solitary.
Joshua ..:
It looks like you are all letting yourselves off the hook a bit easy. It is no doubt easier to keep all knowledge of meditative attainment to oneself, so dont lets pretend this is necessarily the noble thing to do. When a good friend of mine began to take up smoking, it would have been easier and less arkward to let it be, yet I still gave it a good to of explaining the direct effects of it, before dropping the issue.
Of course one will put up resistance to meditation, as it would unfurl their identity. It is hardly ignoble to persist even through the first part of reaction. I speak of those in the five percent who are not absolutely unreceptive.

Consider the story of the lion cub that grows up with the sheep. Its way of life is pitiful, until a day once it is fully grown, a foreign lion comes and attacks the herd. Imagine the reaction of the tame lion, it must hate this attacking one. But then the attacking lion grabs the tame lion and drags him to a clear lake to look into its reflection. While previously struggling and full of hate and fear, the tame lion feels boundless gratitude for he other lion for revealing its true nature.

The impression I get from posts in this thread is that a lot of you think it would be more moral to let the tame lion be, with the sheep. On the other hand, I may just be playing devils advocate for I have not brought anyone to the a&p myself, and have effectively given up with that sort of endeavour.

I think the issue is that, if someone doesn't want to hear or see something, no amount of "tough love" is gonna get through to them. Ultimately, they've gotta come to their own conclusions and follow their own path. It really doesn't matter what is the "right" or the "wrong" way. If you don't let people be people and respect them for who they are, they will just come to resent you.

If they eventually DO decide to follow in your footsteps, then they have arrived there because they want to be there. Remember that someone has to want to be free of their suffering. If they don't even realize they are suffering, they aren't gonna seek help. Never underestimate the ability of people to wrap themselves up in their own rationalizations and mind loops. "You can lead a horse to water, but you can't make it drink."

Yes, I agree that compassion can be displayed in different ways, but I'd also caution that, unless we are very enlightened, we probably won't know what is true compassion and what is not. We can only perform according to our best intentions. We can desire for all beings to be free of suffering, but we can't force that suffering to end. In my opinion, the best way is to simply lead by example.

Finally, I'd also caution against the assumption that the dharma is the only way to get to enlightenment. It is one tried-and-tested way, but there are plenty of other valid spiritual traditions out there that also work. They just have different ways of going about the process. One size does not fit all... the world would be quite boring if it did.

RE: Toxic Evangelism, Hardcore Dharma and Relationships
Answer
2/3/13 1:17 PM as a reply to Joshua, the solitary.
Joshua ..:
It looks like you are all letting yourselves off the hook a bit easy. It is no doubt easier to keep all knowledge of meditative attainment to oneself, so dont lets pretend this is necessarily the noble thing to do. When a good friend of mine began to take up smoking, it would have been easier and less arkward to let it be, yet I still gave it a good to of explaining the direct effects of it, before dropping the issue.
Of course one will put up resistance to meditation, as it would unfurl their identity. It is hardly ignoble to persist even through the first part of reaction. I speak of those in the five percent who are not absolutely unreceptive.

Consider the story of the lion cub that grows up with the sheep. Its way of life is pitiful, until a day once it is fully grown, a foreign lion comes and attacks the herd. Imagine the reaction of the tame lion, it must hate this attacking one. But then the attacking lion grabs the tame lion and drags him to a clear lake to look into its reflection. While previously struggling and full of hate and fear, the tame lion feels boundless gratitude for he other lion for revealing its true nature.

The impression I get from posts in this thread is that a lot of you think it would be more moral to let the tame lion be, with the sheep. On the other hand, I may just be playing devils advocate for I have not brought anyone to the a&p myself, and have effectively given up with that sort of endeavour.


All this under the assumption that the dharma follower is "the lion who knows best," an assumption in favor of which I personally have not found any evidence (so far).

Under that assumption, it might seem like discouraging evangelism is to speak against a noble duty.

Without that assumption, however, it is just modesty - a modesty I find quite appropriate.

What makes dharma anything more than a set of skills and activities and learnings that you happen to like?