Hi,

This question feels a bit out of place here but I suppose what I am really after is some encouragement in practising noting please. Sorry if it's in the wrong category.

I have started practising "properly" in the past few weeks (though I have done some mindfulness of breathing very intermittently over the past few years) - by that I mean my level of commitment to actually getting on with practise has increased a lot - changes to routine etc. that facilitate more intensive meditation (like a couple of hours a day). I will be going on a 9-day Mahasi retreat in the summer to try and go a bit further with it, however....

Whilst I saw some pretty immediate benefits to the practice in terms of not feeling attached and caught up in experience, generally more at ease with whatever comes up, regularly catching my near-constant desire to change my experience (aversion?) and where my mind goes to "achieve" that change, at the moment the practice feels very tiring and negative - yes, I am supposed to keep noting it but I find it very hard to keep going when hour after hour, simply put, it's a grind, almost everything I note feels negative and I feel a bit like I'm being drawn a little too "taut" for comfort and it doesn't quite feel worthwhile.

My question is: is this just what I should expect? Does it average out over time? What are people's early experiences with the practice?

Thanks for any advice or help you can offer.

Lee

What kind of negative thoughts are you noting? What specific sensations predominate?

There are a lot of different reasons practice can be unpleasant. You're right that ultimately the instruction is to keep noting. Sometimes it's helpful to put it in the context of progress, which depends on specific phenomenological reports.

Where are you going for a Mahasi retreat?

Hi Some Guy,

Thanks for the quick reply.

It's generally a sort of restlessness and a desire to be elsewhere - I see it happen a lot when I am not sitting doing practice, it still feels unpleasant but it's far more obvious when you're sat stock still with nothing to do but watch and note your experience. I already recognise it as an habitual thing.

It's not a thought it's a general feeling - physical sensation and I guess an emotional state of sort of "yuck, I don't want my attention going there"/revulsion? - this creates an unpleasant tension that is a bit overwhelming and hard to note - can't seem to find a way into it; this could be a lack of concentration as well. Or just a lack of patience and perseverance - I really don't mind hearing that reply as it at least means it's going somewhere.

Does this sound familiar to you?

I'm going to Gaia House to Bhante Bodhidhamma's summer retreat there. I did a 9-day retreat at Satipanya 18 months ago with him and ran into similar issues as these I am describing - only back then I just sort of shelved the whole idea of doing the practice.

Thanks again,

Lee

I think ultimately you want to get into the yuck and break it down, but right now you also have "overwhelmed" and "hard" to work with. You might look into these secondary reactions before you get to the meat. (It's all meat.) There's a balancing act here. You don't want to push too hard, nor shy away. If it seems masochistic, back off a bit. This is where faith in the practice is helpful. If it's this hard, you're probably getting somewhere. Persevere, but gently.

That is only my opinion of course. Also, if you keep a regular log with dry phenomenological descriptions you and others can get a better sense of where it's all going.

Thanks again! Can you explain what you mean by dry phenomenological descriptions by way of example please?

Lee

This is where KFD beats DhO hands down. Most of the classic journals are in limbo somewhere, but I think you can get a good idea of what I mean here.

Great resource thanks!

Hi Lee,

Although it can be difficult to evaluate from only two posts, what I can see of the problem you are having seems to involve a lack of interplay between calm and insight (samatha and vipassana). Meaning using calm to gain insight and insight to gain (or re-gain) calm. As Gotama taught it, these two go together in meditation practice and are intermittently being replaced, one with the other, throughout any given session.

The practice of "noting" as it is taught in the Mahasi style approach to meditation practice was never taught by Gotama. That doesn't mean that it is anathema to what Gotama taught, only, rather, that this is an observation. Perhaps it might profit you, on occasion, to put aside "noting" (rather than persevering in its practice) in order to discover insight about what is causing the negativity in your session.

In your two main posts, you mention "unpleasant feeling" (vedana), which is an "affective response" to a phenomenon or an experience, no less than seven times! And yet, rather than explore (through insight) the source of that "unpleasant feeling," you run from it (by aversion).

Some Guy was correct when he suggested "ultimately you want to get into the yuck and break it down." In this way, you discover the origin of the unpleasantness, break it down by "seeing it for what it is" (as impermanent, unsatisfactory, and not-self), and then can continue with your meditation.

If you have developed enough concentration to be able to "note" during meditation on a fairly regular basis without an unnoticed break, then you have enough concentration to be able to incline the mind toward absorption meditation in order to be able to develop the ability to arrive at a solid foundation for the experience of samadhi, wherein the practice of contemplative insight really has an opportunity to blossom and flower.

Awakening occurs as we, one by one, eliminate the effect of those phenomena which cause dukkha. One way to do this is by realizing how important being fully cognizant of the aggregate of vedana and its causes is to our sense of well being and wholesomeness.

Just something to think about. You might find this a more pleasant and beneficial experience in the long run. And actually look forward to meditation rather than dreading it through aversion.

In peace,
Ian

Hi Ian,

Thanks for taking the time to write. I'll have a read through your reply again tomorrow before I reply.

Thanks again,

Lee

A lot of people cause themselves great misery by using noting practice. I have found the "I am" style of meditation so much more pleasant and useful. See: Nisagardatta, Ramana, Adyashanti amd co. Just reading their books is excellent practice in itself. But if you're doing reading as practice, don't read for meaning as you would a text book, but instead just let the words 'wash over' you as you would if you were reading poetry. An hour of reading Nisa will do more far for you than an hour of noting.

The difference between noting and "I am" is this: Noting involves putting attention on the chosen object with the aim of seeing what you are not. "I am" involves putting attention on the thing paying attention with the aim of seeing what you are. What is paying attention?....I am. What is the 'I' when it's on its own without an object to reference? More direct.

But one also needs to ask oneself what one really wants. Imagine a powerful guru standing before you, and he says "if you want, I can destroy your dreamworld of separation and cause you to wake up, right now". Knowing what that really means, would you say yes? I'm sure I wouldn't. People forget that they don't actually want it! Well, they sort of do but they really don't! Do you know what I'm saying? There you are with your ego intact and maybe it can accept the idea of letting go of desire and fear for an hour or so, but it desperately wants to survive and you're going to let this guru literally destroy your whole world? 1 in 10 million will say yes. Personally, I want to creep up on it slowly and get a taste of it. If I get the horrors, I can leave it alone for a while.

Regarding negative thoughts... I have found through experience that suppression is harmful. And I have also found that noting negative thoughts is also harmful. In both instances, the negativity grows. You are also finding this. So don't persist. Don't continue to hurt yourself. The greats say "There's no price to pay, just stop creating obstacles and your Self with shine through".

Early tensions in the body are common, as is a feeling of yuck.

Most of the time early on it is a stage called the Three Characteristics, where hard physical pain can predominate, as well as feeling of aversion.

Noting and noticing anything slightly mobile, anything slightly shifty, anything subtly vibratory, and perhaps using a more relaxed posture can help.

There is the take on the pain directly method: note the pain, and really send the investigative mind into it: exactly where is it, how many times does it present each second, how do impressions of that hard pain shift and converge and seem to overlap to create that sense of hardness where there is actually ephemerality? This is the question to ask directly of the sensations by really perceiving them freshly, clearly, again and again, rapidly, subtly, like something shimmering subtly: notice that shimmering if you can find it, even the tiniest bit of it is a gateway to more. Anything subtly vibratory, like faint chills, or the like, is gold at that stage.

Occasionally it is the stage called Re-Observation. Did you recently cross the A&P and now find yourself interested in meditation and going on a retreat?

Hi Ian,

When you say, "...discover insight about what is causing the negativity in your session" are you suggesting finding the concrete causes of particular negative sensations, e.g "I feel tense because I'm overtired"?

I will look up what you are referring to regarding "aggregate of vedana" to get a better idea of what you mean.

Your suggestion for do some concentration practice for a bit may be helpful - the first practice I was taught and did regularly was mindfulness of breathing - in doing that a lot though I got very very focussed (compared to my "base" state prior that) and sort of burned out. There is a balance somewhere there!

Going back to negativity in practice - when I reflect I can see that whatever state I have experienced in meditation (or otherwise) has never lasted - the other night was a feeling of intense fear, then a few hours later a very open, pleasant state...taking this perspective makes it easier to keep going.

What are the main practices that you do and how do you find balance between samatha/vipassana?

Thanks again, your comments are very welcome.

Lee

Hi C C C,

Thanks for your reply.

Are you describing Advaita Vedanta? I stumbled across something about that on KFD yesterday. I am not sure what you mean by "I am" - can you give an example? Feel free to just say "go read X, Y and Z". Is this a "comparable" route to the progress of insight of Mahasi approach? (Like, the different ways up the same mountain analogy?)

As I am just starting out I really want to see where I go with just 1/2 practices - even looking through this forum I can see lots of different suggestions - I am sure each has its own emphases, advantages, and disadvantages.

Thanks again.

Lee

Yes it probably falls under that category; I'm not really into the whole historical/academic bit, I just want one technique that works.

I posted this a while back: http://www.thecourse.org.uk/nmq.html#hdi

Or the links to short excerpts on this page: http://www.adyashanti.org/index.php?file=writings

I tend to be of the belief that if something is right for you, you'll know it immediately, so if such writing doesn't fit with you, it's probably best to leave it alone and try something else. Both links include techniques to practice.

I'm not the person to ask if this approach is comparable to the Mahasi approach, sorry. May I suggest just going with what feels right for you. Regarding "climbing the mountain", it might help to remember that there's nowhere to go and nothing to achieve. Only a self can conquer mountains and achieve great heights. This is important!

Hi Lee,

Well, yes, sort of. The example you gave ("because I'm overtired") is rather simplistic and not very deep in terms of discernment; and yet, depending on the circumstance, may very well be the origin of the unpleasant feeling. However, it also may be something that you are not able to yet consciously identify with any precision or depth of observation with regard to its arising. It all depends on what's going on that is affecting your response. If the way you described it in your first post is actually an accurate description of what you are undergoing:
[indent]
"It's not a thought it's a general feeling - physical sensation and I guess an emotional state of sort of "yuck, I don't want my attention going there"/revulsion? - this creates an unpleasant tension that is a bit overwhelming and hard to note - can't seem to find a way into it..."[/indent]
Then, yes, look directly at what is causing the vedana to arise as "unpleasantness." It may not pop out at you the first or second time you endeavor to examine this. But eventually, the origin of the "feeling" will make itself known to the mind that keeps seeking and examining its own experience to find the cause of the affective response.


Vedana is the second aggregate in the five aggregates that Gotama talked about as being his description of what makes up personality view. The five aggregates (khandha which means "a heap" of something or "aggregate" for short; pancakkhandhas or five heaps or aggregates that make up the personality view of the individual) are rupa (form or matter, i.e. like the physical body), vedana (the affective response to an experience often referred to as "feeling"), sanna (or perception), sankhara (volitional formations in the mind), and vinnana (conscious awareness of an object of observation).

Traditionally, vedana is translated in English by the word "feeling," but in actuality is defined as the "affective response to phenomena" as either a "pleasant, unpleasant, or neutral" feeling about that phenomenon. Sometimes these words are best left untranslated while at the same time providing a definition of what is meant by the word. In this case, if you can transfer this special definition to the English word "feeling" then you will know what others are speaking about when they use it to refer to vedana.

Having a accurate idea or conception about what vedana refers to is crucial to understanding (through insight) how to identify the origin of vedana when it arises into one's awareness.

At the end of this message, I have provided you with a couple of downloadable files which are essays that I wrote for myself to help me navigate my way through these processes of mind, so that I might become ever mindful of them.


Yes, there is a balance. And that balance is in the use of insight (vipassana) in conjunction with the concentration/calm/tranquility (samatha) practice you were doing. Someone neglected to inform you properly about how to practice this type of meditation. If all you were doing was calm/concentration practice, and not following up with insight, then it is no wonder that you became "burned out" about it. You weren't being taught what to do with this new found concentration!

When taught properly, once the person develops enough concentration and calm to be able to stay with an object of observation (like the breath) for extended periods of time without an unnoticed break in concentration, they should begin practicing a satipatthana type of meditation. Satipatthana is what the Buddha described as "the direct path" to self-realization and awakening, and refers to the four establishments of mindfulness. Satipatthana involves becoming mindful (in an insightful way) about the arising of rupa (or the body), vedana (one's affective responses), mano or citta (the mind and mind states), and dhammas (or phenomena, such as mundane thoughts, or when pursuing knowledge of the Dhamma the five aggregates, the five hindrances etc.). To quote Ven. Analayo from his classic book Satipatthana, The Direct Path to Realization:

[indent]"According to the discourses, not seeing the arising and passing away of phenomena is simply ignorance, while to regard all phenomena as impermanent leads to knowledge and understanding. Insight into the impermanence of the five aggregates or of the six sense-spheres is "right view," and therefore leads directly to realization. Thus the direct experience of impermanence represents indeed the 'power' aspect of meditative wisdom."[/indent]
This has also been corroborated by my direct experience of this process.


Good. That is a wise observation! Keep observing your experience in that way and you will gradually release all the dukkha what is within you.


Since I'm able to remain mindful throughout the day, finding balance between calm and insight is quite easy for me these days. I enter samadhi and spend the majority of my time contemplating insight about things I'm interested in examining. I meditate an hour in the mornings and a half hour in the evenings.

Learning to cultivate mindfulness, though, was not easy. It took several months of practicing dhyana (sometimes spelled "jhana") meditation in conjunction with satipattana practice (often outside of formal meditation) to recondition the mind in order to promote continuing mindfulness. That was just my experience based on the circumstances I had to deal with; others may vary and accomplish this more rapidly or more slowly depending on their particular circumstance.

In peace,
Ian

Thanks C C C, I'll have a read about it.

All the best,

Lee

Hi Ian,
Thanks for your message.


Okay, I see what you mean here. I was just contrasting the more "normal" cause and effect with something along the lines of "this is due to some fundamental truth that is to be uncovered". I had never thought about (in the context of noting practice) looking at causes like that. I understood it more as a general observation, and whatever draws the attention is noted and focussed on. Though I may of course be misunderstanding you and not comparing like for like (particularly if your comment was not advice on doing that practice).


All very welcome, thanks.


I have read in other sources about this problem - without wishing to get sidetracked here and turn this into a soup of threads, I've been very curious about that experience and what it was due to. Basically, doing the focussed concentration practice led to a state of feeling like you are really charged up with static electricity. In the end, each time it would get too much and I'd have to dump all that energy through maybe getting drunk or something similarly cathartic. So, without wishing to put words in your mouth, you're saying that perhaps if I had dumped that energy into trying to gain insight I may have got somewhere? I dread to think how many times I went through that cycle!


I will do some reading on Satipatthana practices. Right now it feels right to use the ones I've learned at whatever intensity I can muster for at least a while to see where they lead to.

Ian, thanks again for your time and energy discussing these things - it's really appreciated.

Lee

Hi Lee,

What I was suggesting, as you deduced, doesn't necessarily have anything to do with the noting practice that the Mahasi tradition teaches. I looked at those instructions, tried them a time or two, and ended up dumping them because they didn't seem to suit what I wanted to accomplish, which was a quiet mind. They are good, however, for assisting in taming and disciplining the mind from its incessant wandering. And there are people here who swear by them. The practice just never did interest me much.

Once I was able to absolutely still the mind (meaning no interior monologue ongoing, which came out of the blue one day; it was so surprising you could have knocked me down with a feather; it had been so long since I had experience anything like that, that I'd forgotten it was possible!), I focused on gaining insight into phenomena and the Dhamma.


I'm endeavoring to recall whether I had any experience like that when I was younger and beginning to meditate (at age 28). At the moment, I don't seem to recall anything like that stemming from meditation practice. The closest thing I can recall was building up too much piti (rapture or elation) one time. And once I figured out what caused it, I stopped allowing it to occur and reigned it in, so to speak.

(Except for some odd experiences when I was a young boy when I would get these, for lack of a clearer description, moments when my mind would become crystal clear and I could see the truth of things immediately without having to think too much about it, but would also experience what seemed to be a heighten sense of excess excitement (or "pent up energy," but I hate to use that word because it seems too imprecise for what occurred) that wouldn't wear off for about an hour or more. These episodes would occur once or twice a year and lasted between the ages of about 8 to 13 or so before tapering off as I progressed through my latter teens. It felt like I had access to all the knowledge in the universe! But I was too young to know what to do with these experiences. These were quite extraordinary occurrences, to say the least.)

As far as "dumping that energy into trying to gain insight" that would depend on my having a clearer understanding about what it was you were describing as "energy" and "charged up with static electricity." That is, what kind of physiological changes were being experienced. If it was as you say, a physical increase in the energy level such that it became like excess "nervous energy" that needed to be discharged, I can understand why you would look for ways to discharge it. When I was a child (as I described in the experiences above) I would look for things (physical and mental) that I had been putting off and tear into them and get them done to discharge and use up the energy build-up.

As far as what that might have been that you experienced, I don't know. I'd have to talk with you more about it (preferably directly) in order to gain a clearer conception about it.


Yes, that's fine. Don't rush into anything until you feel ready. I was just providing you with information about something to consider, if and when you feel ready to approach it, which will lead directly to awakening.

Ian