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A verse of twofold emptiness

A verse of twofold emptiness
Answer
4/7/13 11:32 PM
Taken from a facebook group dharma connection.

Thusness:

In ignorance, there is hearer hearing sound.
In anatta, in hearing, only sound.
Yet sound has no true inherent nature (empty),
It is an activity and is that very activity called “hearing”.
Both “hearing and sound” are pointing to the same activity.
Only when seen to have true existence on either side does confusion arise.

In Madhyamaka Emptiness, reification is seen through.
Yet the experiential state of freedom from reification is not expounded.
However one can have a taste of that freedom from arising insight of anatta since anatta is precisely the freedom from reification of Self/self (First fold Emptiness).
In anatta, seeing is simply the full scenery, in hearing only sound…
thus, always only lights, shape, colors, sounds, scents… in clean purity.
Emptying the object further (second fold) is merely dissolving subtle bond of “externality” that creates the appearance of true existence of objects outside. When “externality” is deconstructed, it is effectively a double confirmation of anatta…
…innerly coreless and outwardly empty, all appearances are still simply sound, lights, colors and rays
In thorough deconstruction, as there is no layer that reifies, there is no conceptuality. Therefore no complication, no confusion, no stains, no boundaries, no center, no sense of dual..
no sense of activity…just self arising.
All collapse into a single sphere of natural presence and spontaneous simplicity.
Whatever appears is
neither here nor now,
Neither in nor out,
Neither arises nor ceases,
In the same space…
non-local, timeless and dimensionless
Simply present…

To Jax:
The place where there is no earth, fire, wind, space, water…
is the place where the earth, fire, wind, space and water kills “You” and fully shines as its own radiance, a complete taste of itself and fully itself.

Lastly, it is interesting to get know something about Dzogchen however the jargons and tenets are far beyond me.
Just wrote due to a sudden spurt of interest, nothing intense.
Thanks for all the sharing and exchanges.
Gone!

RE: A verse of twofold emptiness
Answer
4/8/13 1:21 PM as a reply to An Eternal Now.
An Eternal Now:
Emptying the object further (second fold) is merely dissolving subtle bond of “externality” that creates the appearance of true existence of objects outside. When “externality” is deconstructed, it is effectively a double confirmation of anatta…


That's the only part where I can perceive a difference between 1-fold and 2-fold even if I dont' understand it. Everything else make 2-fold sounds the same as 1-fold (in the hearing only the hearing). I'm curious to hear 4th Pathers on that matter. It sounds like if 1-fold mean eliminating the center and then 2-fold eliminate something left around what used to be the center... But that just words and it's basically meaningless to me as since I still have a center.

RE: A verse of twofold emptiness
Answer
4/8/13 2:10 PM as a reply to An Eternal Now.
It is interesting that in another thread the was the assertion that MCTB whatever was about the first meaning of emptiness, rather than what your quote defines as both.

Just to be clear:

When I mean empty, I also mean without boundary, without inside and outside

I also mean the direct immediate experience in its unprocessed or raw form. I also mean the total dissolution of the sense of a perceiver.

I also mean no active agent.

I also mean that nothing is stable, including space and time.

I also mean that all is bare, shifting, empty sensate experience, causal, happening according to the basic laws of the universe, naturally, on its own.

I also would say that there is no boundary or differentiation between the sense doors at they occur, nor between body and mind, nor between manifestation and awareness, nor between this and that, beyond those ordinarily used for communication and discriminating function, but these are not the essential nature of experience, just part of it as sensations when they occur.

Nor can one find any here that is stable, nor a now that is stable, nor a knower, nor an investigator, nor any practitioner, nor any attainer.

When I talk of an integrated transient, natural, causal, luminous experience field, this sounds to me exactly like your "All collapse into a single sphere of natural presence and spontaneous simplicity."

I see no obvious difference either in theory or in actual practice.

Thoughts?

RE: A verse of twofold emptiness
Answer
4/8/13 8:54 PM as a reply to Daniel M. Ingram.
Daniel M. Ingram:

When I talk of an integrated transient, natural, causal, luminous experience field, this sounds to me exactly like your "All collapse into a single sphere of natural presence and spontaneous simplicity."

Thoughts?


AEN, please correct me if I am wrong, because my understanding isn't the greatest. Nevertheless, here is a stab at explaining it...


The normative view is that there is a sort of feeling of an inherently existing self, a self that has certain properties. But if we investigate it and break it down into sensory data, see how it isn't really there till at one point the sense that there is an I ceases to arise. Experiences might have certain properties but we realize that there was never really a substantive I at the center to begin with. The nominal 'I' doesn't go away but leads to a different way of experiencing the world.

This is one fold emptiness.


For two fold emptiness lets replace the self with a slice of chocolate cake, representing the universe...



The "1 fold emptiness" view is that there is a thing called a choclate cake, that has certain properties. But if we investigate our senses independently to find the unique chocolate cake it becomes evident that the physical chocolate cake that exists in space and time is an imputation, based on some rather basic sensory input.

eg the visual field is shades of color. the entire tactile filed is one sensation, the location imputed later on by the mind. etc.

When all objects are repeatedly deconstructed in this way. The sense of an inherently existing slice of chocolate cake is seen through. There was never really an inherently existing chocolate cake to being with. Nominally the chocolate cake still tastes like chocolate cake. But it leads to a different way of experiencing the world.

RE: A verse of twofold emptiness
Answer
4/8/13 10:56 PM as a reply to (D Z) Dhru Val.
DZ, I am not sure if you are implying that Daniel is just talking about single-fold emptiness, but if you are, these quotes definitely suggests that he is actually talking about 2-fold emptiness.

I also would say that there is no boundary or differentiation between the sense doors at they occur, nor between body and mind, nor between manifestation and awareness, nor between this and that, beyond those ordinarily used for communication and discriminating function, but these are not the essential nature of experience, just part of it as sensations when they occur.


When I talk of an integrated transient, natural, causal, luminous experience field, this sounds to me exactly like your "All collapse into a single sphere of natural presence and spontaneous simplicity."


I don't really know how he could make it any clearer to be honest...

RE: A verse of twofold emptiness
Answer
4/9/13 9:06 PM as a reply to Daniel M. Ingram.
Daniel M. Ingram:
It is interesting that in another thread the was the assertion that MCTB whatever was about the first meaning of emptiness, rather than what your quote defines as both.

Just to be clear:

When I mean empty, I also mean without boundary, without inside and outside

I also mean the direct immediate experience in its unprocessed or raw form. I also mean the total dissolution of the sense of a perceiver.

I also mean no active agent.

I also mean that nothing is stable, including space and time.

I also mean that all is bare, shifting, empty sensate experience, causal, happening according to the basic laws of the universe, naturally, on its own.

I also would say that there is no boundary or differentiation between the sense doors at they occur, nor between body and mind, nor between manifestation and awareness, nor between this and that, beyond those ordinarily used for communication and discriminating function, but these are not the essential nature of experience, just part of it as sensations when they occur.

Nor can one find any here that is stable, nor a now that is stable, nor a knower, nor an investigator, nor any practitioner, nor any attainer.

When I talk of an integrated transient, natural, causal, luminous experience field, this sounds to me exactly like your "All collapse into a single sphere of natural presence and spontaneous simplicity."

I see no obvious difference either in theory or in actual practice.

Thoughts?
What you said is all very resonating here.

However, I see emptiness of subjective self and emptiness of objects as two distinct realization. One may penetrate the subject, agent, perceiver, source, etc... and yet conceive of things appearing as 'outside'. Well experientially, without a perceiver, there is no sense of an inside and outside and experience is just 'in seeing only scenery', however it may still seem that the things in scenery exist 'outside' on its own.

Does seeing through the subjective self lead to seeing everything as 'mere appearance' or 'just experience'? Not necessarily. Things can still appear to be external to mind/awareness/experience after no-self. This is not just a matter of no subject/object duality in experience. The experience may already be non-dual, but subtle dualistic view can still distort perception.

The realization of emptiness is something intimate and non-intellectual. That is to say, understanding the theory of anatta doctrinally is not the same as actually realizing and experiencing it, the same goes for twofold emptiness.

Investigating into thoughts and perceptions, looking for the origin, location, core, and ceasing of phenomena, it may be suddenly realized that everything is an unborn and unoriginated appearance that is illusory like a magical apparition (without a magician as there is no self/Self). Non-arising and non-ceasing. It is not that everything is subsumed into a changeless/deathless Self or Mind (that view is seen through in anatta), it is that "mind", even though empty of self and seen as mere mental activities, that manifesting activities is further penetrated to be empty. Everything is mere appearance/mind/experience/empty and non-arising. Contemplating on thoughts and perceptions this way and the resultant insight happened after reading an instruction from Mahamudra.

One can also try an experiment such as taking a small mirror and tilt it to an angle that reflects one light source from above at you. Then, noticing that depending on which eye you use to look (without even needing to close your eye), you can see that light at the top, or bottom (or another location) of the surface of the mirror and if you use both eyes you see two lights on the surface. Is there inherently one light at the top, at the bottom, or two lights? This is not to be answered intellectually like, "it's all empty" or a "yes and no" answer. It is being contemplated until intuitive insight of dependent origination and a conviction and experience of everything as an empty coreless illusion/appearance arises. There is a deconstruction of externality/objectivity into an immediate taste, just like in anatta realization there is a deconstruction of subjectivity into a non-dual luminous taste of 'just sensation'. This must arise as a taste and not a logic, then bliss and wonder and release will arise. This 'experiment' arose spontaneously and led to to an experience so I am sharing this from experience.


Just as Loppon Namdrol said:

...At base, the main fetter of self-grasping is predicated upon naive refication of existence and non-existence. Dependent origination is what allows us to see into the non-arising nature of dependently originated phenomena, i.e. the self-nature of our aggregates. Thus, right view is the direct seeing, in meditative equipoise, of this this non-arising nature of all phenomena. As such, it is not a "view" in the sense that is something we hold as concept, it is rather a wisdom which "flows" into our post-equipoise and causes us to truly perceive the world in the following way in Nagarjuna's Bodhicittavivarana:

"Form is similar to a foam,
Feeling is like water bubbles,
Ideation is equivalent with a mirage,
Formations are similar with a banana tree,
Consciousness is like an illusion."


This vision is not just a Mahayana thing - it is clearly described by Buddha in many occassions, including in Phena Sutta.

http://awakeningtoreality.blogspot.com.au/2012/06/advise-for-taiyaki.html

Thusness:

Last year, a forummer from the NewBuddhist forum (Albert Hong a.k.a. Taiyaki) penetrated within a year the realization of I AM to non dual and anatta. He is an avid reader of this blog.

Thusness wrote the following pointers for him:

"There are several points that maybe of help to Taiyaki:

1. First there must be a deep conviction that arising does not need an essence. That view of subjective essence is simply a convenient view.

2. First emptying of self/Self does not necessarily lead to illusion-like experience of reality. It does however allows experience to become vivid, luminous, direct and non-dual.

3. First emptying may also lead a practitioner to be attached to an 'objective' world or turns physical. The 'dualistic' tendency will resurface after a period of few months so it is advisable to monitor one's progress for a few months.

4. Second emptying of phenomena will turn experience illusion-like but take note of how emptying of phenomena is simply extending the same "emptiness view" of Self/self.

5. From these experiences and realizations, contemplate what is meant by "thing", what is meant by mere construct and imputation.

6. "Mind and body drop" are simply dissolving of mind and body constructs. If one day the experience of anatta turns a practitioner to the attachment of an 'objective and actual' world, deconstruct "physical".

7. There is a relationship between "mental constructs", energy, luminosity and weight. A practitioner will experience a release of energies, freedom, clarity and feel light and weightless deconstructing 'mental constructs'.

8. Also understand how the maha experience of interpenetration and non-obstruction is related to deconstructions of inherent view.

9. No body, no mind, no dependent origination, no nothing, no something, no birth, no death. Profoundly deconstructed and emptied! Just vivid shimmering appearances as Primordial Suchness in one whole seamless unobstructed-interpenetration."

RE: A verse of twofold emptiness
Answer
4/9/13 7:43 AM as a reply to An Eternal Now.
Thusness just wrote something in our blog: http://awakeningtoreality.blogspot.com.au/2013/04/daniels-post-on-anattaemptiness.html


Thusness's comments to AEN:

Hi AEN,

Those were just some very casual sharing written on the spur of a moment, they were not well thought. Emptiness to me has another dimension if you wish to look into it.

When there is not even a single trace of Self/self nor is there any sense of inner/outer division, experiencer and what experienced collapsed...

At this moment there is just this vivid beautiful scenery, this bright brilliant world…all self arises

At this point…

Close your eyes....

Voidness....

Leave yourself with this all-consuming awaring void, this clear non-dual Awareness standing alone as itself and of itself…

Then shift the focus to the breath…

Just the sensations of the breath…

Then the transparent dancing sensations…absolutely no mind, no body, no experiencer/experienced, no inner/outer division …borderless and boundless

Every moment is all consuming…great and miraculous …

This must become so natural to you first.

Then at this moment of appreciating maha suchness of the breath, the sensations, the entire scenery, the entire world…

Understand that their nature is Emptiness.

Experience the magnificence then deeply understand that they are empty but this Emptiness has nothing to do with deconstruction or reification or do I mean they are impermanent. So what is this Emptiness I am referring to?

RE: A verse of twofold emptiness
Answer
9/22/13 5:54 PM as a reply to An Eternal Now.
An Eternal Now:

Every moment is all consuming…great and miraculous …

This must become so natural to you first.

Then at this moment of appreciating maha suchness of the breath, the sensations, the entire scenery, the entire world…
Wrote some stuff recently after it became more apparent during a contemplation.

"After maturing the insight of anatta, the natural and immediate experience is total exertion. It is an intuitive experience. In hearing, there is only sound. But it is not just the non-dual experience of sound, it also has this flavor of the entire movement, a total activity, and that becomes natural. One starts to see whole universe involved in the activity. Then one begins to feel net of indra in real time."

"Dharma Body

We might feel that our body is moving through the universe... then we might realize that body is not 'our' nor is it 'other', in fact there's no 'body' other than felt sensations, perceptions and actions (movement, etc)... and this sensation-perception-action is not in any way limited... for where does body end and the world begin? Where can we divide an inner into an outer? Not me, not mine of bodily aggregates leads to the dropping of a presupposed 'me/mine' grasping, reference and boundaries not in a dissociative way but rather leading to complete intimacy with the whole field of Dharma. Is body 'me' or 'mine' or ever just part of the world/universe/environment or better yet - just the Dharma* in a whole interconnected movement?

(Note: Dharma as simply a unit of experience dependently originating - not implying any inherently existing material universe [as the universe/dharma body here is seen as marvelous activities/phenomena dependently originating seamlessly without center or boundaries], nor is this dharma body in any sense a subjective body at all [if it is subjectively self-existent then causes and conditions will not be incorporated nor necessary for any given manifestation])

I was suddenly reminded of a term used by Thusness many years ago, "Dharma Body". Here I do not dissociate from my body as 'other'... in fact all bodily sensations and movement are felt in crystal clarity and intimacy... Yet, no more intimate than the trees and the sky and the buildings, which are all the Dharma Body in action... all functioning together as much as two legs are functioning together in an activity called walking.

Yes... when I move this body (actually take the "I" out - body is just this movement without I), it is this whole hands swinging-legs moving-heads turning-scenery appearing and shifting all in one interconnected activity, and this "environment"/scenery is also the movement of body as much as moving legs are considered the movement of body. It is all the Dharma Body in action and complete intimacy.

Update: elaborated on how the Dharma Body is neither an inherently existing object nor a subject to clarify due to noticed tendency to misunderstand what I mean."

RE: A verse of twofold emptiness
Answer
9/20/13 7:10 AM as a reply to An Eternal Now.
http://awakeningtoreality.blogspot.com.au/2013/07/contemplatingobserving-breathing.html

2nd translation. As with my first translation, help in correcting is very much appreciated!

http://blog.sina.com.cn/s/blog_5b4d23f60102e2y3.html

观呼吸 (Contemplating/observing breathing)
(2012-08-02 11:00:07)

智者坐在那里观呼吸,
他不说“我在呼吸”、“我在呼吸”……
那样是在强化一个虚幻的、不存在的“我”!
也不符合事实真相。

The Wise One sits there contemplating/observing breathing,
He does not say "I am breathing", "I am breathing"....
That would be solidifying a delusional, non-existent "self"!
And it does not match with the truth of things.




“呼——吸”、“呼——吸”……
他观察到,其中没有呼吸的人、也没有被呼吸的人。
呼吸在进行,就像天地起落的风;
就像风来回在一片枊叶之旁。

"Breathe in ------- Breathe out", "Breathe in ------- Breathe out"...
He notices that, in it there is no person who is breathing, and there is no person who is being-breathed.
Breathing is on-going, like the wind rising and falling in the sky and earth (world).
It is just like wind going back and forth at the side of a willow leaf.


在呼吸之中,
没有一个独立的造作者,也不存在一个承受造作的人。
是胸,是肺,是骨,是髓,是血,是肉,
是心、是念……,是诸缘造成了呼吸!

In the midst of breathing,
There is no independent doer, there does not exist a person who is the feeler of action.
It is the chest, it is the lungs, it is the bones, it is the marrow, it is the blood, it is the flesh,
it is the mind, it is the thought...., it is various conditions that is causing breathing!


当他长吸气,他了了分明他在长吸气,
但他不认为是他在吸气,
是他在吸气的诸缘中,又加入了一个“我作长吸气”的念,
于是长吸气发生。

When he is breathing in long, he clearly comprehends that he is breathing in long,
but he does not reckon that it is he who is breathing in,
that is within the various conditions of his breathing in, one imputes another layer of thought "I am doing the breathing in long"
Therefore breathing-in long happens.


当他长呼气,他了了分明他在长呼气,
但他不认为是他在呼气,
是他在呼气的诸缘中,又加入了一个“我作长呼气”的念,
于是长呼气发生。

When he is breathing out long, he clearly comprehends that he is breathing out long,
But he does not reckon that it is he who is breathing out,
that is within the various conditions of his breathing out, one imputes another layer of thought "I am doing the breathing out long"
Therefore breathing-out long happens.


当他短吸气,他了了分明他在短吸气,
但他不认为是他在吸气,
是他在吸气的诸缘中,又加入了一个“我作短吸气”的念,
于是短吸气发生。

When he is breathing in short, he clearly comprehends that he is breathing in short,
But he does not reckon that it is he who is breathing in,
that is within the various conditions of his breathing in, one imputes another layer of thought "I am doing the breathing in short"
Therefore breathing-in short happens.



当他短呼气,他了了分明他在短呼气,
但他不认为是他在呼气,
是他在呼气的诸缘中,又加入了一个“我作短呼气”的念,
于是短呼气发生。

When he is breathing out short, he clearly comprehends that he is breathing out short,
But he does not reckon that it is he who is breathing out,
that is within the various conditions of his breathing out, one imputes another layer of thought "I am doing the breathing out short"
Therefore breathing-out short happens.



深观呼吸者,归依风界;
深观呼吸者,了见诸法无我!
深观呼吸者,看见了因缘法;
因看见了因缘法,他看见了如来!

Deeply contemplating the breather, returning and relying/taking refuge in the element of wind/air;
Deeply contemplating the breather, seeing with insight that all dharmas are without self!
Deeply contemplating the breather, seeing the dharma of dependent origination;
Because of seeing the dharma of dependent origination, he sees the Thus Come One !


如观呼吸一样,
智者观想“受、想、行、识”——
于诸受中,智人不见造作者,不见承受者;
于“想、行、识”中,也是这样。

Just like contemplating/observing the breathing,
The Wise One contemplates "feelings, perception, volition and consciousness" ----
And within all feelings, The Wise One does not conceive of a doer, does not conceive of a feeler;
And within "perception, volition and consciousness", it is also likewise.


观呼吸,可以入法界;
智者深观一切法,皆能通达诸法实相,见证如来!
呼吸是个入口,
一切色、受、想、行、识,皆是入口。

By contemplating/observing breathing, it is possible to enter the Dharmadhatu;
The Wise One deeply contemplates/observes all dharmas, thereby could understand the reality of all dharmas, and witness the Thus Come One !
Breathing is an entry-point,
All forms, feelings, perceptions, volition, and consciousness are all entry points.


智者坐在那里观呼吸,
他观见虚空藏菩萨,观见风神,
观见三世一切如来,
呼——吸、呼——吸,他就像天地。

The Wise One sits there contemplating/observing breathing,
He perceives the Ākāśagarbha bodhisattva (bodhisattva of boundless space treasury), perceives the god of the wind,
perceives all the Thus Come Ones of the three times,
Breathe in --------- Breathe out. Breathe in --------- Breathe out. He is just like heaven and earth.

RE: A verse of twofold emptiness
Answer
4/10/13 1:30 PM as a reply to An Eternal Now.
I found this on zenforuminternational.org and it helped me understand what I believe AEN is referring to with "two-fold emptiness". I don't think it is not seeing externality, I think it is seeing internality AS externality.

"First is the ordinary view; the self sees dharmas as “other” (than the self). Second is the view from within the experience of emptiness; the self sees dharmas as “self” (i.e. dharmas as “other” vanish; self and other merge into oneness); herein “self” and “other” are experienced as lacking distinctness, hence there is “no self” and “no other” – only a uniform oneness. Third is the Buddha view; the self sees self as “other”; this occurs when, from the perspective of emptiness (i.e. the oneness of self and other) the self sees that despite their “oneness” the “other” (dharmas) appears and acts independently of the will/expectation of the “self.”"

It seems two-fold emptiness is the view in bold. It seems you have to see through the illusion of a self-existent "single sphere of natural presence and spontaneous simplicity". The self is not self, that is why it is self. Dharmas are not dharmas, that is why they are dharmas.

Because of this view, a buddha is not a sentient being.

I don't think you can talk about this phenomenologically because it transcends phenomena.

Any thoughts on this?

RE: A verse of twofold emptiness
Answer
4/10/13 12:45 PM as a reply to Nick Mason.
Nick Mason:
I found this on zenforuminternational.org and it helped me understand what I believe AEN is referring to with "two-fold emptiness". I don't think it is not seeing externality, I think it is seeing internality AS externality.

"First is the ordinary view; the self sees dharmas as “other” (than the self). Second is the view from within the experience of emptiness; the self sees dharmas as “self” (i.e. dharmas as “other” vanish; self and other merge into oneness); herein “self” and “other” are experienced as lacking distinctness, hence there is “no self” and “no other” – only a uniform oneness. Third is the Buddha view; the self sees self as “other”; this occurs when, from the perspective of emptiness (i.e. the oneness of self and other) the self sees that despite their “oneness” the “other” (dharmas) appears and acts independently of the will/expectation of the “self.”"

It seems two-fold emptiness is the view in bold. It seems you have to see through the illusion of a self-existent "single sphere of natural presence and spontaneous simplicity". The self is not self, that is why it is self. Dharmas are not dharmas, that is why they are dharmas.

Any thoughts on this?


This remind me writings by Bernardette Roberts. If I'm not mistaken, she call "oneness" her first shift and "no-self" her last shift.

RE: A verse of twofold emptiness
Answer
4/11/13 9:48 AM as a reply to Nick Mason.
Nick Mason:
I found this on zenforuminternational.org and it helped me understand what I believe AEN is referring to with "two-fold emptiness". I don't think it is not seeing externality, I think it is seeing internality AS externality.

"First is the ordinary view; the self sees dharmas as “other” (than the self). Second is the view from within the experience of emptiness; the self sees dharmas as “self” (i.e. dharmas as “other” vanish; self and other merge into oneness); herein “self” and “other” are experienced as lacking distinctness, hence there is “no self” and “no other” – only a uniform oneness. Third is the Buddha view; the self sees self as “other”; this occurs when, from the perspective of emptiness (i.e. the oneness of self and other) the self sees that despite their “oneness” the “other” (dharmas) appears and acts independently of the will/expectation of the “self.”"

It seems two-fold emptiness is the view in bold. It seems you have to see through the illusion of a self-existent "single sphere of natural presence and spontaneous simplicity". The self is not self, that is why it is self. Dharmas are not dharmas, that is why they are dharmas.

Because of this view, a buddha is not a sentient being.

I don't think you can talk about this phenomenologically because it transcends phenomena.

Any thoughts on this?
That particular quote by Ted Biringer is not bad.

When the self sees dharmas as self, that is the realization of One Mind. At One Mind, subject and object is collapsed into Self. One still clings to an unchanging, independent Self/Mind/Awareness but at the same time it is expressing itself 'AS' everything without the slightest gap or distance (instead of things happening 'to' or 'within' me, which is still dualistic)... so everything is subsumed as Me, mySelf. Non-dual yet inherent. This is Thusness Stage 4.

Anatta realization is not the same. Instead of collapsing everything into an undifferentiated oneness, one penetrates the view of 'Awareness' 'Mind' 'Self' and see that it is ever just a label collating all the myriad phenomena. In seeing there is just self-luminous colours/shapes/forms, in hearing always just sound, 'awareness' is just all of these details... there never was an awareness in and of itself, no Self, and no uniform oneness either.

At this point, due to seeing through self/Self-view completely, there is naturally not a collapsing into an inherent oneness base (subject/object collapses into one field of awareness appearing as everything without division) but wide boundless opening into multiplicity of all experiences.

At this point, even oneness is deconstructed - in fact, without a Subject to begin with, what could be 'one with' the objects? There is not even an subject/object inseparability there, there is simply manifestation, activity, vivid and alive pure sensations, pure sound, pure scenery without seer. It's like saying, water is one with h2o. Well, if water IS just a label for h2o, how could there be a 'water' to be 'one with' h2o? There's just h2o, a conglomerate and process of seamlessly dependently originated activities. And what is water? Water is not a container of h2o, nor is it made of h2o, nor is it one with h2o, nor is it separate from h2o, because water is mere label collating h2o. Water IS h2o... conventionally speaking. 'Self' and 'aggregates' are likewise - mere imputations, ultimately empty.

Ted Biringer is very clear about the different phase of insight between One Mind and Anatta, and he states:

Dogen explains that although Buddhas and ancestors actualize various kinds of enlightenment (e.g. original, acquired, initial, etc.), there is more to Buddhas and ancestors than that. The “body” that the Buddha spoke of as consisting of the “integrated form” of myriad dharmas should not be hastily regarded as a “single unified form” (of undifferentiated oneness). According to Dogen, this “oceanic-body” does not contain the myriad forms, nor is it made up of myriad forms – it is the myriad forms themselves. The same instruction is provided at the beginning of Shobogenzo, Gabyo (pictured rice-cakes) where, he asserts that, “as all Buddhas are enlightenment” (sho, or honsho), so too, “all dharmas are enlightenment” which he says does not mean they are simply “one” nature or mind. On that line from Gabyo, Hee-Jin Kim comments:

All Buddhas and all things cannot be reduced to a static entity or principle symbolized as one mind, one nature, or the like. This guards against views that devaluate the unique, irreplaceable individuality of a single dharma.
Hee-Jin Kim, Flowers of Emptiness, p.257



And if in seeing there's just what's seen happening, thinking just thoughts happening never an experiencer or thinker, then isn't everything self-arising and self-felt? Everything is self-arising and self-felt without an agent.

But all these are still Anatta... they are not what I call the twofold or secondfold emptiness. In twofold emptiness, externality too is deconstructed (but not subsumed).

Ted Biringer has direct realization into Anatta, but not just that, also further penetrates Dependent Origination leading to Maha and total exertion... but the Zen tradition mostly do not emphasize emptiness realization (with some exceptions that I've seen) but on that, especially Dogen is clear about the Maha aspect. The Tibetan traditions on the other hand focus more on Emptiness realization and may neglect total exertion and Maha.

Sorry if those terms are confusing, they are explained by Thusness here: http://awakeningtoreality.blogspot.com.au/2009/03/on-anatta-emptiness-and-spontaneous.html

RE: A verse of twofold emptiness
Answer
4/11/13 9:12 PM as a reply to An Eternal Now.
An Eternal Now:
But all these are still Anatta... they are not what I call the twofold or secondfold emptiness. In twofold emptiness, externality too is deconstructed (but not subsumed).

What do you mean by externality?

RE: A verse of twofold emptiness
Answer
4/11/13 9:48 PM as a reply to Nick Mason.
Nick Mason:
An Eternal Now:
But all these are still Anatta... they are not what I call the twofold or secondfold emptiness. In twofold emptiness, externality too is deconstructed (but not subsumed).

What do you mean by externality?
That objects truly exist and is real, not mere appearance, not illusory.

RE: A verse of twofold emptiness
Answer
4/23/13 2:43 AM as a reply to An Eternal Now.
An Eternal Now:
That objects truly exist and are real, not mere appearance, not illusory.


Hello AEN, long time no type emoticon

I have a problem with your statement, for "objects" imply "subjects", and that is not what anatta/sunyata is, according to my experience.

Hows this:
what 5 aggregates yield is real, not illusory, but completely free, non-abiding, with no inherent nature or meaning or implication whatsoever - well, empty, for the lack of a better word.


s.

RE: A verse of twofold emptiness
Answer
4/23/13 4:18 AM as a reply to Seraph .'..
[quote=Seraphis .'.]
An Eternal Now:
That objects truly exist and are real, not mere appearance, not illusory.


Hello AEN, long time no type emoticon

I have a problem with your statement, for "objects" imply "subjects", and that is not what anatta/sunyata is, according to my experience.

Hows this:
what 5 aggregates yield is real, not illusory, but completely free, non-abiding, with no inherent nature or meaning or implication whatsoever - well, empty, for the lack of a better word.


s.Hi Seraphis, you misread my statement. I was answering Nick's question about what I mean by externality.

Five skandhas are unreal and illusory just like a dream or a magician's trick.

RE: A verse of twofold emptiness
Answer
4/23/13 4:35 AM as a reply to An Eternal Now.
I was talking with Piotr yesterday. Piotr is a 19 year old guy from Poland who recently realized anatta (http://sgforums.com/forums/1728/topics/468434)


10:42pm
Piotr

if u were to give pith

instruction about second-fold emptiness when one already sees that sound is hearing without agent, what is lacking there for second-fold emptiness if one doesn't assume there are objects/material world behind these activities which spontaneously (non-)arise nowhere?
10:45pm

AEN

as thusness pointed out,

10:45pm
Piotr

I saw that u described anatta in similiar way that I could describe it pointing to mere sound-hearing without heearer, but ur thread in DhO about two-fold emptiness

it seems it isn't complete

(that thread in which daniel ingram responded to u)
10:49pm
AEN

12/4/13 7:38:27 PM: Thusness: In my article anatta and emptiness, I mention abt ungraspability of thought, have u contemplated abt that?

12/4/13 7:48:41 PM: Thusness: When u open ur eyes and see the entire vivid scenery, where is this scenery?

12/4/13 7:49:11 PM: Thusness: Outside, inside, other's mind or in ur mind?

12/4/13 7:52:31 PM: Thusness: Step on the floor...feel the hardness sensation

12/4/13 7:52:44 PM: Thusness: Where?

12/4/13 7:53:07 PM: Thusness: Clearly here but 'where'
10:50pm
AEN

12/4/13 8:48:39 PM: Thusness: Seeing things intuitively as illusionary may not b a good thing if one is not ready

12/4/13 8:50:22 PM: AEN: Oic.. How come

12/4/13 9:06:19 PM: Thusness: Actually second emptying is abt this, not simply deconstructing 'externality' as I hv told taikayi

12/4/13 9:08:11 PM: Thusness: But it is better to mature this seamless experience into a single activity b4 talking abt that

12/4/13 9:09:07 PM: Thusness: If experience is truly pervaded by this sense of illusory, the 3 states turn into a single activity

12/4/13 9:09:40 PM: Thusness: May not b a good thing

12/4/13 9:17:50 PM: AEN: Why may not be a good thing

12/4/13 9:19:38 PM: Thusness: May cause a person to hv some strange experiences

12/4/13 9:28:59 PM: AEN: What kind of strange experience

12/4/13 10:10:30 PM: AEN: So u feel like everything is a dream in waking state too

12/4/13 10:10:32 PM: AEN: Isn't that good

12/4/13 10:51:34 PM: Thusness: It is better to perfect and mature insight of anatta and total exertion then isn't everything clear, non-dual, luminous, boundless and illusionary?

12/4/13 10:52:21 PM: Thusness: Yet it is clearly and naturally understood and experienced like our heart beat

12/4/13 11:45:09 PM: Thusness: Actually a lot of advises abt non-meditation and spontaneity is for those after maturing insight of anatta...

13/4/13 12:41:58 AM: AEN: U said anatta and total exertion then illusionary

13/4/13 12:42:34 AM: AEN: But isn't anatta only leading to nondual direct etc

13/4/13 12:42:51 AM: AEN: Like ted biringer always talking about total exertion maha

13/4/13 12:43:04 AM: AEN: But always putting down illusionary

13/4/13 12:43:44 AM: AEN: He says prajnaparamita teachings don't teach illusionary or not existing but how things really exist

13/4/13 12:44:14 AM: AEN: Anyway Kyle just replied

13/4/13 12:44:45 AM: AEN: Scenery is just colors and shades of color, the colors don't create objects. Distance is lighter color and decrease in size, however there's no abiding object which increases or decreases in size since these appearances are only found in the immediacy, no object within or behind appearance, no subject within or behind appearance. Movement is patterns of color. Fully experience.

13/4/13 12:48:34 AM: Thusness: Ted is abt full exertion but I hv commented in -a +a

13/4/13 12:48:46 AM: Thusness: Both r imp

13/4/13 12:49:23 AM: AEN: So "It is better to perfect and mature insight of anatta and total exertion then isn't everything clear, non-dual, luminous, boundless and illusionary?"

13/4/13 12:49:34 AM: AEN: Should not include illusionary isn't it

13/4/13 12:50:57 AM: Thusness: It is only when ur experience is mature coz experience is pervaded with radiance clarity

13/4/13 12:51:52 AM: AEN: Does that lead to illusionary? Doesn't AF experience radiance clarity?

13/4/13 12:52:16 AM: Thusness: Not experience is pervaded but experience is the radiance clarity

13/4/13 12:52:35 AM: AEN: Ic

13/4/13 12:53:46 AM: Thusness: Is color solid?

13/4/13 12:54:28 AM: Thusness: Does sensation give solidity?

13/4/13 12:54:34 AM: Thusness: Sound?

13/4/13 12:54:39 AM: Thusness: Taste?

13/4/13 12:54:47 AM: Thusness: Or thoughts?

13/4/13 12:54:58 AM: AEN: No

13/4/13 12:56:03 AM: Thusness: If u say u experience real, solid, inherent, true sort of experience, how can u say u hv mature ur insights?

13/4/13 12:57:11 AM: AEN: But maturing insight in terms of emptiness not necessarily just radiance aspect isn't it

13/4/13 12:57:24 AM: Thusness: How is it possible for one to say such thing if in the six entries and exits there is no any solidity found?

13/4/13 12:57:36 AM: AEN: I see

13/4/13 12:58:24 AM: Thusness: Instead understand one has not deconstructed thoroughly



10:50pm
AEN

basically

if there's a pith instruction, i would point him to the mahamudra type of contemplation

it worked for me

i wasnt directly contemplating on thusness's instruction then but its similar (emptiness section in http://awakeningtoreality.blogspot.com.au/2009/03/on-anatta-emptiness-and-spontaneous.html)

in particular i was reading and contemplating on this one then insight arose: http://luminousemptiness.blogspot.com.au/2008/11/niguma-vajra-verses-of-self-liberating.html

....

Something I wrote on that link two years ago:



An Eternal Now said...

Hi Chodpa,

Just like to thank you for your sharing... you have a gift in expressing the inexpressible.

This article triggered the 'my' realization of the magic of luminous and empty apparitions... and the seeing of this is amazing, marvellous, wonderful, blissful, freeing.

I wrote to wrote an email to PasserBy/Thusness titled "the unborn dharma":

"In attempting to find and locate where thought comes from, reside, and go to, it is realised that thought is ungraspable, unfindable, unfathomable... A magicians magical apparition, like everything (the experiential universe) is... A wonderful display of luminous emptiness, dependent origination. Yet after this is seen, it is nothing resembling nihilism or non-existence... When someone lights up his lighter to burn an innocent ant, compassion just arise... A magical universe demands magical response and compassion from no one to no one"

(more about it in my e-book http://awakeningtoreality.blogspot.com/2010/12/my-e-booke-journal.html )

Thanks...
1:46 pm

RE: A verse of twofold emptiness
Answer
4/23/13 8:45 AM as a reply to An Eternal Now.
An Eternal Now:
Hi Seraphis, you misread my statement. I was answering Nick's question about what I mean by externality.

Five skandhas are unreal and illusory just like a dream or a magician's trick.


I see. Thank you.

You've got email.

s.

RE: A verse of twofold emptiness
Answer
4/26/13 1:31 AM as a reply to Seraph .'..
[quote=Seraph .'.]
An Eternal Now:
Hi Seraphis, you misread my statement. I was answering Nick's question about what I mean by externality.

Five skandhas are unreal and illusory just like a dream or a magician's trick.


I see. Thank you.

You've got email.

s.I find this youtube video very interesting.

Seems like modern quantum physics views of wave-particle and Buddha's teachings on Phena Sutta and Mahamudra's pointing out 'where does a thought come from and go to and where does it abide?' is identical.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4HtR7nESmkQ

Thusness wrote in 2006:

Hi Longchen,

You may want to grab the book ‘The Spiritual Universe’ by Fred Alan Wolf, it is a good read. He is a Ph.D in theoretical physics and described matter as follows:

“…Matter seemingly solid when observed on a scale of inches and seconds, was mostly empty space with tiny bits of something call probability clouds filling that space. These clouds are fundamental particles’ ‘tendencies to exist’ to somehow pop out of nothing and become coherent matter…”

If quantum reality is as what he described, then yes. In terms of reality as a “flux”, “tendencies to exist”, “non-locality” and collapsing of quantum waves, it is in line with Buddhist thought. One additional point I need to stress, the process itself knows. This point is missing. emoticon

- http://sgforums.com/forums/1728/topics/194898

RE: A verse of twofold emptiness
Answer
4/26/13 2:32 AM as a reply to An Eternal Now.
An Eternal Now:
[quote=Seraph .'.]
An Eternal Now:
Hi Seraphis, you misread my statement. I was answering Nick's question about what I mean by externality.

Five skandhas are unreal and illusory just like a dream or a magician's trick.


I see. Thank you.

You've got email.

s.
I find this youtube video very interesting.

Seems like modern quantum physics views of wave-particle and Buddha's teachings on Phena Sutta and Mahamudra's pointing out 'where does a thought come from and go to and where does it abide?' is identical.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4HtR7nESmkQ

Thusness wrote in 2006:

Hi Longchen,

You may want to grab the book ‘The Spiritual Universe’ by Fred Alan Wolf, it is a good read. He is a Ph.D in theoretical physics and described matter as follows:

“…Matter seemingly solid when observed on a scale of inches and seconds, was mostly empty space with tiny bits of something call probability clouds filling that space. These clouds are fundamental particles’ ‘tendencies to exist’ to somehow pop out of nothing and become coherent matter…”

If quantum reality is as what he described, then yes. In terms of reality as a “flux”, “tendencies to exist”, “non-locality” and collapsing of quantum waves, it is in line with Buddhist thought. One additional point I need to stress, the process itself knows. This point is missing. emoticon

- http://sgforums.com/forums/1728/topics/194898

"the process itself knows"

The process itself happens. The difference between happening and consciousness is way less than western materialists assume. A being's consciousness through five of the sense doors is the happening of energy generated by information tuned to the occurrence of events outside the sense doors. Causally there's a link, but the events we perceive are not conscious for us any more than our seeing the sun is knowledge of being the sun.

RE: A verse of twofold emptiness
Answer
4/26/13 4:48 AM as a reply to Matthew Horn.
Matthew Horn:

The process itself happens. The difference between happening and consciousness is way less than western materialists assume. A being's consciousness through five of the sense doors is the happening of energy generated by information tuned to the occurrence of events outside the sense doors. Causally there's a link, but the events we perceive are not conscious for us any more than our seeing the sun is knowledge of being the sun.
The is 0 difference between happening and consciousness... consciousness is itself the happening. The scenery seen is self-seen, the sound heard is self-heard, there is no sound apart from sound-consciousness nor a consciousness apart from the experience we call scenery, sound, scent, etc. Never was there a seer or a hearer.

But even after this truth of anatta is realized, further steps to deconstruct notions of objective reality is still important... the notion that there is a truly existing sun 'out there' (or 'in here') itself is to be investigated and challenged.

RE: A verse of twofold emptiness
Answer
1/2/14 7:52 AM as a reply to An Eternal Now.
Emptiness Rambles by Piotr Ludwiński


Piotr Ludwiński wrote:

You think that you liberate
play of luminous form
from "who/what/where/when/how/why" cage
you have yourself created...

But luminous form...

Luminous form
Does not appear on it's own
Does not abide on it's own
Does not cease on it's own

Luminous form
Does not alternate between absence and presence

Neither by it's own power
Nor by power of another luminous form
Does it switch from absence to presence
And again from presence to absence

How could luminous form be pinned down?
How could "it" arise?
How could "it" abide?
How could "it" cease?

By cutting branches
but leaving root in tact
you will never realize suchness
you ignorant fool!

You might have
realized that "seer seeing seen" is mistake
and have seen through
agent and his action

But isn't expression
"it appears here and now"
exactly same mistake
you are repeating again?

You have taken out your hands out of dirt
But why do still you stand on two legs in it?

You might have
seen through universal and individual agent
but now why do you make
infinite agents as infinite luminous forms?

For luminous form
to alternate between presence and absence
to appear or disappear
is to pin down luminous form as agent who does something

Free yourself from
the seer who sees

Free yourself from
it that appears

Again and again
look at your mind

See that time and space
Are also dreams dependent
on your three-fold dream
of subject, action and object!

~ from me to myself!
---------

Firstfold emptying: subjective universal/individual agency

- active agent "Seer sees", "doer does", "choicer choices", "controller controls", "coordinator coordinates", "that which appears as everything"
- inactive agent "background against which appearances arise", "substance out of which appearances are made of"

result: non-action, non-duality, no global source/substance

quote: "Then, Bāhiya, you should train yourself thus: In reference to the seen, there will be only the seen. In reference to the heard, only the heard. In reference to the sensed, only the sensed. In reference to the cognized, only the cognized. That is how you should train yourself. When for you there will be only the seen in reference to the seen, only the heard in reference to the heard, only the sensed in reference to the sensed, only the cognized in reference to the cognized, then, Bāhiya, there is no you in connection with that. When there is no you in connection with that, there is no you there. When there is no you there, you are neither here nor yonder nor between the two. This, just this, is the end of stress." Gautama Buddha, Ud 1.10

Secondfold emptying: objective agency

- active agents "appearances arising/abiding/ceasing by their own power"
- inactive agents "appearances arise/abide/cease by the power of other"

result: interconnectedness, non-arising

quote: "Neither from itself nor from another,
Nor from both,
Nor without a cause,
Does anything whatever, anywhere arise. " Nagarjuna, MMK 1.1

Twofold emptying: no subjective and no objective agency
- subject is empty
- action is empty
- object is empty
- time is empty
- space is empty

result: emptiness/clarity inseparable
quote1: ""Thus, monks, the Tathagata, when seeing what is to be seen, doesn't construe an [object as] seen. He doesn't construe an unseen. He doesn't construe an to-be-seen. He doesn't construe a seer.

"When hearing...

"When sensing...

"When cognizing what is to be cognized, he doesn't construe an [object as] cognized. He doesn't construe an uncognized. He doesn't construe an to-be-cognized. He doesn't construe a cognizer.

Thus, monks, the Tathagata — being the same with regard to all phenomena that can be seen, heard, sensed, & cognized — is 'Such.' And I tell you: There's no other 'Such' higher or more sublime." Gautama Buddha, An 4.24

quote2:'
"When the Bodhisattva Avalokitesvara."

"Was Coursing in the Deep Prajna Paramita."

"He Perceived That All Five Skandhas Are Empty."

"Thus He Overcame All Ills and Suffering."

"Oh, Sariputra, Form Does not Differ From the Void,
And the Void Does Not Differ From Form.
Form is Void and Void is Form;
The Same is True For Feelings,
Perceptions, Volitions and Consciousness."

"Sariputra, the Characteristics of the
Voidness of All Dharmas
Are Non-Arising, Non-Ceasing, Non-Defiled,
Non-Pure, Non-Increasing, Non-Decreasing."

"Therefore, in the Void There Are No Forms,
No Feelings, Perceptions, Volitions or Consciousness."

"No Eye, Ear, Nose, Tongue, Body or Mind;
No Form, Sound, Smell, Taste, Touch or Mind Object;
No Realm of the Eye,
Until We Come to No realm of Consciousness."

"No ignorance and Also No Ending of Ignorance,
Until We Come to No Old Age and Death and
No Ending of Old Age and Death."

"Also, There is No Truth of Suffering,
Of the Cause of Suffering,
Of the Cessation of Suffering, Nor of the Path."

"There is No Wisdom, and There is No Attainment Whatsoever."

"Because There is Nothing to Be Attained,
The Bodhisattva Relying On Prajna Paramita Has
No Obstruction in His Mind."
[Commentary on above text]

"Because There is No Obstruction, He Has no Fear,"

"And He passes Far Beyond Confused Imagination."

"And Reaches Ultimate Nirvana."

"The Buddhas of the Past, Present and Future,
By Relying on Prajna Paramita
Have Attained Supreme Enlightenment."

"Therefore, the Prajna Paramita is the Great Magic Spell,
The Spell of Illumination, the Supreme Spell,
Which Can Truly Protect One From All Suffering Without Fail."

"Therefore He Uttered the Spell of Prajnaparmita,
Saying Gate, Gate, Paragate, Parasamgate, Bodhi Svaha." Heart Sutra

RE: A verse of twofold emptiness
Answer
1/2/14 8:13 AM as a reply to An Eternal Now.
The true face of our pristine nature
Manifests unreservedly and miraculously,
As the transience that arises and subsides.
Thoroughly real, discrete and complete,
Arises but not arising from,
Subsides but not subsiding to,
Completely free from the erroneous view of a who, where and when,
Fully unsupported, unfindable and essence-less
Luminous yet empty,
This alone is liberation!

~ Thusness, September 21, 2008

RE: A verse of twofold emptiness
Answer
1/11/14 2:47 PM as a reply to An Eternal Now.
In deep contemplation, it can become apparent in direct experience and insight that all appearances are merely appearances, nothing arising or staying or ceasing... there is no actual birth of anything. Just like no matter what images appear on the movie or in a dream it will never amount to anything more than an appearance, without anything that truly come into existence. This is different from resolving non-arising through being-time. Lastly it is not that things are mental projections but that they are dependent arising.. what dependently originates is empty and nonarising appearance... momentary suchness, but still as vivid.

It is with some reluctance that I'm sharing this... I'm afraid that writing this might be a disservice to readers. I shall refrain from posting and discussing further about this. I do not wish this to become merely something to talk about, it has to be seen in direct taste and insight... so that one knows what the experience is like and what the realization is. Spouting big words or philosophizing about this do not mean anything.

Anyway Piotr shared some nice quotations:

In the Prajñāpāramitā Sutras, the Buddha taught:


No beginning is perceptible,

No end is perceptible,

And nothing in between is perceptible either. [The Sun of Wisdom]

"In the sutras, the Buddha explained:


When one’s hands, two sticks, and one’s effort of rubbing the sticks come together,

From these conditions, fire arises,

And after arising and performing its function, it quickly ceases.

But when the wise ones ask,

“Where did it come from and where did it go?”

They look in all directions, but never find any occurrence of its coming or going.



So it is with the aggregates, sources of consciousness, and potentials—

They do not exist inside and they do not exist outside;

All are free of self-entity,

And they do not abide anywhere.

The defining characteristic of phenomena is that they are of the essence of space." [The Sun of Wisdom]