This is from a series of talks on papañca , available on Audio Dharma. In the talk labeled part 3, during the Q&A, someone asks, "What is stream entry? Can you define it for us?" To which Than Geoff elaborates:


I think this ties in very nicely to a "koan" often posed by Ajahn Chah. As related by Ajahn Amaro, when referring to the place of non-abiding.


In a way, it's pretty heady stuff until it isn't. Like all good koans, I guess

That pretty much matches psychology on willpower. There's always a little stress in perception. The intention to pay attention also has a little stress. Good stuff!

Really interesting description, I haven't heard it put like that before. Thanks for sharing

Hah, nice, Chris! Almost exactly a year ago, you went through the trouble of transcribing the very same passage. I guess we both thought it was important enough to highlight

I was there when he gave the day-long talk on papanca (April 28, 2012).

The answer on Stream-Entry impressed the hell out of me, so to speak -- unforgetable, inspiring. He was answering a question, and really didn't claim anything, but it struck me as a description from personal experience.

(This passage comes, in the Q/A part, ca. 5 minutes from the end of part 2 MP3 file from audiodharma.)

Thank you for also digging that out and bringing it up.

"you realize whicherver way you intend, there's going to be stress"

What Thanissaro describes here, couldn't we say that this is also what happens in equanimity towards formations stage (without going through jhanas as he describes)? I still didn't hit SE but sometimes, in my deepest meditations I've had (and I don't do jhana practice), I get to a point where there's a feeling of stillness in me, and there's a feeling that this stillness is still fragile/stressful in subtle ways, and my mind feels unintersted in pursuing any objects arising. It's like my mind looses interest in generating any intention, or any formations, towards anything. I find Thanissaro's description is similar to that.

Than-Geoff's framework there is single-minded focus on 1st-3rd "Noble Truths" -- discerning dukkha and disarming it. The words may be similar ("description"); is your framework, motivation similar?

that is a description of 'the middle way' if i've ever heard it.

Yes it is:

~~"I get to a point where there's a feeling of stillness in me, and there's a feeling that this stillness is still fragile/stressful in subtle ways.."

Here, think 1st Noble truth. The stillness is seen as dukkha. It is a fabricated state and therefore fragile, inconstant.

~~"and my mind feels unintersted in pursuing any objects arising. It's like my mind looses interest in generating any intention, or any formations, towards anything"

Here think 1st and second NT. The mind recognizes how grasping at any objects brings stress in the mind, since they are inconstant, therefore the mind loses interest in pursuing them, which is the task of the 2nd NT, namely to let go of grasping.

As for the 3rd NT, I trust that it will be realized in time with the above process: recognize dukkha in all formations - leading to letting go of grasping - leading to cessation.

My motivation is indeed to accomplish this.

re: Chris J Macie(3/18/16 7:05 AM as a reply to Ben V)

An interesting, perhaps in some way "redeeming" aspect of Than-Geoff's approach is that he does not buy into the jhana-wars; goes a long way, in fact, towards defusing them. He just focuses on concentration as a platform for insight, and concentration as an object that yields more insight.

Although his teacher (actually teacher of his teacher) Ajahn Lee goes into specific jhana stuff, in a s/w original way (in TG's translation of Lee's teaching, in "Keeping the Breath in Mind" http://www.accesstoinsight.org/lib/thai/lee/inmind.html), TG himself, in his essay "Jhana Not by the Numbers" (thanks to someone here for pointing this article out recently http://www.accesstoinsight.org/lib/authors/thanissaro/jhananumbers.html), points out that his teacher, Ajahn Fuang (student of Ajahn Lee) avoided talking about "jhana" per se, but rather pressed his students to investigate concentration-insight methodology however it made sense and worked for the student. One could say it doesn't matter if you experience "jhana" or, to borrow from outside the Thai-Forest framework, if you experience "vipassana khanika samadhi" (Mahasi's term and arguably embedded in MTCB ); or (back in Thai-Forest territory) you go from whole-body awareness into concentration and insight (also Goenka?).

I find that approach rewardingly practical. As much as I enjoy the Abhidhamma /Visudhimagga style detailed stages schemas intellectually, when it comes to on-the-cushion exploration, the interesting stuff arises in the absence of the analytical conceptualizing, not trying to identify and chase after "stages". Paradoxical. It boils down to just learning to recognize and get to know dukkha more and more exactly, and figuring out ways of uprooting it, one step at a time.

btw: My guess is TG likely had personal contact with Ajahn Chah also; he's translated some of Chah's writings from Thai into English as well.

Yes I like Thanissaro's practical approach. In his book 'Wings of Awakening', if I remember the title correctly, he even briefly mentions the Mahasi noting method and discuss how the stages described in that approach correspond to the jhanas. He doesn't attack the other effective approaches like some Jhana teachers unfortunately do.