Forum: Dharma Overground Discussion Forum


I thought this was a pretty relevant article given our recent discussions:

http://www.shinzen.org/Retreat%20Reading/Return%20to%20the%20Source.pdf


- Martin

Excellent article!

I agree with Hokai. This article is great. Thanks for the link!

Author: Adam_West

Yeah, he's good! :-P

In kind regards,

Adam,.

I found one quotation particularly interesting...

"If you Do Nothing long and continuously enough, nothing will begin to tug on you, taking you on a journey to Zero, Groundless Ground, the Source of consciousness. In other words, you don’t have to try to get to the Source—you just stop doing anything and wait for it to get to you!"

This sounds much like Kenneth's hypothesis that doing No-Dog practice is one that leads to "completing the physio-energetic circuit" or having "unfettered access to the Source." In other words, it could be suggested that if one can do this practice well enough and often enough, it will lead to arhatship.

Thoughts?

Jackson

Author: Adam_West

Hi Jackson!

In my experience and interpretation, what you said is exactly right. It further seems to me that even just doing enough meditation of 'any' type, one eventually notices that we don't have to 'do anything' to realise source - the natural state, or original face. In this way, active "intentional" methodology organically drops away and we rest as 'that' more and more; both in formal meditation, and then as depth and stability takes effect, increasingly throughout the day. That is how it seems to me. :-) The resting as is, does not presuppose passivity or sloth of any kind, as the lens of source, so to speak, does not exclude bright and dynamic being, in fact, in my experience, personal realization of it gives the appearance of those very features; nor does environmental engagement exclude the stable realization of the natural state. However, such mastery does imply advanced accomplishment.

In kind regards,

Adam. :-)

Hi Adam,

What you're saying feels "right" intuitively, but can you be a bit more specific about the "any type" of meditation?

How would you place masters of concentration who yet don't seem to realize anything resembling "source"? In other words, could meditating to solidify my opinions and preferences into total opacity get me to realize source just as decomposing them into great transparency does?

I haven't read the piece by Shinzen Young yet, maybe this question is redundant. Still, I'd be interested in your take.

Cheers,
Florian

Author: Adam_West

@Florian: In other words, could meditating to solidify my opinions and preferences into total opacity get me to realize source just as decomposing them into great transparency does?

Lol!!! That's a classic man! Thanks for the giggle!! ;-)

What I mean is, pick any of the cessation-contemplation practices found throughout the world from any of the traditions – east and west - and work with it in its traditional format - with consistency and all out practice, as dictated by said tradition; and over time one will make progress according to the standards of that tradition. At some point, sooner or later, depending on a host factors, one will start to have intuitive flashes or glimpses of non-dual awareness where one sees through the sense of self, and realizes the fundamental nature of reality. These glimpses will vary in depth, clarity, and stability. As this happens more and more, one will notice that volitional, intentional practice is sourced in the sense of separate self, and in these early stages of break-through, continued 'ego-centred' efforts will interrupt or obstruct non-dual awareness, and instantly place one back in ego-centred consciousness. Thus, over time, one simply learns to let go of the ego-centred intentionality as one feels it breaking down and non-dual awareness comes into the foreground more and more. With further sitting, one learns that the intentional practice, whatever it is, is no longer useful to noticing non-dual awareness which is the very essence of your own awareness – your unchanging, ever-present fundamental nature as-it-is. Hence, you realize you no longer need to do anything to be what you already are, and doing so, simply obstructs, or gets in your own way. This is an organic evolution of practice and insight into your fundamental nature.

[cont]

Author: Adam_West

We can say on a developmental level, from the relative first-person perspective, there is the steady development or evolution of consciousness (as distinct from awareness), which becomes increasingly purified of conditioning; ever more stable, vital, bright and clear of obstructions, such that, it is increasingly effortless to notice its (or your) clear luminous ground of being – pure awareness or Buddha Nature. Keep in mind though, at any time in this apparent development of conditioned mind, one may see through the illusion of self. Hence, realization of the natural state is not dependent on development of the temporal self. However, it would seem, said development does make realization more probable.

These are simply my own views based on work in my own practice. Hence, they are my opinions and not to be taken as traditional views supported by authority figures or textual reference; and are very much fallible. I am of course aware of a similar correlation amongst a great many traditions.

Nice talking with you, Florian. Hope that helps! :-)

In kind regards,

Adam.

Author: msj123

Shinzen always talks that if you do the technique long enough, the mind will rewire itself. What this means to me is:

1) Realization is not based on a single experience or set of experiences. I've seen "through" my ego many times, but it still comes back. Why? Because of my habitual thought patterns. Shinzen teaches that these patterns can be changed. Doing the technique over and over again, he says, changes the mind on a very deep level. He calls this the "trickle down theory of enlightenment."

a. I think this point causes people to misidentify how enlightened they are. I've had such and such experience, so therefore I'm enlightened. Ken Wilbur talks about the difference between a state and a stage which I find helpful.

2) You need to keep doing the practice a million, zillion, kajillion times until it really sinks in.

3) Doing nothing, or existing in a natural state, is in fact a very advanced activity that can only be realized after spending a lot of time in an unnatural state, or technique. This confusion leads to pop new age religion and neo-advaita slogans that don't do anyone a lot of good. In the trial arena, I had a teacher once tell me: Only the practiced hand makes a natural gesture. I've seen a lot of Zen people who "just sit" and after years, seemed to have gained nothing from the practice. I think this results from this confusion.

Hi msj123,

Great points. Regarding point #3, I agree that it can be misleading to instruct inexperienced meditators to begin with what we know to be advanced practices. I wasn't able to do this type of practice well until sometime after getting 2nd Path. But for whatever reason, I think some people can access the no-dog relatively early, even before attaining stream-entry. It's hard to know for sure whether someone is ready for this type of practice, including one's self. I guess the general rule should be -- if you can access the Nothing/No-Dog, it's worthwhile to do so as a practice.

Jackson

Hi Adam,

I'm glad you liked my characterization. Thanks for the clear explanation. I've read the article meanwhile - good one.

Cheers,
Florian

another article i liked from there although it s not about no dog
http://www.shinzen.org/Home.asp?id=default&topframe=FrameArticles.htm&bottomframe=/shinsub3/artEscape.htm#REF1

Another rly good one (about thought):

http://www.shinzen.org/shinsub3/artEmptyMind.htm

Speaking of Shinzen, he has a bunch of talks recently added to YouTube:

http://www.youtube.com/user/expandcontract

Enjoy!

this place is such a shinzen fan club. maybe we should collectively invite shinzen to come and contribute to the the new site once its up and running? thoughts?

I notice several compatibilites between Shinzen and Daniel's explanations of the path, including the appreciation of traditional Buddhist concepts and techniques but a lack of clinging to dogma, the trans-spiritual perspective, the emphasis on vibrations, the straightforward and articulate explanations, the down-to-earth style.

I came across Daniel Ingram by looking for Shinzen's interview on the Buddhist Geeks podcast website, which is an excellent site. In my personal experience, their presentations of the path have been complementary in helping me learn.

Maybe I'm just a Buddhist Geek.

Hey All,

Just discovered this site through Buddhist Geeks conversation with Daniel. My copy of his book is in the mail. I've been studying with Shinzen for about five years now and have watched his teaching evolve. I'm thrilled to read down this thread and discover that many of you see the compatibility of these approaches.

Keep an eye on the www.basicmindfulness.com phone retreat calendar. He frequently does a four-hour session on the Return to the Source strategy. I don't see one coming up over the next couple of months, however. But you can also find many of his other articles here.

I'm looking forward to joining this overall exploration and discussion with you.

haha. Shinzen's #1 fan here ;)

seriously, it would be rockin' if we could invite Shinzen to DhO. imho, he's the most well-rounded Buddhist geek who could talk in all domains of science, religion, meditation with such skill and precision. he's funny too.

btw, there will be interview videos of Shinzen coming out soon wherein he answers some questions submitted by students. i asked questions on self-inquiry, developmental stages, and even lucid dreaming. will post a link here once it's up

~C