Forum: Dharma Overground Discussion Forum


Hi, first of all I decided to de-lurk. I've been lurking around since late March this year. A couple of days after my first conscious A&P event. I crossed this stage on the 7th day of my 2nd 10-day Goenka course. Having practised anywhere from 45 min to 2 hours a day in between courses which were about six weeks apart. Although probably not all sittings could be called practise, as there was a lot of dwelling in content going on.

I am sorry if I am about to embark on a long rant. I've just been in this thinking/writing frenzy, and 'it' needs to get out in some way or the other.

Post A&P I gathered up all the information on this site I could as well as reading Daniel's book.I booked my next retreat beginning of May which was 9-day Mahasi-style retreat lead by a monk ordained in the Mahasi Sayadaw tradition at Gaia House, Devon, UK. As travel readings I brought with me a book copy of MTCB, 'Practical Insight Meditation', by Ven. Mahasi Sayadaw,
tarin's 'The Reformed Slacker's Guide to Stream-Entry' (just in case).

The day before I was scheduled to embark on my retreat, difficult family conditions ensued in direct relation to my decision
to go yet on another retreat. I didn't have much insight into dealing with complicated family related emotional issues in the first place, nevertheless form a Dark Night point of view. Therefore my resolve to learn the Mahasi style noting technique and apply it as diligently as possible in order to reach higher states/stages was very strong. Hopefully post retreat I would be in a clearer, calmer space to avoid messing up completely. I resolved to not allow any slacking whatsoever, every minute was precious.
Soon I found myself on the retreat following all the instructions all day long including every so mundane action.

The first couple of days were rough to say the least, heavy emotional raptures, anger, irritation, feelings about hitting something (or someone really hard). I duly noted.
I started getting creative with the noting trying to catch as close as possible what was manifesting in conceptual meaning. Yet I also explored vibrations, in specific areas of the body, watching them as closely as I could. Occasionally there was some nodding off, especially in the early morning.
By the 2nd evening I found my mental state shifting into a calmer space. The next day I was sailing all the way on that calmness accompanied by a rich sensory experience and seemingly effortless perceptual abilities. In the evening I dragged out the MTCB book and after reading the chapter on equanimity I decided then an there this had to be what I was indeed experiencing. The 4th day I was again exploring more the depth and breadth of this state, but also obsessively anticipating something 'Big' to happen. I simply noted mapping, searching, imagining and strong images that would arise. That afternoon there was a group and an individual interview. After reporting my meditation experience with as precise detail I possibly could . the teacher helped me resolve my issue of putting too much effort and anticipation into the noting. He pointed out that there needed
to be a balance between calmness and effort. That evening before going to sleep, I made a strong resolution to reach 'Stream Entry'.

I am aware that it is entirely possible I got myself into such a giddy state that I was imagining that I was in equanimity when in fact it was another A&P. I guess only the test of time will tell. I'm still putting this out there, even if I have to embarrassingly review this stage as something that it was not. Just to prove the fact that one can psych themselves into imagining this territory, given obsessive mapping, thinking and analysing.

Nevertheless this is were I thought I was, so I resolved that I had to reach Stream Entry as soon as possible. I had only 4 more days left to do this!!
Throughout the next morning. I resolved this before each sitting. I was noting more and more the feelings that arose, the anticipation, even anxiety when my breath was dropping into a bottomless, black vortex-like hole, utterly disconnected from different sensations framing different thoughts. I noted trying to focus on this where was the observer, where was this 'I' located. I noted questioning. By the time the next group interview I was so wound up with this state of confusion, mapping, the vast expanse of sensations intermingling . I proceeded after everyone had discussed their knee pain, back pain, whether or not yoga could help, to confess my anxiety about into waves of sensations, going round in circles and obsessively noting. The teacher replied "ah, yes, the self is dissolving, fear is its last barrier" He encouraged me to try and let the feelings of this anxiety to fully present themselves and be with this as fully as possible and to not be afraid. Having his endorsement and faith in the technique I returned to the cushion and resolved to attain Stream Entry, to be with everything that arises as fully as possible. half way through the sit I got lost in something. Something about an image of the breathing, with the thought of effort, noting the effort of concentrating and then something else ...My mind was suddenly completely clear, completely concentrated and nothing was there to note, or fancy. There wasn't even a pronounced sense of enquiry, or wondering. It was somehow asking " what the eff what do i do now?". I sat and waiting, for 'something' or rather to indicate please, please make sense of this. Then I got up, wondered off outside, to a cow paddock on a hill slope, lay down stared at the sky and out into the countryside, utterly spaced out.

When I returned to the sittings I could't meditate, it was not that I couldn't sit or concentrate, but whatever I tried to focus on for too long just got too strong for me to handle. I thought my brain would seize at some point. i would just sit, trying to do nothing in particular, just ride it out somehow. Lots of thoughts kept popping up, yet I couldn't seperate from them or note them properly. All I wanted to do was sit somewhere comfortable and flow with the moment, or wandering outdoors in the country-side somewhere looking at nature. I was perfectly blissed out and peaceful, and strangely energised. The following morning at the beginning at the first sit, I noticed states of confusion and doubt arising, it couldn't possibly be 'it' could it? however there wasn't much I could do about it anyway, I just had to continue practising. Then halfway through the sit, bliss wave, spaced out. This repeated again throughout the sits. The next day, it would take maybe five minutes, then I noticed at meals, ah there is this confusion , doubt thing again, some wormy, floaty thing, and then like shifting into a higher gear, completely vanished. I repeated this while travelling home, while waiting at the gate for my flight, on the subway. I noticed something in my vision would be affected I would try and see lights blurring, pulsing, it was as if my vision was a bit fuzzy a more yellowish colour and then 'shift' bright lights, everything solid, hard edges everywhere. Currently I am slightly suffering from tremblings in my body, my neck stiffening, my jaw jarring, my head pulsing.

Everything is the same, but yet with a different aspects more pronounced, like seeing stuff more clearly. When listening to music it sounds like before I was in mono land and now I have stereo. Things are things, people are people and there seems
be less of a filter through. Okay I could go on and on ... clearly high as a kite, my preferred mode would be to chill out, the only thing is that has completely thrown me off kilter, is trying to make sense of Everything, trying to spot the changes, knowing it can be done, doing it, in such little time, with comparative ease.

I quickly browsed through what you've written and it sounds like you are on the right track. Whether or not this is where you are, I don't know; but it sounds like the succession of your post was: first path dark night, equanimity, stream entry, and lastly second path cause and effect. IF that is correct, and I'm not at all saying that it is or isn't, just keep it up. 2nd path can be had very quickly after 1st if conditions are right; consider reading some of the "pages" on this site about methods for gaining 2nd path.

The alternative is that you are sliding around in the first dark night and equanimity, which is entirely possible. I think your teacher's advice was good, and not a bad idea for all parts of the path. So if you honest investigation yields that you have not had a Fruition, then his advice is a good place to redouble your efforts.

Anyhow, it is natural to feel anxiety, doubt, fear, etc, and these things are cyclical (not just in the insight sense of the word). Do your best to keep practicing hard and you will make sense of it as you can, as you progress.

Goodluck,
Trent

Hi Maya81,

I don't have much to add to what Trent said beyond, Good Job! Keep it up!

Did you discuss the later developments with the leader of the retreat? It would be interesting to know what he had to say about the experiences you went through after you took his advice.

On the Family Issues front you will probably find Toxic Evangelism Hardcore Dharma and Relationships to be very useful.
http://dharmaoverground.wetpaint.com/page/Toxic+Evangelism%2C+Hardcore+Dharma+and+Relationships

Ed

i completely agree with trent's assessment; you wrote a classic description of a skilled meditator powering through the dark night, shifting into equanimity, creatively doing whatever it takes to navigate the territory and fine tune into high equanimity, dropping through the formless realms and reaching the end of the world.

its also almost exactly how it happened for me (your account of those few days), which is interesting, because while i did not write an account of it in my guide, it was that 'style of awakening' that shaped how i wrote it.

congrats, and good job.

http://tinyurl.com/q2gg2a

The description of your experience on both sides of your possible fruition remind me very much of what I think may have been either my 2nd (my guess) or 1st path fruition just last week while on a Goenka 10-day retreat (my 1st). In my case, the unknowing event was preceded by very strong, fine concentration followed by a blip of averting of that concentration, then a blip of something else, then what was either one or two mind moments where the strobing of my visual field missed a beat and...nothing. In retrospect, I don't know if those last 2 happened together or not. On the other end of it, the vibratory field was completely different. It seemed my mind was out of phase with the vibratory field that all of a sudden was more complex and I found it impossible to do anything that felt like the vipassana that I had been doing up to that point. I seemed to notice more vibrations simultaneously than I ever had before, the resolution to which I could detect subtle phenomena was much finer, and I seemed to have insight into two problems with my practice that may have made things more difficult for the last few days. My brain hemispheric dominance seemed to be extremely rightward at that moment, which seemed to have had somthing to do with the difficulty I had with synchronizing with particular vibrations as I was moving through the nanas. Also, I realized that I had begun to map my body in the optical cortex in order to deal with the difficulties I had with the body-scanning technique. For the next 2 days I kept faltering in what I thought was equanimity of the next cycle. At the end of those two days, while investigating what seemed like the same territory, it now seemed like I was in disolution. This was when I realized that the various layers of the nanas that I barely noticed in the previous cycle had become much more complex and confusing.

For the rest of the retreat after the event I seemed to be able to detect very clearly the mind shifting through the nanas while not meditating, and to be able to control hemispheric balance. Frustratingly, I still could not detect any fruitions at the end of these cycles, the same situation that caused me to wonder if the similar unknowing event I had about six months ago was my 1st path fruition. After only 9 months of practice, I suppose it would be premature to make any definite proclamations on what's what. Things have calmed down quite a bit since the end of the retreat, the only differences I notice now are that I have a greater ability to objectively view my emotional state and vipassana has become much more difficult, I will probably need to buckle down and actually "get" noting if I wish to continue to progress. Soon after the retreat, I had major dark night bleed-through for most of a day. Thankfully, no major permanent damage was done. The experience reminded me how much more I need to learn. Unfortunately, it seems I may have flown from one dark night before the retreat, into another. Perhaps my experience will bring some more of your experience into focus.

Keith

P.S. I noticed that you had used strong intention to attain fruition prior to your event. I also did so several time using simple magical techniques I learned from the work of Alan Chapman and Duncan Barford (from The Baptist's Head, who also post here). Alan and Duncan, thanks guys! I also believe that my HGA came to me in one of the unnaturally vivid and rapid-entry REM dreams I had on retreat in order to give me advice on how to proceed by looking for something regarding the breath. Unfortunately, writing materials were not available!

Hi Maya81,
Thank you so much for that post! Definitely a keeper! "Following instructions" indeed. Well done! Oh, and I really hope your family situation is calming down now.

It's great to have you here.

Cheers,
Florian

For all those claiming stream entry, or thinking they may have...

I'd be really careful when making strong assessments about these things soon after... It is possible to cross the A&P, get into equanimity and fall back and keep going from the dark night to equanimity. This can seem like cycling, but if you don't recall a clear unknowing event (that isn't the A&P and they are really similar) then that wasn't it. Also, after 1st path cycling often becomes quite easy and there is a period of "review" where you will experience fruition perhaps a couple times a day. If you still aren't noticing fruitions there, I'd say it's very suspect as to whether or not you got stream entry.

In either case, the same rules apply: keep practicing well. It's also helpful to have in-person discussions with people who know this territory inside-and-out, rather than just getting a quick assessment here on the DhO. Even better is to discuss it with a teacher that you're practicing with, if that is possible. They will know your practice better than anyone else, having been there with you through your different phases. I remember having many discussions with both Daniel and Kenneth pre- and post-1st path and this kind of in-depth dialogue really helped me sort out what was what. It married the conceptual knowledge with the experiential so that I had a very clear idea of what I was looking for and what might happen. That said, I still had to practice well, let go of everything, and give up the notion, or rather the misidentification with the notion, that "I" was going to be the one who got enlightened. That is key, especially in equanimity.

So, congrats if you got 1st path, but I'd really be careful in jumping to conclusions, as it can really make it tricky to be in the dark night, and traverse that territory, if you're already convinced you're enlightened.

Thanks for the advice, Vince!

Yes, I know very well in my case that what has actually occurred is in question. I also realize that my apparent near lack of unknowing events after each of the 2 big ones are the weakest link in my claims.

Keith

Yes I completely agree. And that is precisely the point I am trying to make, to try and solidify an experience into what it is not, is a complete fantasy and a huge trap. Especially to someone like me who is new to this practise and only having 4 months of solid practise experience intermittent with three fairly short retreats. That's way too fast!

I didn't start the retreat thinking I could get Stream Entry, I went thinking I want to get out of the Dark Night as quickly as possible, in order to deal with 'stuff' more effectively! And then when suitable conditions arise, do a 2-3 month retreat at the big centres somewhere. It all just unfolded rather bizzarly and I persevered as strongly as I could until this pivotal moment when I couldn't do any noting whatsoever and just started to tune into everything around me, feeling dazed and my head started hurting if I tried to investigate anything too closely.

I talked to my teacher about this hesitant to let on that I was aware of the maps, and he just replied that there were times when one balances vipassana with samatha and 'quiet
abiding'. And I left it at that, knowing that is was completely impossible to attain any sort of certainty in these matters due to my lack of experience. So I just went with the flow. It wasn't like there was any sort of conscious desire to be doing anything in the first place. Part of this process is writing things down, communicating this experience with people who actually know what would potentially be going on, the traps and the dangers.

Again, Good Job! and Keep it up!

You have had very profound experiences that will lead you on to The Goal. Maybe you had a big A&P or maybe you got Stream Entry. Either way, keep following instructions, i.e. practice well, and you will know soon enough just where you are in the maps.

And in the meantime, don't screw up your family relationships too much. When my daughter was 16 or 17 my sister took her aside and told her, "You are growing up and that's great, Have fun, just don't screw up your life permanently." Good advice to anyone going through big changes/growth spurts.

Ed

you guys, i will eat my hat if that wasn't stream entry maya81 posted about. i understand the need for prudence on this matter, and similar, but it is good for these things to be discussed and openly, and on another note, good for new folks to see that more experienced members can be wrong sometimes (or even better, can be right).

and speaking from personal experience, i found it helpful to have some peer review when i first found what i'd been looking for for so damn long. a friend of mine who's on this board got 1st path friggin 8 years ago but no one was around to tell her. did she lose anything from not knowing? not really. did she appreciate finding out and did it help her to know? yes. solid vote on preferability of too much information on this matter to too little.. (for now anyway)

I think your hat is safe enough.

But it is early days for her. I don't mean that her practice is so young but that the opening is. If it is 1st path, or 2nd it will stand the test of a few weeks. If some one with experience was there on the ground maybe they could say for sure now. I remember Vince saying Daniel grilled him pretty thoroughly before confirming that he had gotten 1st path.

maya81, keep us posted on how things are going back in the world. You have me on the edge of my seat!

Ed

Dear Maya81,

I can't believe I missed this thread when it was going. What fun, what healthy, wonderful fun and support.

I also am very interested to hear how your insights and experiences have developed as this has gone on.

Daniel

yes the support has been amazing, like being welcomed to a family of sorts!
i had some pm, and email exchange in private, and it helped tremendously in sorting out
my recent experience and how to go from there.
for a moment i thought i had caused some trouble (attainment claim thread), so i decided to keep quiet.

i wonder why i doubted the experience that i had so strongly. it should just be self-evident and self-explanatory.
maybe it's the ever skeptical scientist in me, that doesn't even trust the object of investigation itself. especially
if the experience has been dramatically altered, and there seems to no going back to the old way of experiencing in order
to reproduce the result in the exact same conditions. the experiment couldn't have been successful, or could it?

lingering questions, that i have now answered sufficiently and to my own satisfaction. after all today marks the 2-week mark.

oh yes, and i feel forever thankful and grateful for the creation, and the fostering of this sort of environment, the openness,
the willingness to share, and the support. thank you all!

Hey Tarin,

My point here is not to say that Maya did or didn't get stream-entry (hi Maya!), just that a healthy dose of skepticism (especially following a big experience) is useful. And as Ed mentions time is the really the best ally in assessing one's practice, as are good conversations with other cool people who know what they're talking about (like this one).

I remember telling Daniel about my experiences directly following the retreat where I got stream-entry. He asked me tons of questions (grilled me in some ways) and I described things the best I could. In the end he didn't say "you got stream-entry" or "you didn't get stream-entry" he just told me that my descriptions sounded interesting and suggested I give it a year and a day before making up my mind about what had happened. I really appreciated that suggestion and gave myself plenty of time before making up my mind. Of course, by the time I had gotten 3rd path (less than a year later) the question of whether or not I had gotten stream-entry was kind of a non-question. The point being that I felt like Daniels questions and his practical suggestions actually helped me continue developing and trusting my own internal sense of the path. We don't always need to tell people what we think they've experienced for them to clear about what they've experienced.

And I'm sure that if Maya is well on her way to the next path, she'll probably know it and what we say won't make all that much of a difference in the end. From what I've found, the path kind of verifies itself, w/o any need for outside verification (though having good maps and good conversations with other sincere practitioners does help a lot w/ making sense of things). So, I would suggest we keep our hat-eating to a minimum and encourage people to trust (and develop) their own interior wisdom and discernment. ;-D

Wow. I'm getting close to digesting a recent retreat and was going to do a separate post, but I can pretty much say Ditto to everything Maya said.

It was a two week retreat and that was a few weeks ago. I especially relate to feeling giddy and close, making resolutions, a big event, and then big doubts. And after the big event I really relate to: "whatever I tried to focus on for too long just got too strong for me to handle. I thought my brain would seize at some point. " It was a mix of everything seeming like sychronicity, pride, and guilt. At a certain point, I just had to say to myself, "spend some time re-calibrating and grounding."

Like you, I've been talking and writing to help get grounded.

I felt very very vunerable during the end of the retreat and after returning home. Maybe some spontaneous raptures, maybe not. I've made myself chill out over the past few weeks and formally resolving "no progress, no drama". Soon I'll formally sit again, make new resolutions, and see how it goes.

It strikes me that longer retreats might be more gentle ways to do this work. I think it would have been nice to go through a few periods of concentrating then grounding, then advancing a little more, etc. That's about the only real observation I have that might be of benefit, or at least something I might advise myself if I went back in time! Ultimately, no regrets but I feel like I was playing with fire. I plan on seeking a local teacher/friend if I dive in again with as much intensity as I did. Maybe that's the other observation I would make.

Hope this helps! Thanks Maya for your report!

Edit: It's not clear from above... I think my experience was a big A&P. Maya's after events sound different than mine.

This is a marvelous discussion. Hats off (but not eaten) to Maya for having the courage to break the silence and post it.