Forum: Maps of Meditation

Hi, I am new here,

1. I would like to find out have I even reached Mind and Body stage. Since I could not really map my experience to the stages in Daniel's book (I had read the whole book).

3. And how should I practice in order to progress to the stage where rising and falling is happening so fast that I need to drop my mental labelling of the sensation.

I do try to following each sensation very closely. Be it abdomen rising/falling, itches, pain, or thoughts that arises. But the experience is always at coarse level. Never to vibration level, unless I don't even know that I am experiencing vibration.

4. I practice the Mahasi method (mindful of abdomen rising and falling). For the past 2 years, I average an hour of sitting per day. And I try to maintain mindfulness in my daily activities.

5. On average sitting, I can only be mindful of the main object for lest than 10 breaths before the mind starts to wander. Most of the time, I could not detect and follow the wandering mind immediately. I have not been able to improve much on this. I try to generate interest and curiosity in the meditation object, but it doesn't really help.

Only on rare occasions could I maintained mindfulness of the primary object and wandering thoughts throughout the 1 hr session.

6. I had attended a 8 days retreat in June 08 by a Mahasi centre and a few 1day retreats.

Hi Peong,

I cannot say where you are, but at a cursory glance, it appears that you might be confusing Concentration practice vs Insight practice. I would recommend reading the concentration resources on these forums and also re-read the concentration sections in Daniel's book. With hard work in that area, you will improve your concentration and the mind will not wander like it did before. Then, if you wish, you could pick up insight practice such as noting technique or self-inquiry.

I also recommend a meditation technology such as Holosync, as some (myself included) have strong positive meditative reactions to those. They are especially useful in the early stages.

Best of luck,
Trent

Author: marinr

Hi Peong,

I also used the abdomen rising and falling as my primary focus. I'll write here how I got to seeing mind moments very quickly, it might be of some help:

I would sit in meditation and put my hands on the knees, close my eyes and tried to see which one is left and which one is right. When that speeded up with consistency I would put my attention on the abdomen and tried to see which one is the up-movement and which one is the down-movement. When that was clear I put my hand on the abdomen and got access concentration on the touch object and started seeing that there were two mind representations of my hand touching the abdomen (one was before and one was after the actual touch). When that was clear I included the rising and falling of the abdomen and saw it as separate from the touch object. Very soon things started developing according to the insight map.

Hi Yabaxoule, Marinr

Thanks for your suggestion.

I normally start of with Metta Meditation (15min) as Concentration practice before switch to Vipassana meditation (45min). All along, I am using Mahasi method based on momentary concentration, and did not attempt to reach Jhanic level. I would go Daniel's book concentration sections again and try out the suggested method.

Dear Peong,

Thanks for your question. It is a good one. Try noting the sensations of rising and falling many times during each rise and fall, but only when you notice each part of the rise and fall.

For example, if the breath is rising, there are many sensations as it rises, and you should be able to notice the beginning sensations, the middle sensations and the ending sensations of the breath rising. You should note each of those sensations as many times as you notice them. Also, don't miss all the other little sensations coming in, sounds, sights on the back of your eyelids, etc, as opportunities to see things come and go. At some point you should notice that you reach mind and body, where thoughts are just seen as thoughts or objects, and then cause and effect, during which the noting and the breathing will affect each other, and then three characteristics, when the neck or back may get stiff or your head may shake, and when you note the breath it should make the breath change and shake in odd ways, and then if you can keep going, subtle, fine vibrations may begin to show themselves. This is part of the A&P.

I would recommend retreats, and see a previous thread or two about advice on retreats for more on practicing well.

One more thing: have a "miss nothing" policy, in that you will not miss any sensation in your sitting practice for even one second. This helps. Also, really watch out at the end of the out breath. As the out breath is about half way down every single time, prepare the mind to not get lost during the end of the breath, as is some common. In this way, you can help prevent wandering, and stay with breath after breath.

Helpful?

Daniel

peong,

i just want to add to what daniel said about the physical manifestations that you are more likely to go through them as intensely as he describes if you practise hard and with the full force of your mind, which also seems to have the effect of passing through the stages more efficiently or thoroughly or something. yes, you can still make progress if you meditate somewhat passively, but for best value for your time, thorough, continuous, and not least of all intense and hard-hitting, investigation is almost certainly the way to go. so when daniel's talking about the symptoms that you may notice occurring, with the different stages and stage shifts, he's assuming the meditator is totally working his ass off (at least during the practice period).

Author: FaustusSolis

You might want to experiment with deep abdominal breathing just prior to your sitting practice. I often will work with a 12-fold breath exercise lying down that I learned from Reginald Ray that has been a help. He has several CD collections out, and I think there are some audio resources available on his website at DharmaOcean.com, but I haven't checked to see whether he goes into this practice on the website. I think his latest book, Touching Enlightenment, has a chapter in the back that describes this and a few other practices. His CD collection, Your Breathing Body definitely goes into this practice. I've found that this practice helps to dispel the rapidity/intensity of discursiveness and seems to open up a space where more subtlety can be experienced. I hope this is helpful; if not, just file it away for later reference. Looks like you're getting some helpful answers from the folks on this site.

Yes, the suggestion is definitely helpful.

1. I used to note the abdomen rising and falling as a smooth continuous movement. Noting "r i s i n g" from the start to end of in-breath. I have just changed to "rising, rising, rising, rising,..." as I note each part of the in-breath, even though it still feel like a continuous movement to me.

I am noting with more intensity.

I have also added the "concentrating on 2 body parts at the same time" exercise to gear up my ability to note sensation.

2. Recently, I notice 3 thumping on my abdomen at each out and in-breath. I thought it is vibration. But later realised it has the same rhythm as my heart beat.

3. On a different note, during each sitting, I would find myself slouched forward or side way. Following standard instruction, I adjusted and straighten my posture. The problem is that I find myself doing this every 5min. My awareness would also change from a mild absorption, to fully aware of the surrounding. I assume the the mild absorptive state would have led to deeper realisation of the meditation object. But when I straighten my posture, it feels like back to square one. Is there a way to resolve this? Do I have to make an effort to check my posture at all time to prevent the slouching?

4. I am attending a 3 days retreat (yes, it is a bit short) this weekend, and intent to attend a 8 days retreat in Jun 09. That is why I hope to clear some doubts and settle down on new techniques before the retreat. I spent my last retreat fighting against intense leg pain only to learn later that I should have used it improve my concentration.

Peong

Author: asmala

My practice seems to be in similar territory as Peong's. I've got a three-day retreat coming up next week, so I hope to amp intensity up during and after that. And this brings me to two questions…

1) I've noticed a similar thumping in my breath while doing the basic Mahasi Sayadaw breath noting, but it's definitely faster than my heartbeat, maybe 5-10 times per in-breath (fairly shallow, maybe 4-5s per breath). Is this the texture of the vibrations I should be looking for, something akin to a fast heartbeat laid over the breath?

2) Shortly after my first Goenka retreat last year, I twice had what I presume to be the "free flow" experience that Goenka talks about during the discourses. I felt a tingling sensation similar to what one can feel when concentrating on the finger tips, but throughout my body, seemingly simultaneously everywhere. Both times it was preceded by a brief lapse in concentration, after which my concentration returned in this "altered" form. The experience doesn't seem to line up with the A&P but felt somehow significant. Was this Jhana territory or something else?

Janne

1) good, note each one of those thumps. those are vibrations, yes. after a while, notice how they're there even when you're not breathing. now, they may change, may get faster or slower, may become stronger or weaker or fade completely or come back, may broaden or may narrow, but note each thump, and if it gets too fast to note them separately then it's a good time to drop noting and, as u pandita's tradition is prone to say, 'plunge into the sensation'. what this means is let your mind be absorbed into the vibes to really build concentration and really get going.

2) given the description, you could be talking about either 1st or 2nd vipassana jhana, yes. have you ever crossed the a&p before?

Author: asmala

Thanks, Tarin. That's reassuring advice.

The closest thing that I've come to the A&P was this experience and a brief experience with binaural beats where my mind was absorbed into imagery without any awareness of my body. So your diagnosis of 1st/2nd vipassana jhana sounds about right.

Hi,

The last couple of times I've sat I've noticed a very similar sounding pulsing with the breath. I've also been following the basic Mahasi noting instructions Practical Insight Meditation. On my last sit I start noticing pulses ~3-4 per second, or per in/out breath. Rather than noting "pulse" I would just note "rising" or "falling" because the pulse seemed to make the breath more obvious, and there didn't seem to be much to note when there wasn't a pulse.

After noting them for a while it started to seem an aweful lot like I was causing the pulses to give my self something easier to note (in retrospect I probably missed noting the thought and got swept off on a tangent of analyzing.) The first time it came up I decided to let it go and keep on with the pulses, but the feeling I was causing the pulses seemed to keep coming up every 5 minutes or so, and eventually I decided I'd better try and stop what I perceived as a manipulation of the breath by stopping the pulses.

I think I probably worked an answer out by typing that. Is it fair so say I should actually note the pulse rather than the breath at the pulse, and avoid stopping just because it seems like I may be causing the pulses?

On another note, thanks to everyone here! I fell like a kid in a candy shop with all the great information and advice everyone is sharing! Thanks for allowing this to happen and thanks for sharing.

Thanks,
Nick

I was just thinking that the pulses I'm experiencing seem a little fishy to me because I can experience them to a certain degree right now while I'm typing this. I just realized that in order to write the "~3-4 per second" above I stopped typing, tried to find the pulses, counted them and wrote it down. It seems odd to me that I should be able to do that with such little effort.

These are all great questions about the first 4 ñanas, those of Mind and Body, Cause and Effect, The Three Characteristics and the A&P.

Regarding those pulses, Tarin is right on with his advice: keep on them, they start slow, then get faster and faster to become fine vibrations that may spread out over the body (A&P).

When our noting and our objects seem to interfere with one another, cause each other, or otherwise be linked, that is Cause and Effect. In this stage, people may say things like "I note and the breath moves, I stop noting and it stops, I note quickly and it shakes quickly, I note slowly and it moves slowly" and ditto with walking meditation. Just keep going: this is a sign of progress.

As to the body twisting into strange positions, feeling like the two sides are different, or losing the ability to keep a straight posture without looking at how we are sitting, all those are very Three Characteristics, the stage just before the A&P. These symptoms are signs of progress. Obsession with posture is common at this stage, and is a good sign. There may also be strange jaw tensions, strange neck tensions, the sensations of things being tight or difficult, and the Cause and Effect-like phenomena of things jerking or moving in odd ways when we note can get more pronounced and faster if we note faster, which is a good idea. All of these strange side effects are good. Keep going, this is all on the right track.

Thanks for the help Daniel and Tarin!
I tried giving up on caring whether something was a vibration or not and just tried to note faster and more accuratly. At some point I stopped actually noting and relaxed my awarness off of my breath and expanded to anything coming in. Here I ran into something closer to the vibration description: non localized (though occasionally associated with hearing) & ~10 - 20 beats per second. I couldnt actually note that fast so I just tried to focus on the beats and let the non note part of noting do its thing. The pulse slowed, got fainter and when I laid off direct attention (focus?), they got faster and more noticable. Sitting like this for a while, if I relaxed and didn't try to hold attention on any one thing that arose, physical and mental things arose in bits and pieces(?) The sense of watcher was very clearly seperate from the arising bits, and the function that noticed the bits at this point. I chilled with this a bit but eventually lost it.
On to a point and a question (please let me know if I'm abusing the forum, I'm just all excited):
I noticed the watcher being seperate from the noticed&noticing when the folowing scenario seemed to occur: something happened -> something mental arose seemingly associated with it -> something put a "me" into the mental thing that arose -> the watcher watched without having anything to do with any of it, especially not the inserted "me." At the time I just let it fly by and didn't get all obsessed with it.
The question is: I had happened to reread the section on the 3 characteristics in Daniel's Book (Awesomeness) beforehand and after I was done sitting, I kept trying to fit my experience into the framework of the 3 characteristics. This seems potentially dangerous. Should we avoid trying to get our experiences in meditation to rationally(?) jive with a framework outside of meditation?

Author: SoManyThoughts

I think I'd be pretty thrilled if I witnessed the arising of "me". Thanks for sharing the description of the experience.

There is no need for that at all. If the method you're applying is any good, its precision will do the work for you. In this way, you will also test the framework you're using to navigate the general [and actual] territory. Putting the framework and expectations to test is really important, whether you end up confirming or disproving them. That's how we build even better maps together. Let's keep pushing the envelope, together.

1. OK, I just completed the 3 days retreat. Things were quite uneventful, until the last walking session on the last day. Something exciting happened. During that session, I decided to label only when I could feel the sensation. So although the lifting and pushing of the feet is a continuous movement, I will label "lifting" only when I noticed a particular part of it. And ..... I started to sense this jerky movement. I labeled about 10 times during each step, and I realised a jerk (stop and move) whenever I labeled. I would have dismissed this, if not for having read the first 3 stages of Insight (MCTB book) many times and Daniel's comments in earlier thread. I would have taken it as some disruptive feeling that I should change method to get rid off.

Now, I am also able to get this jerky feeling on the rising and falling during sitting.

2. My decision to label only what I noticed stemmed from an earlier interview with the teacher. I was relating that when my calf felt intense pain during sitting, by labeling "pain" very quickly, I was able to alleviate the pain. The teacher told me that I was merely changing my concentration from the pain to my quick labeling. I knew then that my labeling was disconnected from the sensation. This is really a case of I thought I knew the method, but was actually doing it wrongly.

3. Next I will try out to see if I should let this phase stablise OR push on by seeing if I could note faster.

4. Second experience was this upper left back pain that I had while sitting during the first and second day. Somehow it disappeared on the third day. I have a feeling that this is something mental rather than physical. I remember having the same pain on the same spot during another retreat. Back then, I blamed it on my slouched sitting posture and kept doing back stretching exercise to reduce the pain.
....

continue ...

5. Third experience was seeing green light during 2 sittings when I was noting the intense pain in my calf. My entire vision was filled with green "map like" shapes. I remember a year back, also during noting of intense pain, I saw red and grey light sweeping in and cover my entire vision . Is this of any significance?

peong,

2. good to hear your teacher corrected you there. labeling should only be used to support concentration/continuity of attention and the experience of actually perceiving the sensation itself - and then going on to perceive sensations come and go. keep it up.

4. that kinda recurring pain is just part and parcel of the path - usually most prominent in first vipassana jhana territory and most likely to come up the first few days of a retreat. keep trying to sit well but dont obsess about posture.

5.

Hi,

I have another question about catching wandering thoughts.

1. I often find myself in the middle of wandering thoughts, not knowing when it started. Knowing that I have wander off, I would go back to abdomen "rising and falling". But before 10 counts, I find myself in the middle of wandering thoughts again.

2. I have not been able to improve much on this. I try to generate interest and curiosity in the meditation object, but it doesn't really help my concentration.

Only on rare occasions could I maintained mindfulness of the primary object and wandering thoughts throughout the 1 hr session.

3. Recently, I read materials on the 5 controlling faculties (faith, wisdom, energy, concentration, mindfulness). I find that wandering thought is the result of too much energy causing restlessness. Too much energy also means weak concentration, which explains why I did not catch the start of thoughts.

4. The recommendation is to relax, and back off energetic noting by doing choiceless awareness. Guess what, when I do choiceless awareness, the first thing that became obvious is my abdomen "rising and falling". So I am back to square one.

peong

first off, congratulations on discovering different ways to adjust your meditation so as to make it 'work'. it is this willingness to experiment and find solutions for yourself that leads to greatness, both on the cushion and off. secondly, i'd like to question if choiceless awareness would have brought you to the rising and falling if you hadn't already been training attention there specifically. if not, you could hardly say you haven't made progress. lastly, square one's actually a really good place to be. if every single moment were square one, the problem would be close to solving itself.

if you want my advice for what to do specifically, i would say broaden out your attention and note whatever comes up, and do it faster, so you dont have time to wander. noting rising and falling, in the words of sayadaw u thuzana (the ex-abbot of MBMC), 'can be very dry and boring' ... if so, boredom and restlessness is probably made of a bunch of sensations that you're missing. what are those sensations? where are they occurring? how they arise at the same time, or how quickly do they follow one another? on one hand, there are the sensations that are dominant in your field of experience, and on the other, there's what you notice of them. try to tune these two up by being conscious of anything the moment it occurs - that's the point of noting.

if you really consider it, this is your only moment to be alive and to notice it. considering that, doesn't it spark a desire to stay more attentive to the present moment? what is there to do besides pay attention? keep trying.

please let me know if that's helpful,
tarin

I have just started practice in the past few months, no retreats, no teacher and no local sangha. I'm almost done with Daniel's book. I've started a personal meditation journal over at wordpress (linked through my profile page, set to private, only wordpress members can view after being invited) to track where I'm at. Since I'm new at the whole map thing, I figured I'd post my first sitting because I'm not sure where I fit on the map.

Here is my first entry:

May 26th, 2009

Time: 1545 to 1605 hrs. (20 minute session)

Sitting meditation, cross-legged style on cushion, blankets under knees for stability. Began noting breath. Middle-end of breath most intense. After a few minutes noted middle left back pain (vibrating at 15-20 cycles per second). Body became “heavy”, ability to hold posture of sitting upright more labored, felt very relaxed, labored to breath in after each exhalation. After a few more minutes saw flickering/strobing of lights behind eyelids, saw white jagged ’sun’, radiating circle lines around sun, saw fractal shapes in rainbow colors, predominantly blue/green (some purple). Few more minutes ‘body’ disappeared with ‘mind’ left, beginning of exhalation intense, strong emotions of shame/guilt (where is it coming from, but didn’t explore, just noted emotion), few minutes later strong sense of no-knower knowing, but still strong sense of self present, felt ’roundness’ of upper chest, especially during inhalation. At end of session, opened eyes and strong sense of ‘what is just is’, weird sensation of coolness on right shoulder, upper right arm, and right pectoral. Didn’t experience drowsiness during session, hardly any back noise in mind. Session was over too quickly, felt should have sat a lot longer as if I was just beginning.

Author: bboyYen

You should probably note how you're trying to note so intensely or closely.

You should also probably note that you can't find anything to note, or that you can't detect the wandering mind immediately.

You should note your attempts to generate interest in the meditation object.



If this is the case:

You should note your expectations of having something to note.

You should note your ridiculous feelings of so many things to note, and should note your satisfaction at having noted that.

Author: bboyYen

You should note your bewilderment or confusion (if you have them) at having all those wandering thoughts, you should also note not knowing when they started and your disappointment at having not known (if you have that). You should also note your fear (if you have it) and thus your attempt to go back to concentration of rising and falling.

Author: bboyYen

that is one of the original problems I had.

I once sat down and thought "wow, there is just nothing to note here, there is nothing here, it's all empty" (I'm paraphrasing)

Then I realized that that counted, that that was something to note "wow, there is just nothing to note here, there is nothing here, it's all empty" and boom I had unlocked the key.

And then I noted that, and I remember that one time I noted my satisfaction after having noted that.

I suppose I'll just post this in here since I have essentially the same question as the original poster (that is, have I reached mind & body?). I'm much newer to the practice than peong - about four months - but I had the distinct advantage of reading MCTB early on (only half kidding here).

For the first few months of sitting (mostly using the Mahasi Sayadaw method although I prefer to focus on my nose-tip or nostrils rather than the abdomen) I noticed nothing particularly unusual other than my legs falling asleep. Recently, however, some interesting and strange things have been happening. In about half of my meditations I go through a period, usually about five minutes long, when my focus on the breath in my nose suddenly "expands" - maybe a better way to put it is that someone turned the volume up on the touch-sensation - and suddenly the breath is so easy and obvious that it takes no effort at all to follow it. This is immediately followed up by an extremely pleasant feeling, usually in a specific part of my body such as my face or hands. At this point my mind usually starts a narrative about how awesome this feels and I lose hold. From what I can tell this is a result of concentration, not insight, but I don't know if I'm getting into first jhana territory or if it's just piti and sukha. (I hit the character limit, more in the next post)

(continued)

As for the stages of enlightenment, I've had a few experiences that feel like the right direction but I'm not sure what they mean. Most of the following experiences have occurred very recently (in the last few days). First, I was sitting alone noting as many sensations as I could when I suddenly became quite absorbed in the high-pitched whine in my ears that is audible when it's very quiet. As I paid attention to the whine I unconsciously shortened my breath until I was barely breathing, and I began to notice a strobing effect in the sound that seemed always a little bit out of reach, sort of like as if it was in my peripheral vision. In the same session I opened my eyes and noticed the light flickering slightly - not in an even strobing sense, but a kind of inconstant waver (a bit like this lovely music video: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DQBDsNiCCNM). It was quite subtle, though, so much that I wasn't entirely sure I didn't imagine it.

Futhermore, in walking meditation today I suddenly had an extremely strange experience where I felt like my body was a foreign object, sort of like a fleshy marionette, and my trunk was pushing steadily forward on a pair of weird floppy objects that I had previously considered "my legs." I had no success getting that same feeling afterwards.

Any insight on these experiences would be greatly appreciated. Thanks for reading. (Looks like my first post ended up being my first two posts.)

hi theodolite,

the tone in your ears breaking up is a good sign that your concentration is improving, and is a door to insight into impermanence. welcome to vibrations. keep going, and see if you can perceive sense impressions with the same kind of fast and fleeting, yet somehow totally natural, quality that you are tuned into with the strobing sound. can you see it as well? can you feel some of the sensations on your body in the same way? dont worry about it and no need to force it. just like the strobing sound showed up, those things will. and if they dont, other things will instead - it just means you're going down a slightly different 'track'.

coincidentally i just wrote about smth similar in the 'impermanence in the visual field' thread - look at my reply for details.

tarin

Hi theodolite,

The experiences you shared (shift in to bliss, audible phenomena, light flickering, etc.) sounds to me like concentration related phenomena. This could be your shift in to access concentration, but that's just a guess.

You have two options from here. When one of those slight shifts occurs, you can either (1) Try to relax in to the experience and try to stay with the consistent quality or "flavor" or it. This will pop you in to 1st shamatha jhana. Or, (2) Note, note, and note some more! Make a mental note for each and every sensation, mental or bodily, that arises and passes away. Feeling excited? Note it. Breath slowing down? Note the new tempo. Note everything. This will kick you in to Mind & Body if you're not there already.

Let us know what happens

Jackson

Thanks for the replies. I haven't replied in a couple of days since nothing very interesting has come up in my practice, but I appreciate your input. I suspect that awouldbehipster is correct and I'm experiencing access concentration - hopefully the more I attain this state (now I can reliably do it after about 20 minutes of sitting), the less I will get excited I and lose it as soon as it arrives.

One interesting thing has been happening lately which someone may shed some light on - for the last few days I've been sitting for about a half hour just before going to bed. I never have sleepiness problems when I meditate (with the exception of the one time I tried sitting for an hour the evening after pulling an all-nighter) so this is usually a productive time, but I've noticed that when I finish the practice, climb into bed, and turn out the light, I notice an intense flickering effect - perhaps 15 times per second - in my vision my eyes are closed. The first time this happened I didn't think much of it, but it continued to happen after every before-bed meditation. I don't get the flicker WHILE I meditate, only after I finish and lie down. Just a weird side effect or something more significant?

Thanks for the update.

My guess is that the flickers aren't anything really significant. What is significant, however, is that you are able to notice when they show up. As your concentration improves, it extends to all other areas of life. You'll catch yourself picking up on things you never noticed before.

There's also something to be said about how energy travels around before, during, and after meditation. The traveling energy is usually call "kundalini energy", and it travels up and down the energy centers called "Chakras" (you may already know this). Anyways, I get a lot of light flickers when the energy gets pushed up in to the Brow/Third-Eye chakra area. So, that could have something to do with it as well.

Lastly, lights and flashing is often related to A&P territory, so keep paying attention when it happens. If you want to continue your practice after laying down, try noticing the arising and passing of as many of the flickers as you can. If you can get in to the groove of this sort of practice, you may just cross the A&P.

Keep us posted.
Jackson

Author: AngelinaChan-Ong

First of all, congratulating everyone here for everyone seems to be on track.
When I first started meditation, I felt that I was a trapped little hyperactive scooter. I would be sitting there,, struggling to sit still as the inside of my mind kept commanding my body to get up and run around on one hand, and another flash of thought told me to be good and sit down, don't be naughty.
As concentration increases, I felt the vibrations of my tummy, every jab of pain when my legs go to sleep, knowing them the moment they arise and when they disappear just as suddenly. As Daniel said, don't miss a single thing!
I didn't miss anything, but I didn't bother anything either. I was as a spectator, watching from afar, and not reacting. Even at that point where there seemed to be a bright light, I just noted that it's there, then as sudden as it came, it went. We need to just be an observer, not a participator, to see the rising and the falling of all phenomenon. If we participate, that's when some people start saying that they see visions in their mind of visits by dead relatives, devas, and other mystical beings. And that's where the real trouble comes. Some become so attached to this light because it awes them, that they keep hoping to see light at every sitting, and may end up crazy.
Just remember to be an observer. In science, we experiment and we become observers to the results so that we learn of the findings. In meditation too, this whole body is an event, an experiment of its own, and we only need to observe to find things we never knew before. And one fine day, *POOF!* you realise that you've become a Stream Winner.

Hi all, thank you for your comments.

Hi Tarin,

a. Your comments about noting boredom did not looks obvious to me at first. It is only after a lot experimenting and analysing for 2 weeks that I realised it could be an issue.

b. I have gone through many sittings where I could note continuously the rising and falling for the initial period of 20min, then realised that either I had stopped noting or was already in the middle of wandering thoughts. 2 weeks back I thought this is Restlessness, but now feel that it is Boredom and Torpor.

c. This is significantly different from the other sittings when right from the start, wandering thoughts overwhelmed me. That would be Restlessness.

d. To address Boredom and Torpor, I switched my noting to "Touching and Sitting", hoping to generate more energy. To address Restlessness, I expanded my scope to note what ever comes up (choiceless awareness). So far, there is no immediate success, but will keep trying.

e. I also tried to note the Restlessness and Torpor itself. This is more difficult. What I do is when I sense I am blanking out, or can feel the energy running low, I will note it. It seems that when my concentration is good, I slip into torpor instead of deeper concentration.

Can I assume that by the time I reached this state, it is too late? And I should note more things before reaching this state to prevent going into torpor.

f. I am surprise to see that I created this thread only a month ago. I have make more changes to my meditation method in this 1 month compared to the last 2 years.

g. I am also surprised how stubborn I am to make changes during meditation. There is a few sitting when I intend to try new things but end of not doing it.

(cont)

(cont)

f. Going through the MTCB book and the threads here multiple times, I deduced that I may be between stage 2 (cause and effect) and stage (3 characteristics). I think I am what Kenneth mentioned a pre-4th stage (A&P) yogi, who for years, repeatedly fails to penetrate the object and proceed to the Arising and Passing Away. I believe I have misunderstood simple instruction wrongly and mistaken that it is only a matters of time when breakthrough will comes automatically.

g. Having said this, the reason I have not loose interest earlier is because of the drastic change in my daily life after incorporating mindfulness into my daily activities. I am now able to detect anger and greed faster, preventing further damages.

peong

hey peong,

nice to hear you're satisfied with your progress. here's a couple more tips, should you wish to take them on:

the hindrances are your friends. insight meditation doesnt often feel like good concentration practice - its not supposed to be steady and peaceful, with perfect attention and balance of mind. its about seeing impermance, things happening relentlessly and out of your control (no-self), which can be annoying and edgy at times, or even downright painful (suffering). note all these things and keep going.

this is just a hunch, but i think you should note faster. go as fast as you can and dont worry if you're noting 'correctly' - it doesnt actually matter what the label you note with is as long as its training your attention in experiencing the sensations directly and quickly (experience it and move on, experience it and move on.... fast! faster!)

regards,
tarin

ps my mind wanders pretty often when i sit, but that didnt stop me from going through this thing successfully. dont let it fool you into thinking thats the problem!

Tarin makes an important point...

My mind wonders quite often as well. Pay close attention to what happens when it re-collects itself. Who was there before? Who is there now? This is great 'no-self' stuff. Use whatever shows up as a tool for your awakening. As they say in sports, Let the game come to you.

Jackson

Author: msj123

I agree with Tarin.

In my practice, I see the difference between distraction and the arising and passing of phenomenon to be one of attention rather than content. To put it in simple English, if I pay attention when I am distracted, then what one thinks of as a distraction is actually the arising and passing of the so-called "object of attention" and the arising and passing of the so-called "object of distraction".

Hi, it has been 2 weeks since I returned from a 8 days Mahasi method retreat.

1. With the retreat, I can detect much faster that my noting has stopped, and wandering thoughts has risen. But the noting of meditation objects is still not continuous.

The improvement is attributed to a) Being more conscious of my posture. I find whenever my posture slant to left and slouched, it will be followed by wandering thoughts. Yes, it would meant I have to regularly adjust my posture. But I try do it mindfully b)Incorporating more noting of "Sitting and touching", which substitutes the primary object of my rising and falling when it is not noticeable. This has limited success. I only find it effective for after lunch sessions when drowsiness is strong.

2. For the past 2 weeks, my only focus during sitting is to detect the transition between the point when my noting of rising and falling stopped and the wandering thoughts arisen.

Actually, I am puzzled why despite of concerted effort, I could not resolve this faster. What I do is to note the rising and falling, and the noting will stopped at around 10 counts, then there is "blank" (basically I don't know what happened), and then either I am in thoughts already or I realised that noting has stopped. I will then note the thoughts, and then start counting again. I must have tried this a few thousand times during the hours of sitting over that last 2 weeks.

I have made progress, but it is slow. Only on a few occasions, I could detect the noting weaken, and the thoughts gradually takes over.

(edit : I have shifted this question to http://dharmaoverground.wetpaint.com/thread/3128421/Overcoming+Torpor)

(to cont)

(cont)

3. During the retreat, I again experienced the state of seeing bright green ring shape images that expanded, contracted and shifted around. Later I could even see the same green shapes on the floor when I am doing walking meditation. The teacher was very kind to let me babbled on and on about these experiences. Then he told me that was the wrong meditation object because it was external.

However, I am still fascinated because during this state, I felt that concentration require less effort, body feel locked in and stable, usual pain is gone, and feeling is pleasant.

Questions:
a. Could anyone share what is the state I mentioned in pt 3 about seeing green shapes?

b. Could anyone share your experience in overcoming what I mentioned in pt 2. Also, is this classify as weak cconcentration, or is it weak mindfulness?

peong

hi peong,

a- i cant tell for sure, but you might be getting into some good territory. your teacher's advice should be taken not to mean avoid getting into that state, but to mean avoid getting obsessed with being in that state. all experiences are impermanent (that state, like any state, will not last), make use of whatever opportunity presents itself (if that state is conducive to good practice, make use of it while its there), and accept whatever what comes next and make use of that (just keep going).

b- not enough info to give a conclusive answer, but i suggest you keep trying different things. the fact that you have been willing to do this 'a few thousand times' is both a good sign and a bad sign. good in the sense that you are persistent and dedicated; bad in the sense that you might not be diversifying enough, and putting enough of your own intelligence into figuring out what works and what doesnt.

here's a question for you: have you been taking my advice from earlier and trying to note as fast as you can (at least several times a second)?

best,
tarin

True, I became attached to it for that session, because it is new and fascinating. It went like suddenly there is this brightness, then images became very clear, like staring at a computer screen, concentrating is easy. Another key things is the usual leg pain is gone. Unfortunately, during that state, I didn't switch back to rising and falling to see if something different would come out of it.

peong

I feel that I am just too stubborn to give up and change method. At the same time, puzzled why I can't even do something as simple as count rising and falling from 1 to 20 without loosing it in between.

peong

(edit: I have shifted this question to http://dharmaoverground.wetpaint.com/thread/3128421/Overcoming+Torpor)

Yes, I labelled as fast as I could note. And avoid jumping the gun, which do happen when the labeling gets into a momentum.

peong