As many of you here know Dhammarato is a lineaged teacher who studied at Wat Suan Mokh in Southen Thailand under Bhikkhu Buddhadāsa and Ajahn Pho. The latter has given him the task of teaching the supramundane dhamma over the Internet, which he does free-of-charge to anyone who asks.Dhammarato argues that the central teachings of the Buddha are simple but have been obscured by egregiously poor translations, misunderstood terms, and the accretion and elevation of superfluous magical concepts like karma and rebirth.I had a brief conversation with Dhammarato [  https://youtu.be/eaS5XmO2xyc ] during which he mentioned:
*That Buddhadāsa both rediscovered the supramundane dhamma for himself and found that it had long survived in his own and other Buddhist traditions, but only as something apart from the tradition taught to the majority of people. *The possibility that Buddhagosa as a Brahmin wrote the Visuddhimagga not to explain the dhamma of the Buddha but to keep it obscure for the benefit of Brahminical teachings and practices.
*The belief that the Buddha taught only one form of meditation: ānāpānasati, as the vehicle to practice the noble eightfold path through the fulfilment of the four foundations of mindfulness and development of the seven factors of enlightenment, which in turn lead to knowledge and deliverance.
*That “vipassanā” is a term used rarely in the suttas. The sixteen vipassanā-ñānas, if they have any validity at all, are just the path to sotāpanna and the steps are not sequential. The ‘Dark Night’ is not a concept that belongs in the dhamma.
*That first jhana is all that we require for our practice.
*That the middle path avoids the highs of the higher jhanas and the lows of self-flagellation so we can simply practice having one wholesome thought after another. The practice of sati is to remember to gladden the mind.
After reflecting on the conversation and revisiting some of my favourite passages in the suttas it is striking how many times the Buddha mentions the fact that he achieved freedom after contemplating paticcasamuppāda in forward and reverse configurations, i.e., the very teaching that emphasises the supremacy of the present moment as the vehicle for knowledge and liberation. Yet even so we’ve ended up with practices and teachings focussed more on past events and future goals as we measure our experiences against stages on a map, on fixed attainments, and on the idea of a final stage of inalienable enlightenment. You would hardly know that anatta and anicca are held to be characteristics of all existence.
It is said that when the Buddha was alone he would sometimes hum a version of paticcasamuppāda to himself.  To me, this Buddha, who reminds himself of his own dhamma, is a sympathetic historical character rather than an incomparable magical being.
Coincidentally, I recently discovered a really delightful and practical exposition of paticcasamuppāda by Sister Khema on YouTube, which you can find here: https://youtu.be/FN1vhgGpfDY

Great post, I love Dhammarato's exposition of the Dharma.
​​​​​​​
Thanks for sharing. 

57:18
She practiced by watching dukkha arise in her own mind and she learned to let go of it and it allowed her to respond to problems with compassion and reason instead of out of control emotions.

Thank you for posting that, Ian. And thank you for the questions that you asked. It was very interesting. I hope you post a link to your follow-up chat. 

The whole conversation about cats was also illuminating, as it gave Dhammarato some good material to work with. I certainly have my own "cats."

I think this is similar to the chart she used in the video but I'm not sure if it's identical:
https://web.archive.org/web/20151129101834/https://www.dhammasukha.org/uploads/1/2/8/6/12865490/107b-jul-2013-_dependent_origination_chart_in_color.doc

Thank you. That does indeed look like the chart used.

This also gives me the chance to mention that the Open Sangha Collective, of which Dhammarato is a part, publish a monastic sangha map "to connect students and teachers of Buddhadharma to the roots of the traditions represented in the Wats, Viharas, Temples, Monastaries and Nunneries of heritage and traditional Buddhist communities. Our hope is that in immersing in the life of the monastic Sangha students and teachers become deeply rooted in the tradition and forge links that will continue to nourish both their practice and their teaching for years to come." https://opensanghacollective.org/traditional-buddhist-communities/

It looks like am interesting alternative or complement to the usual Western-style retreat.

From the document:
I think this is why almost any type of meditation can produce awakening. Every time you notice you are distracted and come back to the focus of meditation you are interrupting a story in the mind, you are interrupting the process of dependent origination, you are interrupting the formation of dukkha. If you do this enough, eventually you figure out what causes dukkha and what ends dukkha. You learn to let go of attachments including attachments to self.

Jim, yes and no.  If one uses hindrances to counter hindrances, that is not wholesome. That isn't right effort. That isn't right thought.  This is why Apapanasati has the specific instruction to experience the mind and then gladden the mind. This allows wholesomeness to grow in the mind. 

This is how people get stuck or experience something so serious as the dark night. They get caught up in experiencing unsatisfactoriness without using the remedy. 

Hi Stefan,

How does what I wrote constitute using hindrances to counter hindrances?

Thanks,

I wasn't making an argument against you, I was merely adding to your great words while also keeping in theme with Dhammarato's teachings. I did not imply that you were saying hindrances, merely covering over the fact that there is a tendency for people to hear "notice you are distracted and come back to the focus of meditation" to be like some sort of wrangling -- all stick and no carrot. They'll use anger or striving or frustration to get the mind back into meditation. That's not what the Buddha taught. The Buddha taught goodwill. 

This is why I wrote "yes and no", all meditation can be conducive to liberation. But they need that ingredient and teachers must be cautious too!

+1

Thanks for clarifying.
I agree. It is a huge problem.
My motto is: Don't suppress, don't obsess.
Eventually one reaches a stage where one sees that things which arise also fade quickly. But until a person reaches that stage it is hard to know what to do. Even then I'm not sure there is a clear cut line between pushing away vs letting go, and letting out vs clinging. The extreme cases of getting carried away by thoughts and feelings or pushing away thoughts and feelings are more obvious but there is not always a perfect dividing line. Each person has to workout for themselves what is right at that particular moment.

aloha nicky,

   Lovely to see you again, my friend.

   You said:

All the Buddha-To-Be said about the 1st jhana is its pleasure is not to be feared (MN 36) and that the jhana he sponanteously attained via LETTING GO as a child (in MN 36) was the path to enlightenment.


this is wonderful!

...the rest amounts to splitting hairs and gilding lilies...



you said:


​​​​​​​1st jhana is not ideal for insight. The 4th jhana is what is directed for insight.

true, but insight is overrated...give someone a little insight and pretty soon they think they're the buddha, or at least a stream enterer...or an authority on what the buddha actually said...

insight is nothing more than  a distraction on the way, like siddhis...no one needs to know the future, no one ever has any power...all delusion...each insight is like peeling another layer off the onion, or draupadi wearing another new sari as each old one is ripped off...the void's new robes...trust reality and reality will trust you...

always fun to hear you contradict saints as though they were naughty schoolchildren...

(wink)


terry




What should be done for his disciples out of compassion by a Teacher who seeks their welfare and has compassion for them,
that I have done for you, Ānanda.
There are these roots of trees, these empty huts.
Meditate, Ānānda, do not delay, or else you will regret it later.
This is my instruction to you.     (MN 152.18)

I am reading "ANAPANASATI - MINDFULNESS WITH BREATHING Unveiling the Secrets of Life: a Manual for Serious Beginners" by BUDDHADASA BHIKKHU.

http://dhammatalks.net/Books3/Bhikkhu_Buddhadasa_Anapanasati_Mindfulness_with_Breathing.htm

I really like it. I don't meditate exactly the way he prescribes but there are a lot of parallels with how I practice (visualization to calm the body) and he explains how the practice relates to the most important parts of the dharma and how it leads to awakening - anyone can apply that information to their own way of practicing. The way he explains the sutra and how to put it into practice in a practical way is very interesting. It seems like a very rational approach to my way of thinking.

This is also good:
Paticcasamuppada: Practical Dependent Origination by Buddhadasa Bhikkhu

https://dhammaratoblog.wordpress.com/2016/03/29/paticcasamuppada-practical-dependent-origination/

Hey Jim, I really love basic Anapanasati too. And as I got more advanced, I naturally fell into doing an Anapanasati type technique without ever really knowing the Sutta's instructions. 

Also, I think it couples VERY well with the general TWIM method too (generating goodwill toward breath and using goodwill to release hindrances as they arise). Personally speaking, after deep insights, these basic meditation techniques do more to actually build up wholesomeness and change one's body-mind for the better. Otherwise, you're just stuck noticing dukkha without doing anything about it (which is the whole point of no-self and impermanence insights to begin with).

I personally don't see Dhamarrato's point about 1st Jhana being the critical key to success. However, I think that may be him nitpicking over a "middle way". Each Jhana has something new for us to learn as they evolve. I wouldn't really pick one to be the go-to Jhana. Personally, I think the third teaches the most. But that's just me. 

"My motto is: Don't suppress, don't obsess."

Yeah, I often find myself saying "don't repress, don't indulge".

Another essential point, especially for real progress, is "don't decieve yourself" or in more modern terms: "don't believe your hype"   People can focus on the successes of the past and create an identity around it. Chances are if we are honest we will notice that we're not perfect quite yet.

The last little bit is recognizing interdependence. Nothing we do is entirely our own, there is no self that gets to exist independent of other beings, our future is dependent on the world around us. Even if we are perfect at meditation... there is still the rest of the universe. This realization should be very very humbling if we really grasp it. Isolation and independent security is impossible. 

If people are called to this work and are curious, conscientious, and honest, the specific meditation practice is less important. Practice will "lead onwards". Even if they hit a wall due to a blindspot, they will work on it until they figure out what they have been overlooking --- and those problems are exactly what was needed to reveal the blindspot, so there isn't even angst about practice. 

If people are not really called to this work, it's hard to make any practice work. Just about every difficulty puts them off and they either quit or are endlessly seeking new teachers and new techniques that will magically fix things. 

Ultimately, even meditation is probably optional... if you are a really really honest and really really responsible person. A honest and responsible person without a meditation practice is probably further down the road than a decietful and selfish person with a meditation practice. 

aloha shar,

   You said:

 Nothing we do is entirely our own, there is no self that gets to exist independent of other beings, our future is dependent on the world around us. Even if we are perfect at meditation... there is still the rest of the universe. This realization should be very very humbling if we really grasp it. Isolation and independent security is impossible. 



   Since our karma is intertwined with all sentient being, it is the karma of all sentient being that needs worked out. The bodhisattva vows to save all being(s). The self not existing, it cannot be saved. To seek individual happiness is the delusion of desire. It's all and/or nothing.

   In practice, dealing with the karma of all sentient beings brings us right back to the first NT. Lots of suffering out there. What can we do with the human race? It seems like sickness old age and death are not only the lot of individuals, but the lot of our species and even the biosphere, eventually the planet solar system and galaxy.

   The lion evolved over millions of years. As the lion evolved longer teeth and claws, more cunning ways of hunting, the prey co-evolved longer legs and sharper senses. Now humans have evolved too fast for their prey, and the web of life, like planetary ice, is all but inevitably going to disappear. Rough karma, and its all our fault. Are we unnatural? No, all species grow to the limits of growth and then, after interspecific competition and cannibalisation, expire or achieve an equilibrium.

   We need to face our own more or less imminent death with equanimity, but can no longer console ourselves that "life goes on." Takes a lot of enlightenment to swallow this development. 

   They say the good people die first because they share their food.

   The point is we are all in this together as shar says and staying centered while the lemmings rush ever faster over the cliff and jostle you and challenge you for not going with the flow, well... In practice meditation might help more than tolerance and respect for the frantic revellers exacerbating all the problems. One can't rationally discuss things with someone who maintains that it is perfectly believable that hillary clinton ordered up babies from a local pizza place in order to have sex with them and then eat them. Hold the anchovies.

  We have to deal with the karma of our species and it is insupportable. This is the predicament we find ourselves in. No amount of insight is going to change the situation, it is already past the tipping point, and once the kayak goes over there is no setting it right. Paris accords, right; biden just released 50M bbls of oil to lower the price of gas for consumers. The planet is toast.

   We can sing and dance at the bonfire of vanities. There's a time to originate and a time to go extinct. We can face this with equanimity but it means acknowledging the scale of the tragedy. Considering the imminence of the tsunami, a lot of ordinary concerns become less meaningful. Brace yourself or not, everyone's going to get wet. Man the lifeboats, women and children first. And the living will envy the dead.

  It really doesn't matter if we burn less oil, or produce less plastic, the time for those measures is already past. It's more like we're the band on the titanic playing nearer my god to thee when the boats were all gone.

   We can still love, drink it in, revel in it. Like edna st vincent millay's first fig from thistles:

My candle burns at both ends;
   It will not last the night;
But ah, my foes, and oh, my friends—
   It gives a lovely light!

  
   We are a flame the earth wont see again for millions of years, a brief gleam of intelligence fatally flawed. Our profligacy is only matched by our potential for enjoyment. Who doesn't love fireworks? Should be quite a show.

terry



a rubaiyat of omar khayyam

LXXI
The Moving Finger writes; and, having writ,
Moves on: nor all your Piety nor Wit
Shall lure it back to cancel half a Line,
Nor all your Tears wash out a Word of it.

This one is for terry   ... but only if he tunes that bleedn Uke of his! (or did the Uke end up as your dog's fav chewing tool? )   

"Zazen is good for nothing"
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8T-Z1WoFXkk

from "the need for roots" by simone weil


​​​​​​​The object of any obligation, in the realm of human affairs, is always the human being as such. There exists an obligation towards every human being for the sole reason that he or she is a human being, without any other condition requiring to be fulfilled, and even without any recognition of such obligation on the part of the individual concerned.

This obligation is not based upon any de facto situation, nor upon jurisprudence, customs, social structure, relative state of forces, historical heritage, or presumed historical orientation; for no de facto situation is able to create an obligation.

This obligation is not based upon any convention; for all conventions are liable to be modified according to the wishes of the contracting parties, whereas in this case no change in the mind and will of Man can modify anything whatsoever.

This obligation is an eternal one. It is coextensive with the eternal destiny of human beings. Only human beings have an eternal destiny. Human collectivities have not got one. Nor are there, in regard to the latter, any direct obligations of an eternal nature. Duty towards the human being as such—that alone is eternal.

This obligation is an unconditional one. If it is founded on something, that something, whatever it is, does not form part of our world. In our world, it is not founded on anything at all. It is the one and only obligation in connexion with human affairs that is not subject to any condition.

This obligation has no foundation, but only a verification in the common consent accorded by the universal conscience. It finds expression in some of the oldest written texts which have come down to us. It is recognized by everybody without exception in every single case where it is not attacked as a result of interest or passion. And it is in relation to it that we measure our progress.

I put the uke on a high shelf to keep it away from the dog then forgot to transport it so havent had it around when I wanted it. I'm fixing to start regular practice tonight though as carol has the dog in hawi and Im in ocean view. Dog is half grown and a fairly intense little unit. Must be 35lbs already.


As for the video, like he says he understood it intellectually but only suddenly one day realized how the practice is good for nothing and not for some sort of attainment. Nothing actually is the attainment. You really have to know nothing to appreciate it.

Puts us one up on most folk, eh? Knowing nothing is hard work but somebody has to do it.

t

one for you, uncle...


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JEorK1_DWSs

The best solvent* for attachment in my opinion is metta

(*Something that dissolves attachments.)

I don't know why. Maybe its because, as someone once said to me, love is the opposite of fear. Dukkha is stress (fight or flight) and letting go = relaxation. The opposite of fear (fight or flight), metta, ought to be just the thing to dissolve dukkha. In my experience it works very very well, and it is within reach of most people, more so than piti or sukha or cessation.

That over an hour!!! With two kids, dog, wifey, cat, job, Xmas madness, ... I've rather spend that time watching that new Beatles documentary!  

"the new beatles documentary"!

"Xmas madness"

social obligations...


how could zen compete, old fools lecturing nincompoops, with such enticements! who would drink water if they could have soda pop!


just think of it: NEW! BEATLES! DOCUMENTARY! (I once declined a ticket to see the fab four at shea stadium in new york, because I thought girls screaming at english guys in suits who wanted to hold their hands was irredeemably stupid and that they wouldn't catch on in the face of american folk soul and blues)

my friend, as with old chang, I have only nothing to say...


(anyhows, gotta put nose to grindstone, santa's workshop in full swing)


merry Xmas...

This looks very timely:

The Mahasi Debate -- Dhammarato and Daniel Ingram
Guru Viking
10 December 2021 14.00 GMT
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0zKcGa1a-VA

In this episode I host a third dialogue between Dhammarato and Daniel Ingram, this time on the vipassana meditation method of the highly influential Burmese monk Mahasi Sayadaw.

Very much looking forward to listening to this!

​​​​​​​

Me too looking forward to it however this might be a bit like Bob Marley having discussion with Ingram about Mahasi method  

The Guru Viking discussion is available on YouTube now. I've also added it to the "Daniel M. Ingram" playlist: https://youtube.com/playlist?list=PL0KBcae-bNOf6y0k5SM7YD5UYtGTRAPGL

I am half way through it and it seems that Dhammarato is, like most teachers, attached to a particular method he believes to be the original teaching of the Buddha, while deviating frameworks are not welcomed.
Not saying that he is a bad teacher, just that he is not Daniel's league in terms of Kegan-stage-5 meta-framework flexibility.

Ian

I think the podcast needs a separate post for comments. Can you post it in another thread?

​​​​​​​Thank you, David

"gladden the mind, gladden the mind, gladden the mind, gladden the mind, gladden the mind ..." As I said "Bob Marley discussing Mahasi method with Ingram". Im off to walk my little dog friend now and play with my kids!

p.s. btw, F..k the Mind!

-1 
​​​​​​​  

Reggae, techno, s'all good  

Just to put this out there for those who fancy hearing a different twist to this unfolding "reality". 

I truly believe triangulating between methods (as per Kenneth Folk) provides us with tools for many different aspects of This sensation rea
lity unfolding. 

Do not exclude any of it. 

As Kenneth so wisely say "do not panic, we only have to awaken to everything" which includes the Jhanic Deva realms, Azura, Human, Aninal, Hell, Hungry Ghosts! 

We need to awaken to it all, the Jhana, the relaxing calmness, the hindrances also, the reactive patterns, ... 

All practices are good practices; Jhana, Noting Vipassana, Tonglen, Metta, sitting, walking, etc , self-inquiry, Kasina, ... 

All these can be applied at one or another stage or time. 
One starts with one practice and pushes on with it. Then after a few months, or years one might feel different approach is needed. 
And if that new approach dose result in cessation shift we , of course, talk highly about it  

But truth be told, the previous model has also benefited the journey  

Its all good. 

May all beings be free from suffering, may all beings awaken, may all beings be happy. 

+1

Everything is practice. How can we awaken to all of it if it ain't already all awake? (even when it thinks it isn't!)

Feel free to ignore this nonsense  

+1 !

Papa Che Dusko, nicely explained and this happens to be exactly what I needed to hear lately for my practice.

To everyone or anyone: I see people in threads when they respond to others, putting in a white box the specific words or paragraph they respond to (e.g. see post 1049 above) then responding to it under it. How does one do that (put in white box)? Thanks.

​​​​​​​Ben -

When you reply to a comment you can quote the comment: copy the part of the previous post you want to put in the white box and copy it into your reply. Then highlight, with your cursor, the text you want to put in the quote box (that's the white-ish box you're seeing). Then click on the quote symbol in the edit menu just above your reply.

​​​​​​​

Thanks! Got it!

"Feel free to ignore this nonsense"

Will do my best ... lemme see ... "gladden the mind, gladden the mind, gladden the mind ... ah feck it! I think my 1st Jhana is broken! I want my money back!!!  

<br /><br /><br />yeah I tried the quote thing and no way jose..<br /><br />anyhows,<br /><br />pcd said:<br /> <blockquote><p><br /><em>p.s. btw, F..k the Mind! <img alt="" src="https://www.dharmaoverground.org/o/classic-theme/images/emoticons/smile.gif" /></em><br /><br /><br />&nbsp; &nbsp;yea, bra, if you back the mind up against a cliff drop off and take her from behind, she comes back at you better...<br /><br />t</p></blockquote>

success! deathray says, your post is hereby messed up!

try again

pcd said:

p.s. btw, F..k the Mind! 

​​​​​​​

yea, bra, if you back the mind up against a cliff drop off and take her from behind, she comes back at you better...

With regard to the items I listed at the beginning of this thread Dhammarato and Daniel appeared to agree on at least three important points: (1) that the need to remove the hindrances as soon as they are noticed is part of the Buddha's teachings and is present in Mahāsī Sayādaw's version of vipassana, that this important element is weak in Sayadaw U Pandita's version, and almost entirely absent in Western vipassana practice; (2) that practitioners need a Sangha of some kind, and (3) that the dukkha-ñānas are not an interminable and inescapable part of following the path.

This all seems rather notable.