RE: A critique on the necessity of Dark Night of the soul

A critique on the necessity of Dark Night of the soul Coiby Xu 6/21/24 9:05 AM
RE: A critique on the necessity of Dark Night of the soul Matt Jon Rousseau 6/19/24 3:43 AM
RE: A critique on the necessity of Dark Night of the soul Bahiya Baby 6/19/24 3:58 AM
RE: A critique on the necessity of Dark Night of the soul Coiby Xu 6/21/24 8:56 AM
RE: A critique on the necessity of Dark Night of the soul Papa Che Dusko 6/21/24 4:12 PM
RE: A critique on the necessity of Dark Night of the soul Matt Jon Rousseau 6/21/24 4:27 PM
RE: A critique on the necessity of Dark Night of the soul Martin 6/21/24 7:36 PM
RE: A critique on the necessity of Dark Night of the soul Coiby Xu 6/21/24 8:25 PM
RE: A critique on the necessity of Dark Night of the soul Dream Walker 6/19/24 4:55 AM
RE: A critique on the necessity of Dark Night of the soul Jim Smith 6/19/24 5:44 AM
RE: A critique on the necessity of Dark Night of the soul Martin 6/19/24 11:05 AM
RE: A critique on the necessity of Dark Night of the soul Coiby Xu 6/22/24 6:55 PM
RE: A critique on the necessity of Dark Night of the soul Chris M 6/21/24 9:10 AM
RE: A critique on the necessity of Dark Night of the soul Papa Che Dusko 6/21/24 4:20 PM
RE: A critique on the necessity of Dark Night of the soul Coiby Xu 6/22/24 6:38 PM
RE: A critique on the necessity of Dark Night of the soul Pepe · 6/21/24 10:22 PM
RE: A critique on the necessity of Dark Night of the soul Coiby Xu 6/22/24 6:34 PM
RE: A critique on the necessity of Dark Night of the soul terry 6/22/24 7:33 PM
RE: A critique on the necessity of Dark Night of the soul terry 6/22/24 7:39 PM
RE: A critique on the necessity of Dark Night of the soul Matt Jon Rousseau 6/23/24 3:33 AM
RE: A critique on the necessity of Dark Night of the soul Papa Che Dusko 6/23/24 6:39 AM
RE: A critique on the necessity of Dark Night of the soul terry 6/24/24 4:54 PM
RE: A critique on the necessity of Dark Night of the soul Papa Che Dusko 6/24/24 8:13 PM
RE: A critique on the necessity of Dark Night of the soul terry 6/24/24 4:48 PM
RE: A critique on the necessity of Dark Night of the soul Matt Jon Rousseau 6/23/24 7:09 PM
RE: A critique on the necessity of Dark Night of the soul Papa Che Dusko 6/24/24 8:14 PM
Coiby Xu, modified 7 Days ago at 6/21/24 9:05 AM
Created 9 Days ago at 6/18/24 10:07 PM

A critique on the necessity of Dark Night of the soul

Posts: 7 Join Date: 7/17/16 Recent Posts
TLDL: https://opensanghafoundation.org/newsite/dark-night-of-the-soul/ argues 16 stages of insight is not the teaching of the Buddha and the method is basically is "Dukkha,more Dukkha" instead of "Dukkha, Dukkha Nirodha".

*********************************
Moderator action required:

I've removed the lengthy copied and pasted content originally posted in this comment because it may be copyrighted and we don't allow entire copyrighted pieces to be posted to DhO. There is a link, which I edited to be clickable, to the original material in the comment above. Please use that link.

Thanks,

Chris M
DhO Moderator
Top
Matt Jon Rousseau, modified 9 Days ago at 6/19/24 3:43 AM
Created 9 Days ago at 6/19/24 3:43 AM

RE: A critique on the necessity of Dark Night of the soul

Posts: 190 Join Date: 5/1/22 Recent Posts
You can see the dark night everywhere in the Buddha's biography  before enlightenment
Top
thumbnail
Bahiya Baby, modified 9 Days ago at 6/19/24 3:58 AM
Created 9 Days ago at 6/19/24 3:57 AM

RE: A critique on the necessity of Dark Night of the soul

Posts: 540 Join Date: 5/26/23 Recent Posts
Those bloody western Buddhists again is it? Somebody shut the gates before any of them get in here. 
Top
thumbnail
Dream Walker, modified 9 Days ago at 6/19/24 4:55 AM
Created 9 Days ago at 6/19/24 4:55 AM

RE: A critique on the necessity of Dark Night of the soul

Posts: 1757 Join Date: 1/18/12 Recent Posts
Coiby Xu
TLDL: 
OMG you know how to cut and paste!!!
Good job you...
Maybe you might try to ....

​​​​​​​~D
Top
thumbnail
Jim Smith, modified 9 Days ago at 6/19/24 5:44 AM
Created 9 Days ago at 6/19/24 5:44 AM

RE: A critique on the necessity of Dark Night of the soul

Posts: 1763 Join Date: 1/17/15 Recent Posts
Coiby Xu
...
Okay, so in fact, you could say that the entire teachings of the Buddha is a DIY instruction kit of changing. And what are we going to change? The absolute easiest thing there is to change is this thought, because they just go bye-bye-bye. There's just one thought after another. You know how the human mind, one image after another or one verbal thought after another, they just roll on by. So if they're there and so intangible, you'd think it'd be easy enough to change, now wouldn't you? In fact, all you have to do is remember to change it, and the remembering to change it, in fact, has already changed it. 

Now you're remembering to change it, that's the thought. And so this is where the Mahasi or the Western Buddhism has forgotten how important the quality of the Noble Path is, in the sense of the right effort to remove the hindrances. Now it's very explicit in the actual Anapanasati Sutra (MN 118) of using the word "gladdening the mind." Now the interesting part about it is that it's not talking about gladdening the mind in the sense of just the thoughts, because that's more the content of the mind. But rather, changing the state of mind. And when you change the state of mind, it will change the thoughts. And quite often, the reverse is true too.

You change the thoughts you're having, and it'll change your state of mind. For instance, "Oh, I hate this" is in one kind of state of mind. And then the next word would be, "Oh, never mind," and now my state has changed. And so, the whole point here is by actually making the change from unwholesome into wholesome actually means we're going to actually put a positive spin on things. Another way of thinking about it is that we're no longer going to be judgmental or seeing what's right and what's wrong, or what we would mean by a critical mind. And go back to the original job of mommy. Mommy gets really critical with a five-year-old, but her original job was to be nurturing. And this is what we need to do, is we need to start nurturing ourselves, letting ourselves be okay the way that we are. Everything is all right right here, right now, warts and all. And we don't have to sit there and enumerate the warts, which they want you to do in the Mahasi method. 

Just say you're already okay, forget about it. Let the past go and be here now with some really wholesome thoughts and some really wholesome feelings about what's happening right here, right now. Now, that's the actual Noble Path and Four Noble Truths, and that we can start on that as soon as we recognize, "I have seen enough Dukkha already," and now I'm going to start dealing with it directly by shoving it aside, throwing it out. 

So here's a little example of this. Imagine that you're out on the road, and along down the way there, you see a big, big truck coming. It may be even blowing its horn, telling you, "Here he comes!" Now, the Mahasi method is to stand there and take it like a man, Mr. Popeye style, with, you know, Popeye the Sailor Man, and we just stand there and we just stop that truck, right? And it runs right over us. 

...



Is there somewhere on-line I could read more about how to do this? I would like to see some examples of how to replace an unwholesome thought with a wholesome thought.  

Thanks
Top
Martin, modified 9 Days ago at 6/19/24 11:05 AM
Created 9 Days ago at 6/19/24 11:05 AM

RE: A critique on the necessity of Dark Night of the soul

Posts: 889 Join Date: 4/25/20 Recent Posts
This is the approach taught by Dhammarato. He has lots of videos on YouTube about it. 
Top
Coiby Xu, modified 7 Days ago at 6/21/24 8:56 AM
Created 7 Days ago at 6/21/24 8:56 AM

RE: A critique on the necessity of Dark Night of the soul

Posts: 7 Join Date: 7/17/16 Recent Posts
Matt Jon Rousseau
You can see the dark night everywhere in the Buddha's biography  before enlightenment
Can you list some references about the dark night as I can't find related texts in MN 36: Maha-Saccaka Sutta?
Top
thumbnail
Chris M, modified 7 Days ago at 6/21/24 9:10 AM
Created 7 Days ago at 6/21/24 9:10 AM

RE: A critique on the necessity of Dark Night of the soul

Posts: 5305 Join Date: 1/26/13 Recent Posts
I've removed the lengthy copied and pasted content originally contained in the original post because it may be copyrighted and we don't allow entire copyrighted pieces to be posted to DhO. There is a link, which I edited to be clickable, to the original material in the original post above. Please use that link.

Thanks,

Chris M
DhO Moderator
Top
thumbnail
Papa Che Dusko, modified 7 Days ago at 6/21/24 4:12 PM
Created 7 Days ago at 6/21/24 4:12 PM

RE: A critique on the necessity of Dark Night of the soul

Posts: 2898 Join Date: 3/1/20 Recent Posts
Oh! Is it popcorn time again? 
Top
thumbnail
Papa Che Dusko, modified 7 Days ago at 6/21/24 4:20 PM
Created 7 Days ago at 6/21/24 4:20 PM

RE: A critique on the necessity of Dark Night of the soul

Posts: 2898 Join Date: 3/1/20 Recent Posts
" "I have seen enough Dukkha already," and now I'm going to start dealing with it directly by shoving it aside, throwing it out. "

Oh jeez! emoticon This is a terrific recipe for HOW TO GET MORE DUKKHA. But its ok emoticon This too can lead the way, the Dukkha way towards liberation. The liberation that is not by forcing anything aside or throwing out, but by thisness being more of a 4 Brahmavihharas based amidst the unfolding karmic stuff of this human life we live. 

Dukkha is a result of any one "thing" believed to be more important, more I, more mine, more me, more other, more better or worse, more inside or more outside, etc ... basically much more better than all the myriad stuff co-arising with "it" but the blind belief can not see this hence emoticon yes, you get it now don't ya emoticon Dukkha commeth to be upon the sense of it happening to me (sense of ownership).

I think this DhO place might do you good my friend emoticon Best wishes and may you be free from dukkha, may you awaken, may you be truly happy. 
Top
Matt Jon Rousseau, modified 7 Days ago at 6/21/24 4:27 PM
Created 7 Days ago at 6/21/24 4:27 PM

RE: A critique on the necessity of Dark Night of the soul

Posts: 190 Join Date: 5/1/22 Recent Posts
Coiby Xu
Matt Jon Rousseau
You can see the dark night everywhere in the Buddha's biography  before enlightenment
Can you list some references about the dark night as I can't find related texts in MN 36: Maha-Saccaka Sutta?
The Buddha left his home  as a prince. Left his wife and baby because he felt suffering in everything. Then he became an ascetic,  al.ost starved himself to death. If that doesn't sound like spiritual  turmoil, what does? You see similar things with Christian  monks all throughout  history.   I gather there is something to it. IS IT nessisary?   I don't know . 
Top
Martin, modified 7 Days ago at 6/21/24 7:36 PM
Created 7 Days ago at 6/21/24 7:36 PM

RE: A critique on the necessity of Dark Night of the soul

Posts: 889 Join Date: 4/25/20 Recent Posts
It's good to keep in mind that those were not unusual things to do at the time. What was unusual was finding another way to do things, a middle way, which was good in the beginning, good in the middle, and good in the end. I agree that emotional turmoil is pretty common on spiritual paths but I don't see anything to suggest that the Buddha taught others to expect emotional turmoil when they started with his system. 

That does not mean that the POI, including dark night, is not an effective approach. There are numerous effective approaches that were developed after the Buddha's time. 
Top
Coiby Xu, modified 6 Days ago at 6/22/24 6:38 PM
Created 6 Days ago at 6/21/24 8:13 PM

RE: A critique on the necessity of Dark Night of the soul

Posts: 7 Join Date: 7/17/16 Recent Posts
Papa Che Dusko
" "I have seen enough Dukkha already," and now I'm going to start dealing with it directly by shoving it aside, throwing it out. "

Oh jeez! emoticon This is a terrific recipe for HOW TO GET MORE DUKKHA. But its ok emoticon This too can lead the way, the Dukkha way towards liberation. The liberation that is not by forcing anything aside or throwing out, but by thisness being more of a 4 Brahmavihharas based amidst the unfolding karmic stuff of this human life we live. 
I think that article doesn't suggest throwing out by foce and instead recommends doing it in "Buddha's way, the Anapanasati way",
And then there is the Buddha's way, the Anapanasati way, and that is just step aside, just get out of your own way, just move an inch or two and let it go, rushing right on by. We don't have to get hit, we don't have to stand in our own way. So this is the major change in the technique.
(the above text is quoted from the critique).
​​​​​​​


Dukkha is a result of any one "thing" believed to be more important, more I, more mine, more me, more other, more better or worse, more inside or more outside, etc ... basically much more better than all the myriad stuff co-arising with "it" but the blind belief can not see this hence emoticon yes, you get it now don't ya emoticon Dukkha commeth to be upon the sense of it happening to me (sense of ownership).

I think this DhO place might do you good my friend emoticon Best wishes and may you be free from dukkha, may you awaken, may you be truly happy. 
Thank you for your wishes!

To clarify, I'm almost confident the Mahasi method will help me find out how suffering is created and what's the psychological structure of the self. Acutally, mainly inspired by MTCB and two articles (BUDDHIST PHENOMENOLOGY, Mysticism and beyond, Buddhist phenomenology, part II),  I did two month-long Mahasi retreats on 2016 and 2017 in Burma and had consistent daily practice. This month I did a 10-day Mahasi retreat in China again. During these retreats, I burst into tears twice and the accompanying thought is do humans really have to go through the enomous pain and suffereing in order to get "libereated". If there is an easier path, why bother a harder path? During this month's 10-day retreat, the teacher says the pain of the ankle is nothing compared with the one felt during stage 6-8 i.e. when one really understand what dukkha means and I'm surprised to hear one practitioner even the pain of the ankle is twice as much as the pain during labor.

On Feb 2019, I began to practice under the guidance of Dhammarato who have been explicitly emphasizing joy from the beginning which I thought was missing in my meditation history and is in the lineage of Bhikkhu Buddhadasa. The biggest lesson I learnt from him when I realized I was lost in thought or a misery or a hindrance, I would congratulate myself by saying "Aha, I caught you!" and "never mind; start again". I also went to Thailand to do two meditaion retreats encouraged by Dhammarato. But I don't think I've verified the teachings offered from Dhammarato. 

This year in order to thank Dhammarato's past generous guidance to me, I helped him improve https://opensanghafoundation.org/. Then I  stumbled upon the shared critique (which btw I guess is written by Dhammarato) and realized that's the summary of what Dhammarato tried to teach me in 2019. I shared the critique in order to know dark night is really necessary. I think the critique recommends practicing Anapanasati to develop jhanas instead. According to the meditation teacher of this month's retreat, jhanas could suppress hindrances but developing jhanas first could be a much harder path. He compared developing jhanas to building a bridge to cross a river and insight meditation to swimming across the river. But I don't have enough experience which path is better. So any suggestion will be welcome!
Top
Coiby Xu, modified 6 Days ago at 6/21/24 8:25 PM
Created 6 Days ago at 6/21/24 8:23 PM

RE: A critique on the necessity of Dark Night of the soul

Posts: 7 Join Date: 7/17/16 Recent Posts
Matt Jon Rousseau
Coiby Xu
Matt Jon Rousseau
You can see the dark night everywhere in the Buddha's biography  before enlightenment
Can you list some references about the dark night as I can't find related texts in MN 36: Maha-Saccaka Sutta?
The Buddha left his home  as a prince. Left his wife and baby because he felt suffering in everything. Then he became an ascetic,  al.ost starved himself to death. If that doesn't sound like spiritual  turmoil, what does? You see similar things with Christian  monks all throughout  history.   I gather there is something to it. IS IT nessisary?   I don't know . 
Adminttedly, these are sufferings. But I think dark night is a special team and exclusively means stage 6-8 in the model of 16-stages of insight. In fact, I would regard something like starving oneself to death as a failed attemp of Buddha thus completely unnecessary if I understand MN 36: Maha-Saccaka Sutta correctly.
Top
thumbnail
Pepe ·, modified 6 Days ago at 6/21/24 10:22 PM
Created 6 Days ago at 6/21/24 10:22 PM

RE: A critique on the necessity of Dark Night of the soul

Posts: 735 Join Date: 9/26/18 Recent Posts
Coiby Xu:

There are 7 Factors of Awakening, and one of them is Rapture, which balance the equation between those more vipassana-like with those more samatha-like, check Daniel Ingram's Framework. Then, below you'll find tips on how to work with Dukkha. 
Top
Coiby Xu, modified 6 Days ago at 6/22/24 6:55 PM
Created 6 Days ago at 6/22/24 6:26 PM

RE: A critique on the necessity of Dark Night of the soul

Posts: 7 Join Date: 7/17/16 Recent Posts
Jim Smith
Coiby Xu
...
Okay, so in fact, you could say that the entire teachings of the Buddha is a DIY instruction kit of changing. And what are we going to change? The absolute easiest thing there is to change is this thought, because they just go bye-bye-bye. There's just one thought after another. You know how the human mind, one image after another or one verbal thought after another, they just roll on by. So if they're there and so intangible, you'd think it'd be easy enough to change, now wouldn't you? In fact, all you have to do is remember to change it, and the remembering to change it, in fact, has already changed it. 

Now you're remembering to change it, that's the thought. And so this is where the Mahasi or the Western Buddhism has forgotten how important the quality of the Noble Path is, in the sense of the right effort to remove the hindrances. Now it's very explicit in the actual Anapanasati Sutra (MN 118) of using the word "gladdening the mind." Now the interesting part about it is that it's not talking about gladdening the mind in the sense of just the thoughts, because that's more the content of the mind. But rather, changing the state of mind. And when you change the state of mind, it will change the thoughts. And quite often, the reverse is true too.

You change the thoughts you're having, and it'll change your state of mind. For instance, "Oh, I hate this" is in one kind of state of mind. And then the next word would be, "Oh, never mind," and now my state has changed. And so, the whole point here is by actually making the change from unwholesome into wholesome actually means we're going to actually put a positive spin on things. Another way of thinking about it is that we're no longer going to be judgmental or seeing what's right and what's wrong, or what we would mean by a critical mind. And go back to the original job of mommy. Mommy gets really critical with a five-year-old, but her original job was to be nurturing. And this is what we need to do, is we need to start nurturing ourselves, letting ourselves be okay the way that we are. Everything is all right right here, right now, warts and all. And we don't have to sit there and enumerate the warts, which they want you to do in the Mahasi method. 

Just say you're already okay, forget about it. Let the past go and be here now with some really wholesome thoughts and some really wholesome feelings about what's happening right here, right now. Now, that's the actual Noble Path and Four Noble Truths, and that we can start on that as soon as we recognize, "I have seen enough Dukkha already," and now I'm going to start dealing with it directly by shoving it aside, throwing it out. 

So here's a little example of this. Imagine that you're out on the road, and along down the way there, you see a big, big truck coming. It may be even blowing its horn, telling you, "Here he comes!" Now, the Mahasi method is to stand there and take it like a man, Mr. Popeye style, with, you know, Popeye the Sailor Man, and we just stand there and we just stop that truck, right? And it runs right over us. 

...



Is there somewhere on-line I could read more about how to do this? I would like to see some examples of how to replace an unwholesome thought with a wholesome thought.  

Thank

As mentioned by Martin, You can visit Dhammarato's youtube channel. If you prefers to read the text, you can visit Archive of Dhammarato's Dhamma Talks and recent talks like Awakening From the Victim Mindset - Sangha US 05-10-2024 (the summary) or You Don't Have to Fix The World Sangha UK #210 04.14.24 (the summary) talk a lot by replacing unwholehome thoughts with wholesome ones.
Top
Coiby Xu, modified 6 Days ago at 6/22/24 6:34 PM
Created 6 Days ago at 6/22/24 6:34 PM

RE: A critique on the necessity of Dark Night of the soul

Posts: 7 Join Date: 7/17/16 Recent Posts
Pepe · Coiby Xu: There are 7 Factors of Awakening, and one of them is Rapture, which balance the equation between those more vipassana-like with those more samatha-like, check Daniel Ingram's Framework. Then, below you'll find tips on how to work with Dukkha. 


Hi Pepe, thank you for pointing me to Daniel Ingram's Framework and the tips! Yes, loving-kindness is exactly what I plan to establish as a daily practice.  I will also give a try on the tips on how to work with Dukkha.
Top
thumbnail
terry, modified 6 Days ago at 6/22/24 7:33 PM
Created 6 Days ago at 6/22/24 7:33 PM

RE: A critique on the necessity of Dark Night of the soul

Posts: 2568 Join Date: 8/7/17 Recent Posts
   I found myself agreeing with most of the talk. I think the dark night of the soul thing a christian addition to buddhism. Hell, the devil, brimstone and fire, the usual horrors of the cruel western mind imposed on a middle way designed to avoid all that. Mara was a friend of the buddha and the hell realm a regular part of life. Not some rite of passage,some obstacle to be defeated or mastered. Dukkha is part of all things and will not be superseded. It is ego transcendence that is at stake, not ego satisfaction. If you didn't know sour, you wouldn't know sweet.

   Dwelling on one's own well-earned depression as a major step forward in spiritual mastery is a western vanity. Rather like white people singing the blues they really really don't understand. Western buddhists by and large have nothing to complain about except their own deficiencies. Boo-hoo.

​​​​​​​   And the solution is indeed the practice of compassion.
Top
thumbnail
terry, modified 6 Days ago at 6/22/24 7:39 PM
Created 6 Days ago at 6/22/24 7:39 PM

RE: A critique on the necessity of Dark Night of the soul

Posts: 2568 Join Date: 8/7/17 Recent Posts
terry
   I found myself agreeing with most of the talk. I think the dark night of the soul thing a christian addition to buddhism. Hell, the devil, brimstone and fire, the usual horrors of the cruel western mind imposed on a middle way designed to avoid all that. Mara was a friend of the buddha and the hell realm a regular part of life. Not some rite of passage,some obstacle to be defeated or mastered. Dukkha is part of all things and will not be superseded. It is ego transcendence that is at stake, not ego satisfaction. If you didn't know sour, you wouldn't know sweet.

   Dwelling on one's own well-earned depression as a major step forward in spiritual mastery is a western vanity. Rather like white people singing the blues they really really don't understand. Western buddhists by and large have nothing to complain about except their own deficiencies. Boo-hoo.

​​​​​​​   And the solution is indeed the practice of compassion.


from the tao te ching trans feng


​​​​​​​Thirteen

Accept disgrace willingly.
Accept misfortune as the human condition.

What do you mean by "Accept disgrace willingly"?
Accept being unimportant.
Do not be concerned with loss or gain.
This is called "accepting disgrace willingly."

What do you mean by "Accept misfortune as the human condition"?
Misfortune comes from having a body.
Without a body, how could there be misfortune?

Surrender yourself humbly; then you can be trusted to care for all things.
Love the world as your own self; then you can truly care for all things.

 
Top
Matt Jon Rousseau, modified 5 Days ago at 6/23/24 3:33 AM
Created 5 Days ago at 6/23/24 3:33 AM

RE: A critique on the necessity of Dark Night of the soul

Posts: 190 Join Date: 5/1/22 Recent Posts
terry:
terry    I found myself agreeing with most of the talk. I think the dark night of the soul thing a christian addition to buddhism. Hell, the devil, brimstone and fire, the usual horrors of the cruel western mind imposed on a middle way designed to avoid all that. Mara was a friend of the buddha and the hell realm a regular part of life. Not some rite of passage,some obstacle to be defeated or mastered. Dukkha is part of all things and will not be superseded. It is ego transcendence that is at stake, not ego satisfaction. If you didn't know sour, you wouldn't know sweet.    Dwelling on one's own well-earned depression as a major step forward in spiritual mastery is a western vanity. Rather like white people singing the blues they really really don't understand. Western buddhists by and large have nothing to complain about except their own deficiencies. Boo-hoo. ​​​​​​​   And the solution is indeed the practice of compassion.
from the tao te ching trans feng ​​​​​​​Thirteen Accept disgrace willingly. Accept misfortune as the human condition. What do you mean by "Accept disgrace willingly"? Accept being unimportant. Do not be concerned with loss or gain. This is called "accepting disgrace willingly." What do you mean by "Accept misfortune as the human condition"? Misfortune comes from having a body. Without a body, how could there be misfortune? Surrender yourself humbly; then you can be trusted to care for all things. Love the world as your own self; then you can truly care for all things.  

 Thats beautiful 
Top
thumbnail
Papa Che Dusko, modified 5 Days ago at 6/23/24 6:39 AM
Created 5 Days ago at 6/23/24 6:39 AM

RE: A critique on the necessity of Dark Night of the soul

Posts: 2898 Join Date: 3/1/20 Recent Posts
Don't encourage it, Merry! 
Top
Matt Jon Rousseau, modified 5 Days ago at 6/23/24 7:09 PM
Created 5 Days ago at 6/23/24 7:09 PM

RE: A critique on the necessity of Dark Night of the soul

Posts: 190 Join Date: 5/1/22 Recent Posts
Anything one tries to avoid  while doing vipassana  will stare them in the face at some point . Bet your ass
Top
thumbnail
terry, modified 4 Days ago at 6/24/24 4:48 PM
Created 4 Days ago at 6/24/24 4:48 PM

RE: A critique on the necessity of Dark Night of the soul

Posts: 2568 Join Date: 8/7/17 Recent Posts
Matt Jon Rousseau
terry
terry    I found myself agreeing with most of the talk. I think the dark night of the soul thing a christian addition to buddhism. Hell, the devil, brimstone and fire, the usual horrors of the cruel western mind imposed on a middle way designed to avoid all that. Mara was a friend of the buddha and the hell realm a regular part of life. Not some rite of passage,some obstacle to be defeated or mastered. Dukkha is part of all things and will not be superseded. It is ego transcendence that is at stake, not ego satisfaction. If you didn't know sour, you wouldn't know sweet.    Dwelling on one's own well-earned depression as a major step forward in spiritual mastery is a western vanity. Rather like white people singing the blues they really really don't understand. Western buddhists by and large have nothing to complain about except their own deficiencies. Boo-hoo. ​​​​​​​   And the solution is indeed the practice of compassion.
from the tao te ching trans feng ​​​​​​​Thirteen Accept disgrace willingly. Accept misfortune as the human condition. What do you mean by "Accept disgrace willingly"? Accept being unimportant. Do not be concerned with loss or gain. This is called "accepting disgrace willingly." What do you mean by "Accept misfortune as the human condition"? Misfortune comes from having a body. Without a body, how could there be misfortune? Surrender yourself humbly; then you can be trusted to care for all things. Love the world as your own self; then you can truly care for all things.  

 Thats beautiful 


Why thank you, my friend.

I think the buddha's "turmoil" was similar to that of the overpriveleged western buddhist, though not a dark night. He was pampered and encouraged to think himself worthy of preference. One can understand the anguish of a slave owner's son in an oppressive society without pity or even much sympathy.  The buddha "earned merits" by repudiating his priveleged existence, and atoning for it through austerities. Buddhists are wise to follow his example.

The real problem of the world is inequality, and it is the privileged who aren't willing to give up their status, indeed seek to add to it. My daughter in law conplained the other day about the price of milk, and blamed recent increases in the minimum wage. I told her we needed a communist revolution, one world government and ai replacing "the market" in distribution of goods. 
Top
thumbnail
terry, modified 4 Days ago at 6/24/24 4:54 PM
Created 4 Days ago at 6/24/24 4:54 PM

RE: A critique on the necessity of Dark Night of the soul

Posts: 2568 Join Date: 8/7/17 Recent Posts
Papa Che Dusko
Don't encourage it, Merry! 


too right, bra - see what happens?
Top
thumbnail
Papa Che Dusko, modified 3 Days ago at 6/24/24 8:13 PM
Created 3 Days ago at 6/24/24 8:13 PM

RE: A critique on the necessity of Dark Night of the soul

Posts: 2898 Join Date: 3/1/20 Recent Posts
terry:
Papa Che Dusko Don't encourage it, Merry! 
too right, bra - see what happens?


Yeah I do! emoticon Mordor Nana arises and the Dark Night of the Soul gets ignited, burning bright and true in the darkness of emptiness! Shinglings spark here and there showing off their demonic teeth to the seeker who is falling down the labyrinths of forgiveness just to be reborn again. 

​​​​​​​- by papaji Che 2024 BC 
Top
thumbnail
Papa Che Dusko, modified 3 Days ago at 6/24/24 8:14 PM
Created 3 Days ago at 6/24/24 8:14 PM

RE: A critique on the necessity of Dark Night of the soul

Posts: 2898 Join Date: 3/1/20 Recent Posts
It's the law of Karma bra! Well said! emoticon 
Top

Breadcrumb