G'day to everyone!

Some time back, I sought out some simple obligation towards the progenitors of Actual Freedom web site, regarding my writings. I was scared by their neutral silence, and I wrongly conceived that they were displeased with me. After further clarifications with them, now I understand that they are always my well wishers, and they are quite happy about me and my work.

So, with pleasure, now I launch my e-book 'ACTUAL FREEDOM - MADE EASY '{please find the attachment}, that includes the earlier removed portions too.

I hereby furnish the downloading links too for my E-book : Actual Freedom - Made Easy.


1. Scribd Portal (Viewing + downloading):

a. Actual Freedom - Made Easy (E-reading version):
http://www.scribd.com/doc/84877549


b. Actual Freedom - Made Easy (Print friendly edition):
http://www.scribd.com/doc/84877290


2. Google docs (Viewing + downloading):

a. Actual Freedom - Made Easy (E-reading version):
https://docs.google.com/open?id=0B-B_O_ms6bsYLXNxQWsyaFdSVUN3NlBJbTExSkthQQ


b. Actual Freedom - Made Easy (Print friendly edition):
https://docs.google.com/open?id=0B-B_O_ms6bsYOXdjcXdMNDVSOGk5akpNT1ZKMkpqZw


3. Calameo (Flip page reader):


a. Actual Freedom - Made Easy (E-reading version):
http://www.calameo.com/read/001100941868620b67859


b. Actual Freedom - Made Easy (Print friendly edition):
http://www.calameo.com/read/0011009415de3884370ea




Regards,

Justine

Hi Justine,

Could you please elaborate on Q 45. What does 'anger' look like if it still is 'there' in your experience?



Edit: And question 87, can you elaborate on what you mean 'feeling':



and then later:


Are you a man with 'feeling' still? What does 'feeling' mean in this context? Or are you calling a man with being but without feeling a psychopath?


Oh, and what does it mean when you say:



How does the experience of being 'scared' play out in your experience?

Edit: Also in the quote of yours below in "A Day In My Life" section, what does 'strengthen my actualisation' mean? Could you elaborate? What does it change about the ongoing experience? Are there periods when your 'actualization' is not strong? How does this play out in the field of experience? Phenomenologically?

Also, how does 'hating' something also play out in your experience? What is the phenomenological expericne of 'loving' and 'hating' something now for you, like when you 'hate' driving but 'love' walking? How do you know you 'hate something so much? What signifies in the mind/body organism that there is 'hate' for something?



And this:


Could you please explain how the instinctual passions of fear, aggression and nuture are still experienced as 'traces' in you? How do they play out in the field of experience? Sensations? Mental movements? Thoughts? How are they experienced phenomenologically?

This post was not to argue about your claims but to clarify that which still is not talked of openly by many people claiming AF as far as I have read or been told. It would be beneficial for the DhO if you would clarify some of these queries. It will also help my own diagnosis of current ongoing experience.

If you wish to keep your answers out of public view, then consider PMing me or sending me an email at nhalay (at) gmail.

Thanks.

Nick

G'day,

1) Anger is a neutral energy capable of doing both good and bad. Actually free human is not a SUPERMAN.

2) I mean by 'feeling', sensory awareness of everything around my physical body.

3) Yes. I'm a man with 'feeling' still. Otherwise I will be a corpse.

4) 'Feeling' without the sense of 'ego identity', and altruistically self immolating myself, and going into that space of the Pristine Actuality, makes me a perfect human being. If I become obsessed with my 'ego identity' and make myself numb, insensitive, and go berserk, I become a psychopath.

5) Again, actually free person is not a superman. He will surely be scared mistaking a rope in the dark for a snake.

6) Actually free person can neither love nor hate. I hate cold water, but love hot water means, it only shows the situational preferences.

7) Traces of instinctual passions, phenomenologically cover sensations, mental movements, thoughts and everything of a person.

Thanks for sharing,

J.

Hi Justine,

Thanks or the replies.



How does this 'neutral energy' manifest in your experience, phenomenologically? Sensations in the chest, throat etc? A mental movement? A bouncing of attention from the sense object (that is the perceived object of a 'neutral anger') to something else within the mind/body organism?

I care little for calling you a superman but more so for the actual phenomenoligical experiences you describe. A few of us at the DhO have gotten to places that Richard has said are not where you currently claim you are, yet what you talk of in your book and talk of here in this thread points to the same place 'a few of us' have gotten to (and even surpassing such phenomena you describe, seeing that it does not arise at all such as the 'traces of instinctual passions you still claim to experience yet like a 'dead snake').



Ok.



Ok.



Ok.



I'm not calling you a superman. Far from it. So you experience 'fear'? How does it manifest phenomenologically? I have heard others talk of having absoultely no fear any longer. Yet, you are talking about 'being scared'. Can you elaborate please. "Being scared' seems to be an affective reaction. Is this a case of 'trace' of instinctual passions within you? Please describe how they manifest phenomenologically as it would help to know and would clear up and (mis)perceived inconsistencies on our part. If you are pointing to the 'traces', how does this manifest phenomenoligically? A sensation in the gut? mind movements? The attention bouncing from the perceived object of 'what makes one scared' (i.e. thoughts of the AF genitors silence concerning your Ebook) to somewhere else within the body?



How does the 'hate' and 'love' in situational contexts manifest phenomenologically? Sensations at the chest? mind movements? Attention bouncing from object hitting sense door (that is hated or loved) to something else (sensations in the body)?



Could you describe how these manifest in an example? Do you experience a sort of 'shadow' like occurence of what was once the gross 'identity' before your 'actualisation'? That is what 'traces' seems to point to.

Also could you answer the actualisation question? Do you experience periods/moments when your AF is weak as opposed to strong? (like after walking into town)? How does it manifest as weak? ow do you know it is weak? Is it the 'traces of instinctual passions' phenomena that causes it to not 'strengthen'? And there absence 'to strengthen'?

It is clear you are not a 'superman' and that is not the point of these queries. The point is to be absolutely honest and sharing of such phenomena, and to avoid any type of political avoidance of answering. This is the DhO, and posting your book here entitles others to ask such queries for clarification.

Thanks for taking the time to clarify these questions. They are important questions as so few people from Richard's camp proclaimed AF are willing to share such details. It is helpful for all beings at the DhO to do so and in particular for 'the few of us' who have had 'changes' and 'shifts' that seem very much to match your current situation.

Thanks for sharing. It is very helpful.

Regards,
Nick

Hi Nicolai,

1) I am pleased to reply your very deep queries. It helps me to have a self-check on myself too.

2) Yes. Anger or negative emotions are mostly a sense of sudden loss of vitality, a temporary disappearance of luminosity, a chocking sense in the chest area, a sudden dissent of dread. Biologically blood pressure may rise than usual. A spell of uncomfortableness. All the while, a safe detachment where Freedom remains intact. It is not disassociation but a wholesome experience which is inevitable in the present order of the world. Unshakable for me is not insensitivity to the throes and pulls of the world. They are passing things for which there is an allowance for a while and my vulnerability does not make me unfit of my actually free condition.

3) I cannot handle a live snake as a trained snake-charmer. It is not fear but prudence. I am not trained for that feat. Same way diplomacy. When I sense I may irritate the finer sensibilities of the AF progenitors, it is not desire, fear, nurture or aggression that operate but diplomacy and alertness to avoid unpleasant consequences, and my loyalty and kindness to my benefactors. These are not instinctual passions, but necessary swirls in the human interactions. All along the sense of freedom is intact. Actually free state is not 100% free of minor stresses and strains of day to day practical life. Only a robot can live like that. Since I am clear in myself that the 'entity' called 'I/Me', is my own imagination, I can handle these situations happily and harmlessly. Gut feelings, mind movements, sense of panic, uncomfortable sensations, descent to a pit, these are inevitable in the present order things anywhere or to anybody whether actually free or not. The difference is the actually free person does not get identified to them, whereas the normal people get 100% identified with them.

4) These biological and psychological churnings may vary from person to person. Each one's genetic codes vary. We cannot bind all in a single norm by name of any discipline. For me Actual Freedom means, my maximum possible participation by me in the ENDLESS PURITY THAT STEMS ENDLESSLY AS THIS UNIVERSE. That's all. I am keen on enjoying that purity and innocence, and PERFECTION that abounds minute by minute, all the while knowing very well that till the end of the death of my physical body, I have to live with some imperfections. I will never be 100% perfect.

5) For me delight of Freedom is much more lovable than the disciplinary activities of my ego 'I'.

6) I have accepted my imperfections while I clearly know NO DIRT ENTERS THE ACTUAL. My vulnerability to temporary dirt and chaos is part of the game. That way, I establish myself in PEACE, HAPPINESS, and HARMLESSNESS than suffer anguish for my short-comings.

Hope this answers your questions.

Regards,

Justine

Hi, Justine.

Thanks for your ebook. I'm enjoying your writing. It's refreshing to read about AF and actualism in kinder words.

D. Justine J



Could you clarify those sensations and feelings? With 'sense of panic', are you referring to survival reflexes? Like you getting cover after hearing a shot, for example? In the same example, would you still feel some affective reactions along with them or they merely physical and just disappear as the perceived danger passes? What about the others {'gut feelings', 'mind movements', 'uncomfortable sensations'}? In what kind of circumstances do they manifest and how?

Thanks

EDIT. Clarification

Hi Justin,

Thanks for taking the time to answer the queries.



Indeed.



Interesting. This is a mirror of my own ongoing experience. Though since the July shift there has been 2 more shifts which have reduced such experiences greatly. One could argue that this description by Justine matches 4th path to a degree sans the sense of 'being' which i also do not experience anymore since July last year. All this phenomena you describe, Justine, has been called 'shadow being' by 'a few of us' here at the DhO.



Do you still experience 'imagination', images in the mind's eye? Or have they changed in some? Absent in toto? In bold is what I would call 'shadow being' in my own experience, though sense of 'panic' hasn't been a part of the ongoing experience for awhile. Not sure if it would return for lack of a situation that would entail 'panic' beforehand. Uncomfortable sensations have also greatly reduced in the last 2 shifts due to 'actualizing jhana' technique. There is no identification with such phenomena in my current ongoing experience. Interesting, thanks for divulging, Justine.



What is an example of an 'imperfection'? How does it manifest phenomenologically?


How does the experience of an object being 'lovable' manifest? As a sensation in the chest? A mental movement? Attention bouncing from object to somewhere else in the body?



What question are you answering here?



Only 2 and 3 were answers I was after. The other answers avoided phenomenological descriptions for something a bit divergent. But your answers to 2 and 3 are quite revealing. By your descriptions, it would seem 'buddhistic' practices combined with the notion of apperceptive awareness lead to similar places if not the same (or better) places, where even what I called 'shadow' does not arise. Thanks Justine.

Nick

I'm enjoying the read. There is a lot here to learn and discern. Practice is the most important thing. Categories are meaningless and counter-productive. this book assists with both. those who are obsessed with categories will be able to read between the lines and make some tentative conclusions. those who just want to observe the self shrink and shrink and shrink while the emotions calm and calm and calm will find inspiration in this work. thank you nik for eliciting responses and clarification from justine. i, too, am intersted in categories even if they mean nothing. thank you justine for making it public. any and all info you wish to share about your life, your ideas, your practice will be enthusiastically read by yours truly.


peace.

jon

What is a 'category'?

Nickolai, perhaps you could also offer a description of your "shadow being" so that we can compare without having to dig thru old threads to find your prior descriptions?

respectfully,
Oliver

Edit: or simply a link to an old post or some such

hi nikolai.

i'm not sure how to proceed with the question. is your tone mocking, pedantic, whimsical, curious? categories are ideas about ideas. ideas are abstract notions about people, places and things as well as their interactions with each other. they are useless to me.

jon

In my online journal at the HP from July 2011 onwards till recent:

Hi Jon,

Curious. I was not sure what you meant by 'category'. It was just a simple question about what you meant. No 'tone' was superimposed over it.




You seemed to point to my 'eliciting responses and clarifications' as to pertaining to 'categories'. I wondered what that meant in the context of the (possibly pragmatically helpful and diagnostic) phenomenological descriptions I was asking for. I'm not sure how they are 'ideas about ideas'. Perhaps I misread your post.

Nick

Hi Felipe Cavazos,

1) Thanks for enjoying my e-book, and your feeling refreshed to read about AF and actualism in kinder words.

2) Exactly. 'survival reflexes', 'sense of panic' - as you see a snake in a rope in the dark - you just say 'ha! a snake', then you realize it is only a rope, and you forget the whole thing, and go walking briskly for other things. That is exactly like getting cover after a shot as you say. They pass instantly as they come. But there is a 'split-second' reflectivity, affective state. It is a considerable shock indeed, that can tell on your BP and breathing. Only a Robot will miss it, not a conscious human being.

3) 'Gut feeling', 'mind movements', 'uncomfortable sensations', - suppose a deadly cobra was seen by 'your own eyes' entering into your bedroom, but disappeared, went unable to be located for hours, in spite of all herculean efforts. This episode has more duration, than the 'survival reflexes'. And all the while your sense of freedom is in no way affected, if you are actually free, or even if you were a normal human being, with his own sense of ease and forbearing.

Regards,

Justine

it did seem to me that you were trying to fit mr. justines experiences into a category or create a new category for it. i think quite a lot of readers including myself are in the process of doing the same thing. i value your attempt more than my own since i think your experience of a shrinking self (as well as the varoious method to help bring that about) is more advanced than my own. nonetheless, i think a categorization of experience beyond 'yes that is a mode of high happiness and those are useful techniques' and 'no that is not something i wish to emulate' has potential to be a pitfall. there is nothing but this moment, after all.

Thank You Jon T, I am pleased to share more.

Justine

Fascinating. Does the intelligence remain completely unimpeded by the affective fear?

Hi jon,

Not trying to fit, but simply comparing as we do here at the DhO. What category did I seem to be trying to create and what wording did I use to indicate what arose in your mind about it? Just curious for my own benefit.

There has been little comparing done with those from Richard's camp who are claimed to be AF and those of us professing to similar brain changes, for political or whatever reasons. AF and its practices are still an influence here at the DhO in a pure as well as spliced way, and thus comparing with someone from Richard's camp professed to being AF and who is willing to share descriptions of ongoing experiences is important, helpful and probably wont occur often or again. Taking advantage of the opportunity to compare.

Regardless of opinions held about DhO yogis and their heretical practices, IMO, I think it is important to discuss such things (especially phenomenological descriptions of ongoing experiences) to keep practice and results truly open, honest, non-territorial, apolitical non-dogmatic and just plain helpful. Such discussions help orient, not rest laurels, navigate, let go of stuff, understand 'changes', relax and drop the need to 'know', and probably a variety of other helpful things. Whether you personally don't find them helpful in your own practice (for now), they may assist others to move onwards in theirs.

Nick

hi nick,



your own description of your attempt fit exactly what i percieved you to be doing.

"...comparing with someone from Richard's camp professed to being AF and who is willing to share descriptions of ongoing experiences is important, helpful and probably wont occur often or again. Taking advantage of the opportunity to compare."






it was nothing that you said. it was everything that i had already been thinking. your curiosity matched my own and your questions were more apt than what mine would have been. the only difference seems to be your opinion regarding their helpfulness and my opinion regarding their futility. there is nothing wrong with a difference in opinion especially regarding a process that is completely unavoidable i.e. people will want to compare and people will arrange their notes and conclusions accordingly. it is fun, not to be taken seriously and hopefully it is i who is wrong and it is of help to many a people.

jon

Hi Nikolai,

1) For point No.3, my reply is the same as I replied to Felipe Cavazos, today 12-3-2012, 3:02 AM.

2) For Point No.4, Richard long back said: 'By my very nature, I am (each human) corrupt to the core, and no amount of purification process will make me perfect, and the ego 'I' is a lonely, frightened, and cunning entity, and it has to be altruistically self-immolated (a form of psychic suicide) to become actually free'.

3) For point No.5, - Yes. The experience of an object being lovable manifests primarily as a sensation in the chest. Mind may or may not involve in it. Attention calmly spreads to a static stillness (though it is a moving stillness - perpetuus mobilis). With my physical nearness to Richard, I have observed him to be both in the body and beyond the body simultaneously, and nowhere to be in particular too. For him, it is a very casual thing, and he has no much fuss, or bristling frost about it too.

4) Since I'm not trained in Dho Buddhist way of thinking, perhaps you feel some lacunae in my replies. I will try to update myself.

Regards,

Justine

Yes, absolutely!

Hi Justine,





Ok.



What query of mine is this reply a response for? I am not sure what it refers to.



Interesting. And this has been the case for the last two years (since getting AF)? It has been said by Tarin and others that such things didn't occur anymore at what they were professing to be AF, not even sensations in the chest. Interesting indeed that this would be then part of the AF experience as talked of by yourself.




Not a problem. I will ask the same questions again and again if I don''t get an answer and drop the questioning if I deem the query not interesting anymore. Phenomenological descriptions here at the DhO do seem to reign though.

Thank you for answering the questions you did. They were insightful.

But Jon is right in what he says, ultimately this comparing is helpful only if it gets one to return to practice, practice, practice.

Oh, one more question: Justine, do you see any possibilities for further 'shifts'? And if so, are you doing anything in particular to further progress? If so, would you share what you are doing?

Edit: And if you aren't trying to further progress (like end the arising of 'traces'), why not?

Regards,

Nick

Hi Nicholai,

My reply to your last question:

Oh, one more question: Justine, do you see any possibilities for further 'shifts'? And if so, are you doing anything in particular to further progress? If so, would you share what you are doing?

No. There is no possibility for further shifts. What has happened to me is the final paradigm shift. Presently for me, the dust is still settling down. Richard use to say, the aftermath of becoming actually free is inevitably messy. For him it took 33 months to settle down. My work is to get established more in it. Those efforts I have written in my e-book. I wish to tell you each day I am having incremental gain. This path is like that. Richard is in it for the past 19 years. I feel like a 2 yr. old child to a young mother of 19 (Richard). That makes my journey easy. So, there it is, Nicholai.

Regards,

Justine

Hi Justine,

just wondering if you could clarify a point for me.



"[Richard]: ‘A classic example of this [the automatic response known as the reflex action or the startle response] occurred whilst strolling along a country lane one fine morning with the sunlight dancing its magic on the glistening dew-drops suspended from the greenery everywhere; these eyes are delighting in the profusion of colour and texture and form as the panorama unfolds; these ears are revelling in the cadence of tones as their resonance and timbre fills the air; these nostrils are rejoicing in the abundance of aromas and scents drifting fragrantly all about; this skin is savouring the touch, the caress, of the early springtime ambience; this mind, other than the sheer enjoyment and appreciation of being alive as this flesh and blood body, is ambling along in neutral – there is no thought at all and conscious alertness is null and void – when all-of-a-sudden the easy gait has ceased happening.
These eyes instantly shift from admiring the dun-coloured cows in a field nearby and are looking downward to the front and see the green and black snake, coiling up on the road in readiness to act, which had not only occasioned the abrupt halt but, it is discovered, had initiated a rapid step backwards ... *an instinctive response which, had the instinctual passions that are the identity been in situ, could very well have triggered off freeze-fight-flee chemicals*.
There is no perturbation whatsoever (no wide-eyed staring, no increase in heart-beat, no rapid breathing, no adrenaline-tensed muscle tone, no sweaty palms, no blood draining from the face, no dry mouth, no cortisol-induced heightened awareness, and so on) as with the complete absence of the rudimentary animal ‘self’ in the primordial brain the limbic system in general, and the amygdala in particular, have been free to do their job – the oh-so-vital startle response – both efficaciously and cleanly (...)’."

http://actualfreedom.com.au/richard/listafcorrespondence/listaf25g.htm#09Dec04


J:There seems to be a difference of experiencing of a snake in that the "sense of panic" mentioned in the excerpt below seems to be absent from Richard's text. Of particular note was the comment " no increase in heart-beat, no rapid breathing".


"2) Exactly. 'survival reflexes', 'sense of panic' - as you see a snake in a rope in the dark - you just say 'ha! a snake', then you realize it is only a rope, and you forget the whole thing, and go walking briskly for other things. That is exactly like getting cover after a shot as you say. They pass instantly as they come. But there is a 'split-second' reflectivity, affective state. It is a considerable shock indeed, that can tell on your BP and breathing. Only a Robot will miss it, not a conscious human being."


J: Do you think these are significant differences in experiencing? What is most likely the source of that difference?

Regards
John

Hi Justine,

What about the 'golden hue' and 'the meaning of life' stages? These sound like further shifts down the road, no? What of the traces of instinctual passions? Do you consider them 'unsatisfactory' in anyway? Is there preference for there absence over their presence? Perhaps there is more to let go of further down the road, even without a sense of 'being' and it is only conditioning holding certain 'views' in place?

What if you knew how to rid yourself of these 'traces' for good in one full swipe rather than via 'incremental gain'. Would you do something then? What if 19 years to where Richard says he is could be cut down considerably? Would you reconsider your views on your experience then?

It is ok if you don't wish to continue answering the questions. I am not as interested as I was in your phenomenological descriptions. Thanks for sharing.

Regards,

Nick

Hi John,

Very interesting question. You have answered yourself in your question very precisely. Yes. These are significant difference in experiencing. Richard at that moment was at the height of being actually free from instinctual passions, as a pioneer of this historical breakthrough, himself experimenting over that, as well as at the successful realization of being free of i.p. Of course, it was not a mystical state. But he was experiencing that delight and has documented it. It has documentary value. It cannot be the norm for all. Theoretically it is possible. But practically, humanity is yet to actualize these realizations. In principle, if one man can do that all can do. For me, though I am free of instinctual passions, I want to see myself one among the common people, and would like to make Richard's visions as a matter of fact thing. I can't expect immediately all to become like Richard or me. It is impossible, unless each and everyone on this earth decide to do that collectively and immediately. If there is a way, I will be the first one to lead that march. Till this moment, I don't find any sign for that, at least for my seeing.

Please know, even this moment Richard and the AF genitors are living in a 'psychic-vibes-free-zone', say sort of boat houses away from the vulgar gaze of this turbid society. I am happy that they managed to do that. For me, for example, I live in a close-knit family, the normal members ceaselessly tormenting me, who are assailed by constant storm of their instinctual passions, and in a dusty town that manages to survive in a cruel psychic network of business, competition, greed, bribe, cheating, murder, rape, and what not. So, the interactions with them, as it is, I have my best and it may not match the PURITY and the depth that the AF progenitors themselves enjoy or recommend. My ways, methods, prescriptions may vary from that Original stuff.

The bottom line is, in principle, all is possible. Richard's vision is the very shortest and the sharpest to freedom. He is a Trailblazer! Till the Humanity as a whole accepts him, people like me who followed his footsteps, can only strive for the best with the available means, that the present order of Society offers us.

Again I say, Richard is not the ONLY final Messiah to save this world. That will be fanaticism. Richard himself nowhere claimed like that.

Regards,

Justine

Hi Nicholai,



They are not further shifts but actualization becoming strong.



They will disappear in due course.



No, I will patiently wait for their disappearance.



That will be greed.



No way to reconsider views, Nicholai,

Regards,

Justine

Hi Justine,

I'm intrigued by the similarities between my ongoing experience and your own. I recognize much of what you have described in your book and here concerning 'traces' (which i have called 'shadow being'), yet due to past conditioning (a non-af, non-richard influenced one sans direct contact with him like yourself, although certain AF influences where extremely helpful), I consider that there is still more I can do (or not do so to speak) or rather more to drop /let go of via certain effective practices (the traces).

Would that then mean our 'views' (as you still expressed one, just one of having 'no way to reconsider views') differ due to past (and present) conditioning? Are such views influencing/limiting acceptance of possibilities? A subtler locked in thought loop about the majesty of this person or that technique or my way versus their way?

I find myself currently truly interested in being honest (and hoping others also reciprocate) about what is possible for humans. I do not care to tow any party line as such (although i have certain leanings which may change at the drop of a hat) and I currently see a variety of effective ways to the same place you find yourself.

I think any path that includes 'apperception/pre-symbolic awareness' as an important factor to progress will lead one to similar results. Yet actions of body, speech and mind may well be conditioned to view those results in a certain way depending on the 'views' we arrived at via the structured container those set instructions were held within, perhaps provided by those before us who we 'looked up to' or other 'practices' and ways of 'seeing the world' that accompanied the common practice of apperceptive/pre-symbolic awareness.

The involvement of other factors taken up as part of those set instructions such as dogma, morality practices, worship of this person/image/whatever, view of the world, desired outcome like world peace or the end of becoming would result in differing actions. Apperceptive/pre-symbolic awareness though if taken up to 24/7, would result in the same brain changes. Certain views though, would remain intact and arise to mutate and condition the way we behave and sell it to others.

As far as I see it, there is still conditioning at play. Even after such 'brain changes'. And the factors that condition our actions of body, speech and mind are often overlooked, glorified, put up on a pedestal, trivialized, or invisible to or simply ignored by our limited perception.

Thank you for this interesting exchange

Regards,

nick

Disclaimer: My opinion is subject to change at the drop of a hat. No absolutes.
Edited a few times cos I rambled; x 4 cos that is how I roll.

Hi Nicholai,



Methods may vary, but we all intuitively know, that there is no room for any kind of discord.



You are capable of doing much more for Universal Peace and Harmony.



Certainly you are!



Right.



Absolutely Right, Nicholai.

Regards,

Justine

This means that even after being Actually Free, for it to have maximal effect, ones surroundings have to be ideal.

Isn't anyone else in your family interested in being Actually Free?

Ok. So you are also not sure if that is going to go away or not.

Can you check out message #11218 on Yahoo forum and tell if that is true or not?

This is not true. This is someone's lurid imagination.

My daughter is a Dentist abroad. She used to share every now and then over Skype talk, with me, for the past 5 years, about Actual Freedom. Richard in his Mail List D notes down like this:

*************************************************************************************************************************************

January 23 2012

For instance, a couple of months ago a person of Indian birth and upbringing flew into Coolangatta Airport late one night on a prearranged agreement to meet in person so as to talk about her life and to gain clarity in her life-style/ her livelihood situation.

Less than 24 hours after landing she was actually free of blind nature’s instinctual passions/the feeling-being formed thereof.

In other words, the person who landed at the airport (that feeling-being who needed to gain clarity in her life-style/ her livelihood situation) vanished without a trace, in a matter of seconds, the following afternoon.

**************************************************************************************************************************************

Regards,

Justine

Please this too:

http://groups.yahoo.com/group/actualfreedom/message/11614

Question to Justine



Friends,

1) Why people ask me to write? There are more than 4 million words of Richard,
if they want to understand AF. What more can I add?

2) Well. As it is known, I have had some personal experience of AF, that they
want to know my idea.

3) OK. I give my stance.

4) Richard is not the Infinite, or the Infinite is not Richard.

5) As far as I know, Richard is the most guileless and puissant
human on earth as it is today, and as far as I am concerned, though he and me
owe nothing mutually, psychologically or financially or whatever way.

6) But his sense of actual intimacy is misinterpreted as arrogance on his part.

7) I too have experienced that in my acquaintance with him. It is not his fault.
It is the energy of AF.

8) Many of my Indian friends want to know one thing. As it is
India is a sexually repressed country. In the western climate,
there is more sexual freedom. And how I managed that? I am monogamous. I live
with a wife, even there I am a natural celibate for more than 6 years, even
before coming to AF. I never had significant pre-extra-post marital experiences.
But I am actually free. So, sex is not a big thing to become actually free.

9) Another question - how I manage my finances? My wife who had worked for the
Government, takes care of me. I will tell all monthly wage earners not to
aspire the path of AF. It won't successfully work for them. Richard had a
pension. So he had no problem.

10)AF is the closest and sharpest way to freedom. No doubt about that. But that
is not the only way. Richard may try to make us believe that to be so. Because
it is the spirit of a progenitor. It is a welcome thing. But no one needs to be
mesmerized with his words. Be natural friends. Live life as it comes. Look at
the face of your wife, your child, a stranger. There is also the Infinite. Don't
create a melodrama of yoga/religion/AF, to see the Infinite.

11) Infinite will always remain the Infinite. Man, the finite will remain the
finite forever. No Yoga/religion/Actual Freedom, can bring the Infinite into the
finite called Humanity. Don't go crazy. Some rare individuals like Richard, can
peep into some narrow slit, into the domain of the Infinite, and get dazed and
baffled, to offer it to one an all. Don't go crazy friends! It can never EVER
happen to the entire Humanity. REPEAT, it can never ever happen to the entire
Humanity. This world suffers. Let us humbly accept it as a secret of the
Infinite.

12)Forget yoga/religion/AF and all man made things. Live simply like an ant, a
rose, a cat, or a tea cup.

13)Richard has already complained that I am using AF as the watered down version
of Rajneeshism, and Tarin of Buddhism. I don't know of Tarin. But Richard is
wrong about me. I have unanimously agreed with him long back that Rajneesh is
nothing but 'empty rhetoric'.

14) These things are endless.

15) Nothing will help you except nature given capacity in you to see, live and
experience life. Don't be greedy for siddhis of Religions or even of Actual
Freedom.

16) Life is short, make it sweet.

17) For me, AF is a treasure-trove. Its inventor is god to me.

18) But I am not STUCK to it.

I am FREE ALWAYS.

Good Luck, Friends,

JUSTINE

Great advice Justine.

I wonder how other 'actually free/free of malice and sorrow' people here at DhO manage their finances now especially Tarin and Trent.

Justine, what makes you think that 'It won't successfully work for them'?



So do you consider Richard a god?

it's quite clear that Justine has a colloquial tounge. Not only that but he has his own culture from which he gets his colloquialism. what in his tone and word usage made you think otherwise? Here is anothe quote:

Hi Jon,
Thanks for offering your own interpretation of Justine, but I am more interested of hearing the reply to my question from Actual Justine.

Re: Question to Justine



Hi,

It is an irony, that most of the people who opt for AF, is the middle class, and
working class people. Much moneyed, and 'financially free' people, those who
need not work for a living, are not mostly attracted to AF, because their very
'financial freedom', numbs the
aspiration to actual freedom.In the present order of the society,
it is the proletariat, the working class is the majority. Many find consolation
through prayers to their gods. Those who want to find concrete peace and
ACTUALITY, opt for AF. But the rigid work-spot rules that treats a person not as
a person, but as a number, a category, an identity,a specific task force, almost
a bonded slave, just a cog in a machine, makes AF a distant dream. In principle,
AF can work in any situation.But 9 out of 10 have told me they can't do that.
Though they easily understand the principles underlying AF, in the daily
application in their work spot, bends them to follow the law of the place. They
suffer extreme frustration. They want to escape that place. But they have
families and its endless and innumerable obligations. So they have to stay in
that hell. In a way, AF demands more exclusive contemplative endeavor, which for
many may need all their 24 hours. This is the ironical situation I studied from
other people wanting AF. May be times may change. When many take to AF they may
mutually help one another. Anything is possible. Till then, I think it will be a
thing for the privileged few.

Regards,

Justine


In actualfreedom@yahoogroups.com, infiniti_zero_0 <no_reply@...> wrote:
>
>
> >
> > 9) Another question - how I manage my finances? My wife who had worked for
the Government, takes care of me. I will tell all monthly wage earners not to
aspire the path of AF. It won't successfully work for them. Richard had a
pension. So he had no problem.
> >
>
>
> Thank you Justine for saying this. I think this may save a lot of people a lot
of their time.

**********************************************************************************************************

2) As it is said, 'Richard is a god to me', is our Indian colloquialism, a naive respect of us for extra-ordinary persons..

Justine

I believe another AF claimant here in the DhO wrote about being on a sabbatical period (months, I think) in the moment of achieving that.

Justine, why do you think it's the main reason for this? Is it that work and ordinary life interrupt the momentum of contact with actuality?

How did it work for you? Was it a matter of fluctuating years or a concentrated period when you kept so close to actuality that suddenly made you got it?

Or let's speculate... Do you think is more probable to get AF in a single sabbatical year than in 5 years applying the method but being in a job? Specifically, why?

hello,



i manage my personal finances just fine. but perhaps some details about the financial responsibilities of my day job would be more interesting to you… last year i managed my department’s project operations, analysis, quality control, internal client interaction and employee training for contracts which totaled over four million dollars in revenue; this year, it will be well over a quarter more than that for the same projects.

really, i do not understand where Justine’s comments are coming from [1]. i live in a conservative state, work a demanding day job, travel often, have maintained relatively close familial, friendly, and ‘romantic’ associations, and actively work on other projects that are more demanding than my day job. i don’t mention these details to boast at all, but to simply demonstrate that these factors and responsibilities—and the many others not mentioned-- did not prevent 'me' from reaching ‘my’ goal, nor has the attainment of that goal caused any dysfunction whatsoever… quite the opposite, in fact.

trent

[1] i don't just mean the ones i am specifically addressing in this reply, but i probably won't be responding any further in this thread.

*********************************************************************************************

Hi Rich,

Yours is the fire that helps for the final breakthrough for one to
become actually free. You will do it. I wrote for them who are struggling hard, in AF. They are genuine aspirants, but their situations bind them. There is a limit to aim UNCONDITIONAL happiness and harmlessness. Can a soldier sent to Afghanistan aim that? He has limitation - why limitation - almost impossibility. There are various levels of limitations in the society. Some may be lucky, many may be unlucky about that. We should be pliable and use our common sense. We are not for freedom. Freedom is for us. It can be achieved by many means. For instance, the same soldier does not care for UNCONDITIONAL happiness and harmlessness, perhaps that itself becomes freedom for him to act. Otherwise he becomes bound and tied up. I myself worked for the Government for 14 long years in a very lucrative position. My major breakthroughs, including full blown awakening of Kundalini energy happened in those years. The stress around me enhanced my progress.But it was hellish. I wanted to run away from that place in spite of huge salaries I was making. I had a wife and a sibling to support. It was very late my wife joined service and supported me. At that time I was crushed between my anguish for freedom and the pressure of duty everyday. Nor I could put out the flame of aspiration. Any effort to do that only inflamed it million times. Perhaps you have yet suffered what kind of agony it will be. It was a maddening situation. Out of compassion for those who are trapped in this situation, I wrote those words. I don't say none 'gainfully employed' can become actually free. Perhaps 2 in 10 can do it, though AF is potentially able to work 100%. For instance, my own daughter, 32, who is in the NORMAL RUT of life, DID THAT, she became actually free, which is authenticated by Richard himself in his Mail D of Jan.2012. You have mistaken my stance Rich. I speak the general situation of the society. Already I found some have become frustrated with Richard that he has not delivered the goods, and feel he has conned them. They try to label AF as a cult. I have to voice myself that Richard is a genuine person, and AF is not a cult. I did a sort of peace-maker job. Thanks for your apologies. You have the FIRE. You are sure to do it. But let us also be considerate and compassionate to our colleagues.

Regards,

Justine

--- In actualfreedom@yahoogroups.com, "Rich" <richsilver808@...> wrote:
>
> > And I do apologize, Justine, if any sensibilities were offended with my ridiculous, inane remarks ... but really. Happiness and harmlessness isn't possible for someone who happens to be gainfully employed?
>
> I understand you didn't say it wasn't possible. Only that you would tell "all" monthly wage earners not to aspire "the path of AF." As if it wasn't even worth a shot. Even if there was a 1 in a trillion chance, why would you not recommend anyone to aim to rid oneself of the cancer that is malicious and sorrowful feelings -- no matter WHAT CIRCUMSTANCE one finds themselves in?
>
> --- In actualfreedom@yahoogroups.com, "Rich" <richsilver808@> wrote:
> >
> > And I do apologize, Justine, if any sensibilities were offended with my ridiculous, inane remarks ... but really. Happiness and harmlessness isn't possible for someone who happens to be gainfully employed?
> >
> > Justine:"But the rigid work-spot rules that treats a person not as
> > a person, but as a number, a category, an identity,a specific task force, almost
> > a bonded slave, just a cog in a machine, makes AF a distant dream."
> >
> > Only if one allows people, things and events (which are all ultimately outside one's control) to run and dictate their feelings and moods.
> >
> > What use then is trying for an UNCONDITIONAL happiness and harmlessness (not dependent on people, things and events falling into a certain order i.e. the stars aligning just right) if one deems one's ultimate well-being dependent on something so ordinary as being a monthly wage earner.
> >
> > No way.
> >
> > --- In actualfreedom@yahoogroups.com, "Rich" <richsilver808@> wrote:
> > >
> > > In particular, this part:
> > > "I will tell all monthly wage earners not to
> > > aspire the path of AF. It won't successfully work for them."
> > >
> > > Just amazingly inane.
> > >
> > > And this part:
> > > "Richard had a pension. So he had no problem."
> > >
> > > RESPONDENT: Yes looking at the world from the eye of the artist or scientist, of course I am amazed, dazzled by this strange `what is', but I have a lot of taxes to pay to the society, family, etc., which give me no time to sit and watch the rising sun ... . And when I have time I have no energy ... .
> > > RICHARD: Speaking personally, the `I' that was made freedom the number one priority in `his' life. `He' was a married man, with four children, running `his' own business, with a house mortgage to pay off and a car on hire purchase ... working twelve-fourteen hour days, six-seven days a week. In other words: normal. And all the while the enabling of freedom took absolute precedence over all other matters and dominated `his' every moment.
> > > http://actualfreedom.com.au/richard/listbcorrespondence/listb49.htm#children
> > >
> > > --- In actualfreedom@yahoogroups.com, "Rich" <richsilver808@> wrote:
> > > >
> > > > Justine:
> > > > "9) Another question - how I manage my finances? My wife who had worked for the
> > > > Government, takes care of me. I will tell all monthly wage earners not to
> > > > aspire the path of AF. It won't successfully work for them. Richard had a
> > > > pension. So he had no problem.

Hello. Thank you for this. I myself work for the armed forces and am on deployment now under stressful situations. Your initial comment (about not being able to do it with a monthy wage job) did not deter me from the AF path in the slightest (which I am still practicing to the best of my ability dispite what my ecelectic and emotionally confused practice thread says on many occasions), and this new post you made offered me many ways to feel that I relate you.

I agree with how you describe the fire only growing a million times by any attempt to extinguish it or under stressful circumstances (or else I would not maintain a practice blog aimed at actualism on a constant basis). Even under circumstances of sheer confusion and being completely lost I find the only solace in things like sensuousness and dismantling the social identity (without even consciously focusing on AF methods, those methods just happens to be my only peace). Even in longer periods of depression which occasionally hit, I may not act in ways that cultivate AF, nor think in ways, nor feel in ways that cutivate it, but there is still an ever present nagging that is ready to be watered and grow whenever it can.

Like you, I have had many major breadkthrus under the stressful situations out here, mostly in my confidence to preform heavy and complex tasks in rooms of aggressive and emotional people while still maintaining a perfect integrity, centered-ness, equanimity, and other "spiritual" qualities (a silly term to me sometimes, I just naturally cultivate certain parts of myself for my happiness and for self-maintainance).

Another benefit is the ability to work with, listen and understand vastly different perspects and still work closely together (Not only Military perspectives, but I am also heavily involved with the Wiccan Circle out here and soon to be a full-time leader of it. I am expected to be empathetic to their points of views and provide emotional support). By and large it is not difficult to work with people or keep close relationshiip. Communicating ones own personal integrity and one's boundaries (and being unashamed of them and able to sensibly back them up) banishes many other peoples aggression, ill-will and underhanded ways (at least in my presence) and thus it is nowhere near as difficult as it may seem, as long as one is secure in their integrity.

A third benifit is just how my own personal skills are developing and I am meeting a much higher potential than I could have outside the military.

Yet i don't find it a maddening situation to be under such circumstances. I may not be able to advance my felicitous feelings as high as I would outside of these circumstances nor devote every waking moment to the practice, but it is certainly enough for me to be fairly happy and make slight progress. I am comforted by the fact that people still accomplish AF at a far older age than me (I am 21), so I am in no rush. I can simply enjoy what I can as it comes. Like I said, the fire is so strong, and the methods are so applicable that I really have little choice but to practice!





This is a fascinating quote. It certainly is more easy and calming for me to be driven by conditional happiness at times, and I opt to do just that because it seems like the organic human thing to do for where I am at. I don't fight it. I can't take some unrealistic goal like Unconditional Happiness, or pure selflessness and focus on that. I can focus on simply enjoying the senses. Is this something like what you meant by the quote?

Thank you for your time. Your compassion shows.

Oliver

Yes. You have put it rightly.

Thanks for your nice sharing.

Regards,

Justine

Yes. The energy levels of work and ordinary life, and that of the momentum of contact with Actuality, very much vary.
If you unfortunately happen to be under the ruling and irksome pressure of a dull and glum person being your boss, for some, (I don't say for all), it can become hellish, tortuous and unbearable. A work spot means, freedom is mortgaged for a payment. Obedience is the first rule there. The local rules may be felt severe by some people, who are in an advanced state of Purity, egolessness, naivity, in a way released inwardly. Because soceity in general still suffers corruption, injustice, local politics, and so many social evils sprayed everywhere. A refined person may find it all too much to bear. Again, I don't say this is so for all, but for some persons.

Justine

Wouldn't a refined person have an easier time with it? Perhaps you found actuality despite bypassing social deconstruction? The simple rule of cause and effect, which is gradually mastered by the practitioner at the social deconstruction stage, make dealing with malicious and sick people much easier and makes tired routines and bouts of bad luck much easier to bare. Right intention reminds one of right view which leads to right speech (i'm referring to self-talk) maintaining right mindfulness and allows for right stillness. Forgive a buddhist paradigm but it allowed for the quickest example and i give good odds that you are familiar with it.

It is possible, indeed.

Justine

Like this?

http://groups.yahoo.com/group/actualfreedom/message/11622

Justine Beiber is another entrant to the club of AF loonies. He doesn't understand the first thing about actual freedom as advertised by Richard Keith Parker and Vineeto Raspini.

His claim of actual freedom has already been revoked by the coalition of janitors because of the following sentence:

> *Out of compassion* for those who are trapped in this situation, I wrote those words.

Justine Bieber is having some strange ASCs with compassionate feelings and all, and it ain't the same state, not by far, as that of the janitors.

The janitors rule the world. All hail the janitorial. The cult of the dead cow has nothing on us. We have a live one.

************

Justine

Justine Beiber is another entrant to the club of AF loonies.

Hi Peter,

If COMPASSION is a bad thing, still Justine Beiber sees he never
harmed Peter Redcliff in any way. Still he asks FORGIVENESS
from your kind self, if he had hurt you in any way. Sorry friend.
Now you are very dear to me.

Justine

--- In actualfreedom@yahoogroups.com, "Peter Redcliff" <predcliff@...> wrote:
>
> Justine Beiber is another entrant to the club of AF loonies. &nbsp;He doesn't
understand the first thing about actual freedom as advertised by Richard Keith
Parker and Vineeto Raspini. &nbsp;&nbsp;
> His claim of actual freedom has already been revoked by the coalition of
janitors because of the following sentence:
> &gt; *Out of compassion* for those who are trapped in this situation, I wrote
those words.
> Justine Bieber is having some strange ASCs with compassionate feelings and
all, and it ain't the same state, not by far, as that of the janitors.
> The janitors rule the world. &nbsp;All hail the janitorial. &nbsp;The cult of
the dead cow has nothing on us. &nbsp;We have a live one.
>

My experience is that “desire” and “fear” absolutely play a role in my work life. Desire is to maintain a certain lifestyle, to be valued by my peers and to retire at 55. Fear of not meeting these objectives, coupled with a diminished ability to provide for my family and the perceived loss of status in the eyes of others all combine to motivate me to get up, go to work and attempt to distinguish myself on a daily basis. There are moments of purity too and work isn’t a constant battle, but these emotions, their energy, is there and no doubt plays a significant role.

I’m not suggesting this is the way I or anyone should live, but after examination it appears to be the way I do live. Over time as I practiced AF and cultivated felicity, naivety and wonder I experienced profound moments of peace. I also noticed motivation to work waning. I wondered if I should quit and do something else, but what? Work doesn’t really appeal to me except as a means to an end and once I factor out a few bucks to eat and live simply, for me the rest is largely ego based. Sad, but true.
I’m currently waffling. I’m starting to consider waiting until I’m retired or close, and then picking this back up. Let the ego role play out on some level until finances aren’t a central issue. But the AF truth of “Actuality” vs. “Reality” makes sense, now more than ever, and so much of what I see from others and do myself is often recognized as utter madness. What lesson am I teaching my kids? Ughh…

I know I am not alone in this. Justine seems to express what I’ve been starting to conclude after evaluating this these last 18 months. Trent weighs in on the other side which is interesting and causes reconsideration. Am I doing something wrong? Anyone else have thoughts on this? Have you noticed the same thing, a growing lack of motivation to work from a reduction in fear/desire that seems to arise as you practice? Have you figured out a way to channel freed up emotional energy into work or perhaps accepted it was the right thing to alter your work life and release the fear that was helping bind you to it?

Thanks
Ed

Hi ed c,

good to see you around,

i think one must 'work out ones own salvation' in these things. If it is not working, then try something else.

Anything that does work, is working on some core mechanism. finding your particular pathway to get that core mechanism happening for you, is the better part of the entire challenge.

My take on alot of this stuff has changed dramatically since I stopped trying to be consistent or 'do it right'. I still think the AFT is about 4 million words of hyperbole, but when you strip it back, there is a very iconoclastic 'work it out yourself' element that can provide the freedom to mentally/emotionally find your path.

For me, the way forward is turning out to be very much keeping it extremely simple and day to day, and getting stuff second hand from those who can sort through the dross for me.

Break the rules a little, find something that does work. Today i found just saying 'i am my feelings' to anything that I felt opened up something and kept that fear/anger/frustration you talk about at low levels, it is me after all!

My job was actually easier today, which I haven't been able to say...probably ever.

Keep it simple and don't read the AFT, you probably know too much as it is, (like me).

Reconnect with those feelings (instead of just being all in your head with feelings happening to you) - i would be interested to know how that affects your situation. I found it liberating today. And I'll take whatever reprieve i can get

I myself endorse this view as a Golden Rule to a successful freedom.

One man's meat may be another man's poison; one man's freedom may be another man's prison.

Justine

Ahhh, yes. I am prone to “analysis paralysis” whereby so much information is gathered and considered action becomes difficult as things get overly complex, and less clear. Keeping it simple and day to day is good advice. Staying present, aware and accepting is a basic “mode” I work to stay in. I call it “no JAR” or “don’t get stuck in the JAR” of judging, attachment and resistance. It helps me cut through the clutter, most times.

But as I noted in my prior post, I clearly lose site of that. It’s all great as peace increases until that seems to promote undesired consequences too. That’s when you start to realize what really has been and continues to motive your actions. It’s eye opening if nothing less…

Thanks Andrew!

Take care - Ed

Maybe you are unable to understand where Justine's comments are coming from because 'you' have not officially reached the goal of Actualism whereas Justine has.

What exactly do you mean when you say that you reached your goal and the attainment of that goal has not caused any dysfunction?

Officially= sanctioned by Richard, no?

It seems obvious that the application and instructing of 'buddhistic' influenced practices as opposed to a pure AFT set of instructions in order to attain the end of 'being' means one does not receive the title of 'actually free'. If such 'attainment' titles where given to people employing such practices then that would negate the whole 180 degree thing and the AFT 'purity' of instruction and the whole dogma behind it would be compromised. But this is not the AFT. This is the DhO.

Nick

Are you saying that AF Trust members (which includes Richard) are not free of the human condition?

Can you please specify where exactly you read that idea in what I wrote, Aman?

It is obvious that someone who is free of human condition would not engage in something where the titles are given to only those who practice purely AFT set of instructions.

If you say that there is dogma behind AFT purity of instruction, does it mean that AF Trust members (which includes Richard) are not free of human condition?

Richard doesn't consider Trent nor Jill nor anyone else who practiced (and further has gone on to instruct) within a 'buddhist' framework and who has professed to the end of 'being' as an ongoing experience as being 'actually free'. If one operates outside of an AF framework and gets the same results of 'self-immolation', then this very fact undermines much of the dogmatic selling point of '3rd Alternative' and '180 degrees opposite to all other traditions', regardless of whether the AFT set of instructions is effective for 'self-immolation' or not. I think it is. So, no I am not saying what you are insinuating.

There are two camps. Each camp practices a set of instructions that aims to cultivate apperception 24/7. The instructions may differ in words and approaches somewhat depending on the camp but the result is the same: 24/7 apperception. One camp's motivation is born from the idea that their specific approach is 'the one and only' approach. This is dogma. 'The other camp may have similar ideas about their 'approach'. They have their dogma as well. Yet, they are both ultimately doing the same thing, cultivating 24/7 apperception, and this eventually leads both camps to the same results.

However, perhaps those results are seen still through the light of those same motivations and dogma and any further selling of 'our set of instructions' is packaged within that same dogmatic context. 'THis is the one and only way'. Perhaps being free of 'being' doesn't mean being free of the idea that 'our way is the only way'. Perhaps dogma or past conditioning still has a part to play in the ongoing experience even sans 'being'?

Both camps do the same thing. Yet they are getting awfully similar results yet within different contexts. And each of those contexts undermines the dogma of the other camp. This doesn't mean that one set of instructions is better than the other. it just means the dogma that motivated the application of said set of instructions is undermined by the context of practice of 24/7 apperception of the other camp.

Not sure about your absolute statement about obviousness of someone free from the human condition not doing or doing something or other.

Nick

hi nick and aman,

back in the day, i had a notion that anyone free of all affect would be strictly logical in all areas of life. even now, to me, this seems rather fundamental since affect is illogical and intellect is mostly, if not entirely, deductive rationality. however, given the evidence presented so far, it seems that past conditioning continues to play a role, biases are still taken for granted and preference and perception is still in the forefront. this might be considered good news for anyone who is worried about becoming a robot. but it does leave an interesting quandry: without affect, why all the static? I don't know. Perhaps nick, trent, richard, justine, etc will explain the phenoemon fully. since they may choose not to chime in regarding this point, i will offer one hypothesis. In play, we are acting illogical to achieve an outcome which is logically consistent with self-preservation and happiness. Running around in circles and doing cartwheels willy-nilly is in and of itself an ineffecient way to expend energy and if exercise was the sole concern then a strict regiment would be more effecient. But this play is generating joy and excitement within our group thus bonding the group together and us to the group helping maximize our potential for survival. and the child is not aware of this nor the adults. perhaps, richard and others are confident that they are 100% benign and so when they are inclined towards a pov they implicity trust that that pov is beneficial in one way or another. and perhaps they are right.

Dogmatic behavior is what people who are stuck in the human condition do. If people who claim themselves to be free of human condition do the same things, then that claim is obviously false.

Do you have a specific picture in mind about what a freedom should or should not be like? Do you want the thorns with the roses to be hidden? Is that why you see my posts as insinuating?

I'm pretty sure that the definition of 'human condition' they claim to be free of is 'malice and sorrow'. there are wider definitions, including your own. I hadn't thought that 'dogma' was so much a bad thing, as long as one realises that such a thing is just a tool, if the people concerned had come out with malicious and sorrowful words to claim the term 'actual freedom' for there own dogma, then it would be fair to say they are not free according to their own definition.

again, it becomes recursive if at every turn we put more hoops for others to jump through. what they are pointing too is most likely the halfway point to what buddha was on about. full freedom from mental identification. Now they just need to work on the body identification bit.

For me, I'm not going to knock anymore those who have it half right, when I 'have it' not even 1/10th of half right. But that's just me and my dogma for today. good dogma, roll over, good boy, play dead....

How can you be pretty sure that the definition of 'human condition' they claim to be free of is 'malice and sorrow'?

It is just obvious that to be free of 'human condition' is not just being free of 'malice and sorrow'. How could anyone even think of equating a sphere with a dot? Especially those who use precise words. Unless they use it for false propaganda. That will make them dishonest. And that is certainly not being free of human condition.

Do you have a desire that there is some kind of freedom that will take all the ills away?

I'm just 'pretty sure' for my own purposes. I don't read the site anymore as i don't find most of it that useful for practice.

For me, the idea that there is such a thing as a universal 'human condition' is a linguistic one. Human experience is not universal from what I can tell, so I don't imagine everyone is dealing with an identical 'sphere or dot' to start with. It is not as obvious as you say it is, though I agree that there is something dubious about the statement 'free of the human condition'.

it's a funny question you ask, in the way you have worded it. As worded, no I don't.

If you asked 'Do I desire that freedom from 'all the ills' happened for all?', then yes I do. How? no idea.

The idea that there is such a thing as 'an actual freedom from the human condition' is a linguistic one and as worded, it is a dubious claim.

Not everyone is dealing with an identical 'sphere or dot' to start with but there is a huge overlap.

"If you asked 'Do I desire that freedom from 'all the ills' happened for all?', then yes I do. How? no idea."

Do you think that 'Actual Freedom' can't provide freedom from 'all the ills' for all?

Hi Aman,

Andrew


i wasn't being dismissive, I really don't know, there is usefulness in what I've distilled from the system,( haietmoba, happy and harmless, and using a bit of identity poking when it seems that is the reason I'm not happy), but as for the rest of humanity, that will be up to them individually. I don't stand by much of the aft ramblings, very shaky stuff philosophically.

Are you hung up on it or just concerned I am?

I call a spade a spade.