Hello all,

I think this message will be in harmony with the rules of the forum.

I dabbled in meditation some years ago, experienced what felt like strong piti, doubt I ever really attained first jhana.

Have resolved to practice every remaining day this year, for starters, have been good about it for the last couple weeks. Have been averaging 1.5 hours a day, up to 3 hours, as possible. Will have some extra time soon, want to do as much as I can in my practice. 

Am using Culadasa's The Mind Illuminated, working on Stage 3 (dealing with forgetting). And, no surprise, the Ingram book for an overview, as well as having a look at some other materials.

I don't know -- does using TMI to get a solid, if slow, start in concentration seem reasonable?

​​​​​​​Thank you all.

Good to have you posting here. Building a concentration practice is a wonderful endeavor with lifelong benefits for many people so it's nice to hear about someone starting out. 

TMI works well for many, but not all people. My teacher did his training in that school so I have worked with specific instructions from that practice but it was not how I learned concentration, so take my comments with a grain of salt. 

Looking at comments from people in various places, it seems that some people can go all the way with TMI, in just the way the book suggests. Others get stuck at some particular level. But everyone seems to get some benefit from learning the mechanics of the mind from that book.

If it were me, I would try sticking with TMI for at least three months and see how it goes. I would also keep in mind that there are other approaches to concentration out there, although they are all somewhat similar in terms of the basic nuts and bolts of getting used to working with the mind.

​​​​​​​

Thanks for your reply. So far, my impression is that the instructions have been helpful to me. It seems that I've made more progress is limiting forgetting and mind-wandering than I would have expected. 

I wasn't sure a post from a rank beginner would be welcome. Already I feel that it's affected my everyday life positively. I have the summer largely off, and am hoping to make my "home life" a kind of mini-retreat, at least sometimes.

Checking my notes, I see I've been using TMI only since the 19th. 3 months sounds like a good trial period. 

Posts from rank beginners are the most welcome kind! 

Had a hard day today. I know that saying why isn't the purpose of this forum, so I'll leave it at that. 

I will say something about my practice, though. I tried to sit for an hour after the difficult part of the day. Made it 41 minutes. I let restlessness end the sit early. But while I was sitting, I tried to see the three characteristics in everything that came up. There is a lot of emotion here, and I'm not trying to block it out with concentration. But I did let myself go for a little insight into it. 
​​​​​​​That's all.

As I said earlier, I committed to practicing every day for the rest of the calendar year. That means at least one timed sit, but on almost all days has meant more than one timed sit, and for the last while, a fair bit of noting and walking practice. 

At the end of the year, I will take stock. And I'm committed to the 3-month try with TMI, as Martin suggested on this thread. That means through July 19th or so. 

I think I'm on Stage 3, dealing with forgetting. I feel frustrated at times by my progress, but I try to note that, and I do think I'm doing much better than I was before TMI. So here's to practicing.

Hey Tom - nice log so far. As someone who did a ton of TMI back in the day, my loving encouragement would be to consider the stages/'progress' as a way to understand the scenery that's around you, but not use it as a judgment. But, it's very very hard to not feel judged by the seemingly inherent judgment of the stages existing at all.

Concentration ends up being about acceptance and enjoyment, over and over, in each new moment. Try to learn to start loving practice because practice itself is enjoyable to do (even if its tough sometimes) and the journey itself is inherently worth being on, whether or not you reach the destination.

Hi Geoff, thanks for the encouragement. Yes, indeed. Instructions roughly keyed to scenery, not a measure of one's personal glory.&nbsp;<br /><br />I'm not so into attainments or accomplishments in general, but I suppose feeling displeasure with my practice at times does show a bit of that, so your point is well-made and well-taken. I will try to start loving practice.<br /><br />Just did walking practice to the next town and back, with a stop at the public library, where I made the post you responded to. Yes, my mind wandered, but I didn't give up and just talk to myself or daydream. I kept at the practice. I noticed on returning home that I felt great.&nbsp;

That's beautiful Sounds like a great walk. I'm jealous, sitting here all day chained to my desk job.

Told myself I wouldn't post too much. I guess once a month is okay.

I've been practicing (this refers only to sitting practice, which is all I track in my records) every day. Most days between 1.7 and 3 hours over several sits. Trying to sit a full hour at least once a day.

Still using TMI, as discussed. In addition to the TMI-guided sitting practice, I'm trying to keep my breath in my awareness all the time, with imperfect results (but still better than I expected).

There have been great beneficial effects on my state of mind. I'm not happy, I still have all the same problems, but I'm less tortured by my thoughts -- much less tortured. Have much greater ability to see obsessive thoughts and drop them when they arise. 

I am starting to wonder about my progress in TMI. I'm on Stage Four, where I'm supposed to be learning to deal with gross distractions and strong dullness. Dullness does not usually arise for me, thought sometimes it does, and I've been working on dealing with it when it does. The strong distractions are worse. Sometimes bad enough that I feel I'm back at Stage Three, which I guess is normal enough. I try to remember they have the three characteristics and let them go.

Sometimes it seems I have my attention on the breath and my peripheral awareness "on," but there's still a stream of thoughts that don't threaten me with forgetting but really go on for longer than I would like before I "catch" them. I'm not sure whether to classify them as subtle or gross distractions according to the TMI terms. But there they are.

Restlessness: it comes up. I try to rememebr that it, too, has the three characteristics.

Tons of emotional material comes up, no surprise there.

I feel a touch of frustration at times (three characteristics again), wondering if maybe I'm doing the whole thing wrong and I'm going to waste years on Stage Four when I should have been practicing differently so as to actually make progress. Yes, plenty of benefit already, but I'm trying to improve my concentration. Not sure how else to practice, not sure whether even to read the chapter on stage Five in the TMI book. Sometimes it does seem that I have the breath, preipheral awareness, and my introspective metacognition "on," but not for too long a time. It happens but it's not as stable as it seems it should be. But maybe I should be familiar with what the method gives for Stage Five.

Oh. Was reading a book on Tibetan Buddhism and felt, after reading a certain sentence, a change in how I see things. Everyday experience. Not a fully permanent change, but some of it seems to be lasting, at least for the last week+. I wondered if that might be a bit of insight.
​​​​​​​
I'm not sure how to proceed. I guess I'll keep doing what I'm doing and consider reading the Stage Five material tomorrow. Would appreciate any comments or general advice.

Trying not to post too much...but here we are...

Unpleasant day today (identity theft). I think my recent practice kept it from feeling much worse than it did. Still, by the time I finally got to sit, I was very distracted. So it goes...

One of my goals is to make my practice part of my life so that I'm practicing even through disturbance large and small (which I did today, but only barely). 

I think even buddha would be a little thrown off is someone stole his credit card  

Having things be "less bad" is a great result of practice. I've never met anyone who achieved "never bad" through their practice. Life is life and there will probably always be some thing that causes negativity or worry or anxiety, but it is amazing how much better things can be if we're able to move through negativity and worry and anxiety with more flow and less friction. 

The Pali Sutta’s taught a range of techniques: dry insight, absorption with post absorption contemplation and collectedness. Otherwise known as Vipassana, Absorption Jhana and Awareness Jhana. There is a Hard and Soft Jhana, within the Soft Jhana we can have awareness and if that awareness is turned to insight Soft Jhana becomes Awareness Jhana. Once you understand these three kinds of Pali meditations, you can see what the sutta's are talking about within the four path model.  It is quite clear that the TWIM tradition takes Soft Jhana into the territory of Awareness Jhana, and that it is most likely the easiest and quickness process for most people, if it suits their disposition. Here are some solid books that articulate the map and model or paths in the same way that Mastering the Core Teaching of the Buddha articulates the stages of insight in the Vipassana Practice.

1. Mindfulness Bliss and Beyond - Ajahn Brahm: Hard Concentration/Samadhi, Absorption Samadhi (Theravade Thai Forrest Map or Model)
2. The Attention Revolution - Alan B Wallace: Hard Concentration/Samadhi, Absorption Samadhi (Tibetian Map or Model) 
3. Practicing The Jhanas: Traditional Concentration Meditation As Presented By The Venerable Pa Auk Sayadaw - Tina Rasmussen: Hard Concentration/Samadhi, Absorption Samadhi  (Theravade Map)
4. Right Concentration: A Practical Guide to the Jhānas - Leigh Brassington (Might be between Absorption and Collected Samadhi) He emphasis access concentration, but his yard stick for it may be a bit easier.
5. A Guide to Tranquil Wisdom Insight Meditation (T.W.I.M.): Attaining Nibbana from the Earliest Buddhist Teachings with 'Mindfulness' of Lovingkindness - David C Johnson. Delson Armstong (is the best student of Vimilaramsi) - (Soft Collected/Samadhi (Theravade Map or Model (but a new interpretation of the sutta))

I recommend TWIM because it is easier than Hard Jhana and Easier that Vipassana. Interestingly TWIM is an insight technique because you are collected and able to retain peripherall awareness, in all but the 8th Jhana. But post 8th you are in quite mind and then still mind, which is analogous to High Equanimity.

Thanks for the list. I'll see what's available. I admit some of the distinctions you make here are pretty unclear to me. Lots to learn.

I figure getting concentration in order first can't hurt me...

Thought I would check in on this thread. 

I've been practicing every day (seated concentration practice every day, with timed insight practice (noting) as I'm able, and attempts to maintain breath awareness throughout the day during various activities, maintaining that as a base under moment-to-moment awareness while driving, talking, etc.)

I've been sitting for somewhat longer periods, getting in two one-hour sits most days recently, plus some shorter "bonus" sessions. The total sitting time per day is between 2 and 3 hours usually. The next few days I'll have some extra blocks of time, so I'm planning mini-retreats at home: sit an hour, walk and note 20 minutes, sit an hour, etc. We'll see.

My concentration has not stabilized as much as I hoped it might by late July. It seems I'm still working on Stage 4 in TMI. But there's something about the quality of sitting that has changed somewhat -- it seems restlessness troubles me less, my resolutions not to check the time have been more effective, and sometimes towards the end of an hour sit, I do get into a pretty focused state. Taking note of that state does still destabilize it somewhat, but not always. 

I've adapated the TMI vocabulary a bit for my own easy reference while sitting. The three "things" I'm working on I call "periphery," "attention," and "the watcher" (continuous introspective awareness).  I notice very few physical distractions, and even sudden noises don't bother me much. All the subtle distractions that become or threaten to become gross distractions are from my mind.

I'm starting to think I'll never progress past a certain point, but I'm trying not to worry about it, just to practice every day. 

I get the impression that the increasing sitting time and focus have aided the noting practice. There, I experience fewer distractions and have an easier time staying on my (usual, but vairable) sequence of noting: shifting, lifting, moving, placing, repeat. Plus touch, balance (when I start to lose my balance), pressure (when I note the pressure of either foot against the floor), plus other sensory material and thoughts and so on.

I know I have to keep doing it. I expect no attainments -- I figure they're just beyond me. But I have to keep going. That's my report. 

Good report and good practice!

You're free to set whatever goals or expectations you want for yourself, but I'll just mention that both concentration and TMI style practices can often be somewhat dispiriting/disheartening because they have "perfection" type endpoints --- perfect states of concentration, states of overcoming of subtle distraction and dullness, states of pacifying the senses, states of meditative joy...  And many meditators start imagining and making these sorts of refined states as the (nearly impossible) goal.

...and then there is the Burmese style which is just finding momentary concentration through mindfulness of absolutely whatever arises and they move through all the same stages and into equanimity and keep going beyond and they go straight ahead to awakening in this lifetime, even by lay people.

I think our heartfelt goal/intention is very important in meditation practice -- we tend to rise no higher than our intention.

Just for fun, you might want to give some thought to how awakening goes way beyond any particular state you might achieve in concentration or TMI. There is something hard to describe --- but I can tell you are touching on it in your own practice --- which is happiness beyond conditions... or you could say "a hard to describe kind of joy in the midst of any events". 

Anyway, maybe this is a little cheerleading from me --- sorry, I know I look silly in this short dress and with these pom-poms.

Remember to turn every expectation about practice and every doubt about attainments into notes about those emotions/thoughts (expecting, doubting). No matter what arises, it's fuel for mindfulness and awakening. You're putting in the time, don't hold yourself back with too-humble intentions!

My suggestion is to give this advice from Shargrol very serious consideration!

Chris M, I will! 

shargrol, thank you for the thoughtful and encouraging reply. 

Are the states really nearly impossible as a goal? The way some people talk (post) in the "pragmatic dharma" sphere, it sounds like everyone but me has zero problem stabilizing attention and awareness and then just clicking through jhanas and blasting through insight.

I do understand, intellectually, that these states (if attained at all) are tools for awakening, not awakening itself. 

I will try to take your advice to make sure to note my doubts and expectations whenever they arise.

Ha! Apply heavy discounting to these posts. This path is not easy, not an ever-increasing, upward-sloping, fun and exciting adventure. It's hard, it can be chaotic, uneven, and confusing. Level-headed optimism and dedicated, steady and consistent practice is the best approach.

Chris M, that's what I've been aiming for since April: consistency. I figured that would be the foundation of anything sustainable. And I haven't missed a day since whenever I started keeping records (mid-April). So, there's that, at least. 

Sometimes it's a little frightening. I always had okay insight (in a conventional sense). I knew that I often had poor motivations (even while I was acting on them). I still have poor motivations. But sometimes when I'm really aware (relatively aware) of what's going through my head, well, it's a little horrifying. 

(This is not an admission of any kind of violent crime or intent to commit same, just a recognition that I often have selfish motivations and experience very unpleasant thoughts, extremely intense resentment, and so on.)

It really depends on the person. There is A LOT of variation out there.  But in general, what seems to happen is that "practical dharma" people have >enough< attention and >enough< jhanas and >enough< insight -- and that's what is important. 

That's why the sort of philosophical/dogmatic discussions are always so... useless. No matter what experience someone has there is always something to critique. "that's not real attention, that's not real jhana, that's not real insight, that's not the real TMI stage, that's not the real nana," etc. etc. etc.

Meanwhile, there are people (like yourself) that are actually have a consistent, daily, non-heroic, basic meditation practice... they know for themselves that perfection is not needed for progress.

I always liked Daniel's rant about models: Models that are Mostly Unhelpful – MCTB.org

I loved reading Daniel's notes on the different models when I read MCTB2 earlier this year. That, more than any description of jhanas or anything else (which were all totally good for me in a sort of "overview for people who haven't experienced this" way), was the most memorable and practically useful part of the book. 

One thing I've gotten, or gotten "validation" for, at least, from MCTB2, this form, and other "practical" threads elsewhere is the notion that I had to be my own teacher. No doubt there are skilled teachers out there who I would gain great benefit from working with. But since 

1) I don't know how to find them, and
2) I don't have time for retreats or running back and forth to see a teacher at present

I figured that, for now, I need to oversee my own practice and try to make sense of what's out there. 

And I certainly hope​​​​​​​ perfection isn't needed for progress.

Yep - welcome to what I call "being human." Sometimes we have violent thoughts, thoughts of revenge, thoughts that are basically childish demands. Jealousy. Lust. Craven desires. Un-fulfillable dreams. The list is endless. A big part of the path is seeing it all and coming to terms with it, knowing that we all do this, every last one of us.

Yeah, and I knew that...but attending to it more, having it more in awareness, feels different.

Something else to note, I guess!

Knowing something intellectually is different than feeling/grokking something deep in your bones. It's easy to get to the former. The path is based on the latter.

But I'm sure you know that, too 

"And I certainly hope​​​​​​​ perfection isn't needed for progress."

What is needed is clearly comprehending the matter of fact arise-passing phenomena/experiences on the sensate level, 1-10 sensations per second. For this its good to have the ability to be calm, to re-relax, to have faith that this method does benefit many, and to keep a consistent daily practice for at least 6 months for 45-60 minutes a day ) twice a day even better.

Logging your daily meditative experience on DhO can be as good as having a teacher as many here can assist with tips and tricks for passing difficult stages and not getting lost in the nice stage.

Best wishes to you!
​​​​​​​May all beings be free from suffering. May all beings awaken. May all beings be truly happy.

This is the secret sauce of the pragmatic dharma approach. 

If I'm working out because I want to get a ripped physique there are certain exercises I can do, that experts agree, with the right diet, will lead me to my goal but there's no reason to expect those exercises will necessarily gaurantee my ability to run a marathon or deep sea dive or compete in martial arts.

So it is essential in fitness to train for the appropriate goal. The same is true of meditation.  

There is a variety of meditation cultures and there is a variety of buddhist cultures and I think when faced with the weight of these cultures the simple, obvious goals of meditation can get lost in the weeds, can get lost in aesthetics and traditions, in worldviews and rituals.

If you want to wake up then all you need is just enough attention, jhana and insight to wake up. Which in this moment, basically always means, just enough attention, jhana and insight to investigate this moment, this experience, right here. 

If you're looking for a personal trainer you want somebody whose jacked... or more importantly you want somebody who has met their goals, somebody who has achieved something that aligns with your goals and can communicate to you how they did that and what you may find helpful. As we explore the world of dharma our noses get better and better at sniffing out these kinds of people.  

Take it from me, the guy sitting down the back of the class cracking jokes and rolling joints under the table. The path is hard but not impossible and it does not require perfection just... a lot of honesty and a lot of... grit. 

Papa Che Dusko, you really think a daily post on here would be useful? I assumed it would just annoy the other posters. 

The idea of noting 1-10 sensations were second seems very shocking to me still.

​​​​​​​Bahiya Baby, thanks for your post.

How many sensations actually happen per second?

Feel free to log as much as you want. Certainly once a week is good, more is good, less is good. Find your own rhythm. 

I'm sure there are plenty per second. I just can't imagine noting them all.

I'm planning a mini-retreat the next couple days. I'll post about each one if I have anything to say.

Forget about this: The idea of noting 1-10 sensations were second seems very shocking to me still.

I'm asking you specifically. How many sensations do you experience per second? per minute? If you pay attention to sensation are you actually able to count them as you sense them? 

I'm sure as shit not able to do it. I have no idea how many sensations occur per second but second after second sensations occur. There's breathing, there's thinking, there's smelling and seeing and feeling and all kinds of stuff. 

Does a second ever pass in which you do not sense something?

The good part of all this is that you never need to do that. The purpose of noting isn't found in the ability to develop superhuman perceptions. Rather, it's to be able to know deeply the way your perceptions work - how objects are formed, from beginning (arising) to ending (passing). This deep knowing can be accomplished in many ways: you can focus on the flow of objects in your perception, or you can focus steadily on one object and see how it oscillates (arises and passes), or do both and anything in between.

My two cents.

+1

Some people can note 1-10, others can't. But pretty much everyone can notice 1-10 per second.

You have to find what works for you. In general, I found a good standard practice for me was being continuously mindful, noticing as consistently as possible, and making 1 "note" on each outbreath -- which means noting just 8-12 times a minute.  The noting on every outbreath gave me the feedback I needed. (If I wasn't able to note each outbreath, then I was probably lost in thought!) When my "noticing" became very well established, I would drop the noting and just focus on noticing.

Hope this helps!

I find it very helpful to 'track' secondary objects. To simply stay with them until they are gone. 

To keep attention firmly on the grounding object till the point that there is some degree of momentum in mindfulness, concentration, relaxation, energy. Then withdraw the effort needed to keep attention steady. Then permit secondary objects to pull attention to them, then simply track those secondary objects knowing them. Here a subvocalized label initially helps to build discernment of what the object is and continuity of attention. The subvocalized label replaced by a mental 'note', then even that too eventually dropped with the knowing continuing.

In this paradigm number of objects per second or minute is simply immaterial.

 

Okay, so a log for today.

"insight" (?) from driving this morning: drove into a patch of rain which, to me, seemed to start all at once. A sudden spatter of rain across the windshield. For a second I didn't know it was rain. There wasn't a concept attached to it. I just heard the sound and saw the appearance of the windshield.

Today, did 50 minutes walking meditation / noting (focus on shifting, lifting, moving, placing with each footstep, not mechanically but actually experiencing each of those things -- and skipping the note when I don't experience one of them -- other noting as necessary: this or that thought, anger, displeasure, thought about being distracted, and so on). 

Then sat for 60 minutes. 30 minutes of it was TMI concentration practice. Then 30 of continued sitting (just reset timer) and tried what shargrol described above: "noticing as consistently as possible, and making 1 "note" on each outbreath -- which means noting just 8-12 times a minute." The first 30 was as usual for me lately. On the second "shargrol" 30 (shargrol, don't know if you meant this as a walking practice, but I did sitting), I felt that it was very promising (and noted that feeling). Noted many things, mostly hearing, touch, and thoughts, but also fairly strong piti arising in waves for several minutes in the last ten minutes or so. No surprise, I also lost track of what I was doing sometimes.

26 minutes of noting while cooking, washing some dishes, letting food cool, etc. Ate something as mindfully as I could (untimed, after the 26 minutes). 

Observation: when walking, seems sometimes it takes a few steps to "get in gear" -- at first I can note only pressure, pressure, but then shifting, lifting, moving, placing, pressure...

Observation: noticed that I stopped thinking of the floor as a floor, almost forgot what it was. Just saw its appearance, felt pressure on placing foot against it.

​​​​​​​Observation from last night: walking outside, not doing a formal practice, noticed that for a few seconds, I wasn't really there. Just sensory input. 

~10 minutes of pop music, listening as mindfully as possible, maintaining awareness of other sensations as much as possible. I know this isn't the most retreat-like activity, but I figured, why not practice doing something mindfully that I know is going to come up again in the foreseeable future? Tried to note the different parts of the music that came to my attention, as well as the thoughts and memories that came up.

Showered as mindfully as possible (not very, it turns out).

Sat (TMI) for 60 minutes. Interrupted 7 times by false fire alarms (but didn't have to get up -- I guess they were working on the system) in the first 40 minutes or so. Last 20 minutes, increased feelings of calmness and waves of piti in the last 20 minutes or so. Towards the end, feelings of an incipient change in consciousness. Then had to get up (for a scheduled activity).

Had to drive ~25 minutes, as mindfully as possible.

Personal activities. Scattered, but did return to the breath regularly. Fewer obsessive / ruminative thoughts, more easily caught ("noted"). 

Did everything necessary. Then 30 more minutes of sitting.

That makes 140 minutes of concentration, 131 minutes of walking noting and seated noting, 4.5 hours of formal meditation in the log, plus the dish-washing and stuff.

I wonder how I'll sleep tonight and how I'll feel in the morning. Right now I feel tired, not too sleepy, and relatively stable, if not especially "concentrated."

Responses to this thread below:

Bahiya Baby, I don't know how to answer your question. To me it seems like there's a base of awareness plus different tingles or "fully noticed" things. I don't know -- a few a second? Sight, a pinprick of touch somewhere, a sound? I don't think a second of waking life passes when I sense nothing.

Chris M, thank you again. Do you know the book "Seeing that Frees," and do you guess it would be useful at this stage? I have a copy, but haven't done anything with it yet.

shargrol, thank you.

Adi Vader, this sounds worthwhile. I haven't tried it yet, but will give it a shot tomorrow.

Awesome !! This is all you need. Continually being aware of that base is equivalent to noticing x amount of sensations per second. If I were to say today I noticed 1 million sensations per second. I didn't count them, I didn't do any fancy stuff, I just sat and became aware of the tingles and perhaps that day there happened to be a million tingles per second. Honestly how fast we notice things or how much we notice can be very variable. I just want to make it really clear. 


This is what's important and you've already got it.

I guess the last thing I would mention --- and this is what separates psychology from meditation --- is that it can be very tempting with noticing/noting practice to identify with and further solidify "the observer" identity. Developing a good sense of being an observer is a fine and necessary stage, but what makes meditation different from other mind practices is that the sensations of "feeling like an observer" are also noticed/noted.

This doesn't need to be an obsessive thing, but progression through the nana, especially equanimity, involves a curiousity about the base awareness and about how "things appear in awareness". Don't assume you know.

How do we know there is a base awareness? What sensations, emotions, and thoughts suggest a base awareness? Does awareness have a different mind-nature than things in awareness?

How does the mind choose to see a "thing"? What sensations, emotions, and thoughts suggest an act of attention/focus? Does the thing have a different mind-nature than the awareness it is in?

How does the mind switch from awareness to attention? Or switch between objects? What controls this? What observes/knows that the mind is switching? Do you need to "look" in order to "see"? etc. 

These are the sort of big questions that lead to a deeper insight into mind/self. They aren't the kind of questions that get answered verbally, but they can be understood experientially. It's a very mysterious thing, so if it isn't obvious/clear it doesn't mean you are doing something wrong -- you actually might be appreciating the depth of the mystery.

Again, you don't need to be obsessive about it. It's not an intellectual thing... in fact it kind of pull the rug out from under the "I am my intellect" and the sense of being "an observer over here which is observing things over there". 

Of course don't worry about this stuff if it doesn't seem interesting. There are momentary downsides to these kind of insights (like the dukka nanas), so don't rush into things until you are ready.

shargol, thanks again. All I can say right now is that I don't even know how to rush or not to rush into these things. It all sounds impossibly advanced, like what I would get into after two years on a retreat. But I don't know. 

Yeah, I get that. This kind of interaction on DhO and on other online forums can be a bit overwhelming. Information is thrown at you, and you have no way of knowing what's critical, important, good to know, file away for later, or not worth the time. I remember feeling this way when I first joined this place. You just have to use what feels right for you because you can't implement every piece of advice.

Hang in there!

August 1st, 2024

​​​​​​​80-minute sit -- there seemed to be several stages that I waffled back and forth between. One was a noteworthy (and noted) sense of stillness that I don't usually attain. Decreased restlessness (but still some, noted more than once). A kind of peace, sometimes with an under-taste of tension and expectancy (noted). 

37 minutes -- cooking, eating, assorted tasks.

20 minutes -- runnning, low-grade noting, higher-grade noticing.

60 minute sit -- hard to describe, but mostly the usual.

60 minute walk with noting and a very short period of attending to noticing without noting.

~30 minute drive, trying to maintain awareness of what's necessary to pilot the car as well as everything else from the sense doors.

30 minutes -- walking, about 20 of them noting and 10 noticing. Very tired.

Aug. 2nd, 2024


60 minutes -- sitting
30 minutes -- sitting

While doing regular activities, took a moment for a little noting and noticed that my introspective metacognition was much more stable than it usually is even in meditation. Observing complex thoughts while having them. Unusual for me. My cognition felt much "roomier." This didn't last all day, but did come back several times without effort. Tried to note it.

Question: I will have time for mini-retreats at home, undisturbed during the day, for the next four days (Saturday through Tuesday). That means I have time for hours of sitting and walking, probably as much as I can do at this stage. Does anyone on this thread care to suggest anything about how to proceed over these days?

Gently. Having the time to spend hours in sitting and walking meditation without the structure of a formal retreat can be wonderful, and indeed transformative. It helps if it is mostly comfortable. If I had an opening like this, I would not want to get into striving and deal with physical pain. With that as the guiding idea, doing some longer sits, such as two-hour sits, or even a little longer if your knees don't mind, can be very, very nice. 

By the way, I like the spaciousness that you are finding. That is a fruit of practice that is worth cultivating for its own sake. 

Martin, thank you. I have no intention of struggling mightily with pain. I haven't been dealing with pain, only some restlessness. I figure if I sit so long this afternoon I run into pain, I'll walk for a while. Seems to be no disaster there.

​​​​​​​Appreciate the replies as I'm trying to get a bit more into my practice here.

Aug 3rd, 2024 log


2 hours (1 hour 42 minutes sitting, 18 minutes walking). This was supposed to be 2 hours sitting, but after several struggles with restlessness, I finally gave in to it instead of continuing to note it. Then decided to finish the time with walking and noting instead of giving up entirely.

Am noticing (like while typing these notes) greater awareness of some sensory input. Right now there is a constant hum of insects that I am sure I was not aware of before sitting. 

Noticed also while walking that I felt more concentrated than I had been while sitting, although I assume that was thanks to giving in to restlessness.

Washed face.

1 hour sitting. 
10 minutes walking.
Ate something.

1 hour sitting.
20 minutes walking.

Noticed, while drinking water, that the sensations of drinking seemed much more varied and clearly experienced than ever before.

Plenty (for me) of piti during later parts of the sits. 

Noted some worry about practice, hope to sustain any micro-insights that I might ever attain. 

Some reading of "Seeing that Frees." Took special note of this passage: "Connected to this, the second helpful element is a skilful awareness, and holding, of any difficult emotions that are evoked by what is being considered. In order for freedom to be possible, it is vital not to ignore feelings such as anger, hurt, or powerlessness that may be associated with an issue being reflected on. Such emotions may well need caring for, in various ways, as part of the process of liberating the mind. Equally though, it is important not to sink in feelings like these, or to be consistently overwhelmed by them, or pulled down into a state where there is no space or opportunity for creative responses and movements of mind."

30 minutes seated practice, attempt at "Opening to freedom and strength through reflection. Turned mostly into regular concentration practice. Wasn't really sure how to do this kind of practice, though it sounded promising.

Total: 4 hours 12 minutes sitting, 48 minutes walking.

Tired. Mind feels quiet, fairly pliable. Sense of seeing the thoughts rather than being them. Noted: wondering about how I will feel tomorrow.

Wow. So nice! You are really hitting it. 

See That Frees took a while (years) for me to digest. The third time I read it was much better than the first. 

Martin, I can see that Seeing that Frees has plenty of material, probably for the rest of my life. I'm just reading it peacefully (trying to read mindfully, which is hard for me, worse than eating, even) to get a basic sense of it for now. 

Tomorrow, Sunday, I have the morning for my "retreat" and will try to behave mindfully the rest of the day. Monday and Tuesday I should have six hours or so in the middle of each day. 

I will post my log for today later (I'm sure everyone's waiting), but I wanted to ask now: I'm a touch sore from all the sitting yesterday. Does this go away with time, or is it nerve damage?

I'm not a doctor but I would think nerve damage was not at all likely from one intense day of sitting. That said, if you are sore, back off a bit. That is the point of soreness. Evolution went to a lot of trouble to make this feedback mechanism, so the least we can do is take advantage of it. You could add a laying down meditation to the mix. If you find yourself getting sleepy, you can bend your elbows so your arms point up, which adds a little effort to the pose. 

Yeah, I figured I should take some time off from sitting. Today I'm standing instead -- or was, this morning, and will again later, or maybe try the lying down pose you mentioned.

August 4th, 2024


(Woke up around 03:30, decided just to get started.)
60 minutes sitting.
30 minutes walking.
Read "An Understanding of Mindfulness" in Seeing That Frees.
22 minutes mindful (?) running
30 minutes concentration (standing).
Ate something.
30 minutes concentration (standing). 

Didn't feel so good today. In part because of strange sleep and strange dreams, in part maybe because of waking up early, in part because of wondering about soreness (this is why I stood today), in part because wondering whether standing will cause nerve damage, in large part because of emotional stuff. I could sit (stand) / walk more tonight, but I may just try to catch up on sleep and see how tomorrow looks.

August 5th 2024


[30 minutes lying concentration from last night after post]

30 minutes walking (at 2:30 AM).

1 hour concentration, lying

Ate something, had phone call.

1 hour concentration, sitting. Noted: tears flowing down face on and off for much of the hour. Many dreamlike emotional images noted, spun stories about existing people not known to me personally. Some sections of calm and being with the breath without distraction. These notes made, then immediately:

1 hour concentration, lying. Kept falling into a state that was not sleep, perfectly awake, and was not, I think, what TMI calls "strong dullness." It was a kind of not-totally-forgetful state in which I observed various fantasies, spun scenarios, and emotionally heavy content, but without the tears of the immediately preceding sit. I'm sure it wasn't the best concentration, but it seemed to me to indicate a possibility for a state that I might use somehow for insight.

20 minutes walking. A very different feel to the noting here. I felt more calm and collected about the whole thing. I noticed that the order of operations seemed to change a couple times: place, press, shift, lift, move, place or else place, shift, press, lift, move, place. A few distracting spun scenarios, but even before I caught them to note them, they seemed softer and farther away than they ever have before.

60 minutes lying.
7 minutes walking.
Time for sleep.

*necessary errands for much of the afternoon and evening* (Going into them with an intention to do them as mindfully as possible.)

Noticed during errands that at first, for some time, my mind very unusually cool and clear, different from the most concentrated I've ever been (okay, that's not that concentrated, but still). After some time, I noticed a touch of irritability and fidgetiness. Thinking back to the states during lying today, I noticed also that the images were more animated than images usually are in my mind. Not psychedelic animation like in the regular hypnagogic state, but almost like living memory or something.

30 minutes standing concentration

10 minutes walking noting 

*unavoidable activities*

35 minutes walking, noting. Noticed that I seem to have gone backwards in concentration while noting. Is difficult for me to remember to note everything but the components of the walking.

30 minutes of noting, the first half while walking, the second half while standing doing breath awareness and noting everything that came up. Strange experience but hard to say why. 

Generally, today, I noted a fair bit of displeasure with my practice, disbelief that it can lead to anything, and so on.

The feel of practice can shift from day to day. That's totally normal. Practice is always this, how this is, it never ought to be "like that". 

August 7th, 2024


[first day after home "retreat"]

40 minutes of noting while walking [usually I get a timer, here I used a stopwatch until circumstances required me to stop walking back and forth]. Noting best with components of walking, then hearing and sight. Mind-door easily in last place. Many thoughts come and go, noticed but not noted.

Trying to maintain mindfulness while making these notes.

August 8th 2024

30 minutes timed concentration while doing simple things like waiting or riding transit. 

Attempt to maintain breath awareness throughout day. Long blocks of pretty good awareness, some periods of losing awareness.

63 minutes concentration: at home in evening, ran brief errand (~8 minutes) while maintaining breath awareness as my priority, giving as little awareness as possible to anything else. On returning, continued timing and did walking meditation, staying with breath awareness and not noting, trying only to notice everything: breath in the center of awareness, sensory input through the sense doors, that's it. This was both harder and mroe successful than I expected. I noticed that awareness and attention, even when uninterrupted, are grainy -- there's grit to them. Not sure I had seen this before. Had some good periods of continual and strong breath awareness. Some spots of "spacey" attention with breath still lower down in awareness. Was difficult to ntice everything in the sense doors but it did seem that I was doing it at times. Noticing, not noting. A greater feeling that the mind is one of the sense doors. Sometimes, a noticeable lack of identifcation with the thoughts that came up. 

Toward the end of this 63 minutes, noticed fatigue, mind shutting down. Instead of forcing it, chose to stop, type up these notes, and handle the rest of the evening, still keeping breath in awareness as much as I can. 

Nice !

​​​​​​​Even the mountain has a little grain running through it. 

"Long blocks of pretty good awareness, some periods of losing awareness."

What knows the blocks of good awareness and what knows the periods of losing awareness? Is one better than the other? Did the awareness even "go away" or did only the objects change their appearance and feeling tone? 

Good questions, Papa Che!

***

​​​​​​​August 9th 2024

20 minutes standing concentration at ~04:30 (insomnia)

Poor sleep. Woke up four or more times with a start from unpleasant dreams. Tried to maintain breath awareness even while lying awake. In morning, noticed the sound of insects outside, as well as much other sensory input usually ignored. Noticed the sense that what's happening is happening now. Never really felt this way before.

30 minutes lying concentration

4h 56m -- unexpected travel for personal reasons. Tried to maintain breath awareness the whole time. Some falling down, but some nontrivial periods of success where awareness held onto the breath while allowing plenty of other input. 

August 10th, 2024

Spent much of day caring for sick family member. Tried to maintain awareness of breath as much as I could.

30 minutes concentration, lying. 

Hard to guess what to try next to improve concentration. Seem to have lost steam with TMI.

August 11th -- only breath awareness

August 12th -- 60 minutes lying concentration. Trying to maintain breath awareness.
20 minutes walking, noting.

August 9th through 11th I went through a number of fairly unpleasant experiences. I got the sense that my recent "retreat" and my continuing attempts at breath awareness got me a lot more "space" to watch these experiences pass. 

"Hard to guess what to try next to improve concentration. Seem to have lost steam with TMI."

Why don't you NOTE this "hard to guess what to try next to get somewhere" state of mind??? What is TMI???

Instead of trying to hope for some states to follow each other, why not simply note what actually IS arise-passing in your matter-of-fact experience???  

All this stuff is very easy if we are ok with observing what actually is already arising in our experience without us wanting it to be so! 

Kyosaku SLAP! SLAP! SLAP! 
What will you do??! Desire some mind states to "behave" or just notice what ACTUALLY ALREADY IS???

​​​​​​​ Best wishes to you!  

If I post it on the thread, I've noted it.

TMI is the method known as "The Mind Illuminated."

I include concentration notes on this thread, not only noting notes, because this thread was originally about building a concentration practice.

​​​​​​​But, point taken.

Would you be interested in fleshing that comment out a bit? Taking a quick look over your log, the reporting on the concentration sits don't seem to have a lot of detail to them. Perhaps there are things that could help. I hit a plateau in my concentration practice for a long while, but when I started working with a teacher it really took off. So the problem, I found, was not my ability, or even the technique, but just the need for some fine-tuning. 

Also, it seems to me that you are juggling a lot of input aimed at different things. If you decide to continue practicing both concentration and noting (which is often a great idea, if both appeal to you), you might consider logging them under two separate headings, for example as two parts of one post. That way, you would avoid getting noting-oriented comments on your concentration practice and concentration-oriented comments on your noting practice. 

For example:

CONCENTRATION: 
Working from TMI stage x. Sat for 30 minutes with the intention to stay with the breath. Was with the breath 10% of the time for the first ten minutes. After that there were periods where I was with the breath for ten or more breaths but with background thoughts never really going away. Then ....

NOTING:
Working from MCTB Chapter x (or Shargrol's suggestion, etc.). Started immediately after 30 minutes of concentration.  Set the intention to note whatever arises and to return the attention to the rise and fall of the belly each time that I recognize a loss of mindfulness. Noted "contact" each time that the stomach touched my shirt. Noted "image" when an image of my belly arose. ....

Of course, you can completely ignore this. I don't mean these to be instructions. I just wanted to give an example of one way to make it clear which technique you are logging about. 

 

Thanks, Martin. Good idea. Somehow, I thought that would be too much detail and someone would ask me why I was getting hung up on x, y, and z instead of just concentrating or noting. 

I have two days of notes saved, I'll go for a third and try to summarize them like that in one post. Appreciate the suggestion.

Aug 13
45 minutes lying concentration30 minutes sitting concentration
Aug 14th
30 minutes seated, concentration (late at night)25 minutes seated, concentration (after driving all day)
Aug 15th
*death of family member*20 minutes walking noting
Aug 16th 30 minutes concentration
Aug 17th 15 mins concentration15 mins concentration
Aug 18th *
Aug 19th30 minutes lying con20 mins walking, noting

Notes (general notes about recent practice) below

Concentration: 
I've been trying, in general, to continue with the stage 4 material in TMI: attention, peripheral awareness, and continuous introspection. It hasn't been going much in accordance with my intention. My mind wanders off a lot as it used to. I almost feel I don't have the "energy" to try to collect myself to make an effort. I try to find the four stages of the breath (in, out, and stopping at the end of each) but only manage a few breaths before I get lost. Despite this, and despite my much-reduced practice time, I often feel calm and light during these attempts.

Noting:
Generally reduced success in maintaining breath awareness during activities, but it is still helpful when I do manage it. Verbal noting has felt calmer and somehow less verbal of late when I've tried it. For example, today, as I walked and did freestyle noting, I felt calm and less tense than I sometimes do when noting.

I know the site is not for "content," but if anyone has any advice for practicing through grief, I'd be glad to hear it.

It sounds like you are having trouble with dullness. Does it fit with the section on Overcoming Strong Dullness in Stage Four of TMI? Do any of the techniques listed there help? If you are not sure, one idea would be to write them out in point form and then try one or two of them per sit and make notes on how effective they are. You could also log these things, if you wanted. Just being systematic about it like this may prime the mind in a way that can be useful. 

This is a difficult skill set that 99% of the population does not have. If we approach learning to meditate in the same way we would learning to play a woodwind instrument or fly an airplane, it can be more manageable. 

My condolences. Losing a family member can be tough. 

"I've been trying, in general, to continue with the stage 4 material in TMI: attention, peripheral awareness, and continuous introspection. It hasn't been going much in accordance with my intention."

Please stop "scripting" your meditation and just note/notice the matter-of-fact experience so very KISS. Also, arm yourself with letting go of thinking stuff and calm the body with each in and out breathing. 

You will get there! One matter-of-fact moment at a time! One after the other they arise and passed away ... ... ... ... ... 

Martin!  
why is it a bad idea to just note and investigate the unpleasant dullness experience? If this is done with honest noting curiosity it will bring forth Khanika Samadhi and stuff will be more clear (so this dull unpleasant experience can be seen for what it is).

NAME the dragon and it will lose 50% of its strength! Name it! (note it)

Papa, I don't think it is a bad idea to just note and investigate the unpleasant dullness experience. I think that is a great idea!

I also think it is a great idea to work from the instructions in TMI. Both are great. Number seven and number eight on the Eightfold Path are just those two things. Neither is wrong. Both are right!

I think Tom is likely to agree with you too, as he has said that he is interested in doing both noting practice and concentration practice. That is why he is using two headings, "Concentration:" and "Noting." 

You are kind of an exemplar of this because you practiced mostly concentration for a while and then, when that wasn't working for you, you switched to noting. Flexibility. I like it!

Also, for me, and for some of the people I have learned from, it helps to set an intention at the beginning of a sit, and to stay with that intention until the end of the sit. I'm pretty sure that this is your habit too. So if I start with the intention to do noting for x amount of time, that's what I will try to do. Likewise, if I commit to a particular concentration practice, that is what I will do until the bell sounds. This is part of right effort which can be very helpful. I wouldn't encourage Tom to give up on his teacher's instructions just because there is another way. There can be another way and, at the same time, there can be an advantage to working with the original instructions :-) 

Martin, I'll give it a shot. Thank you for the targeted and practicable advice.  I didn't see that what I was describing might be dullness. 

"Take three or four deep breaths, filling the lungs as much as possible, and hold for a moment. Then, exhale as forcefully and completely as possible through tightly pursed lips." -- This is the first of the TMI "antidotes." I'll set an intention to try this tomorrow when it seems necessary.

Papa Che, if I understand you roughly right, khanika samadhi is a kind of momentary concentration, yes? I have been trying to sustain this outside my timed sessions, but haven't been including it in the log. If I had included it in the log for today, it would have looked like this:

Outside of timed sessions, when walking around and doing various tasks, I've done freestyle noting and as much noticing as possible. Yes, certainly I forget at times. I try to maintain at least breath awareness, even if just a touch, even if barely there in the periphery of awareness, but often much more than that. My internal noting and noticing might look something like this: press [step], press, press, press, rise [inhalation], fall [exhalation], sight, sight, press, press, hearing, hearing, press, press, hearing, waking up after forgetting, thought about noting, planning thought, press, press, rise, fall, press, press, press, press, hearing, anger, fantasy image, resentful thought, thought, press, press, hearing, gratifying fantasy, hearing, sight, sight, press, press...lately it has seemed that these notes almost overlap, some of them. 

When walking around outside doing tasks, and especially when doing a timed walk with noting and noticing, I often have my visual field centered on the ground ahead of me (so I don't fall over a root or into a hole). Have noticed that sometimes the irregular appearance of the ground begins just a tiny bit to lift off itself, to swirl in patterns. This is the lightest, barely noticeable effect, but it's there. Nothing psychotic, distressing, or crippling. 

Martin, as you describe, I've been trying to do what I plan to do at least in each session. I have been a little unstable emotionally lately and have had many tasks to attend to. Of course, it's all grist for the noting mill and a focus for the attention, but I really have been distracted from the entire practice at times. But I keep coming back to it, keep coming back to it, keep coming back. 

(Will continue tomorrow with a report.)

"You" can not maintain Khanika Samadhi It is a result of "buying into the noting stream of the matter of fact experience" and it kind of feels like "joy" (wink wink)

August 21st

15 minutes sitting, TMI-experiment (See above)

Resolved to focus on maintaining attention on the breath and not worrying about the other aspects of this stage. In accordance with the advice above, resolved to attend to the four parts of the breath (in, turnaround, out, turnaround) and, if necessary, to do the breathing technique from TMI to dispel dullness. It did not seem that this became necessary. During the short sit, I noticed increased attention to the object (which makes sense, as I wasn't consciously trying to keep the other aspects of TMI Stage 4 in awareness). I noticed distractions sooner and noted them. Overall, although it was quite short, it felt less scattered and distracted than sits have lately. I will try the same resolutions next time.

No trying only mind-ing  

Minor update.

I haven't gotten into the habit of writing more detailed paragraphs on my concentration and noting practices. But I will say this, for what it's worth.

CONCENTRATION
After a period of barely doing any timed concetration (not zero, but little), and only trying to maintain moment-to-moment awareness, with as much noting as I could remember to do, I sat down this morning for concentration, for what turned out to be 14 minutes (interrupted).

Early during that session I noticed that the three elements I had been trying to handle from Stage Four in The Mind Illuminated seemed to come together without much effort for the first time: attention on the object, maintenance of clear peripheral awareness, and awareness of what passes through my mind. 

Sitting again, later in the day, I found the same thing, somewhat less stable, but not collapsing. 

NOTING
Noting seems to have sped up somewhat. When I run, I can note "press, press, press" with the footfalls along with "sight, hearing, hearing, touch, sight..." without losing it nearly as often. Not unbroken for the whole run, but for little stretches longer than before. For what it's worth...