Dharma Overground Diagnostic Flow Chart -- Does it exist? - Discussion
Dharma Overground Diagnostic Flow Chart -- Does it exist?
Anton, geändert vor 4 Jahren at 23.12.19 23:40
Created 4 Jahren ago at 23.12.19 23:36
Dharma Overground Diagnostic Flow Chart -- Does it exist?
Beiträge: 55 Beitrittsdatum: 30.11.19 Neueste Beiträge
Dharma Overground Diagnostic Flow Chart -- Does it exist?
Has work been done already to create a flow chart for diagnosing? Eg.
It could be based on axiomatic type questions like...
"Do you believe you can observe two sensations at the same time?"
Yes --> go here
No --> go here
....
"Do you believe the present moment has inherent existence?"
etc.
...
And so on...
Thoughts?
Has work been done already to create a flow chart for diagnosing? Eg.
It could be based on axiomatic type questions like...
"Do you believe you can observe two sensations at the same time?"
Yes --> go here
No --> go here
....
"Do you believe the present moment has inherent existence?"
etc.
...
And so on...
Thoughts?
Dodge E Knees, geändert vor 4 Jahren at 24.12.19 02:53
Created 4 Jahren ago at 24.12.19 02:53
RE: Dharma Overground Diagnostic Flow Chart -- Does it exist?
Beiträge: 74 Beitrittsdatum: 25.09.11 Neueste Beiträgeshargrol, geändert vor 4 Jahren at 24.12.19 05:43
Created 4 Jahren ago at 24.12.19 05:43
RE: Dharma Overground Diagnostic Flow Chart -- Does it exist?
Beiträge: 2654 Beitrittsdatum: 08.02.16 Neueste Beiträge
Whoever comes up with the flow chart will have essentially created artificial intelligence and finally all of us meditation teachers won't have to work anymore! Looking forward to that!
Chris M, geändert vor 4 Jahren at 24.12.19 08:16
Created 4 Jahren ago at 24.12.19 08:16
RE: Dharma Overground Diagnostic Flow Chart -- Does it exist?
Beiträge: 5404 Beitrittsdatum: 26.01.13 Neueste Beiträge
Is this close enough for ya'll?
https://static1.squarespace.com/static/5037f52d84ae1e87f694cfda/t/506fcc5c84aefb9a79a610b3/1349504092518/Pathways.jpg
https://static1.squarespace.com/static/5037f52d84ae1e87f694cfda/t/506fcc5c84aefb9a79a610b3/1349504092518/Pathways.jpg
Anton, geändert vor 4 Jahren at 24.12.19 12:30
Created 4 Jahren ago at 24.12.19 12:30
RE: Dharma Overground Diagnostic Flow Chart -- Does it exist?
Beiträge: 55 Beitrittsdatum: 30.11.19 Neueste BeiträgeDodge E Knees:
Yeah, agreed... this is the best I've seen. Definitely wishing it was encoded , sophisticated with more logic via flow chart. In fact, I find it quite odd that it isn't, given how many teachers there are and how much time is spent doing other stuff. But perhaps, historically, this is just the first time the environment has been right... with pragmatic forums like this one and the internet to collaborate.
Anton, geändert vor 4 Jahren at 24.12.19 12:35
Created 4 Jahren ago at 24.12.19 12:35
RE: Dharma Overground Diagnostic Flow Chart -- Does it exist?
Beiträge: 55 Beitrittsdatum: 30.11.19 Neueste Beiträgeshargrol:
Whoever comes up with the flow chart will have essentially created artificial intelligence and finally all of us meditation teachers won't have to work anymore! Looking forward to that!
A flow chart is definitely in that direction, but in practice is no replacement for humans. Although the military does have a robot that produces "scent molecules" that increases soldiers trust in it... having these things teach us Dharma is at least a couple decades away. However for now, a nice flow chart would be acceptable.
If you want to know the truth, I was planning to use it for training an AI model, so you caught me
Anton, geändert vor 4 Jahren at 24.12.19 12:36
Created 4 Jahren ago at 24.12.19 12:36
RE: Dharma Overground Diagnostic Flow Chart -- Does it exist?
Beiträge: 55 Beitrittsdatum: 30.11.19 Neueste BeiträgeChris Marti:
Is this close enough for ya'll?
https://static1.squarespace.com/static/5037f52d84ae1e87f694cfda/t/506fcc5c84aefb9a79a610b3/1349504092518/Pathways.jpg
https://static1.squarespace.com/static/5037f52d84ae1e87f694cfda/t/506fcc5c84aefb9a79a610b3/1349504092518/Pathways.jpg
While a very excellent flow chart which this community revolves around, it has different purpose from the one I desire.
Chris M, geändert vor 4 Jahren at 25.12.19 09:01
Created 4 Jahren ago at 25.12.19 09:01
RE: Dharma Overground Diagnostic Flow Chart -- Does it exist?
Beiträge: 5404 Beitrittsdatum: 26.01.13 Neueste Beiträge
Anton, do you really think a flow chart would help? I'm thinking not, because the universe of human capabilities and outcomes when it comes to the practice of the dharma is likely infinite. The flow chart might have more decision trees than there are elementary particles in the universe. It might be accurate but impossible to use in a practical sense.
What do you think?
What do you think?
Bardo, geändert vor 4 Jahren at 25.12.19 09:10
Created 4 Jahren ago at 25.12.19 09:10
RE: Dharma Overground Diagnostic Flow Chart -- Does it exist?
Beiträge: 263 Beitrittsdatum: 14.09.19 Neueste BeiträgeAnton:
Dharma Overground Diagnostic Flow Chart -- Does it exist?
Has work been done already to create a flow chart for diagnosing? Eg.
It could be based on axiomatic type questions like...
"Do you believe you can observe two sensations at the same time?"
Yes --> go here
No --> go here
....
"Do you believe the present moment has inherent existence?"
etc.
...
And so on...
Thoughts?
Has work been done already to create a flow chart for diagnosing? Eg.
It could be based on axiomatic type questions like...
"Do you believe you can observe two sensations at the same time?"
Yes --> go here
No --> go here
....
"Do you believe the present moment has inherent existence?"
etc.
...
And so on...
Thoughts?
Here's the same map but with a walkthrough by Daniel. Click.
Noah D, geändert vor 4 Jahren at 27.12.19 00:02
Created 4 Jahren ago at 26.12.19 23:56
RE: Dharma Overground Diagnostic Flow Chart -- Does it exist? (Antwort)
Beiträge: 1211 Beitrittsdatum: 01.09.16 Neueste Beiträge
this link has the one chris posted + daniel's a&p diagnosis map -
https://www.integrateddaniel.info/mind-maps
this link has Daniel's graphs of how the nana's compare against different characteristics -
https://www.integrateddaniel.info/graphs
here are the insight stages diagnostic table, which is prob what OP is looking for -
https://static1.squarespace.com/static/5037f52d84ae1e87f694cfda/t/5475825de4b0ac156d2453a4/1416987229931/Nanas+and+jhanas+tablep1.pdf
https://static1.squarespace.com/static/5037f52d84ae1e87f694cfda/t/54758268e4b0ac156d2453d5/1416987240860/Nanas+and+jhanas+tablep2.pdf
and lastly his TMI chart - https://static1.squarespace.com/static/5037f52d84ae1e87f694cfda/t/5cea7c8353450a42d3f54e14/1558871241135/TMI+Mind+Map+PGN+copy.png
https://www.integrateddaniel.info/mind-maps
this link has Daniel's graphs of how the nana's compare against different characteristics -
https://www.integrateddaniel.info/graphs
here are the insight stages diagnostic table, which is prob what OP is looking for -
https://static1.squarespace.com/static/5037f52d84ae1e87f694cfda/t/5475825de4b0ac156d2453a4/1416987229931/Nanas+and+jhanas+tablep1.pdf
https://static1.squarespace.com/static/5037f52d84ae1e87f694cfda/t/54758268e4b0ac156d2453d5/1416987240860/Nanas+and+jhanas+tablep2.pdf
and lastly his TMI chart - https://static1.squarespace.com/static/5037f52d84ae1e87f694cfda/t/5cea7c8353450a42d3f54e14/1558871241135/TMI+Mind+Map+PGN+copy.png
Daniel M Ingram, geändert vor 4 Jahren at 27.12.19 14:14
Created 4 Jahren ago at 27.12.19 14:14
RE: Dharma Overground Diagnostic Flow Chart -- Does it exist?
Beiträge: 3277 Beitrittsdatum: 20.04.09 Neueste Beiträge
Yeah, while I can definitely see a need for one, so try this on for size:
Question 1: Able to practic well without being overcome by hindrances, including map obsession?
Yes: Keep paying attention to the sensations of this moment, including thoughts about maps, noticing them as experiences that come and go.
No: Identify hindrance (anger/hatred, doubt, restlessness and worry, sloth and torpor, sensual desire, etc.) and apply standard remedies, and, once accomplished, return to Question 1.
Practice well!
Daniel
Question 1: Able to practic well without being overcome by hindrances, including map obsession?
Yes: Keep paying attention to the sensations of this moment, including thoughts about maps, noticing them as experiences that come and go.
No: Identify hindrance (anger/hatred, doubt, restlessness and worry, sloth and torpor, sensual desire, etc.) and apply standard remedies, and, once accomplished, return to Question 1.
Practice well!
Daniel
Anton, geändert vor 4 Jahren at 28.12.19 00:29
Created 4 Jahren ago at 28.12.19 00:29
RE: Dharma Overground Diagnostic Flow Chart -- Does it exist?
Beiträge: 55 Beitrittsdatum: 30.11.19 Neueste BeiträgeChris Marti:
Anton, do you really think a flow chart would help? I'm thinking not, because the universe of human capabilities and outcomes when it comes to the practice of the dharma is likely infinite. The flow chart might have more decision trees than there are elementary particles in the universe. It might be accurate but impossible to use in a practical sense.
What do you think?
What do you think?
I think we can go first-principle and ask axiomatic questions, and really boil things down to a model that works well. In a way the koan system is quite close but is can be optimized to be more pragmatic and data-influenced.
Anton, geändert vor 4 Jahren at 28.12.19 00:32
Created 4 Jahren ago at 28.12.19 00:32
RE: Dharma Overground Diagnostic Flow Chart -- Does it exist?
Beiträge: 55 Beitrittsdatum: 30.11.19 Neueste BeiträgeNoah D:
this link has the one chris posted + daniel's a&p diagnosis map ...
Thanks Noah, this is a nice collection of resources, and definitely enough for me to mull over for the time.
Anton, geändert vor 4 Jahren at 28.12.19 11:36
Created 4 Jahren ago at 28.12.19 11:36
RE: Dharma Overground Diagnostic Flow Chart -- Does it exist?
Beiträge: 55 Beitrittsdatum: 30.11.19 Neueste BeiträgeDaniel M. Ingram:
Yeah, while I can definitely see a need for one, so try this on for size:
Question 1: Able to practic well without being overcome by hindrances, including map obsession?
Yes: Keep paying attention to the sensations of this moment, including thoughts about maps, noticing them as experiences that come and go.
No: Identify hindrance (anger/hatred, doubt, restlessness and worry, sloth and torpor, sensual desire, etc.) and apply standard remedies, and, once accomplished, return to Question 1.
Practice well!
Daniel
Question 1: Able to practic well without being overcome by hindrances, including map obsession?
Yes: Keep paying attention to the sensations of this moment, including thoughts about maps, noticing them as experiences that come and go.
No: Identify hindrance (anger/hatred, doubt, restlessness and worry, sloth and torpor, sensual desire, etc.) and apply standard remedies, and, once accomplished, return to Question 1.
Practice well!
Daniel
I like it. It's like the "return to breath" loop but dry with hindrance identification and on-the-fly remedies.
I've made a quick flow chart, http://prntscr.com/qgvknz
Do you think discern and focus are ideal bounds? As I see in your master chart, the left side is for concentration stage and right for vipassana. Do you think during practice it is right to boil it down to "the mind discerns" and "the mind focuses" and any remedy or meditation style is on some spectrum between these two.
Noah D, geändert vor 4 Jahren at 28.12.19 16:38
Created 4 Jahren ago at 28.12.19 16:38
RE: Dharma Overground Diagnostic Flow Chart -- Does it exist?
Beiträge: 1211 Beitrittsdatum: 01.09.16 Neueste Beiträge
At an earlier point in my practice, I made this chart related to different antidotes:
Anhänge:
Nick O, geändert vor 4 Jahren at 28.12.19 17:17
Created 4 Jahren ago at 28.12.19 17:17
RE: Dharma Overground Diagnostic Flow Chart -- Does it exist?
Beiträge: 317 Beitrittsdatum: 05.11.17 Neueste BeiträgeNoah D:
At an earlier point in my practice, I made this chart related to different antidotes:
Noah,
Do you mind unpacking your "good enough" rule?
tamaha, geändert vor 4 Jahren at 28.12.19 23:48
Created 4 Jahren ago at 28.12.19 23:48
RE: Dharma Overground Diagnostic Flow Chart -- Does it exist?
Beiträge: 62 Beitrittsdatum: 17.05.17 Neueste Beiträge
Thanks for this Noah!
What do you exactly mean when you say "smile into bottomless pit "?
Also, what according to you are downsides of lust?
What do you exactly mean when you say "smile into bottomless pit "?
Also, what according to you are downsides of lust?