My usual policy on discussing the dharma with close friends is to mention, just once, that I have a daily sitting practice and that it has a big impact on my life. I don't keep mentioning it after that. I don't suggest that other people take up meditation and I don't tell friends about Buddhist philosophy. My reasoning is that doing so would make them feel uncomfortable.  

Recently, I keep having conversations along like this:
Friend: I am so angry/worried about (insignificant social slight/ordinary sequence of events that they have no control over).
Me: That's awful to be stuck worrying about something. It will probably be OK.
Freind: Yes, but I can't stop thinking about it.
Me: I've been there. 

This situation is, of course, common. I spent most of my life worrying about things that never happened. It's very unpleasant. And it never happens to me anymore. And I know the way to stop that from happening. But, of course, the way is long and difficult and is not the kind of thing that you can explain in a half hour over coffee. 

My response is to just be there for them, listen, and maybe give an example of things that I have worried about but were OK. I try to avoid saying things like "There is no point in worrying about it" because, in a sense, they already know that, and I don't want to give the impression that I don't want to hear about it. On the other hand, I don't want to go to the other extreme of saying "Oh, my God. Yes. That's the worst. I can see why you are worried." 

The types of things that I would like to say are: The main problem here is not the social slight or the events you are worried about but your reaction to these things. If you make a habit of noticing what it is like when the thoughts are there and what it is like when the thoughts have gone away, you will see that you can, in fact, stop thinking about it. It happens naturally over and over again. If you get more familiar with how that happens naturally, you can develop skills in deliberately letting go of thoughts that get you wound up. It's actually possible go very far with this and permanently stop the mechanism in the mind that causes you to get wound up.

My guess is that this would come across as so "out there" that it would just shut the friend down or, even worse, make them feel bad about not having this skill ("Oh, my God, other people can choose to stop thinking about shit, and I can't!")

On the other hand, I feel a bit like a guy with a bottle of aspirin who won't share it with his friends who have headaches. 

I'd be interested to see what kinds of policies have worked (or not worked) for other people on the DhO when it comes to talking to friends who suffer, particularly from worry and papancha.
 

A very dear friend of mine suffered from anxiety and dissatisfaction in his job. He suffered horribly. He was made a non equity partner in a global big 4 consulting firm. He really really wanted to be equity partner. That really hurt! He started losing sleep, snapping at his wife and children.

He knows about my practice and sought my advice. Over multiple conversations I taught him how to meditate and I helped him set up a daily 20 minute gratitude practice.

I met him again 3 months later. He told me that the practice helped him a lot within just a few weeks, but he stopped doing it because it took away a mental edge that he felt he needed to succeed.

About two years later he was finally made an equity partner, got 2 panic attacks that lasted for hours, one on a flight from Mumbai to New York. It was a wake up call for him. He has begun practicing again.

It is what it is! It is only dukkha that motivates. Friends can only do so much.

​​​​​​​When the topic comes up I tell friends about my practice as well as accomplishments. Then its up to them.

I'm the opposite. I'm pretty open with my friends (and other curious parties!) about my practice, what it's like, how it has changed my immediate perception and how that has made suffering go exponentially down, as well as a huge mountain of suffering I used to have from CPTSD and BDP. For me, I think it's helped three friends spin up a practice, but most friends remain fairly skeptical, which is fine. I personally don't care if they do it or don't, it's their lives and they should live it the way they want. But I want them to have at least some perspective and information on it, so they can act on it if they would like - if not now, then possibly down the line too. I imagine it like planting seeds. You can plant the seeds, and some of them may grow, some wont, and some may grow when conditions shift.

But usually solid advice for friends who are suffering is "drink more water, sleep well, limit alcohol/nicotine/weed usage, and try to exercise routinely"

Wow, Adi Vader, great story.

I am also self-conscious about discussing the dharma. If I'm friends with someone, and it comes up naturally, I'll usually end up talking about meditation and clearly explain what's possible and how the changes manifest. I also say that it isn't a cakewalk. Since I discuss both the good and the bad, I think my schpiel sounds a little more credible.

I don't suggest people meditate; I just explain what's possible. If I were in their position, I would want to know. I spent many years banging my head against a wall because I didn't know.

I never get the sense that people think it's too "out there." I think people find it intuitive that if you spend a ton of hours working on your mind, it'll change for the better.

For people I'm less close to, I might instead give them my more benign take about how it's okay to rest in procrastination and how people overestimate how much they can control their body. If I think the person is receptive, I'll get weirder with it. 

No one has started a practice yet. A couple people expressed remorse at their inability to do so, but I say that's all part of the rigamarole: it's outside of your control, it's dictated by conditions; if liberation is your fate, you're linearly progressing toward that moment as the minutes pass. I reckon it's valuable to model this sort of acceptance of failure—because it's an attitude most people would find dangerous. 

What I say to a friend who suffer;

Thus have I heard on one occasion the Blessed One was living in the Deer Park at Isipatana (the Resort of Seers) near Varanasi (Benares). Then he addressed the group of five monks (bhikkhus):


"The Noble Truth of Suffering (dukkha), monks, is this: Birth is suffering, aging is suffering, sickness is suffering, death is suffering, association with the unpleasant is suffering, dissociation from the pleasant is suffering, not to receive what one desires is suffering — in brief the five aggregates subject to grasping are suffering."The Noble Truth of the Origin (cause) of Suffering is this: It is this craving (thirst) which produces re-becoming (rebirth) accompanied by passionate greed, and finding fresh delight now here, and now there, namely craving for sense pleasure, craving for existence and craving for non-existence (self-annihilation)."The Noble Truth of the Cessation of Suffering is this: It is the complete cessation of that very craving, giving it up, relinquishing it, liberating oneself from it, and detaching oneself from it."The Noble Truth of the Path Leading to the Cessation of Suffering is this: It is the Noble Eightfold Path, and nothing else, namely: right understanding, right thought, right speech, right action, right livelihood, right effort, right mindfulness and right concentration.

I have been thinking about this for almost two weeks and I still don't know what to say. 

I reckon I have a similar approach to communicating about the dharma as you. I generally just like discussing the dharma with people who are already in, maybe they're still working out the controls but they've stepped inside the vehicle. 

​​​​​​​I feel in some senses I can be a little avoidant. I feel at times I am almost a little wary of recommending the dharma to people. Part of me doesn't think certain people can do it. Which may be wrong think. Also part of me doesn't want to see friends of mine have to deal with the same kind of difficulties that I went through. The dharma was an easy decision for me because I really didn't have any other options. To people like that I feel comfortable wholeheartedly recommending the dharma. Yet I get squeamish about recommending it to others. I am the kind of person that people tell their problems to and I have friends who are open to discussing the dharma and whom I think would have potential but give me the impression that they'll never practice it. I also have friends who like the idea of the dharma the way someone likes the idea of a prescription pill and I think it's those sorts of people I find the most difficult to communicate with. They tend to be addictive and avoidant of their issues and the dharma can be a particularly bitter pill to swallow in practice.  

I say, in general, very little about it but, particularly since third path, I do get a lot of "well this is clearly working for you" 

And that's kind of awkward you know. Because I'm not exactly knocking on doors. I don't really know what to say or how to direct people y'know. i find that very first part of practice in general really difficult to communicate. And people are like "I want the nice thing" and I'm like "well the path to the nice thing is suffering." And they're like "that's fine I love nice things" and I'm like "hmm, I know"

Here we go 

{I am not a father} 

It's like, what I imagine, talking to a teenage child about sex is like

They're all full of hormones and vigor and sex is this alluring taboo and I'm like yeah, that's all well and good but has anyone taught you about betrayal? Or heart break? Or how often times those sorts of things are actually your fault? No, right, of course not and tell me what do you know about Narcissism? And they're just looking at you like a stupid fucking teenager saying "I thought we were talking about sex, why have you spent the last hour telling me about some dusty Greek myth?"

​​​​​​​Because sex is complicated but it's also very beautiful (and that's basically how I feel about meditation.)

So I should have sex? 

No

Why not?

Because I don't want to see you get hurt. 

​​​​​Doesn't it feel good? 

Yes but there's more to it than that. 

I don't understand. 

I know. 

How can I understand?

... Well ... The thing is... You never really will. 

Anyone heard of the serenity prayer?

Well said, Chris. 

I think that is what BB is getting at. It also brings to mind the Ayacana sutta "For a generation delighting in attachment, excited by attachment, enjoying attachment, this/that conditionality and dependent co-arising are hard to see." :-)

For me, being 61, and having quite a few older friends, an additional concern is that some may not have the time (or energy) to go very far with it. Imagine starting to practice late in life, and getting to dark night just when your health starts to fail irreversibly. That would suck. 

In the serenity prayer category of things I can change, there are aspects of emptiness and metta that are pretty easy to digest and don't have to be presented as "Buddhism" and I do work those into conversations but, to date, suggesting that friends take up formal meditation has remained in the category of things that I just accept as not a good idea. 

"Imagine starting to practice late in life, and getting to dark night just when your health starts to fail irreversibly. That would suck. "

F...k!!! I would be more concerned about the 3C's Nana!!! All the bodily stiff pains!!! F..K!!! Stiff neck! Stiff back! Limp ... d ... bizkit! F..k! 

 Just some random thoughts:

There are three things people need when they suffer - eye contact and physical touch and listening. It's wired into us. If you can hold someone's look without being reactive yourself, then the situation calms down. No one wants to talk to someone that is suffering/more reactive than themselves   Obviously physical touch need to be appropriate, sometimes it's just being nearby and not-touching. Sometimes it's just sitting next to someone and having shoulders touching. Sometimes it's a handshake, etc. Touching helps us get out of "our mind".  Listening is amazing because no one can really say what listening is, it's a full body-mind experience a lot like meditation, like meditating the other person.

Usually I just listen and wait for them to tell their truth... and eventually lie to themselves. Somehow I feel like my witnessing their truth and lies makes them both resonate even more strongly which makes it easier for them to accept the truth and drop the lies. Another way to say it, is I can be their conscience in a way, and then that strengthens the inner voice of their conscience.

A lot of time, people try to give me their pain or involve me in their pain... and I let it sit there like a rotting fish. Then they often see that they have been holding on to a rotting fish and feel a little ashamed of carrying it around. The point here is people secretly cherish their suffering because it makes them feel special (even if it is being a special victim). It's sad but many people don't want to heal, they want to spread the pain around. It's important to be aware of this.

Sometimes the lies/bullshit come first and they are testing me to see if I'll lash out or call them on it, then weirdly if they don't get a response then they start admiting their truths, which can be very interesting.  They are basically looking for a safe person to whom they can confess their truths. (And I judge the situation to see if they are willing to explore the nuances of that truth. Sometimes I explore it with them. Sometimes I just hear it and they are happy because they got to say their truth in a safe environment.)

​​​​​​​A lot of the time, I'll say "I don't know" to their worries, subtly pointing out how fears/worries usally aren't "real" they are fears/worries that may not come to pass. The people that just want to worry or be a victim won't like this, but the people that want to heal will be amazed that their worries are uncertain.

Sometimes I'll acknowledge the safe statement they made (their comforting truth) and I'll say the thing they aren't saying (their fears). If I can say their fears and not be afraid, well that's a data point for them to consider. Maybe it's possible to not fear the fear.
 
Sometimes I'll ask questions about where I think they are fixated until it falls apart. A lot of the time suffering is taking a simplistic, fixed position about things to make life simpler... but then that fix position needs to be defended against the counter-evidence which makes life more difficult. But people who truly are interested in relief can sometimes recognize that their attitude/belief is the problem.

Most of the time, my reply involves some verion of "if that happened again, what would you ideally do?"  Hopefully helping them learn from the situation.

When people are complaining about an authority/power dynamic, I often get them to say "when I am [in whatever authority/powerful position], I will do [the good/appropriate thing] in this situation. In other words, life sucks sometimes but we're supposed learn from it, be better than it, and not be assholes that treat others badly because we were treated badly.  Unfortunately, trauma and suffering tends to turn people into people who traumatize and cause suffering -- so it is important to help them get clear that "this isn't right, this is wrong".  Otherwise the mind can "split" and justify violence/revenge in the future and see it as fairness or justice, which it absolutely is not.

"I don't know" really is an important thing to say if you don't know. I mostly don't know.

If possible, I try to get them to talk about what is good, not what they are against. Healing only works by pursuing what is good, not going against what is bad. Going against what is bad eventually tricks you into becoming the thing you are supposidly fighting against.

I do know that deep down, only they are the owner of their own karma, so my expectations about anything changing is very low. Their karma is not really my responsibility, it's theirs and they need to own it. 

The whole scene is however an experience that I'm having, so my responsibility is to fully experience it without greed, aversion, or indifference -- just like meditation experiences. And if greed, aversion, or indifference does arise, then I need to experience that without greed, aversion, or indifference

 

Those are all good thoughts, Shargrol. Thank you!

Mmm that's helpful. 

I am very confused about this topic BUT I think most of that confusion stems from knowing there are people who want to heal and people who don't. 

I guess the way I see it suffering has to sink deep enough so that someone can say "wait hold on, this really sucks, I need to do something about this" 

The person who can honestly admit they no longer want to suffer is a great candidate for meditation. There are also ways in which one might admit that bodily, emotionally, etc even before they're able to say it like that. 

But .. around most people when I am being asked about meditation or told about people's suffering that earnest desire for healing isn't present and I can usually see that plain as day. 

So what I've been trying to say is.... I always give really vague answers about meditation because I usually don't believe the people asking me are "ready". Taking the word ready in the context of this whole thread. 

Also, to be a bit more egoic, there have been times where people are like "hey you know that thing you spent years of your life practicing and studying, can't we just apply that to my life right now and solve all my problems?" 

​​​​​​​And the saddest part is if they were really asking me I'd do it in a heart beat. 

I have friends who want to heal but would not be willing to investigate the possibility of the world being other than it appears.  In fact, the desire for healing (or at least the desire to avoid additional wounding) is usually one of the factors blinding them. They have worked their whole lives at identifying and avoiding bullshit and they would be unwilling to drop those defenses for fear of being hurt. 

People who are not suffering very much would have less difficulty taking up practice. But, then again, less motivation too. 

When my friends suffer I usually read them exerpts from Dogen's teachings on total exertion. There's a small but not null chance that'll just wake them up instantly.

Mu!