Ok. I am starting a practice log . I am 50 and have been meditating and off for about 10 years nothing serious. About 4 years ago I read MCTB2 and found  this forum.   I am deciding now to use MCTB2 AND Mahasi Sayadow's PRACTICAL INSIGHT MEDITATION as my main text. I have averaged about 1 hour sittings every day. I use breath at abdomen as my anchor.  Wow this is hard . I daydream often in my sitting about mundane things and memories etc. No real I sights yet. But sometimes I feel a little calm equanimity  

Can somebody be doing insight meditation and not even be on the map?

Well, does this seem familiar?  

​​​​​​​https://www.mctb.org/mctb2/table-of-contents/part-iv-insight/30-the-progress-of-insight/1-mind-and-body/

Best wishes to your practice! May it bare fruit! 

Note, relax, re-relax, note, note, note, relax, re-relax, note, note, note (matter of fact arisen experience of course) , note tension in body and relax, re-relax some more in the body, note ... etc ... 

I think the answer to this depends on how one sees the map. Many people argue that the map is universal and everyone, regardless of whether or not they meditate, is on the map. Other people argue that the map doesn't explain much outside of a Mahashi-style retreat. The argument can be made that, even on retreat, map labels are just one arbitrary way of understanding what is going on. 

One of the things that I notice is that the map includes 16 things to know. Knowing (deeply understanding) things like Mind and Body or Arising and Passing Away are important enough on the path of insight that they get their own insight stage. But there is no insight stage called, Knowledge of The Map. There is also no mention of a map in the suttas. I have never heard anyone claim that they were liberated from suffering by understanding a map. 

Because people talk about it so much, it's easy to think that it is very important to know where you are on the map. In my experience, it is most important to know what is going on, moment by moment, and know how what is going on goes on. Anything that distracts you from these investigations is probably best set aside. 

Unfortunately  I don't identify with that stage. There is only rarely a perceptual shift. I spend way to much time still stuck in discursive  thought memory etc. There have been a few little moments where things got interesting. I was meditating with a headache  . Trying to be mindfull of the sensation.  All of a sudden  , it didn't feel like "I" had a headache.  It was more like  there was a headache . Or the headache  had the headache.       this message  was supposed  ro answere SHAGROLS QUESTION

Thanks Papa

Sometimes we need time in our day to just sit and think and remember, so no big deal, it's part of being a normal healthy person.

If the discursive thinking and memories feel too claustrophobic and out of control, this is where noting practice is very good. The trick is to come up with "categories of thought" that you can note. This will be different stuff for different people. For example, if someone is worried about their practice they will probably be spending a lot of time thinking about it:

mapping thoughts
comparing thoughts
judging practice thoughts
planning thoughts
wanting to make more progress thoughts
wanting to quit thoughts
"this is wasting time" thoughts

etc.

So when you are sitting there, note the category of thoughts that come up for YOU. When you note the category of thoughts, you aren't embedded in the thought, you are being mindful of thought itself. 

Pretty soon you realize that all of this discursive thinking is just something the mind does --- but that doesn't mean it destroys mindfulness -- not if you can note the category of thought that is occuring in the present moment.

And sure, everyone gets lost in thought at times, that's normal and to be expected. When you snap out of the trance --- and when that happens isn't up to you, it's up to our mindfulness instinct --- when you snap out of it, just note the category of thought that had you in a trance. And guess what: now you are mindful and in the present moment again.

Honestly, it is completely fine that in 20 minutes of sitting you get lost 400 times, just as long as you come back 401 times. It's fine even if you get lost for 19 minutes and come back once. That "coming back to the present moment" is what gets trained in meditation and everyone starts off falling into trances A LOT. No big deal. It's just like someone working on balancing in the physical body: you balance on a narrow beam and fall off a lot, but if you keep getting up on the beam your balance quickly improves because your body wants to learn how to balance and likes to learn how to balance. Falling off is kinda fun too. So have the same attitude about trances and mindfulness, it's a game to play!

Noting really is a great approach. Anything that seems like bad practice actually becomes FUEL for practice. You can't go wrong!

Even if we're really negative:
don't want to practice thought
don't like practicing thought
I am stupid thought
this is dumb thought
i don't know what I'm doing thought
I suck at meditation thought
... after a while, you learn to develop a sense of humor about this --- look at how one part of my brain thinks it's a loser that can't do meditation, meanwhile another part of my brain is successfully doing noting meditation practice!

When you do this kind of noting practice you slowly learn that thoughts are just thoughts, just wisps of words in the mind, and your mindfulness instinct really isn't affected by thoughts ---- unless you choose to believe your thoughts! But you are not your thoughts, you are the awareness of your thoughts. You are awareness, not the contents of your awareness.

And remember that practice slowly develops our mindfulness instinct. Even though it feels like nothing is happening, you are actually making progress... The mindfulness instinct isn't under our direct control, it's sort of like developing a sense of balance in the body --- it just learns over time. We can't "think" or "force" ourself to balance, it's just an instinct we slowly train over time and the body itself learns to balance. Just like the mind itself slowly learns mindfulness itself. We can't "think" or "force" ourself to be mindful -- that kind of attitude just ends in frustration. 

So have fun with it, study your own mind, make up your own notes, and don't worry about thinking -- just worry about noting.

Hope this helps in some way.

Great advise . I always feel inspired by you shagrol. I need to keep a sense of humor. And I am noting the inner "chuckle ' right now...   I am also starting a couple of off the Cushin practices.   Mindfull driving ,on my commute  to and from work. Trying to stay away  from that highway hypnosis.    Also I run a few miles every other day.  I am ditching the headphones and trying to note sensations. Feet hitting the ground or the sound of my own breath even sweat dripping. . I am trying to stay out of that trance you talk about

I am staying consistent on my sits. I do almost 2 hours a day. Time is going by faster than it used to while sitting . It used to be I couldn't wait for it to finish. My mind is still all over the place. It might be 15 minutes in before I do my first note. The label I use is "trance " for long scattered daydreams. This is some difficult stuff so i try to have a sense of humor about it  at the rate I am going, I should reach The AP in about 10 lifetimes. . I hope I am reincarnated  as a smart guy with good concentration  skills

If I could do two hours practice a day I might literally be enlightened. 

Two hours is a lot but comendable. Don't burn yourself out. Slow and steady is good too. Slow and steady teaches us a lot of important things about the journey. Fast and heavy gives us lots of things to deal with. 

​​​​​​​IF I could do slow and steady every day....

My sits are 2 hours. The quality  of the sits are less than great. I daydream often before a catch it and note it. I consider myself a greenhorn. 

Why am I getting creepy feelings,during  meditation and after?. I feel  kind of like I am entering a room I shouldn't be in. However I will just keep going along. Focusing  on breath in the abdomen  and noting when my mind wonders . 

I manages to do 5,  1 hour sits yesterday. Seems like a good accomplishment.  I feel slightly  "other worldly,. But it's a Holliday  weekend. I would like to do 3.5 hours a day today. And scale back  to 2 hours on working days. I'm sticking with the Mahasi method by the way

A little creepiness is ok. In meditation we may come across the full range of human experiences. 

It can be useful to look around your room and verify for yourself that you are safe. If anything is too intense you can stop practicing. If you feel a little off but want to keep practicing with it remember to relax and breath.

Relaxation is very important. Especially if you are sitting for long periods. 

I did an hour and a half sit yesterday. It wasn't that difficult. It was a vipassana  sit . I got some good insights into body sensations even though I was anchored  on my breath . I caught my mind flickering to different places. Still a good deal of day dreaming. But I'm not going to beat myself up. Total of about 4 hours yesterday with other sits. Creepiness has subsided.         

On  another note . I manages to do 2 hours every day last work week . I am trying to bring mindfullness into other activities  running  weight lifting.  On my commute ro and from work . I stopped listening to the radio. Now i focus om the feeling of my hand on the steering wheel. Foot on the gas pedal. I note " looking" when driving and noticeyself  .  I still don't use mindfulness  while engaged  with people at work. I feel slightly  off.  But over all a good week . I still catch myself day dreaming like crazy.  It seems like we live 90 percent of our life in a trance 

My post aren't going through. It keeps taking me to the home page
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Ahh . There we go


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Productive week of meditation time wise . I do 2 hours a day on week days and about 3 on Saturday  and Sunday.  I'm not reading any more dharma books except for mctb and practical insight meditation by Sayadow.  I have been doing to much reading about meditation over the years. And not enough meditation. My meditations aren't great though.   I stink at it . I daydream alot in my sittings and my mind wonders.   I keep re reading the part in Sayadows book.  " IF YOUR SMART ENOUGH TO READ THIS BOOK, YOU CAN DO IT"  I guess I have to have a sense of humor .   

Noticing mind wandering is good practice. You could be daydreaming and not notice. 

​​​​​​​Humor is good practice !!

I agree. That  being said  ,mctb says it's good  to note 2 to 10 sensations a second .  That sounds impossible  to me lol.  I might daydream for a couple minutes then note " trance" and fo back to my meditations.   10 sensations a second sounds like Einstein  stuff. I am just an average guy

I've found the idea pace for most people, including myself, is one verbal note every outbreath --- we breath about 10 to 12 times a minute, so that's a note every 5 to 6 seconds. Of course you want to be "noticing" the entire time, but if you note once per out breath, that gives good feedback on mindfulness but isn't so fast that it causes tension, worry, struggling. 

I even do this as a sigh sometimes when things are difficult, so I sigh-note on each outbreath, which helps with relaxing and being mindful during challenging experiences.

A sighing exhale --- ahhhhh --- is good calming tool for off cushion too!

My practice is getting more consistent.  I meditated every day for the past month. Usually an hour. I have had a few short days though maybe a half hour. I don't beat myself up for it though. I have also had a couple of longer sits of about an hour and 20 minutes.
   I am sticking with Sayadow noting. Anchoring on breath.  I think i got a few glimpses  of "MIND AND BODY NANA" ,however I can't seem to hold it. It is kind of a letting go feeling. Some "mindfull mind "(as Shargrol puts it ) took over . That felt like "not me". But  don't get me wrong , the majority  of my sits have a lot of typical daydreaming. 
. I am also starting some  off the Cushin practice.  Mindfull driving on my commute to work and back . Also when i jog ,i am not using headphones but being mindfull of sensations.  I wont do mindfulness  at work yet. I think the added effort of being mindfull will disrupt some of my job performance . I tried it and people thought i looked odd or distant.   Anyway this is a  very difficult practice. I notice how the mind just gravitates to useless thoughts 

I had a very unique  meditation  tonight . 1 hour and 30 minutes . Longer than usual. I stated typically sitting with the back straight focusing on rising and falling. Intense pain set in quickly  at the upper back. Than bottom of my left foot . Then my left testicle .. tremmer in my right leg.  This was the most unrwlaxing sit ever.  
  I stuck with it and noticed that the different pain centers where helpng me stay mindfull. The pain died down slightly  after about 20 minutes but was still bad and remaind for the sitting. I started to seriously  identify with people who post on their Goenka retreats. It was a very physical sit. I actually praid to "God" or my "mindfull mind" to get me "ego  " to an hour.   At the end i tacked on 15 minutes . Than i tacked on another 15.  I stayed in good posture the whole time.  I really didn't have any insights but I completed  a good sit I guess.

Cheers dude!  

You sound like my ex , ... ex, ex, ex, ex that is! She would try to calm me down by saying to do that very same thing.  

"I think i got a few glimpses  of "MIND AND BODY NANA" ,however I can't seem to hold it."

There is nothing there to hold on to Its utterly impermanent. Its ok. Best friend is the very next arising matter-of-fact phenomenon! NOTE IT!

"I really didn't have any insights but I completed  a good sit I guess."

​​​​​​​ NICE! best wishes to you! 

2 hour sit completed today. I successfully  completed my longest sit. I was quite mindfull also ( at least for my level).. mind / body phenomenon started to pick up around  50 minutes ro an hour and a half.  It was sort of like the mindfullness was falling by its own  weight. ..    I don't think I would ever go longer than this. I imagine it might not be good for the body but every  couple of weeks I would like to do an extended sit.  My usual  is about 1 hour to an hour and 15 minutes.    Time  went by very quickly  it seems . It has been  during a lot of sits lately.  I'm not sure what that means as far as any progress.  Anyway  , I could sit tonight and barely pull off 40 minutes  of fidgeting, who knows.  I am just try to keep a consistent  daily practice. I don't think I have gone a day without  meditating in about 6 weeks.
 

Does anybody think it's possible to get to the AP on 2 hours noting weekdays 4 hours sat and Sunday at home. I would like to in 6 months. But I do.t want (to want ) to much. Is it feasible? 

It's feasible, but it would be best to drop the desperation and just follow the instructions given to you consistently. Consistency is the key.

The main advise I got . Is note ,note  note. I guess . I should add desperate feeling ( note)
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55 minute meditation today before work. I have been meditating  before work lately.  They ate not progressing well. I seem to be loosing mind and body. Drifting from breath and poor noting. Have to just keep going

Practicing about 2x2 hour sits weekdays. 3 hours sat + Sunday. Straight  Mahasi noting (attempting anyway)..      question = does anybody else notice the mind (self ,ego) wants to cling to continuity ? It can be hard to break a daydream. Especially  if I have to remember  to do someing after the sit. I want to hold it for a minute. It can be hard to break and return  to rising falling breath.   
Every once in a while, it feels like something else is overriding that clinging and bringing back to mindfullness. It feels good. But it feels like something totally outside of me. When I realize it I usually  loose it.  I happens every so often in a sitting but it certainly  doesn't make up the majority  of the sitting. Not sure if I should just embrace it or not. 
  Also , as far as the 3 cs go. Should I consousley look for it?. When I do that I intelectualize . Who can't do that. But I do t think that's an insight knoledge. Should I just keep noting rising and falling of the breath and the 3 cs nanas and others appear on there own and just hit me.    Thanks matt

" I am just try to keep a consistent  daily practice. I don't think I have gone a day without  meditating in about 6 weeks."

Nice man! Yes! Thats what you want! Keep up until that comes to about 6 months of daily sitting no matter what the experience! Keep going! No rest for the wicked!!!  

Yes! This being loves continuity! Its ok! But it just ain't so. And its ok if the being is freaking out and trying to grab onto a straw not drown but its ok stuff is in utter flux utterly, to the point of being so fast one can not even track the shit but its OK It OK Its all good as is  

Keep at it and arm yourself with acceptance of any noted experience. Its scary but its all just fluff (as Ingram describes too).

No! Dont look for the 3 Cs! Thats a recipe to going into storytelling and scenario-spinning! NOTE that WANTING to look for 3 Cs (what is it s feeling tone, note it)! And if you feel you are getting pulled into a Power Realm of wanting to see these 3 Cs and whatnot, go BACK to body sensations as they are the safest raft in this crazy samsaric ocean journey. Body sensations, feeling tone, mind images, thinking, mind states, back to the body sensations (are there any body parts tensing and stiff, if so relax them) rinse and repeat! Repetition is the mother of all knowledge! 

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Thanks for clearing that up

I did my 3 hours of meitatuin today. Yesterday  also. Mahasi  noting. I try to stay in the present moment . Mostly  anchored on breath in the a dozen. But also other present sensations.  Air at the nostrils. Blackness behind the eyelids. Hands on my thighs. When I daydream.  I simply note daydream. Than  back to the  abdomen, blackness, hands, sensations of sitting etc. A couple of times it took off o. It's own again.  When that happens . I can't find myself (could it be a glimpse of NO SELF). it gave me a strange feeling of just is.
.  That being said . Out of the 3 hours of total meditation. I spend probably  about 30 seconds to a minute  in that sort of state.   So I am not getting to excited  . Just want to keep practicing.   All the creepiness I used to feel when meditating has subsided for now.   I have this Thursday  through Sunday off work . I am thinking of doing a home retreat of 6 hours each day. Trying not to have to many expectatioms.  I am feeling slightly  peaceful and jovial  after the sitting when I experience that lack of self which is nice.  Most of my time is still bunk n bronco  with my brain though.  But that's ok

GRRRRR . POST WOULDNT WORK. 

I might be ready for my first retreat.  I live in Southern NH. IMS is about 1 hour and 15 minutes away. It seems like the obvious  choice. Its the practice ,I follow and it is relative  close.     Obviously its well known to this website..  Has anybody
​​​​​​​practices there in recent years . I would love feed back.   I'm looking for about a short term . Possibly  just 1 week long to start off with. I could use vacation time this fall.  Thanks guys

I haven't been there recently, but I will say the retreats fill up quickly so definitely check the schedule and plan far out in advance. 

Looks like you have to register to see if there is any availability.
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Sign up for Retreats (site.com)

Well. I still have a daily practice.  Not always 2 hours. That would be my ideal. Lately I have been getting home from work to do my hour sitting. Falling asleep in the sitting at about 20 minutes.  I just lie down and take a nap and stop sitting at that point. I still keep concentratig on rising and falling  while lying down. I usually then crash for about 45 minutes to an hour. Get up shake it off then do my hour sitting . 

I'm still doing a consistent  practice. My noting is still somewhat delayed.  One thing I noticed . I often repeat rising and falling menta  on the in and out breath. I still feel the sensation of the abdomen. Sayadow  says in his book to focus on the sensation.  And not to repeat rising and falling.  The thing is . I can't help it. Its like trying to get a song out of my head. Is this going to ruin my practice?

You could try noting it:

"Rising. Falling. Rising. Words turning into mantra. Chastizing. ...."

You could also try changing the tags to be more specific. For example, if you feel the skin of your belly touch your shirt on the in-breath you could note, "Belly" or "Contact."

There are hundreds of sensations involved in each breath. It takes practice to tease them apart but after a while they can become more familiar and easier to recognize. When you are recognizing more sensations in each breath, the sing-song "rising," falling" thing is less likely to be predominant. 

Please check these short videos by Kenneth Folk! I've done this for 6 months daily which resulted in Stream Entry. 

Broaden the web of noting. Lots of stuff is happening. Good to know the different aspects one can note! Kenneth explains them well! 

https://youtube.com/playlist?list=PLky8N7-NqOd95njMDZ3LD7-i24cqKmtQO&si=dZnqWT9tJ6uC2YTe​​​​​​​

Thanks papa Che
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Still  practicing straight for 6 month or so every day. Sometimes I add the word buddho to my breath to help me stay centered. I mostly do mahasi noting but many  thai monks like to that mantra.   Just curious.  WHY BUDDHO AND NOT BUDDHA as a mantra. HE was Buddha after all.    IS it disrespectful  to use Buddha ?

Buddho is the nominative case in Pali, which would be used for the subject of a sentence, for example. I don't know why they use the nominative case for the mantra. 

I don't know why this happens to me. I was meditating  regularly  a couple hours a day for a few months. The last 2 weeks meditation has been intolerable . I manage to pull off 2 meditations a day 20 minutes or so . Half hour if I am l lucky. Time feels strange. Like I have been sitting for hours.  Not good hours. I was at the point where I was actually looking forward to my hour sit. Now the desire to stop  is there.  I won't stop though. This is goi g to be a part of me for life. I can't shake it

​​​​​​​How so?

Matt, you have arrived at the best part of your practice! This is the most fertile stage! Inform yourself as to how to proceed in this "desire to roll up the mat" stage  

There are tools to get through this and see it for what it is; feeling tone, urges, sensations, ... Noting out loud helped me with this stage, I even shouted at one point just not to give up and see the matter-of-fact arise-passing experience. Daily 45 minutes minimum sit with at least 1-3 notes per second! (in my experience) ... (this stage can last for several days or a few weeks, but keep remembering "acceptance of it all" and note it, label it)

Bets wishes! You can do this  

It feels like I have gone backwards.  I should say my desire to quit is almost  unstoppable.  I have physical pain Set in within 10 minutes. . In a nutshell. I feel like I hate sitting in meditation. . I used to love getting into my asana and quieting my mind. 

I was in that spot back in 2012 after 3 years of daily meditation and eventually, I gave up! Went back to life and started natural beekeeping, sold my apartment, and bought an old cheap country house! Started gardening and exhausted myself with re-building the old house! Also the monetary cost was exhausting. Then in 2019 I contacted Kenneth Folk and told him that I couldn't stand this dukkha any more and asked that he assist me in navigating this stuff. He kindly accepted and after 6 months of daily noting aloud practice I've hit SE.

I guess  the answere is to keep noting and practicing.  Thanks

Hi Matt, please see if this reddit post helps to give a direction to practice.
​​​​​​​https://www.reddit.com/r/Arhatship/s/rcIqEFUFA6

I had some improvement this weekend. I am only shooting for a couple of 30 minute sits a day. I ended up with 2× 2 hour sits Saturday  . I got some nice samatha . Even though I was shooting for mindfullness

Has  anybody tried to do insight practice when they where flat out pissed off after a bad day of work. I'm thinking of looking at this as a challenge. 

Noting practice can be done in any experience, unpleasant, pleasant or neutral.

Oh, most definitely! So many times! :-)

I tried it. I went a good hour. It was interesting  watching  myself  be aware of anger instead of being angry myself. Although I was angry afterwards again.

I don't think . I'm ever going to get this. Mind is all over the place.  I can never stop now though. Whats pulling me. It's something.  Is it a tiny spark of mindfullness  that wants me to break through?
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Matt, your mind will ALWAYS be all over the place. The benefit of practice isn't to change the mind. The benefit of practice is to understand the mind. If you relax into this practice, accepting the mind for what it is and explore from there, you'll be fine.

That sounds like it went well. I never found that meditating while angry made the anger go away in the short term. But watching oneself  be aware of anger is a powerful skill. When I had sat with many different emotions many times, the knot was loosened. Keep it up! 

 

Yeah, the way I think about it is... even a crazy person is just a little sane, and this tiny spark of sanity can grow and grow over time if we maintain a gentle, consistent, daily, non-heroic meditation practice. 

The world of course doesn't change --- and the mind only changes a little --- but with meditation practice the stressful relationship we have with our world and our mind does indeed change. We develop a much more sane way to relate to our mind and the world. Basic human sanity.

It actually can be very helpful to have the experience of "I will never get this" because it can make you realize we kind of have two minds -- the one mind that seems to be "not getting it" and the other mind that NOTICES this. Are you one mind or two?  

In a very funny way "you" don't ever get this... or maybe a way to say it is that "your" intentional effort of trying to fix things doesn't really work because "you" are the crazy person with a little bit of sanity.

One of my favorite quotes from Krishnamurti:

He was asked, "How does a crude man become sensitive?" and answered, "If I say the mind is crude and I try to become sensitive, the very effort is to become sensitive is crudity. Please see this. Don't be intrigued, but watch it. Whereas, if I recognize that I am crude without wanting to change, without trying to become sensitive, if I begin to understand what crudeness is, observe it in my life from day to day -- the greedy way I eat, the roughness with which I treat people, the pride, the arrogance, the coarseness of my habits and thoughts --- then that very observation transforms what is. [...] You do not have to become sensitive. The man who is trying to become something is ugly, insensitive, he is a crude person."

So basically by watching the mind and body in meditation we "feel" what isn't working and we instinctively change our relationship to it. It isn't an intellectual process, it happens by directly experiencing dukka/insanity and allowing it to transform into sukka/sanity.

The good news is our own natural intelligence (the real spark of sanity which is you) does this automatically. The bad news is meditation can suck sometimes because we have to directly experience our imperfect mind. That's why sangha is so important --- it would be very hard to do this kind of practice if we were the only person in the world who was doing it, having to go through this on our own. We would be lost and confused and probably demoralized... but knowing that other people have sat and directly experienced their own imperfect mind and things got better... well, somehow it helps. ​​
 

Awesome advise guys.     AND SHRAGROL.  You have this strange ability to get me into a small insightful meditation  when I read your replies. It fascinates  me lol. I'm so stubborn sometimes I have to get tricked Into this..