Hi DO Community,

​​​​​​​I recently discovered this forum and have been enjoying it a lot - thank you. I wanted to ask if anyone could help determine whether I've hit stream entry based on my description below albeit I understand it's difficult to diagnose online. I attended a Mahasi retreat about 1.5 years ago in Thailand. Before that, I had been meditating on and off for about 7-9 years, mostly practicing Anapanasati, Kriya Yoga, and other spiritual disciplines. Around day 4 of the retreat, after consuming a lot of coffee, I experienced a significant shift, which has remained with me since. I call it the shift into the witness or awareness. It can get quite intense at times, feeling as if I'm walking without a body, with awareness floating by itself. I can feel total emptiness and spaceiousness. For instance, at a wedding a few months ago, while clapping my hands, I looked down and saw my hands moving independently, with 'me' just witnessing the action. But the 'me' was signifcantly detached from the clapping of the hands. It's as if I'm a few steps back physically from how I used to interact with the world. This sensation is also obvious when I type on my phone, laptop, go for walks etc. - I feel like I'm walking around headless, a bit like Richard Lang's "Headless Way."

Before this shift, I couldn't grasp what it might feel like to have no centre, but now I get a real sense of what people describe with no-self. I still experience neurotic content and suffering, but my perception of reality has obviously changed. At times, the witness is very strong, and week by week, I feel like I'm losing more of 'me.' However from time to time I still get wrapped up in emotions, stories and the dream-like state of life. That being said, there's significantly more distance from thoughts. I can see thoughts arising and passing (not all of them) and therefore have less attachment to some mental content. I feel like I've seen through the first three fetters and no-self. However, some describe stream entry as a significant watershed moment, so I'm curious if my experience resembles it. That being said, fetters 4 and 5 and the pushing / pulling on experience still happens. Less so, but still there. Additionally, I have no desire for loads of distractions and can sit contentedly for long periods. Many things that used to fetter me no longer do. I've definitely changed and become a rather simple person, in a liberating way, although I know there's still more progress to be made. My meditation sits go pretty deep and I'm hitting absorbed states of formlessness, although from time to time I still work through periods of agitation. Dependent origination makes total sense to me now and the Buddha's teachings resonate deeply - everything makes sense and I have complete faith in the path. I've been experiencing some dark night phases, but nothing too intense. I am currently at the fear, disgust and deliverance stage and am heading to Asia next week for another big retreat.

Would appreciate any insights or thoughts on my experiences - thank you!

J

I don't know if this is relevant, and as you can see from my thread I've got my own issues to deal with.  So take it or leave it.

But I reckon the stress of prolonged meditation can sometimes be met with an ego defence without us realizing it.  It can create a new partition in the mind, to use a computer analogy.  The 'me' goes into the new partition and leaves the 'old me' at some distance.  Sort of like dissociation.  Have you ever read about DID?  Everyone dissociates at some point in their lives, and it's not a big deal - usually a mild thing.  The new partition makes the meditator feel like he's abiding as the witness when actually that's not the case.  Just a newly created ego watching the old familiar one from a distance.  The newly created ego has no history and therefore little baggage, so feels unburdened by memory, fear & desire.  Possible?

Thanks Jim, although this doesn't ring too true.

A Zen dharma teacher I met said ​​​​​​​ the witness stage is a stage, it is a sign of progress.

It also reminds me of the attached image stage 2.

Appreicate the reply though.
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Well JG, these sorts of things are associated with A&P in general. There can be very powerful changes. 

I would suggest focusing on your next retreat and making it a good one. If you are pre SE it will be a lot of vipassina, if you are post SE it will be a lot of jhana --- but it's always about relaxing into your present experience and gently and consistently noting. 

A good preparation is to think about the notes that are common for you in the nanas -  are you ready to gently and consistently note whatever arises?

Hi Shargol

Thanks for your reply, it does seem like A&P territory...

I arrive next Wednesday at the meditation centre and yes, I plan to give it my all.

When you say "pre SE it will be a lot of vipassina, post SE it will be a lot of jhana" what exactly does that mean? I'm not sure whether you also spelled Vipassina that way on purpose.

Yes, I am ready to consistently note whatever arises.

When you say "think about the notes that are common for you in the nanas" the 4 that come to mind include fear, disgust, disenchantment and desire for liberation - these are common. Do you mean that even when the going gets tough, I should continue to note states like this?

Sounds good. I'm not sure how long your retreat is, but in general "consistent but non-heroic effort" tends to work best on retreat.

Sometimes people get so intent of giving it their all that they forget to note/notice all the sensations, emotions, and thoughts associated with giving-it-all --- as a result, they really don't get a clear insight into their mind/experience because they keep overlooking and forget to note all that effort they are doing!

Gentle but consistent practice is often the best way to go, especially for longer retreats. The mind decides what appears in attention and you just gently note something -- simple and easy.

Sorry, bad speller!   I just meant if you already hit the stream then you'll know because your sits will be very jhanic; if you are pre-SE then it will be standard stuff to note, normal sensations, emotions, and thoughts.

Actually, I meant something sightly different: it can be good to think about how each the nanas tend to show up for you. e.g. What is the way fear shows up? what are the ways you react to it? What are the stories you tell yourself? How do you cope? What are you going to do when all of that happen?If you don't already have a lot of experience with these nanas, then it's obviously a "wait and see" kind of thing, but many people have patterns that tend to repeat during these nanas. For example, I know that if I'm getting weepy and just want to stop and sleep --- oh, that's misery. And I plan ahead, what am I going to do when I'm getting weepy and just want to stop? I'm going to keep sitting and study the misery nana! What does it feel like? what are the sensations? what are the emotions and thoughts? Why do I want to stop? What is really being hurt? My body is fine, I'm safe, there is nothing I need to do --- so why the misery? What am I trying to protect? Probably I'm feeling like a failure. And maybe I feel miserable to take the edge off of feeling like a failure... (I didn't know all of that at first, but that's the sort of thing that insight gives you...)So anyway, pre-retreat I remind myself that if I'm doing a lot of "sad" "weepy" "want to quit" notes...  I'm going to remember to learn why misery makes sense... and also why it isn't a complete answer. I'm going to learn about myself.
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And I do that for all the nanas, if I can. And then when I go to retreat, I'm sorta prepared.That's the sort of thing I was recommending -- kind of mentally rehearsing/preparing for the challenging stuff. 
Hope that helps in some way, but definitely don't bother if it doesn't seem appropriate for you.

For example, I know that if I'm getting weepy and just want to stop and sleep --- oh, that's misery.

Love this - sound advice. I cycle through fear, boredom and tiredness but I will investigate them further vs reacting to the content. Great indication to carry on with noting and learn more about the nanas that show up for me.

Sorry, bad speller!   I just meant if you already hit the stream then you'll know because your sits will be very jhanic; if you are pre-SE then it will be standard stuff to note, normal sensations, emotions, and thoughts.

I have a lot of jhanic stuff currently, but will be able to asses better once I'm in the retreat and in a deeper state of practice.

Sounds good. I'm not sure how long your retreat is, but in general "consistent but non-heroic effort" tends to work best on retreat.

It will be either 3 weeks, 3 months, or somewhere in between - I will see how I get on and what I can manage. Right now I do feel called to really crack on, so to speak, and see what progress I can make. 

Thanks again for your replies, they have been incredibly useful and I'll take note for when I enter retreat next week :-) 

Okay, long retreat(!) --- where are you doing it?

In that case, definitely take it easy. Simply stick to the retreat schedule as best you can and become intimate with the experience of being a human on retreat. There is nothing special about any particular sensation, emotion, or thought -- so just really let yourself enjoy living in the intimate simplicity of the present moment. The insights will come, don't worry. 

In the athletic world, you can strive to train to achieve the last 2% of performance, but training that way risks too much fatigue and injury. It's the same thing on retreat, you can be neurotic about practicing 100% perfectly, but that will just burn you out. Just put in a good 72.2394834% effort in the present moment and things will work out.

Retreats are always challenging. The funny thing about it is that every retreat challenge can be fixed by a deep sigh and regaining perspective. You're just a human walking/sitting on a cushion in a safe place with nothing to do --- so any problem or challenge is something that YOU are bringing to the situation. And then you get curious, why do I "need" this problem right now? What is it giving me? And what is the cost of having this problem instead of being a human in a safe place with nothing to do? Can I note the problem? Can I let the problem be?

There can be a temptation to try and "fix" retreat problems, but that is getting wrapped up in a story, in a role, in a drama. This especially happens a few days in when the mind is becoming powerful. Suddenly you "know" what to do, how to improve your life, how to improve your practice...  That's fine, but just note it. Maybe write a few sentences down about it, but definitely note it. "problem solving thoughts", "life planning thoughts", "perfecting practice thoughts", etc. Problems arise on retreat and if you let them be, they will also pass. Most of the time you really don't need to do anything at all. 

The mind will want to entertain itself with storys and roles and dramas... mostly in a clever way to avoid the simple and intimate experience of being a human on retreat. Because the ego seems to know you don't need to be a special somebody on retreat. You just need to be a lump of red flesh sitting on a cushion in which the breath goes in and out. Nothing special. You could even say "not-self".

So gently train the mind to notice the flowing, not-self nature of sensations, emotions, and thoughts in the present moment. And notice how whenever we complicate things, it becomes dukka. Even the most interesting story and role and dramas... are an exciting kind of suffering. So just sigh, note it, and return to being a human on retreat.

The mind intuitively knows how to make meditation progress, but you have to gently keep pointing it back to the experience of the present, right now, THIS.

When it doubt, go back to basics: mindfulness of breathing, making a gentle note on each exhale. If you have a problem, note it. If you have an grand idea, noteit. If you have a pleasurable sensation, note it. If you have an annoying sensation, note it. If you are feeling emotional, note the emotion. Simple.

And remember it is 100% okay to enjoy the simplicity of being a human on retreat. You don't need to strive or achieve (if you are striving or achieving, note it). You can enjoy the simple pleasures of simpliciy. And you are definitely allowed to enjoy the simple pleasures of jhanas when they arise. 

If you are ever having doubts, note one thing -- perfect, you are in the present moment, whatever it is. Done! It's that simple. Can you find a sensation associated with breathing? Great, you're back in the present moment. Having doubts are fine, note the doubt, note something in the present moment. You're meditating again!   


Hopefully these hard-learned lessons will be helpful to you. Best wishes for your retreat. Definitely make good use of the teachers, it's important to have people for asking questions and getting feedback.

 Wat Chom Tong in Chiang Mia. It's where I sat my last 10 day retreat which was transformational. Difficult, but transformative nonetheless. Your reply has some absolute nuggets of gold - I may even print this thread off and bring it with me - thank you for such wisdom and insight. They offer 21 days and a 10 day advanced course which you can apparently repeat with a few days break in between. Completing 1 month would be marvellous, anything more would really be a bonus.  I can resonante - boredom, tiredness, fear came up last retreat and the mind had a wonderful way of interperating it all instead of just noting it! How simple this practice is yet also challenging. I will definitely try to bring more humaness to the retreat this time round. Just a human on retreat. Nothing special going on here..! Easier said than done but with a printed reminder of this thread, it might just keep me on track...  

​​​​​​​Absolutely, I will take it easy. I am sure my levels of enthusiasm will fluctuate between intense sitting periods and moments where I come off the gas. They have a beautiful lake there which I imagine I'll visit when I need to take my foot off the gas. Noted also re no-self. Yes they have great teachers there and it's clean and comfortable for retreat.  Thanks again for all your insight and well wishes - very much appreciated and super helpful.