Little background about me. I practice breath meditation in the TMI style and have been for a little over 5yrs now. I usually practice around the stage 7-8 level for anyone familiar with that system. Normally I'll do 90 mins a day but sometimes I'll go deeper and do another 90 mins. Twice a year i'll do a personal retreat at home and practice about 8hrs a day for 5 or 6 days. I've had two fairly dramatic drops in the suffering I experience in my day to day. 

Alright, with that out of the way here's the question. For about a year now what started with odd rythmic eye lid blinking/twitching has morphed into an all consuming blackness that I see. I used to think something along the lines of: eye consciousness has ceased. Like all things, it has continued to change. Lately I'll be watching the breath, some thought will start arising and somewhere in the middle of it it's like the 90% of the mind just decided NOPE and it abruptly stops the thought and the lights go out. My eyes usually squeeze shut at the same time. So i'll stare at this all encompasing blackness for maybe a minute and then there's relief and it starts over again with a build up phase. It seems to occur in maybe 10 mins cycles. It's just a guess though. I'll be half way or more through the sit and I'll go through a few of these before the end. I sometimes joke that it's like a conductor of an orchestra where everyone in sync just decides NO to whatever is happening and throws it all away. I wouldn't say there's a Do'er in any of this. It just happens all on its own. I thought for awhile maybe this is part of the vipassana cycles but I have no idea which one. Now, I could certainly ignore all this and just let it be (and most of the time I do ) but it randomly occurs to me that this might be part of some larger cycle and maybe there's some part of this whackiness that I'm supposed to focus on or a lesson to learn before I continue on. For the eye blinking thing I turned it into a three characteristics exercise. I could certainly do the same with this. Curious what others thoughts are on this. 

My best guess. You had a magga nana - knowledge of path, and are now experiencing repeat phala nana - knowledge of fruit.

​​​​​​​Is it the first time this is happening?

Interesting. I read the section in mctb and it certainly seems to line up. I've had a little blip of this some years ago during a home retreat and it stunned me. I kept remarking afterwards to my wife this or that just didn't seem to bother me any more and it was weird. I remember the mind was very quiet for a couple weeks. The inner dialog that has been there forever just stopped. Sometimes I would just stare off into space and marvel at the silence. The inner dialog eventually came back but I had this strong feeling afterwards that it wasn't real or me. It took most of the wind out of its sails and my anxiety I had all my life dropped considerably. I just kept doing my usual sit routine though and kept on. 
About a year later a similar type thing happened on a retreat. 

I don't have the same background training in the dharma as others so these things happen and I don't recognize them.

I really appreciate the help!  

Sounds good.

One of the paths, for me it was the path to Anagami, will be about the deep study of dukkha in all its power and detail.

​​​​​​​If that is coming your way, best to educate yourself.

The blackness itself is probably a formless jhana, probably boundless space but could be others:
28. The Formless Realms – MCTB.org

Because it sounds like you aren't that familiar with formless jhanas, the conservative diagnosis would be you are getting close to Stream Entry, but having "no thought, lights out" near misses (formless jhanas) and/or jumping back to A&P and having an A&P event. 4. The Arising and Passing Away – MCTB.org

It also sounds like the sort of thing that happens when you are close to 2nd path and you wind up getting cessations from the previous path.


Hard to say, just food for thought!

Yep, it's probably a formless jhana. Based on your description above, it's not a cessation. I'm saying this from my own experience. A cessation would not be described as having any conscious entity within it to see or witness the blackness as you describe it.

Yeah I don't think it was a cessation or I wouldn't be able to recall what happened. I've had a few minor cessations and they're awfully weird. Like reality skipped a beat or something. 
Is it possible to jump straight into a formless jhana like that? My understanding from Ajahn Brahm and other books I've read is you kinda gather concentration, still the mind and then step through the jhanas in order as you gradually let go of more and more. I used to do a lightweight 1-4 fairly often but at some point I couldn't seem to access it any longer. 

Yeah my experience with the formless is pretty light. I used to go into a light jhana 1-4 fairly regularly ( almost daily for awhile ) but I didn't know how to go past the 4th.  
Could you elaborate a little on what you mean by "no thought, lights out" near misses? Each time it happens it's usually rather abrupt and jarring. No matter what is happening it just stops dead. I remember a few times roughly around when this blackness thing was happening that it seemed like I was experiencing a lucid dream of sorts. Like a memory clip of something but it seemed more real than a dream. They're hard to remember afterwards except for the few that happened during a retreat that were burned into my memory.  I can still remember them clearly even years later now. 

I have also noticed that I can sort of begin triggering this by thinking "let go of the observer" and something falls away ... and then shortly after that these abrupt blackness experiences will start happening. 

Hi Chris H

I am forming the opinion from your writing that you hold progress / maps very loosely and arent obsessed about it. And that you will continue practicing with regularity independent of whatever kind of answer you get here. I think this is a very healthy attitude to take, quite admirable in fact. I have meditated a lot, and thus ultimately have some pretty strong opinions about meditation. The strength of those opinions do not mean that I wish to attack anybody else's opinon. All I am doing below is sharing experience with you along with some resources that you can use to educate yourself in case you feel interested.

1. A path moment and fruit moment are both chockful of a very different kind of awareness. Ordinary awareness is always shaped or crumpled by sankharas or conditioning. In the process of meditation either through the mechanism of the generation of dispassion - equanimity - letting go - freedom from sankharas, or through the mechanism of purification - of going toe to toe with Dukkha and being forced to let go and gain freedom from sankharas, a very special kind of mind arises. This kind of mind is called the lokuttara Citta - and other-worldly mind, or unsurpassed mind. This mind and awareness associated with this mind isnt shaped, crumpled, conditioned by sankharas. Thus there is nothing projected into this awareness. For an ordinary mind both something and nothing are objects. If you keep a lego brick in front of you and look at it, you will see the presence of a lego brick. If you remove that lego brick then you will see the absence of a lego brick. In both cases 'presence' as well as 'absence' are objects. The act of getting absorbed in absence is the act of accessing the Base of no-thingness. But in the case of the lokuttara citta, the very mechanism of the creation of objects is now gone. So within the lokuttara citta there is no presence and there is no absence. This experience is truly extraordinary. This momentary absorbtion into that which is neither present nor absent is termed as the lokuttara citta having taken nibbana as its object. That thing which is taken as an object is called nibbana. In this state where all sankharas are offline - there is no question of a sense of self being created in that momentary absorbtion. But the function of memory is intact and people who have attained to this usually report the experience of this kind of awareness. This otherworldy awareness, this lokuttara Citta taking nibbana as its object - it burns an imprint into memory. One never forgets any four of the path moments. The repeat frutitions do not involve such a strong memory creation, but sometimes repeat fruitions also leave an imprint on memory

2. If you have concentratio chops, then you can potentially learn to teach the mind how to do the dispassion- equanimity - letting go - freedom from sankharas route towards reaching nibbana. This is called nirodha sampatti. The traditional view is that the attainment of nirodha sampatti is a guarantee of the attainment of Arhat (or atleast Anagami) attainment. Some people sometimes say that it is the other way around, but that's not what traditional texts say. You dont need to be an Anagami or Arhat to attain to nirodha sampatti. You may attain to nirodha sampatti and thus attain Anagami or Arhat. There are two posts I had written on the topic. Check them out on reddit

https://www.reddit.com/r/streamentry/comments/patiw3/samatha_vipassana_the_midl_practice_of_nirvikalpa/?utm_source=share&utm_medium=web3x&utm_name=web3xcss&utm_term=1&utm_content=share_button

https://www.reddit.com/r/Arhatship/comments/s96m8v/a_comparison_of_cessation_in_the_progress_of/?utm_source=share&utm_medium=web3x&utm_name=web3xcss&utm_term=1&utm_content=share_button

The reason I am sharing this is that you are a TMI stage 7/8 practitioner and thus are highly skilled at generating vikalpa samadhi (samadhi with an object) this can potentially port to nirvikalpa style practice and might be frutiful in terms of entering nibbana for longer durations (as well as clinching the higher paths)

3. Mahasi Sayadaw has written a great deal about nibbana and how it is experienced in his book The Manual of Insight. I strongly recommend you check it out in case you want formal orientation

4. Mahasi Sayadaw's students who in turn teach other people have systematically recorded how various different types of minds talk about the knowledges or nyanas including the magga nyana and phal nyana. It is a beautiful study in the use of language by different people who have attained the same attainments. You can find this in a brief book posted here in DhO in the past by Eudoxos. You will have have to google it 'site:dharmaoverground.org eudoxos' that is also very very interesting in case you have an interest in theory

Best of luck in your practice.

It might be worth reading this stuff: 
12. Conformity – MCTB.org
though
15. Fruition – MCTB.org

But ultimately, the best way to explore this is to simply experiment. Get established in meditation and then resolve to experience it all again and then just let things happen naturally. What happens?


So far, based on the words you are using, e.g. "stopping dead" -- what you are experiencing sounds like the experience of a formless jhana where bodily experience drops away but the mind is aware. It can be like black space or pure mind or nothingness or a vague "thing-ness" (those are all loose english words for the formless jhanas). So definitely read about the formless jhanas in the first link I provided up thread. The other possibility is that you are experiencing the non-experience of nibbana and then the blackness of a formless jhana, which is what is described in the links in this post.

The more you experiment and explore, the more data you'll get about this and the easier it will be to diagnose.

Thanks Adi Vader for the book recommendation and links! I have some homework to do. I've also been working my way through Seeing that Frees from Rob Burbea. 

Also thanks to Shargrol. I'll give those links a read. 

I'm feeling thankful for everyone's help.

fun stuff!!
My experience of "blackness" (different than yours) got me to find MCTB. Then I read it. Then I read it immediately again.
I would recommend that you learn as much as you can about the basics therein before you widen out to more TMI or Seeing that frees....
Just a thought.
Cover the basic stuff, then ask more specific questions with an advanced vocabulary....you will get more detailed responses....
Your descriptions do not seem like a repeated cessation to me.... but hey, keep on keeeping on. You are getting good stuff...

​​​​​​​~D

There is a book which is quite useful for diagnostics and that a lot of people claiming SE should read : 
https://www.tbcm.org.my/blog/cessation-experiences-and-the-notion-of-awakening-ebook

I know you're not claiming anything but reading it might help understand further what was your experience. Also, it's coming from a bhikkhu so you get the seal of authenticity in a way.

So I've been listening to Rob Burbea's jhana retreat recordings again and I picked up on something. Rob said a sustained three characteristics way of looking (esp anicca) will allow one to skip jhana 1-4 and go straight to the fifth. I often use the three characteristics in my sits and I hadn't made the connection between dropping interest in materiality and dropping into the 5th jhana. It makes sense now that I think about it though.

Nice!