Ok. I am starting a practice log . I am 50 and have been meditating and off for about 10 years nothing serious. About 4 years ago I read MCTB2 and found  this forum.   I am deciding now to use MCTB2 AND Mahasi Sayadow's PRACTICAL INSIGHT MEDITATION as my main text. I have averaged about 1 hour sittings every day. I use breath at abdomen as my anchor.  Wow this is hard . I daydream often in my sitting about mundane things and memories etc. No real I sights yet. But sometimes I feel a little calm equanimity  

Can somebody be doing insight meditation and not even be on the map?

Well, does this seem familiar?  

​​​​​​​https://www.mctb.org/mctb2/table-of-contents/part-iv-insight/30-the-progress-of-insight/1-mind-and-body/

Best wishes to your practice! May it bare fruit! 

Note, relax, re-relax, note, note, note, relax, re-relax, note, note, note (matter of fact arisen experience of course) , note tension in body and relax, re-relax some more in the body, note ... etc ... 

I think the answer to this depends on how one sees the map. Many people argue that the map is universal and everyone, regardless of whether or not they meditate, is on the map. Other people argue that the map doesn't explain much outside of a Mahashi-style retreat. The argument can be made that, even on retreat, map labels are just one arbitrary way of understanding what is going on. 

One of the things that I notice is that the map includes 16 things to know. Knowing (deeply understanding) things like Mind and Body or Arising and Passing Away are important enough on the path of insight that they get their own insight stage. But there is no insight stage called, Knowledge of The Map. There is also no mention of a map in the suttas. I have never heard anyone claim that they were liberated from suffering by understanding a map. 

Because people talk about it so much, it's easy to think that it is very important to know where you are on the map. In my experience, it is most important to know what is going on, moment by moment, and know how what is going on goes on. Anything that distracts you from these investigations is probably best set aside. 

Unfortunately  I don't identify with that stage. There is only rarely a perceptual shift. I spend way to much time still stuck in discursive  thought memory etc. There have been a few little moments where things got interesting. I was meditating with a headache  . Trying to be mindfull of the sensation.  All of a sudden  , it didn't feel like "I" had a headache.  It was more like  there was a headache . Or the headache  had the headache.       this message  was supposed  ro answere SHAGROLS QUESTION

Thanks Papa

Sometimes we need time in our day to just sit and think and remember, so no big deal, it's part of being a normal healthy person.

If the discursive thinking and memories feel too claustrophobic and out of control, this is where noting practice is very good. The trick is to come up with "categories of thought" that you can note. This will be different stuff for different people. For example, if someone is worried about their practice they will probably be spending a lot of time thinking about it:

mapping thoughts
comparing thoughts
judging practice thoughts
planning thoughts
wanting to make more progress thoughts
wanting to quit thoughts
"this is wasting time" thoughts

etc.

So when you are sitting there, note the category of thoughts that come up for YOU. When you note the category of thoughts, you aren't embedded in the thought, you are being mindful of thought itself. 

Pretty soon you realize that all of this discursive thinking is just something the mind does --- but that doesn't mean it destroys mindfulness -- not if you can note the category of thought that is occuring in the present moment.

And sure, everyone gets lost in thought at times, that's normal and to be expected. When you snap out of the trance --- and when that happens isn't up to you, it's up to our mindfulness instinct --- when you snap out of it, just note the category of thought that had you in a trance. And guess what: now you are mindful and in the present moment again.

Honestly, it is completely fine that in 20 minutes of sitting you get lost 400 times, just as long as you come back 401 times. It's fine even if you get lost for 19 minutes and come back once. That "coming back to the present moment" is what gets trained in meditation and everyone starts off falling into trances A LOT. No big deal. It's just like someone working on balancing in the physical body: you balance on a narrow beam and fall off a lot, but if you keep getting up on the beam your balance quickly improves because your body wants to learn how to balance and likes to learn how to balance. Falling off is kinda fun too. So have the same attitude about trances and mindfulness, it's a game to play!

Noting really is a great approach. Anything that seems like bad practice actually becomes FUEL for practice. You can't go wrong!

Even if we're really negative:
don't want to practice thought
don't like practicing thought
I am stupid thought
this is dumb thought
i don't know what I'm doing thought
I suck at meditation thought
... after a while, you learn to develop a sense of humor about this --- look at how one part of my brain thinks it's a loser that can't do meditation, meanwhile another part of my brain is successfully doing noting meditation practice!

When you do this kind of noting practice you slowly learn that thoughts are just thoughts, just wisps of words in the mind, and your mindfulness instinct really isn't affected by thoughts ---- unless you choose to believe your thoughts! But you are not your thoughts, you are the awareness of your thoughts. You are awareness, not the contents of your awareness.

And remember that practice slowly develops our mindfulness instinct. Even though it feels like nothing is happening, you are actually making progress... The mindfulness instinct isn't under our direct control, it's sort of like developing a sense of balance in the body --- it just learns over time. We can't "think" or "force" ourself to balance, it's just an instinct we slowly train over time and the body itself learns to balance. Just like the mind itself slowly learns mindfulness itself. We can't "think" or "force" ourself to be mindful -- that kind of attitude just ends in frustration. 

So have fun with it, study your own mind, make up your own notes, and don't worry about thinking -- just worry about noting.

Hope this helps in some way.

Great advise . I always feel inspired by you shagrol. I need to keep a sense of humor. And I am noting the inner "chuckle ' right now...   I am also starting a couple of off the Cushin practices.   Mindfull driving ,on my commute  to and from work. Trying to stay away  from that highway hypnosis.    Also I run a few miles every other day.  I am ditching the headphones and trying to note sensations. Feet hitting the ground or the sound of my own breath even sweat dripping. . I am trying to stay out of that trance you talk about

I am staying consistent on my sits. I do almost 2 hours a day. Time is going by faster than it used to while sitting . It used to be I couldn't wait for it to finish. My mind is still all over the place. It might be 15 minutes in before I do my first note. The label I use is "trance " for long scattered daydreams. This is some difficult stuff so i try to have a sense of humor about it  at the rate I am going, I should reach The AP in about 10 lifetimes. . I hope I am reincarnated  as a smart guy with good concentration  skills

If I could do two hours practice a day I might literally be enlightened. 

Two hours is a lot but comendable. Don't burn yourself out. Slow and steady is good too. Slow and steady teaches us a lot of important things about the journey. Fast and heavy gives us lots of things to deal with. 

​​​​​​​IF I could do slow and steady every day....

My sits are 2 hours. The quality  of the sits are less than great. I daydream often before a catch it and note it. I consider myself a greenhorn. 

Why am I getting creepy feelings,during  meditation and after?. I feel  kind of like I am entering a room I shouldn't be in. However I will just keep going along. Focusing  on breath in the abdomen  and noting when my mind wonders . 

I manages to do 5,  1 hour sits yesterday. Seems like a good accomplishment.  I feel slightly  "other worldly,. But it's a Holliday  weekend. I would like to do 3.5 hours a day today. And scale back  to 2 hours on working days. I'm sticking with the Mahasi method by the way

A little creepiness is ok. In meditation we may come across the full range of human experiences. 

It can be useful to look around your room and verify for yourself that you are safe. If anything is too intense you can stop practicing. If you feel a little off but want to keep practicing with it remember to relax and breath.

Relaxation is very important. Especially if you are sitting for long periods. 

I did an hour and a half sit yesterday. It wasn't that difficult. It was a vipassana  sit . I got some good insights into body sensations even though I was anchored  on my breath . I caught my mind flickering to different places. Still a good deal of day dreaming. But I'm not going to beat myself up. Total of about 4 hours yesterday with other sits. Creepiness has subsided.         

On  another note . I manages to do 2 hours every day last work week . I am trying to bring mindfullness into other activities  running  weight lifting.  On my commute ro and from work . I stopped listening to the radio. Now i focus om the feeling of my hand on the steering wheel. Foot on the gas pedal. I note " looking" when driving and noticeyself  .  I still don't use mindfulness  while engaged  with people at work. I feel slightly  off.  But over all a good week . I still catch myself day dreaming like crazy.  It seems like we live 90 percent of our life in a trance 

My post aren't going through. It keeps taking me to the home page
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Ahh . There we go


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Productive week of meditation time wise . I do 2 hours a day on week days and about 3 on Saturday  and Sunday.  I'm not reading any more dharma books except for mctb and practical insight meditation by Sayadow.  I have been doing to much reading about meditation over the years. And not enough meditation. My meditations aren't great though.   I stink at it . I daydream alot in my sittings and my mind wonders.   I keep re reading the part in Sayadows book.  " IF YOUR SMART ENOUGH TO READ THIS BOOK, YOU CAN DO IT"  I guess I have to have a sense of humor .   

Noticing mind wandering is good practice. You could be daydreaming and not notice. 

​​​​​​​Humor is good practice !!

I agree. That  being said  ,mctb says it's good  to note 2 to 10 sensations a second .  That sounds impossible  to me lol.  I might daydream for a couple minutes then note " trance" and fo back to my meditations.   10 sensations a second sounds like Einstein  stuff. I am just an average guy

I've found the idea pace for most people, including myself, is one verbal note every outbreath --- we breath about 10 to 12 times a minute, so that's a note every 5 to 6 seconds. Of course you want to be "noticing" the entire time, but if you note once per out breath, that gives good feedback on mindfulness but isn't so fast that it causes tension, worry, struggling. 

I even do this as a sigh sometimes when things are difficult, so I sigh-note on each outbreath, which helps with relaxing and being mindful during challenging experiences.

A sighing exhale --- ahhhhh --- is good calming tool for off cushion too!

My practice is getting more consistent.  I meditated every day for the past month. Usually an hour. I have had a few short days though maybe a half hour. I don't beat myself up for it though. I have also had a couple of longer sits of about an hour and 20 minutes.
   I am sticking with Sayadow noting. Anchoring on breath.  I think i got a few glimpses  of "MIND AND BODY NANA" ,however I can't seem to hold it. It is kind of a letting go feeling. Some "mindfull mind "(as Shargrol puts it ) took over . That felt like "not me". But  don't get me wrong , the majority  of my sits have a lot of typical daydreaming. 
. I am also starting some  off the Cushin practice.  Mindfull driving on my commute to work and back . Also when i jog ,i am not using headphones but being mindfull of sensations.  I wont do mindfulness  at work yet. I think the added effort of being mindfull will disrupt some of my job performance . I tried it and people thought i looked odd or distant.   Anyway this is a  very difficult practice. I notice how the mind just gravitates to useless thoughts 

I had a very unique  meditation  tonight . 1 hour and 30 minutes . Longer than usual. I stated typically sitting with the back straight focusing on rising and falling. Intense pain set in quickly  at the upper back. Than bottom of my left foot . Then my left testicle .. tremmer in my right leg.  This was the most unrwlaxing sit ever.  
  I stuck with it and noticed that the different pain centers where helpng me stay mindfull. The pain died down slightly  after about 20 minutes but was still bad and remaind for the sitting. I started to seriously  identify with people who post on their Goenka retreats. It was a very physical sit. I actually praid to "God" or my "mindfull mind" to get me "ego  " to an hour.   At the end i tacked on 15 minutes . Than i tacked on another 15.  I stayed in good posture the whole time.  I really didn't have any insights but I completed  a good sit I guess.

Cheers dude!  

You sound like my ex , ... ex, ex, ex, ex that is! She would try to calm me down by saying to do that very same thing.  

"I think i got a few glimpses  of "MIND AND BODY NANA" ,however I can't seem to hold it."

There is nothing there to hold on to Its utterly impermanent. Its ok. Best friend is the very next arising matter-of-fact phenomenon! NOTE IT!

"I really didn't have any insights but I completed  a good sit I guess."

​​​​​​​ NICE! best wishes to you! 

2 hour sit completed today. I successfully  completed my longest sit. I was quite mindfull also ( at least for my level).. mind / body phenomenon started to pick up around  50 minutes ro an hour and a half.  It was sort of like the mindfullness was falling by its own  weight. ..    I don't think I would ever go longer than this. I imagine it might not be good for the body but every  couple of weeks I would like to do an extended sit.  My usual  is about 1 hour to an hour and 15 minutes.    Time  went by very quickly  it seems . It has been  during a lot of sits lately.  I'm not sure what that means as far as any progress.  Anyway  , I could sit tonight and barely pull off 40 minutes  of fidgeting, who knows.  I am just try to keep a consistent  daily practice. I don't think I have gone a day without  meditating in about 6 weeks.