Similarities between the stages of the Dark Night and the stages of grief - Discussion
Similarities between the stages of the Dark Night and the stages of grief
8年前 に Dani Mon によって更新されました。 at 16/06/16 8:41
Created 8年 ago at 16/06/16 8:36
Similarities between the stages of the Dark Night and the stages of grief
投稿: 33 参加年月日: 16/06/16 最新の投稿
The six stages of the Dark Night, according to Daniel Ingram's book, are:
With that in mind, I can see how insight's "dissolution" and grief's "denial" share many of the same characteristics. In my experience, "fear" and "anger" are intimately bond; "misery" souds like the perfect scenario for emotional "bargaining"; and "depression" and "disgust" go hand on hand most times. Finally, "desire for deliverance" and "re-observation" can be viewed as a natural part of the process of "acceptance".
This is fun but perhaps irrelevant after all. My question is, though, do you think that somehow the dark night is the logical grief that overcomes you when you realized that the arising and passing is gone? We do know that these stages are uncannily common among spiritual experiences, and that our brain, the nature of existence, or however you put it seems to work that way no matter what. The fractal nature of the insight cycles also easily comes to mind. Doesn't it makes sense that grief and dark night share so many traits because they are the representation of the same process, just on an espiritual level? This might just be the way humans cope with loss, of an inexplicabily good experience in this case (A&P), and that we need to go through denial (recognice that we are not as spiritually developed as we though); anger (because we realize); bargaining (yeah but at least I had the A&P right, so it's not that bad?); depression (yeah, but I can't go back there, it's gone, and I am here with my worldly pain); and finally acceptance (yes, desire to end with this, re-observation; equanimity hopefully).
Not sure of the implications of this, but it makes sense to me. Perhaps some of the psicological techniques used to deal with grief will also be helpful to deal with the mundane effects of the dark night?
Thoughs?
Daniel M.
- Dissolution,
- fear,
- missery,
- disgust,
- desire for deliverance,
- re-observation.
- Denial,
- anger,
- bargaining,
- depression,
- acceptance.
With that in mind, I can see how insight's "dissolution" and grief's "denial" share many of the same characteristics. In my experience, "fear" and "anger" are intimately bond; "misery" souds like the perfect scenario for emotional "bargaining"; and "depression" and "disgust" go hand on hand most times. Finally, "desire for deliverance" and "re-observation" can be viewed as a natural part of the process of "acceptance".
This is fun but perhaps irrelevant after all. My question is, though, do you think that somehow the dark night is the logical grief that overcomes you when you realized that the arising and passing is gone? We do know that these stages are uncannily common among spiritual experiences, and that our brain, the nature of existence, or however you put it seems to work that way no matter what. The fractal nature of the insight cycles also easily comes to mind. Doesn't it makes sense that grief and dark night share so many traits because they are the representation of the same process, just on an espiritual level? This might just be the way humans cope with loss, of an inexplicabily good experience in this case (A&P), and that we need to go through denial (recognice that we are not as spiritually developed as we though); anger (because we realize); bargaining (yeah but at least I had the A&P right, so it's not that bad?); depression (yeah, but I can't go back there, it's gone, and I am here with my worldly pain); and finally acceptance (yes, desire to end with this, re-observation; equanimity hopefully).
Not sure of the implications of this, but it makes sense to me. Perhaps some of the psicological techniques used to deal with grief will also be helpful to deal with the mundane effects of the dark night?
Thoughs?
Daniel M.
8年前 に neko によって更新されました。 at 16/06/16 16:40
Created 8年 ago at 16/06/16 16:40
RE: Similarities between the stages of the Dark Night and the stages of gri
投稿: 763 参加年月日: 14/11/26 最新の投稿insight's "dissolution" and grief's "denial" share many of the same characteristics.
"fear" and "anger" are intimately bond;
"misery" souds like the perfect scenario for emotional "bargaining"
"depression" and "disgust" go hand on hand most times.
Frankly, I don't think these correspondences make sense. They do not match at all the way I experience the nanas. Have you gone through the dukkha nanas at least once already?
8年前 に neko によって更新されました。 at 16/06/16 16:48
Created 8年 ago at 16/06/16 16:46
RE: Similarities between the stages of the Dark Night and the stages of gri
投稿: 763 参加年月日: 14/11/26 最新の投稿
If I had to try correspondences, they would be:
GRIEF NANA
1. Denial ???
2. anger 8. Disgust
3. bargaining 9. Desire for deliverance
4. depression 7. Misery or 5. Dissolution
5. acceptance 11. Equanimity
So while corresponces might be attempted, the order does not seem to be compatible.
GRIEF NANA
1. Denial ???
2. anger 8. Disgust
3. bargaining 9. Desire for deliverance
4. depression 7. Misery or 5. Dissolution
5. acceptance 11. Equanimity
So while corresponces might be attempted, the order does not seem to be compatible.
8年前 に Dream Walker によって更新されました。 at 16/06/16 17:12
Created 8年 ago at 16/06/16 17:12
RE: Similarities between the stages of the Dark Night and the stages of gri
投稿: 1759 参加年月日: 12/01/18 最新の投稿Daniel Mon:
The six stages of the Dark Night, according to Daniel Ingram's book, are:
With that in mind, I can see how insight's "dissolution" and grief's "denial" share many of the same characteristics. In my experience, "fear" and "anger" are intimately bond; "misery" souds like the perfect scenario for emotional "bargaining"; and "depression" and "disgust" go hand on hand most times. Finally, "desire for deliverance" and "re-observation" can be viewed as a natural part of the process of "acceptance".
This is fun but perhaps irrelevant after all. My question is, though, do you think that somehow the dark night is the logical grief that overcomes you when you realized that the arising and passing is gone? We do know that these stages are uncannily common among spiritual experiences, and that our brain, the nature of existence, or however you put it seems to work that way no matter what. The fractal nature of the insight cycles also easily comes to mind. Doesn't it makes sense that grief and dark night share so many traits because they are the representation of the same process, just on an espiritual level? This might just be the way humans cope with loss, of an inexplicabily good experience in this case (A&P), and that we need to go through denial (recognice that we are not as spiritually developed as we though); anger (because we realize); bargaining (yeah but at least I had the A&P right, so it's not that bad?); depression (yeah, but I can't go back there, it's gone, and I am here with my worldly pain); and finally acceptance (yes, desire to end with this, re-observation; equanimity hopefully).
Not sure of the implications of this, but it makes sense to me. Perhaps some of the psicological techniques used to deal with grief will also be helpful to deal with the mundane effects of the dark night?
Thoughs?
Daniel M.
- Dissolution,
- fear,
- missery,
- disgust,
- desire for deliverance,
- re-observation.
- Denial,
- anger,
- bargaining,
- depression,
- acceptance.
With that in mind, I can see how insight's "dissolution" and grief's "denial" share many of the same characteristics. In my experience, "fear" and "anger" are intimately bond; "misery" souds like the perfect scenario for emotional "bargaining"; and "depression" and "disgust" go hand on hand most times. Finally, "desire for deliverance" and "re-observation" can be viewed as a natural part of the process of "acceptance".
This is fun but perhaps irrelevant after all. My question is, though, do you think that somehow the dark night is the logical grief that overcomes you when you realized that the arising and passing is gone? We do know that these stages are uncannily common among spiritual experiences, and that our brain, the nature of existence, or however you put it seems to work that way no matter what. The fractal nature of the insight cycles also easily comes to mind. Doesn't it makes sense that grief and dark night share so many traits because they are the representation of the same process, just on an espiritual level? This might just be the way humans cope with loss, of an inexplicabily good experience in this case (A&P), and that we need to go through denial (recognice that we are not as spiritually developed as we though); anger (because we realize); bargaining (yeah but at least I had the A&P right, so it's not that bad?); depression (yeah, but I can't go back there, it's gone, and I am here with my worldly pain); and finally acceptance (yes, desire to end with this, re-observation; equanimity hopefully).
Not sure of the implications of this, but it makes sense to me. Perhaps some of the psicological techniques used to deal with grief will also be helpful to deal with the mundane effects of the dark night?
Thoughs?
Daniel M.
I had the same idea a while back
http://www.dharmaoverground.org/discussion/-/message_boards/message/4415915#_19_message_4553953
Kübler-Ross came to mind on mapping her stages to the nanasStages
They seem to line up pretty good
Grief stages..................Nanas
Denial...........................Fearfulness
Anger............................Fearfulness
Depression....................Misery
....................................Disgust
Bargaining.....................Desire for Deliverance
....................................Re-observation
Acceptance...................Equanimity
If I may be so bold, couldn't the nanas stages be applied to other things as the grief stages have? What would we get if we actively investigated addiction? Obsessive compulsive disorder? etc? what would come up?
Just some random thoughts after seeing parallels.
They seem to line up pretty good
Grief stages..................Nanas
Denial...........................Fearfulness
Anger............................Fearfulness
Depression....................Misery
....................................Disgust
Bargaining.....................Desire for Deliverance
....................................Re-observation
Acceptance...................Equanimity
If I may be so bold, couldn't the nanas stages be applied to other things as the grief stages have? What would we get if we actively investigated addiction? Obsessive compulsive disorder? etc? what would come up?
Just some random thoughts after seeing parallels.
Fun to think about
~D
7年前 に Dani Mon によって更新されました。 at 16/07/06 7:58
Created 7年 ago at 16/07/06 7:58
RE: Similarities between the stages of the Dark Night and the stages of gri
投稿: 33 参加年月日: 16/06/16 最新の投稿
I think I have experienced the dark night, in fact I would say that I feel like I've been living them most of my life, but of course I might be wrong. I guess the idea just hits you or not, this hit me while on a meditation retreat in which (I believe) I was dealing with the dark night. Cheers, Daniel M.
7年前 に shargrol によって更新されました。 at 16/07/06 9:34
Created 7年 ago at 16/07/06 9:34
RE: Similarities between the stages of the Dark Night and the stages of gri
投稿: 2549 参加年月日: 16/02/08 最新の投稿7年前 に Pablo CEG によって更新されました。 at 16/07/07 2:26
Created 7年 ago at 16/07/06 21:00
RE: Similarities between the stages of the Dark Night and the stages of gri
投稿: 23 参加年月日: 15/07/07 最新の投稿Daniel Mon:
The six stages of the Dark Night, according to Daniel Ingram's book, are:
- Dissolution,
- fear,
- missery,
- disgust,
- desire for deliverance,
- re-observation.
- Denial,
- anger,
- bargaining,
- depression,
- acceptance.
1. Denial: the aversion to the insight of no-self, that has grown unconsciously through Body & Mind up to Dissolution.
2. Anger: now you see parts of your unconscious, which you cannot control; there's no Self controlling thoughts.
3. Bargaining: ruminating thoughts of either stop meditating or straining yourself to overcome DN and reach EQ.
4. Depression: you didn't reach EQ, and so you're forced to live many times the same process until you succeed.
5. Acceptance: you became aware the atraction-aversion reactions towards Self/No-Self, and so let yourself reach EQ.
7年前 に Banned For waht? によって更新されました。 at 16/07/10 16:35
Created 7年 ago at 16/07/10 16:35
RE: Similarities between the stages of the Dark Night and the stages of gri
投稿: 500 参加年月日: 13/07/14 最新の投稿
Cut yourself from largescale activities, you will have suffering, as you need still pay for the debt somehow usually its mentally, subtly. Life will go downhill fast.