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Direct Pointing

40 years of Vipassana. 3 days of direct looking. Breaking Free.

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40 years of Vipassana. 3 days of direct looking. Breaking Free. Elena Joy 9/3/11 12:11 AM
RE: 40 years of Vipassana. 3 days of direct looking. Done. This Good Self 7/12/11 7:43 AM
RE: 40 years of Vipassana. 3 days of direct looking. Done. Nick W 7/12/11 1:16 PM
RE: 40 years of Vipassana. 3 days of direct looking. Done. Beoman Claudiu Dragon Emu Fire Golem 7/12/11 1:38 PM
RE: 40 years of Vipassana. 3 days of direct looking. Done. Elena Joy 7/12/11 11:10 PM
RE: 40 years of Vipassana. 3 days of direct looking. Done. Elena Joy 7/18/11 12:24 AM
RE: 40 years of Vipassana. 3 days of direct looking. Done. Elena Joy 7/18/11 12:31 AM
RE: 40 years of Vipassana. 3 days of direct looking. Done. Elena Joy 7/18/11 12:21 AM
RE: 40 years of Vipassana. 3 days of direct looking. Done. Elena Joy 7/18/11 12:34 AM
RE: 40 years of Vipassana. 3 days of direct looking. Done. Elena Joy 7/18/11 12:37 AM
RE: 40 years of Vipassana. 3 days of direct looking. Done. Elena Joy 7/21/11 2:39 AM
RE: 40 years of Vipassana. 3 days of direct looking. Done. Ross A. K. 7/21/11 2:55 PM
RE: 40 years of Vipassana. 3 days of direct looking. Done. Elena Joy 7/23/11 1:36 AM
RE: 40 years of Vipassana. 3 days of direct looking. Done. Ross A. K. 7/23/11 8:29 AM
RE: 40 years of Vipassana. 3 days of direct looking. Done. Elena Joy 7/28/11 6:20 PM
RE: 40 years of Vipassana. 3 days of direct looking. Done. Ross A. K. 7/29/11 9:47 AM
RE: 40 years of Vipassana. 3 days of direct looking. Done. Elena Joy 7/30/11 1:34 AM
RE: 40 years of Vipassana. 3 days of direct looking. Done. Daniel M. Ingram 8/7/11 1:40 AM
RE: 40 years of Vipassana. 3 days of direct looking. Done. Elena Joy 8/22/11 1:50 AM
RE: 40 years of Vipassana. 3 days of direct looking. Done. Elena Joy 8/22/11 10:21 PM
RE: 40 years of Vipassana. 3 days of direct looking. Done. Rich - 8/23/11 1:41 PM
RE: 40 years of Vipassana. 3 days of direct looking. Done. Elena Joy 8/23/11 4:33 PM
RE: 40 years of Vipassana. 3 days of direct looking. Done. Rich - 8/24/11 9:36 AM
RE: 40 years of Vipassana. 3 days of direct looking. Done. Elena Joy 8/28/11 2:43 AM
RE: 40 years of Vipassana. 3 days of direct looking. Done. Elena Joy 8/6/11 3:28 AM
RE: 40 years of Vipassana. 46 years of Soto Zen. Breaking Free. Elena Joy 8/30/11 3:05 AM
RE: 40 years of Vipassana. 46 years of Soto Zen. Breaking Free. Nikolai . 8/30/11 9:57 AM
RE: 40 years of Vipassana. 46 years of Soto Zen. Breaking Free. Tommy M 8/30/11 2:53 PM
RE: 40 years of Vipassana. 46 years of Soto Zen. Breaking Free. Elena Joy 8/30/11 3:27 PM
RE: 40 years of Vipassana. 46 years of Soto Zen. Breaking Free. Nikolai . 8/30/11 6:06 PM
RE: 40 years of Vipassana. 46 years of Soto Zen. Breaking Free. Tommy M 8/30/11 6:09 PM
RE: 40 years of Vipassana. 46 years of Soto Zen. Breaking Free. Elena Joy 8/31/11 12:04 AM
RE: 40 years of Vipassana. 46 years of Soto Zen. Breaking Free. Elena Joy 8/30/11 11:45 PM
RE: 40 years of Vipassana. 46 years of Soto Zen. Breaking Free. Andrew . 8/31/11 12:33 AM
RE: 40 years of Vipassana. 46 years of Soto Zen. Breaking Free. Tommy M 8/31/11 5:00 AM
RE: 40 years of Vipassana. 46 years of Soto Zen. Breaking Free. N A 8/31/11 12:19 PM
RE: 40 years of Vipassana. 46 years of Soto Zen. Breaking Free. Elena Joy 9/3/11 12:21 AM
RE: 40 years of Vipassana. 46 years of Soto Zen. Breaking Free. Elena Joy 9/3/11 1:30 AM
RE: 40 years of Vipassana. 46 years of Soto Zen. Breaking Free. Elena Joy 9/12/11 2:01 AM
40 years of Vipassana. 3 days of direct looking. Breaking Free.
stream entry vipassana no self
Answer
9/3/11 12:11 AM
Hi, guys

Over the past week I worked one-on-one with 4 people with hard-core Vipassana background. 3 from this forum and 1 is my friend, long course vipassana practitioner. I also will add if anybody will come across with dharma background, not necessarily from this forum.

I will post out work here for you to look at.


40 years of Spiritual Search. Breaking Free.

Deep Honesty breaks the Illusion

Stream Entry

Burning Imaginary "I"

Let's Take the Root Out!

Liberation 101: Chop wood, do laundry!

This is the work on this forum in Direct Pointing section: Work on this forum in Direct Pointing section


I really encourage you to read, if you can, and it may help clear some doubt about effectiveness of direct looking.

As always, please feel free to contact me (send me message here on this forum), or any of my friends either on ruthlesstruth.com or facebook.

I have to tell, guys from this forum are really hurd nuts to break, so to speak, I am telling this with much love.
But the relief is tremendous.

The most emotional recent work: Professor, 72 y.o 46 years of Soto Zen - liberation

I keep adding here every week,

I have this recent one with Theravada meditation teacher:

Theravada meditation teacher steps through the Gate



Hugs to all. Elena

RE: 40 years of Vipassana. 3 days of direct looking. Done.
Answer
7/12/11 7:43 AM as a reply to Elena Joy.
You're using tricky word-plays to confuse the seeker into a mild trance state, then mistaking that for awakening. Milton Erickson and the NLP wide boys use confusion as a tactic to quieten the conscious mind and introduce suggestion this way.

You're no more enlightened than me. Stop leading people up the garden path!

RE: 40 years of Vipassana. 3 days of direct looking. Done.
Answer
7/12/11 1:16 PM as a reply to This Good Self.
I've been trying to make some sense of all these recent posts. They smell all wrong. After reading your comment CCC, I went and found this. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Milton_H._Erickson#Confusion_technique

Makes for interesting reading in this context. Thanks.

RE: 40 years of Vipassana. 3 days of direct looking. Done.
Answer
7/12/11 1:38 PM as a reply to Nick W.
Nick Wilson:
I've been trying to make some sense of all these recent posts. They smell all wrong. After reading your comment CCC, I went and found this. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Milton_H._Erickson#Confusion_technique

Makes for interesting reading in this context. Thanks.


hmm well the technique essentially seems to be - disarm all of the person's beliefs. cause them to be dropped. this does lead to a confused state since the mind is unable to fall back on anything it believes it knows. from that state the person has to look.

the question is: does it lead to genuine insight, leading to a shift in understanding, from which, yes, new (and incorrect) beliefs may be formed, or does it just layer a new belief on top of old stuff (taking advantage of a naive mind) with no genuine insight behind it?

RE: 40 years of Vipassana. 3 days of direct looking. Done.
Answer
7/12/11 11:10 PM as a reply to Beoman Claudiu Dragon Emu Fire Golem.
To all who are sceptical:

You can confuse somebody on the street. You can't confuse the mind that was focusing in Vipassana for 40 years. And that honesty that came out from S. in the second thread, that honesty is not a mind trick. This can't be understood with reading the text. This is only for those who see the truth in this. If you don't, do whatever you inspired to do, it's just fine.

RE: 40 years of Vipassana. 3 days of direct looking. Done.
Answer
7/18/11 12:24 AM as a reply to Elena Joy.
I posted Stream Entry thread today: Stream Entry

This was interesting since this man was told by his teacher that he had stream entry last year. I asked him to explain the experience, and then we went ahead with looking into the nature of reality. At the end he agreed that actually this was Stream Entry for him, when the illusion of "I" was actually seeing through.

RE: 40 years of Vipassana. 3 days of direct looking. Done.
Answer
7/18/11 12:31 AM as a reply to Elena Joy.
I posted Burning imaginary "I" - my friend, long courses Vipassana student.

With him I started 6 months ago just by telling him that I had somebody guided me to realize anatta. Then I suggested him to read Jed McKenna "Spiritually Incorrect Enlightenment", just to prepare his mind to see that meditation is not necessary to penetrate the illusion. It's difficult for people with Vipassana background to accept anything else, except this practice. Since it was my friend and fellow meditator, I just used my example and Jed's first book. After reading Jed he asked me what's next, and I offered him to try direct pointing. This was the most difficult work for me, since I was emotionally invested, somehow it was just very hard. Then I dropped the expectation, and things started to move. I have only a portion of this on the blog, otherwise it would be too long, and besides, I lost part of the chat.

RE: 40 years of Vipassana. 3 days of direct looking. Done.
Answer
7/18/11 12:21 AM as a reply to Elena Joy.
I added Let's Take the Root Out!

This was relatively easy and quick. This man did not have much concepts, was open and ready to look immediately.

RE: 40 years of Vipassana. 3 days of direct looking. Done.
Answer
7/18/11 12:34 AM as a reply to Elena Joy.
Deep Honesty Breaks The Illusion

This man I will remember to the rest of my life. At the middle of our work together he came up with such profound honesty that I never forget. Read his list. I bet many of us could sign under it.

RE: 40 years of Vipassana. 3 days of direct looking. Done.
Answer
7/18/11 12:37 AM as a reply to Elena Joy.
40 Years of Vipassana, 3 Days of Direct Looking.


This was my first man from this board. Great guy. Thanks, J! With profound 40 years of practice. We found a lot in common later when we talked.

RE: 40 years of Vipassana. 3 days of direct looking. Done.
Answer
7/21/11 2:39 AM as a reply to Elena Joy.
New: Liberation 101: Chop wood, do laundry!emoticon

This was very spontaneous team work yesterday. Man was doing his laundry, and was talking to us, using his mobile phoneemoticon It was absolutely awesome. The guy also Vipassana practitioner. This was awesomely quick!

RE: 40 years of Vipassana. 3 days of direct looking. Done.
Answer
7/21/11 2:55 PM as a reply to Elena Joy.
Very very few people will reach liberation by this method. this is like the story of bahiya. you know theres only the seen no see-er. another thing that people dont take into consideration is that bahiya had been practicing something for a long time. and his mind was ripe for the Buddha's instruction. if only he hadnt been killed by a mad cow moments later.

You cant think your way to enlightenment. well maybe "you" can. maybe your another bahiya. 99% are not. and just talking about no self isnt enough. Here's one to ponder, "the buddha talked of anatta but he also said make yourself an island". to be, not to be, both, or neither do not apply to those that have reached the unconditioned.

Direct looking is the definition of vipassana by the way.

RE: 40 years of Vipassana. 3 days of direct looking. Done.
Answer
7/23/11 1:36 AM as a reply to Ross A. K..
This is not intellectual, and not talking. Seems like, maybe, for you when you read casually. These people really looked into reality as it is. Try for yourself, then comment. You can't comment on how tasty or not is Raw Food Cheesecake if you never tried one. You see the description and say: raw cheesecake? Either not possible or tastes awful. Same here.

RE: 40 years of Vipassana. 3 days of direct looking. Done.
Answer
7/23/11 8:29 AM as a reply to Elena Joy.
I have had raw food cheese cake and it is good! and, yes, your right I dont know about this particular method. I really think its same old seeing reality as it is, just has a different name. so call it what you want. I hope it does work for those that believe it does and some that don't. believing in what one is doing, in regards to practice, is indispensable, as, I'm sure you already know. with metta - Ross

RE: 40 years of Vipassana. 3 days of direct looking. Done.
Answer
7/28/11 6:20 PM as a reply to Ross A. K..
Yes, Ross, Raw cheesecake is great!emoticon And you right, it's a new fancy name for what zen masters do, but in their elaborate ways, mixed with a lot of rituals to confuse and disorient the mindemoticon Look here, if no time - read at the end what the guy wrote:

And I was meditating my ass off for 25 years for THIS??!!

RE: 40 years of Vipassana. 3 days of direct looking. Done.
Answer
7/29/11 9:47 AM as a reply to Elena Joy.
Becoming enlightened is like back in the days when I used to smoke a lot of pot and I taught I lost my lighter. After looking around frantically for my lighter I realized to my amazement it was in my hand the whole time emoticon! realizing (on July 13th, 2011) that there is nothing, no-self, void-ness, and vastness with astounding clarity, I burst out in amazement of this Dharma and bliss joy equanimity shot through my being with resonating laughter. Then a feeling/thaught of, Really! that's it!? yes, that's it, sunk in!
I dont want to officially make a claim yet. I need to be sure. And, I'm gonna give this a lot of time. I'm intentionally leaving out quite a bit because I feel uncomfortable discussing this. Most likely due to my fundamentalist Theravada mindset. that's changed too. I could very well be way overestimating this. Im looking for a practical approach to this issue. and where to go from here. How not to get so cocky that I get lost in my own righteousness......................
What do you think about that?

RE: 40 years of Vipassana. 3 days of direct looking. Done.
Answer
7/30/11 1:34 AM as a reply to Ross A. K..
Ahahahaha! That is great! You know, we, hard-core "serious" seekers are so serious of everything, so we can't even celebrate what is!emoticon)) We keep it low and check it out for yearsemoticon Because we have this image of how it should be, and it should be quite, bliss and nirvana. Or whatever. Anyways, I am so happy for you. There is nothing you will loose, there is no point to worry. Just go ahead and celebrate with living your life to the fullest! Without fear - any fear, even fear of loosing this. Haha. What a freedom and end of search! Awesome. Of cause body/mind will keep unfolding - all these years of folding and folding the self, protecting - tensions and old beliefs and other stuff remains. But now, it will all start to fall off like leaves from the tree in a fall - no need for all this to remain in the system. Much Love, Nipuna!

Look up Part 2 of the same guy:

i've-been-meditating-my-ass-off-for-25 years. Part 2

RE: 40 years of Vipassana. 3 days of direct looking. Done.
Answer
8/6/11 3:28 AM as a reply to Elena Joy.
Introducing Paul - somebody who stepped to work with me in the Direct Pointing Section of this forum:

Working with Paul from this forumhttp://www.dharmaoverground.org/web/guest/discussion/-/message_boards/message/2063058

RE: 40 years of Vipassana. 3 days of direct looking. Done.
Answer
8/7/11 1:40 AM as a reply to Ross A. K..
In response to the notion that this is anti-traditional or that this is not fundamentalist Theravadan stuff in some way: if you look at the old texts, the practice instructions for insight again and again are: "That is not self, that is not me, that is not mine, that is impermanent, that is causal, that is empty. This is not self, this is not me, this is not mine, this is impermanent, this is causal, this is empty." Again and again, they were asked to observe this, contemplate this, experience this, know this directly for everything, exactly as these Direct Pointers are onto, and more power to them.

I don't know what people are doing in vipassana, but if it is something other than seeing the Three Characteristics, of which two are strongly emphasized by the Direct Pointers, then I would say that isn't vipassana, and is something else being sold as vipassana but isn't.

I like this very immediate, very hardcore, very straightforward approach. I have this feeling that there are levels to it beyond the obvious, but this is a discussion for another time. Regardless, good stuff.

RE: 40 years of Vipassana. 3 days of direct looking. Done.
Answer
8/22/11 1:50 AM as a reply to Daniel M. Ingram.
Daniel, I appreciate your input on this thread. I heard you help people with insight pointing. I have to tell you that you are first "established teacher of spirituality" that opened his forum, accepted this way, and publicly said that. I really respect you for this, and definitely want to know more about you. I see pure mind, open heart, amazing. Much gratitude and appreciation!

I would like to offer you and others on this forum this work I just finished with somebody. This somebody was not just somebody - it was really hard nut. Man is 72 years old. Professor of psychiatry. 46 years in Soto Zen. He worked with Thassa, then I took him over. His name, of cause, changed.

I am sorry if it's sometimes difficult to read - I am trying to compile these threads as closer as possible. It's difficult. Takes me about 3 hours to do the post from my countless emails. It's almost 5am, I finished it, but I couldn't resist to go and post it here for you, my friends! Appreciate openness of this forum. Love you all.
Elena

Read here: Professor Breaking Free

RE: 40 years of Vipassana. 3 days of direct looking. Done.
Answer
8/22/11 10:21 PM as a reply to Daniel M. Ingram.
Daniel, I found your blog and there - some information about you and article on Arhats. Will read tonight. Also I spoke to professor about you and sent him your blog. I saw you are M.D. too and interested in permaculture, and of cause interest in awakening: you may have some things in commonemoticon. I just felt inspired to tell professor about you, so he may contact you. You are doing great work all over the internet and on the ground!emoticon Wish you much wellbeing! Hugs, E.

RE: 40 years of Vipassana. 3 days of direct looking. Done.
Answer
8/23/11 1:41 PM as a reply to Daniel M. Ingram.
Daniel M. Ingram:

I like this very immediate, very hardcore, very straightforward approach. I have this feeling that there are levels to it beyond the obvious, but this is a discussion for another time. Regardless, good stuff.


Daniel if you have time I would appreciate some clarification on this.

I'm somewhat confused by what direct pointing is, but if I'm correct that it is a school of thought which believes you can instantly see the dillusion of self and get all the way along the path just by logically questioning it in a certain way - which is what it definately appears to be... then I'm extremely confused by your comment...

You said in MCTB that you had never met anyone who had experienced "sudden enlightenment" without a dedicated meditation practice. However this is more or less what direct pointing seems to advocate? Especially if we're talking about what's going on at "Ruthless Truth".

Could Daniel or someone else clarify?

RE: 40 years of Vipassana. 3 days of direct looking. Done.
Answer
8/23/11 4:33 PM as a reply to Rich -.
Hi, Rich! I would love Daniel talk more too! I hope he will.

From myself I will share this video of one of my teachers - Shinzen Young:

Many facets of Enlightenment

RE: 40 years of Vipassana. 3 days of direct looking. Done.
Answer
8/24/11 9:36 AM as a reply to Elena Joy.
Hi Elena...

Shinzen is the closest I've got to a "guru", I've watched everything he's got on YouTube at least once. I'm familiar with that video. He doesn't say at any point that there is an instant solution which does not require any previous practice.

Ciaran Healy's "method" to enlightenment seems to be almost just a philosophical decision that there is no such thing as self. I appologise if we're not talking about the same thing here... I googled Direct Pointing and that lead to be Ruthless Truth which led me to Ciaran... who as it turns out is someone I'm already quite familiar with from 6 or 7 years ago for something called the "Apocolypse Opener" which is actually a way of meeting women in nightclubs.

Even in the case of Eckhart Tolle who almost makes it seem like all that's required is a decision to live in the moment and that's the job done, he actually meditated and still meditates for long durations of time on a regular basis. His book describes an over-night change, but it doesn't mention the years of preparation which set him up to have it.

As much as I would love for there to be a way through like this, I'm skeptical because I'm not convinced enlightenment and destruction of the self can happen without thousands of hours of chipping away. The truth is I have ALREADY ACCEPTED that there is no self, and I'm ALREADY PREPARED to let go of my identity. But that logical acceptance aside, I do not feel free, and even though I have moments with more self, and less self, and even though I am even now becomming familiar with a "sense" of what "self" actually tastes like... there has been no sudden explosion or dissolution for me. I feel extremely trapped and it seems that regardless of my will to let go of who I am... to accept that there is no observed and no cause but infact just experience... it doesn't matter. I can't do it, because I can't see it.

And to be honest... my knowledge on this subject and my intution tells me the reason why I can't do it is because I simply do not have the meditative skill ... I haven't yet got the clarity or focus necesary to spilt up the illusive self and for "me" to dissolve permenantly into nothing more than sensory experience. The answer to that... is daily practice for an indeterminate ammount of time.

I wish it were more simple, but I do not beleive it. If you have something I cann do which you think will change that I am prepared to do it.

The way I see enlightenment, and the way it most plausibly appears... is that it's an experience you have once you have developed a sufficient level of specific mental skills... those skills you development in meditation. How you have that experience... well it appears there are many ways. Asking "Who am I" over and over... noting... zen... and so on... but the question of whether you can have that big E experience without building up an intensley awesome set of meditative-related mental skills first? I doubt it. I can't believe that thousands and thousands of years of monks experimenting with this would have missed the short-cut and instead took the long option of meditating for 10 hours a day if that were a possibility.

RE: 40 years of Vipassana. 3 days of direct looking. Done.
Answer
8/28/11 2:43 AM as a reply to Rich -.
Rich N:
Hi Elena...

Shinzen is the closest I've got to a "guru", I've watched everything he's got on YouTube at least once. I'm familiar with that video. He doesn't say at any point that there is an instant solution which does not require any previous practice.


Look up in his new structure of his teaching - he has different categories. Not all of them require meditation experience.

Ciaran Healy's "method" to enlightenment seems to be almost just a philosophical decision that there is no such thing as self. I appologise if we're not talking about the same thing here... I googled Direct Pointing and that lead to be Ruthless Truth which led me to Ciaran... who as it turns out is someone I'm already quite familiar with from 6 or 7 years ago for something called the "Apocolypse Opener" which is actually a way of meeting women in nightclubs.


6-7 years ago, you say? And who knows what he did besides that. Read his Thunder and Sunshine on his blog - you get more wider view how he was evolving. He is not cookie cutter-ed, that's for sure.

Even in the case of Eckhart Tolle who almost makes it seem like all that's required is a decision to live in the moment and that's the job done, he actually meditated and still meditates for long durations of time on a regular basis. His book describes an over-night change, but it doesn't mention the years of preparation which set him up to have it.


I am not much familiar with Eckhart. I never head he was seriously meditated before his awakening. But again, I am not familiar.

As much as I would love for there to be a way through like this, I'm skeptical because I'm not convinced enlightenment and destruction of the self can happen without thousands of hours of chipping away.


then for you it will be thousands of hours

The truth is I have ALREADY ACCEPTED that there is no self, and I'm ALREADY PREPARED to let go of my identity.


nothing needs to be accepted. Please, please do not accept anything - find out for yourself!

But that logical acceptance aside, I do not feel free,


here you go - that's right

and even though I have moments with more self, and less self,


That is not possible. Self does not exist. Not more self, not less self. Look if possible to have less or more of Unicorn in your room. Or it's just a thought, an image that in actuality does not exist?


and even though I am even now becoming familiar with a "sense" of what "self" actually tastes like... there has been no sudden explosion or dissolution for me. I feel extremely trapped and it seems that regardless of my will to let go of who I am...


this is very honest. And you can see the suffering in it. Right there - dukkha. When sense of self is the owner of the house - he make believe he is exist in actuality. But because this is false, and in reality there is no self - you feel the turmoil. So find out the truth.

to accept that there is no observed and no cause but infact just experience... it doesn't matter. I can't do it, because I can't see it.


very true. You know what will help you - your honesty and non-acceptance of what you can't see for yourself. Good. very good. Do not accept - dig deeper.

And to be honest... my knowledge on this subject and my intuition tells me the reason why I can't do it is because I simply do not have the meditative skill ..
.

To see the illusion of the self, meditative skills not necessary. For some - needed to go through thousand of hours, for some - none. What is depends on I don't know, maybe Daniel Ingram knows, I would love to hear on this from him. For me was necessary, for some reason, but for some others not ( my friend Ilona on this forum, for example).


I haven't yet got the clarity or focus necessary to spilt up the illusive self and for "me" to dissolve permanently into nothing more than sensory experience The answer to that... is daily practice for an indeterminate amount of time..


The way you are talking about is very long. There is shorter way to see the non-existence of the self. If you watch all the Shinzen Young, in one of his videos he explicitly said that his awakening was not with any of his practices: vipassana or zen ot vajrayana, but with inner inquiry method, similar to direct pointing - look into your immediate experience and tell the truth about it. You can do whatever you want after that - you can meditate your thousand hours, why not if you will be drown to it. BUT there will be monumental difference who/what is meditating.


I wish it were more simple, but I do not believe it. If you have something I can do which you think will change that I am prepared to do it.


Consider meditation for mind purification and direct pointing or inner inquiry for finding the truth right now. If you decide, email me completehumanity at gmail dot com, if I am free at the moment, I will help you to keep the direction where and how to look.

The way I see enlightenment, and the way it most plausibly appears... is that it's an experience you have once you have developed a sufficient level of specific mental skills... those skills you development in meditation.


Look, how you are one step forward and one back - I don't believe, but I am willing to try, but it's not possible, blah, blah - and the mind will find excuses, sure. It's a hide-and-seek game.

How you have that experience... well it appears there are many ways. Asking "Who am I" over and over... noting... zen... and so on... but the question of whether you can have that big E experience without building up an intensely awesome set of meditative-related mental skills first? I doubt it.


Big E experience - what's that? How can you now know what is that? Is that even possible. So look honestly - right here - you know its not possible, but you keep having this image of Big E alive. It's false. False image.

I can't believe that thousands and thousands of years of monks experimenting with this would have missed the short-cut and instead took the long option of meditating for 10 hours a day if that were a possibility.


Some were taking that option, yes. Like Ramana Maharshi, for example. Again, this I am not sure why for some thousands of hours on the bank of the river needed to enter the stream and for some - they just jump in. It's not a choice anyways, it's what is happening. So what is happening for you is what is, just notice and enjoy the unfolding.

RE: 40 years of Vipassana. 46 years of Soto Zen. Breaking Free.
Answer
8/30/11 3:05 AM as a reply to Elena Joy.
S. to me: I have been practicing meditation
consistently for over fifteen years and have been teaching meditation
and Buddhist principles for seven of those. I am an ordained Buddhist
minister,
but shy away from the ritualistic practices of the Buddhism.
I teach three or four times per week to help people find a solution to
ease their troubles, I have literally gone through hundreds and hundreds
of meditation students. I have written several books an the subject, and
lead by example by practicing sitting meditation a lot! but! No one, to
my knowledge, is waking up! there is no permanent liberation to be
found. No body, including myself, is getting truly free.


here it is:

Ordained Buddhist Minister: I see it as the opportunity of lifetimes

RE: 40 years of Vipassana. 46 years of Soto Zen. Breaking Free.
Answer
8/30/11 9:57 AM as a reply to Elena Joy.
Elena Joy:
S. to me: I have been practicing meditation
consistently for over fifteen years and have been teaching meditation
and Buddhist principles for seven of those. I am an ordained Buddhist
minister,
but shy away from the ritualistic practices of the Buddhism.
I teach three or four times per week to help people find a solution to
ease their troubles, I have literally gone through hundreds and hundreds
of meditation students. I have written several books an the subject, and
lead by example by practicing sitting meditation a lot! but! No one, to
my knowledge, is waking up! there is no permanent liberation to be
found. No body, including myself, is getting truly free.


here it is:

Ordained Buddhist Minister: I see it as the opportunity of lifetimes


When I was in Burma ages ago, I saw Buddhist monks who had been monks for a while smoking ciggies, lifting weights, chatting, doing stuff that didn't seem aimed towards release. Being a buddhist minister, monk, hardcore follower of this teacher or that teacher is no guarantee of release from suffering even after years of so called practice. Many people to my knowledge are waking up. The DhO is full of examples, RT aside.

Nick

RE: 40 years of Vipassana. 46 years of Soto Zen. Breaking Free.
Answer
8/30/11 2:53 PM as a reply to Elena Joy.
S. to me: I have been practicing meditation
consistently for over fifteen years and have been teaching meditation
and Buddhist principles for seven of those. I am an ordained Buddhist
minister

Why is this important?

Why do you mention it on this thread, and then again on a seperate thread with emphasis on the fact that this person has, clearly unsuccessfully and probably due to poor practice, followed a Buddhist path for however many years?

Would I be incorrect in stating that you have an agenda here?

If so, come out with it and talk about it openly rather than just hinting at it.

RE: 40 years of Vipassana. 46 years of Soto Zen. Breaking Free.
Answer
8/30/11 3:27 PM as a reply to Tommy M.
Agenda only to show it is possible. This man amazed me with "beginner mind" even though he had so much experience and is involved with teaching. That's all it is. I highlight in each work something that s unique. This was unique about this particular man, and amazing at the same time. For me. I met many teachers of meditation locked in their way and identity, so it was really refreshing. Why I posted in another thread? Because originally I had this one, and then Daniel created Direct Pointing section. if this one can be moved to that section, will be better, but for now I post sometimes there too not to have it empty. I know that putting things in the face can bring a reaction in some, but it also draw others attention, and they see it is possible. I would surely be grateful if I get across something that would point me where to look, while I was sitting years and years in retreats, and were told that the path is thousands of lifetimes long. So, I hope you, Tommy, won't be that hard on me.

And if you really read the thread, Nikolai, you will see that there were nothing that you can label with one label "RT" or etc there. I use my own "sense" every time I approach somebody. Nobody in RT works with hidden feelings and graspings in a feeling the way I do it. All do it in their own way. I use some techniques from different teachers that are mostly unknown, like Pamela Wilson. She is disciple of Robert Adams who was direct disciple of Ramana Maharshi. She and I became friends sometime ago because I resonated with her way from the first time I met her. So I guess, I combine classical vipassana with working with feelings in the Pamela's way and my own ability to keep focus very narrow.

I never know what I can do, what I will be doing, and will it be some result at the end. And still I don't really know what I do. But apparently people write to me, some conversation happens, people get benefits, I get feeling of appreciation that I have time at the moment and something that helps them. This thing just happening, whatever comes up in the moment. And there is no contradiction with Dho or anything else. I am just sharing my take on direct pointing. How long, I am not sure, in what way in a future - have no idea. Things fall on my lap, and I sort them as they fallemoticon

RE: 40 years of Vipassana. 46 years of Soto Zen. Breaking Free.
Answer
8/30/11 6:06 PM as a reply to Elena Joy.
Elena Joy:


And if you really read the thread, Nikolai, you will see that there were nothing that you can label with one label "RT" or etc there. I use my own "sense" every time I approach somebody. Nobody in RT works with hidden feelings and graspings in a feeling the way I do it.


Hi Elena,

Fair call. My mistake. Keep doing what you are doing.

Just a short anecdote from my own experience. I started meditating in the Goenka tradition in 2000. Was quite hardcore. Went and lived at a Goenka centre for over a year, went to live near Goenkaji in Igatpuri, India for 10 months, sat well over 12 or so courses, a couple of 20 days, lots and lots of serving of courses. I got very good at being equanimous. It changed me quite a bit. The sankaras were reigned in, and I developed good healthy mental habits. The mind was purified somewhat. I think I did a lot of work on the physio-energetic development within the body in that time. But I never got to 1st path (stream entry) in those 8 years of being a Goenka yogi. Not until I added mahasi noting to the mix and started looking and investigating into the illusory 'self' head on. This was all upon coming in contact with Daniel and the DhO.

I do believe many yogis spend years developing their paramis but fall just short of tipping the balance towards stream entry. There is benefit to practicing day in and out though without getting 1st path. I made extremely fast progress through the technical paths after getting 1st path (6 months to MCTB 4th path) and then a year from MCTB 4th path to what appears to be af (within 4 months of actualist inspired practice).

The skills and access to subtle realities of mind and body that were gained over the 8 years immersed in the Goenka tradition served me well and were definitely not a waste of time. If I had not done the preparatory work, I would perhaps have stalled at 1st path or maybe never have gotten there to begin with and certainly wouldn't have taken so short a time to get where I now am.

Nick

RE: 40 years of Vipassana. 46 years of Soto Zen. Breaking Free.
Answer
8/30/11 6:09 PM as a reply to Elena Joy.
Agenda only to show it is possible. This man amazed me with "beginner mind" even though he had so much experience and is involved with teaching. That's all it is. I highlight in each work something that s unique. This was unique about this particular man, and amazing at the same time. For me. I met many teachers of meditation locked in their way and identity, so it was really refreshing. Why I posted in another thread? Because originally I had this one, and then Daniel created Direct Pointing section. if this one can be moved to that section, will be better, but for now I post sometimes there too not to have it empty. I know that putting things in the face can bring a reaction in some, but it also draw others attention, and they see it is possible. I would surely be grateful if I get across something that would point me where to look, while I was sitting years and years in retreats, and were told that the path is thousands of lifetimes long. So, I hope you, Tommy, won't be that hard on me.

Please don't take the tone of my writing as confrontational or anything, it's not intentional, I'm genuinely interested in hearing what you've got to say. When I mentioned an agenda I was specifically talking about the way you put the emphasis, on more than one occasion, on the fact that someone has unsuccessfully practiced within a tradition only to make progress when introduced to direct pointing. The fact that you've come over from RT, where Ciaran has been very vocal about his desire for an "industrialized" approach towards awakening, his dislike of meditation or any other practice beyond direct pointing, and his efforts to spread the word about RT on other sites, caused me to question whether you were perhaps engaged in some sort of subversive activity in an attempt to disparage meditative practice and propagate Ciarans agenda.

I don't doubt the effectiveness of direct pointing, and your desire to help others to wake up is clearly genuine and heartfelt. I'm probably projecting some of my own shit onto the whole thing so don't take this as a personal attack or anything, I was just interested in what you're doing and the way you go about it.

Peace.

RE: 40 years of Vipassana. 46 years of Soto Zen. Breaking Free.
Answer
8/31/11 12:04 AM as a reply to Tommy M.
Tommy, I appreciate. We all have our own intentions. Ciaran has big picture in mind. I don't have a clear picture. I just do it, I have no idea how in the world it happened to me. I got helped on RT, and I see that what RT does is nobble, even though many use fowl language, but it is necessary sometimes, you know how difficult to shake somebody from habitual ways. As time went by people were finding their own ways. Mine apparently is very effective, as I worked with more then 20 people by now, and successfully. I would never imagined I could do it, English is my second language, and I do not get involved into intellectual debates. But apparently my extensive experience in Vipassana and some non-duality techniques work to direct the looking. Then I do post my works, yes, how else people can find out that it is available? And I point to classical meditation experience here on this site to people who stuck in their meditation. Those who do not, and feel satisfied with their practice and life, they won't even notice what I post, and its perfectly fine. But who resonate, then I can help. So yes, I do emphasize meditation experience here, only to show that it doesn't matter how many years one sits, liberation from this illusion always available now. And sometimes those who sat a lot developed really big spiritual self that sits, so to speak. So for them also good to see - it doesn't matter how many years you sit if you still think this is what "you do". That is the intention. Tell you the truth, I don't know how long and in what format I will continue to do this. I was really busy these couple of months, I kind of abandoned my family business. I need to pick it up, and this may change things. Also I may only decide to do work with feelings, and not to do "gate work", I am not sure right now. It's all kinda rolling in it's own way, independent of "my decision", I don't really even have that anymore.

And I wish you sort your staff out, Tommy. I would suggest the same technique here: invite those strong feelings about ciaran closer, to the point of suffocation - really close. Then, burning in the whole being, ask the feeling what it has for you. You know, its not about ciaran, this feeling is impersonal, it just there - just there - so you ask the feeling what is that it has for you to show, what it is that you need to see. You ask, and then shut down your head. Do not give the thoughts tell you, start screaming in the head. You become very quite. And you listen to the answer, You will get it. It will be absolutely tailored for your embodiment. You never get resolution better then asking the feeling that is present what wisdom it has for you here and now. It can be in a different form, but mostly there will be instant clarity and relaxation in the feeling, and not temporary. There is nothing mystical-shmystical here. If you saw that self does not exist, no need for me to explain the mechanism. Just try to do it.

Hugs, E,

RE: 40 years of Vipassana. 46 years of Soto Zen. Breaking Free.
Answer
8/30/11 11:45 PM as a reply to Elena Joy.
I see this thread was moved. Ok, great. Thank you, administrator. Also this last post about Theravada teacher Shane W.I want to add here. He just wrote to me to put his name in a blog. He doesn't want to hide behind a letter. He is very interested to contact Daniel Ingram. I told him that Daniel was the only one who saw value in this method AND didn't have fear. Yes, you won't believe guys, but this actually scares teachers or heads of the spiritual groups, because it works. I have couple of long conversations with heads of spiritual groups, and while talking these teachers would really understand the compassion and the movement of sharing behind this work. As soon as we finish, I am not sure what happening, maybe, as you, Tommy, said some personal associations, or whatever, they immediately start to release statements of not accepting and finding faults, and make up stories, and get some buried findings on RT, and so on. The resistance is huge. It's really big. As I am an emotional "embodiement", I get lot's of sensations and emotions to look into, and ask too. That is how I saw that this is actually impersonal phenomena, just like thoughts. So I am going to change his name in the post today.

And here is the link to his center:
http://www.meditationlearningcenter.com/SWilson.html

RE: 40 years of Vipassana. 46 years of Soto Zen. Breaking Free.
Answer
8/31/11 12:33 AM as a reply to Elena Joy.
Hi Elena,

thanks for the posts and efforts to get this out there. thinking about it and checking out the Ruthless Truth site again, I realised that alot of my early experiences where infact Direct Pointing fuelled. A mate of mine that worked with me on the building site was into Neale Donald Walsh at the time and kept pushing me and contradicting me while we were talking about god and the like. I ended up really confronting alot of fear and broke out of the mould I had been in all my life.

It's funny isn't it, sometimes all it needs is a name, and we get attached to this label or that, when the process remains the same; waking up!

cheers

A

RE: 40 years of Vipassana. 46 years of Soto Zen. Breaking Free.
Answer
8/31/11 5:00 AM as a reply to Elena Joy.
And I wish you sort your staff out, Tommy. I would suggest the same technique here: invite those strong feelings about ciaran closer, to the point of suffocation - really close. Then, burning in the whole being, ask the feeling what it has for you. You know, its not about ciaran, this feeling is impersonal, it just there - just there - so you ask the feeling what is that it has for you to show, what it is that you need to see. You ask, and then shut down your head. Do not give the thoughts tell you, start screaming in the head. You become very quite. And you listen to the answer, You will get it. It will be absolutely tailored for your embodiment. You never get resolution better then asking the feeling that is present what wisdom it has for you here and now. It can be in a different form, but mostly there will be instant clarity and relaxation in the feeling, and not temporary. There is nothing mystical-shmystical here. If you saw that self does not exist, no need for me to explain the mechanism. Just try to do it.

Just to clarify, I have no feelings whatsoever towards Ciaran, strong or otherwise. The points I mentioned were based in fact, not opinion and each can be verified by reading Ciarans material. I was interested in whether or not you were working as part of his 'team' and pushing his philosophy at the expense of a balanced, empirically validated view of other meditative traditions. However your explanation, which I appreciate, suggests that you, like the rest of us on here, just want to show people that this is possible and show another way to go about it.

Not that it really matters, but I should also point out that my being "liberated" was confirmed on RT, and that my experience has not consisted of the illusion of a self for quite some time now. When I mention "projection" I'm talking about specific psychological/physiological patterns which are currently being dismantled as part of my current practice, I should have perhaps made this clearer.

Thanks for taking the time to reply and I wish you all the very best with whatever comes you way.

T

RE: 40 years of Vipassana. 46 years of Soto Zen. Breaking Free.
Answer
8/31/11 12:19 PM as a reply to Tommy M.
Does anyone have an idea of how RT/Direct pointing would fit in with vipassana progress of insight stuff? They could be altogether different and unrelated, but this seems unlikely as both have the stated goal of seeing through the illusion of self. As I understand, fruitions are not experienced with direct pointing. Is the insight from vipassana culminating in stream entry a strict superset of the insight from direct pointing - seeing through self plus something more? Or, otherwise, are fruitions just a big red herring?

RE: 40 years of Vipassana. 46 years of Soto Zen. Breaking Free.
Answer
9/3/11 12:21 AM as a reply to N A.
Hey, NA! I am working on seeing the correlation.I think, Daniel Ingram will be the best resource for this question since he is an "expert"in both. I can't say for sure, because with Vipassana I didn't get to anatta. I had states, but not realization. And with direct pointing I got to anatta, but I can't just disregard my vipassana experience before that. So I hope Daniel can answer your question. And I am still working on understanding how two methods relate.

RE: 40 years of Vipassana. 46 years of Soto Zen. Breaking Free.
Answer
9/3/11 1:30 AM as a reply to Elena Joy.
And Tommy, hi. I don't know how to answer you. Yes, I am part of RT, but RT is not one guy and not one way. Sorry you got this impression, but we all different, with different experiences: life and practice, different inclinations, so we all do it in the ways we are inspired. If you really read even one of my threads, you will see that i am not ciaran, but the intention is the same - point to the illusion. They call me and Ilona steel hand in velvet glove. And they are right. There is much compassion, care, sometimes feelings, but at the same time nothing will move me from that narrow place of truth - nothing - and it includes confusion, BS, ego games, and any of the variations that human mind can produce as thoughts, emotions, feelings - nothing will move me out of the place of seeing the truth.

Hugs. Elena

RE: 40 years of Vipassana. 46 years of Soto Zen. Breaking Free.
Answer
9/12/11 2:01 AM as a reply to Elena Joy.
Not RT anymore. Left. LIberation Unleashed - LU. Website in works.

Have new work done:

Serious Theravada practitioner work with Direct Pointing. Done.


Getting a little tired here. Decided to go to sit 10 day vipassana. To rest and get some equanimity. Love you all. Thank you for providing space here to share!