Centerlessness & PCE

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Tommy M, modified 9 Years ago.

Centerlessness & PCE

Posts: 1199 Join Date: 11/12/10 Recent Posts
1) Utter centerlessness: no watcher, no sense of a watcher, no subtle watcher, no possibility of a watcher. This is immediately obvious just as color is to a man with good eyesight as the old saying goes. Thus, anything and everything simply and obviously manifest just where they are. No phenomena observe any others and never did or could.

2) Utter agencylessness: meaning no agency, no sense of doing, no sense of doer, no sense that there could be any agent or doer, no way to find anything that seems to be in control at all. Whatever effort or intent or anything like that that arises does so naturally, causally, inevitably, as it always actually did. This is immediately obvious, though not always the forefront of attention.

This is a question for those who claim 4th path and who also have experience of the PCE and/or AF. Not entirely practical, but it may lead to something interesting. The quote above is from Daniel's response on another thread describing some aspects of 4th path, I thought it'd be better to bring it to a seperate thread and discuss it more rather than cluttering up the other thread.

Anyway, what's interesting to me about these parts of Daniel's descriptions is that they sound like they could also be describing a PCE even though they're clearly not. I'm fairly confident that what I attained last year was 4th path and I've also had clear, memorable enough experiences of PCE before and after that point to know what was no longer there while in one. I'll probably go around the houses in an attempt to ask this question but I'm trying to communicate it as clearly as I can.

There was something in the Hurricane Ranch tape where Tarin pointed out to Daniel about something he was "taking for granted" in a PCE and then goes on to mention the centerlessness apparent while in PCE. My understanding of the reason for Tarin mentioning this and pointing it out to Dan was that, being an Arahat, centerlessness would be a constant part of this experience and so he wouldn't notice anything different about that aspect while in PCE.

Reading Dan's descriptions and remembering that bit from the recording made me think that perhaps the PCE could be a useful diagnostic tool for those who think they've gotten 4th path?

I can understand why Daniel would have taken it for granted that the experience of a PCE would be centerless, but I can remember how incredible the absence of a center seemed in PCE before getting 4th path. Looking back to that long PCE, it doesn't make any sense for me to consider centerlessness as anything other than the way things are already, of all the amazing, wonderful things about being in PCE it definitely wasn't something noteworthy.

Is this something anyone else has noticed or gave much thought to?
John Wilde, modified 9 Years ago.

RE: Centerlessness & PCE

Posts: 501 Join Date: 10/26/10 Recent Posts
Tommy M:

There was something in the Hurricane Ranch tape where Tarin pointed out to Daniel about something he was "taking for granted" in a PCE and then goes on to mention the centerlessness apparent while in PCE. My understanding of the reason for Tarin mentioning this and pointing it out to Dan was that, being an Arahat, centerlessness would be a constant part of this experience and so he wouldn't notice anything different about that aspect while in PCE.


Exactly how the transition from one to the other is experienced after 4th Path, I don't know (because I don't know what Fourth Path experience is like... or if I do, I don't know that I do). But from my own experience there is quite a difference between centerless 'being' and apperception (which is inherently centerless).

With centerless 'being' (in my experience) there is no separation or partitioning; everything, gross or subtle, arises in place and could be described as 'self-luminous'. In apperception, a whole zone of experience just evaporates, leaving just the sensate world aware of itself in all immediacy. The two have a different flavor (for me anyway). The word 'centerless' can be applied to both, but it's a different kind of centerlessness rather than a feature they have in common.

I hope this doesn't muddy the waters. Like I said, I don't know 4th Path, but I find there's quite a marked discontinuity between any state of 'being' and a PCE.

John
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Tommy M, modified 9 Years ago.

RE: Centerlessness & PCE

Posts: 1199 Join Date: 11/12/10 Recent Posts
With centerless 'being' (in my experience) there is no separation or partitioning; everything, gross or subtle, arises in place and could be described as 'self-luminous'. In apperception, a whole zone of experience just evaporates, leaving just the sensate world aware of itself in all immediacy. The two have a different flavor (for me anyway). The word 'centerless' can be applied to both, but it's a different kind of centerlessness rather than a feature they have in common.

I hope this doesn't muddy the waters...

No, it actually clears something up in the way I've been thinking about this! Thanks. Again. emoticon
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Beoman Claudiu Dragon Emu Fire Golem, modified 9 Years ago.

RE: Centerlessness & PCE

Posts: 2198 Join Date: 10/27/10 Recent Posts
Tommy M:
Is this something anyone else has noticed or gave much thought to?

I don't have the centerlessness experience outside of a PCE, so I can't compare my own experience... but I have wondered about this.

Are there sensations which imply 'location'/'space' in your non-PCE experience? Like, when you experience affect, is there a clear sense of it being 'at my chest'? If so, does it make sense to think of each bit of affect-sensation (with a sense of 'location') as its own center point? I ask in an attempt to clarify what you mean by when you say the centerlessness is the same in a PCE and out of it... is it the same kind of centerlessness? Or am I just overloading the term (talking about 2 things and calling them both 'centerlessness')?
End in Sight, modified 9 Years ago.

RE: Centerlessness & PCE

Posts: 1251 Join Date: 7/6/11 Recent Posts
Tommy M:
Reading Dan's descriptions and remembering that bit from the recording made me think that perhaps the PCE could be a useful diagnostic tool for those who think they've gotten 4th path?

I can understand why Daniel would have taken it for granted that the experience of a PCE would be centerless, but I can remember how incredible the absence of a center seemed in PCE before getting 4th path. Looking back to that long PCE, it doesn't make any sense for me to consider centerlessness as anything other than the way things are already, of all the amazing, wonderful things about being in PCE it definitely wasn't something noteworthy.


Interesting idea.

No concrete thoughts, but, is it possible that your pre-4th PCEs and post-4th PCEs would have different noteworthy features just because you had become better acquainted with that mode of experience?
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D Z, modified 9 Years ago.

RE: Centerlessness & PCE

Posts: 346 Join Date: 9/18/11 Recent Posts
Tommy M:

Is this something anyone else has noticed or gave much thought to?


I had a possible 4th path type experience resulting in a loss of agency and centrelessness right after a big PCE.

At the time my practice is more Actualist style than noting, so for a little while I thought that the experience was some sort of early virtual freedom because of centrelessness and a lack of agency. But noticed that affect still arose and the sensory clarity wasn't there to the same extent.

Didn't realize that 4th path had a loss of a sense of agency. So I figured that it was some other realization altogether, and lost faith in any type of maps. But from the looks of things, it now seems like just a continuation of the progress of insight.