my thoughts on actual freedom and the dho

thumbnail
tarin greco, modified 9 Years ago.

my thoughts on actual freedom and the dho

Posts: 658 Join Date: 5/14/09 Recent Posts
there has been, over the past two years on the dho, far more than merely the asking of questions about the relations between the actualism method and practices found in buddhism, or complaints about actualism's influence on a supposedly-buddhist online community; there have also been individual, independent investigations into the practices themselves, enabling understandings of possible relations, and there have also been skilful adapations and uses of whatever resources have happened to exist in order to further practical inquiries and develop their results. this has been very much in the spirit of the dho's stated purposes.

yet during this time, no consensus has been reached on the topic of actualism's relation to buddhism. this is immediately understandable: there are numerous differing yet each strongly-justified ways of reading buddhism's foundational discourses. there are even numerous ways of valuing and validating readings of buddhism that don't make use of those foundational texts or which use them to demonstrate the texts' shortcomings. these differing readings and purposes make cooperative comparison difficult, because differing assumptions and divergent emphases continually arise. but the difficulty in agreeing on the meaning of buddhist texts is not the only reason no consensus has been reached. for as precisely delineated and clear as the founder of actualism has attempted to make his presentation of it, readers have still come away with many varieties of ideas. to entirely attribute this diversity to 'imaginings' or 'distortions' or 'careless reading' on the parts of various readers would be to overlook a contributing circumstance not addressed by that attribution: that idiosyncratic readings are produced by idiosyncratic individuals, with idiosyncratic faculties of memory and language, and so, to a notable extent, diversity is inevitable. differing readings and understandings can result in opposition, however, and in this way can cause purposes to cross, which may preclude consensus. a lack of consensus, though, need not necessarily have a detrimental effect on the individual practices reported to, and informing discussions at, the dho community. it has seemed to me, rather, that the plurality of understandings which have been put forth has introduced elements and emphases which have very likely fostered these individual practices, aiming them towards greater goals. this too seems to have been in keeping with the dho's purpose.

however, the endorsement of this plurality is not everybody's purpose, nor is it compatible with everybody's purpose. it is not the purpose of the actual freedom trust, for example, to have practitioners of the actualism method simultaneously experimenting with buddhist methods. this is understandable, for they hold that the aims of actualism are entirely inconsistent with and unsupported by whatever can be gained from practising buddhist methods. on the other hand, i am not convinced of this, for i have seen, for quite a while, quite a few buddhist practitioners make further advances in their practices aided by the actualism method, and also have seen quite a few practitioners of the actualism method enabled to apply it more fully by having made progress in buddhist meditation.. and so i have valued the confluences and cross-pollinations that have occurred on the dho these past two years.

owing to this, i have also been attentive to the possibility that buddhist practices, when guided by the pce, may produce similar or identical types of results as those produced by the actualism method. the claims of accomplishment made by other participants here are strong evidence for the case. i cannot also but have noted, during this time, strong resemblances between many of the things other practitioners here, and elsewhere, have said of their practices, results, and reflections and the practices, results, and reflections that i have known. further, i have observed, in person, the conduct of several other practitioners, and have noted strong consistencies between their conduct and what they have said about their practices, results, and reflections. i have taken these similarities to be significantly indicative of the likelihood that they and i have achieved similar or identical types of accomplishments.

the progenitor of the actualism method has informed me that i am mistaken about this, however; he has stated that, of the practitioners on the dho i have indicated to him as having possibly become actually free, several have certainly not done so, despite my impressions. further, he has stated that i, at my current stage of actualism development (being only 'newly-free of the instinctual passions'), cannot gauge whether another person's condition is that of an actual freedom or not... not even from extensive direct contact and conversation. evidently, then, i have no reliable way of recognising an actually free person at all. essentially, what this means is that the criteria which i've so far used to determine what an actual freedom is, is actually invalid for the purpose.

this invalidity raises two questions interesting to me: firstly, about my suitability for facilitating or guiding practitioners of the actualism method when i cannot tell whether or not they actually achieve its purpose; and secondly, about the suitability of my making a claim to a condition which i cannot recognise for myself.

the answer to the first question is complex, but put concisely involves perhaps not guiding practitioners of the method who seek guidance with any authority, not even that of technical expertise; for anything i ever knew, i knew not as fundamentally correct knowledge but simply that it happened to work to know it.

the answer to the second question is simple: i do not find it suitable for me to make a claim of a condition which i cannot recognise. for this reason, i am relinquishing any claim of an actual freedom, whether on my behalf or the behalf of any other.

this is not to say that i am renouncing my claim of being free of malice and sorrow (which is what all this has been about for me anyway); i am not. what i am indicating is that i no longer have sufficient confidence that what i mean by this claim and what i find it to entail and imply is similar enough to what richard means and what that entails and implies to state any kind of equivalence. accordingly, i no longer find it suitable to use the terms that richard has put to his experiences and observations to describe my experiences or observations. without doing so, however, i find that i cannot participate very meaningfully in the conversations concerning actual freedom (which is essentially whatever richard says it is); as i cannot be sufficiently certain that what i have in mind is closely coherent with what richard does, i rarely find it purposeful to present my thoughts on these topics. conversely, it seems more appropriate for me to retire from any statement or claim of authority or authoritative understanding on these matters, so that it is understood that any further thoughts i may present on an actual freedom and related topics are to be understood in light of this retirement.

so that there is no unnecessary confusion, i have written to the af trust suggesting that my announcement be removed from their website's 'annoucements' page. i previously renamed the 'actualism/actual freedom' forum category here, which i have been responsible for moderating, 'practices inspired by actualism', and so opened it up to discussion on the buddhist-actualist hybrid practices that have been innovated by dho participants. not only did this bring the category more in line with a use that dho forum participants have tended towards anyway, but it also spared moderators much of the task of keeping the category focused on discussion of the practice of the actualism method. further, as the renamed category is subtitled 'but not necessarily either approved or endorsed by the actual freedom trust', the category's discussions can be considered independently of the actual freedom trust and their statements, and as such, is now able to include a greater variety of approaches to practice than is directly conducive to retaining the methodological integrity insisted on by the af trust.. and, for that matter, is able to do so without relying on the authority of an actually free person to oversee the discussion (for example, to determine for anyone else whether or not the practices they are considering will lead them to their desired results).

i look forward to continuing to see what we all continue to come up with.

tarin
thumbnail
Yadid dee, modified 9 Years ago.

RE: my thoughts on actual freedom and the dho

Posts: 258 Join Date: 9/11/09 Recent Posts
So, basically, Richard said you're wrong and that you cannot tell whether someone is AF or not, and so you will stop using this terminology ?

But being free from malice and sorrow (The Mental Defilements), you are sure about?
thumbnail
tarin greco, modified 9 Years ago.

RE: my thoughts on actual freedom and the dho

Posts: 658 Join Date: 5/14/09 Recent Posts
Yadid dee:
So, basically, Richard said you're wrong and that you cannot tell whether someone is AF or not, and so you will stop using this terminology ?

But being free from malice and sorrow (The Mental Defilements), you are sure about?

it's all up there in my original post, but short answers are yes (richard has told me that my assessments are not reliable; i will no longer make assessments dependent on terms he has defined) and yes (all that has changed is i no longer have grounds for determining how to relate my experiences or observations to those assessments).


Yadid dee:

Richard didn't interact with those people Tarin thought had attained AF, before concluding they didn't, right ?
So he was going by what Richard heard Tarin say about what they told him.

and going by things those people have written publicly.

*

regarding behind the scenes activity concerning AF: no idea.

*

Bruno Loff:
Has Richard been verbally clear about what is the difference between AF1 (newly-freed from instinctual passions) and AF2 (after which you should be able to recognize AF(1?2?) ) ?

dunno.
Aman A., modified 9 Years ago.

RE: my thoughts on actual freedom and the dho

Posts: 793 Join Date: 5/24/10 Recent Posts
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/actualfreedom/message/10573

As per the above message from Richard, there was another step that Vineeto had to take to make it 'fully here in this actual world' or to gain "meaning-of-life" actual freedom. That means that there is just Richard and Vineeto who have made it fully to the actual world.
thumbnail
Bruno Loff, modified 9 Years ago.

RE: my thoughts on actual freedom and the dho

Posts: 1094 Join Date: 8/30/09 Recent Posts
tarin greco:
the progenitor of the actualism method has informed me that i am mistaken about this, however; he has stated that, of the practitioners on the dho i have indicated to him as having possibly become actually free, several have certainly not done so, despite my impressions. further, he has stated that i, at my current stage of actualism development (being only 'newly-free of the instinctual passions'), cannot gauge whether another person's condition is that of an actual freedom or not... not even from extensive direct contact and conversation. evidently, then, i have no reliable way of recognising an actually free person at all. essentially, what this means is that the criteria which i've so far used to determine what an actual freedom is, is actually invalid for the purpose.


Has Richard been verbally clear about what is the difference between AF1 (newly-freed from instinctual passions) and AF2 (after which you should be able to recognize AF(1?2?) ) ?

I thought it was just the "dust-on-the-lens" thing? (actually vineto's description of moving from AF1 to AF2 seems to suggest this)
Aman A., modified 9 Years ago.

RE: my thoughts on actual freedom and the dho

Posts: 793 Join Date: 5/24/10 Recent Posts
Bruno Loff:
I thought it was just the "dust-on-the-lens" thing? (actually vineto's description of moving from AF1 to AF2 seems to suggest this)


Vineeto 'interacted' intensively with Richard for 40 days. I don't think dust on the lens would require that much time to be removed.
thumbnail
Yadid dee, modified 9 Years ago.

RE: my thoughts on actual freedom and the dho

Posts: 258 Join Date: 9/11/09 Recent Posts
Richard didn't interact with those people Tarin thought had attained AF, before concluding they didn't, right ?
So he was going by what Richard heard Tarin say about what they told him.
Aman A., modified 9 Years ago.

RE: my thoughts on actual freedom and the dho

Posts: 793 Join Date: 5/24/10 Recent Posts
Yadid dee:
Richard didn't interact with those people Tarin thought had attained AF, before concluding they didn't, right ?
So he was going by what Richard heard Tarin say about what they told him.


I don't know if they did interact or not. I think there is a lot of behind-the-scene activity that goes on about AF.
thumbnail
Yadid dee, modified 9 Years ago.

RE: my thoughts on actual freedom and the dho

Posts: 258 Join Date: 9/11/09 Recent Posts
Aman A.:


I don't know if they did interact or not. I think there is a lot of behind-the-scene activity that goes on about AF.


Behind-the-scene meaning interactions that go on outside this forum, about AF and other things, I agree.

Seeing that the most important thing (to me) is the condition of the permanent end of afflictions, I don't think Tarin's post changes much about that, more about the background baggage on the way there.
thumbnail
Yadid dee, modified 9 Years ago.

RE: my thoughts on actual freedom and the dho

Posts: 258 Join Date: 9/11/09 Recent Posts
John Wilde:

You guys have no idea who/what you're dealing with here.

John


Could you elaborate please, that phrase is a bit vague to understand.
thumbnail
katy steger, modified 9 Years ago.

RE: my thoughts on actual freedom and the dho

Posts: 1741 Join Date: 10/1/11 Recent Posts
Hi John:
The carefully constructed and maintained public facade of AF gives few clues as to how bizarre and ludicrous things can be behind the scenes.
The risk of public facade diverging with private actuality (e.g., (offline)) exists anywhere, including here.

The risks of behind-the-scenes communications in a forum like the DhO are:
[indent]- collusion of delusion (e.g., two or more opaque writers chat/skype privately and agree to agree on their language and sustain the obfuscation by tag-teaming and re-inforcing their agreement in the public forum which...

- ...promotes optative guru-ism: "you won't understand until you get there, therefore there is no need (for us) to explain or support (our) words" wherein the public participant has the option to ask questions and be ignorantly hushed/invited offline or the option to play along with the blind "believe me (us)/you don't understand" politics (anthropologically, this political organization is a kinship hierarchy common to organized religion, which in the DhO offline kinship may impute online teachers), which

- misleds/delays seekers from their simple, straight-forward, path of autonomy (essentially, an erosion of personal obstacles and their re-generation)[/indent]

Inherent to autonomy-seeking (aka: seeking nibbana) are admittedly obscurations and fetters, and these difficulties are often expressed in some Buddhist traditions vcia the Insight Stages of suffering 5-10 (often called in the DhO "the Dark Night", whereby MCTB borrows from the Christian carmelite John of the Cross, deemed a Christian saint by his community).

Anyone taking up the role of an enlightened teacher (or allowing such a role to be imputed) bears the responsibility of being clear and publicaly transparent (not privately coordinating) with their words. This responsibility occurs, because autonomy-seekers are quite vulnerable to being (mis)led away from their simple autonomy.
Aman A., modified 9 Years ago.

RE: my thoughts on actual freedom and the dho

Posts: 793 Join Date: 5/24/10 Recent Posts
John Wilde:
However, it didn't take as long as Richard expected. A woman (whom I'll call "P") was soon declared (by Richard) to be the first to have "come to completion", a mere couple of months after her initial AF event.

But then, a while later, when "P" had moved away with her husband, Vineeto was declared to be ... you guessed it ... the first to have "come to completion".

Other ways of phrasing this: she had "become the universe". Alternatively: she had "become Richard".

You guys have no idea who/what you're dealing with here.

John


Where was it declared that "P" had come to completion? As far as I'm aware, it was only declared that she had become actually free.

If "P" has moved away with her husband, is the MSV Actualis still in the pipeline as I think it was mostly P's husband who has deep pockets and was financing AF a lot?

How do you have an idea that who we are dealing with here? Have you met Richard in person?
Omega Point, modified 8 Years ago.

RE: my thoughts on actual freedom and the dho

Posts: 39 Join Date: 7/14/12 Recent Posts
Though I have not met Richard, one can gather some points of data concerning his logical faculties. His explanation of him coming to the conclusion that everything is physical is the equivalent of irrationality. Further to claim physicality at all is rather silly, I am a trained physicist and and can tell you right now there isn't a single physicist in the whole world who could show you an iota of matter. He claims to be actually free, I claim he is free of coherent ontology.
End in Sight, modified 9 Years ago.

RE: my thoughts on actual freedom and the dho

Posts: 1251 Join Date: 7/6/11 Recent Posts
John Wilde:
It took Richard 30 months. When other people became AF in late 2009 and early 2010, it was assumed that it might take a while for them to attain fully-fledged AF. However, it didn't take as long as Richard expected. A woman was soon declared (by Richard) to be the first to have "come to completion", a mere couple of months after attaining AF. But a while later, when this woman had moved away with her husband, another woman (Vineeto) was declared to be ... you guessed it ...the first to have "come to completion".


If this is true, it would shed light on something that came up in a conversation between us previously (the claim that one can enter or exit conditions such as in-control VF or out-from-control VF, implying that they are not permanent developmental attainments). If what you say is true, it seems that claims about who attained but subsequently exited some attainment should be discounted.
thumbnail
Beoman Claudiu Dragon Emu Fire Golem, modified 9 Years ago.

RE: my thoughts on actual freedom and the dho

Posts: 2198 Join Date: 10/27/10 Recent Posts
John Wilde:
This was also described as: she had "become the universe" or "become Richard".

Could you provide links to these descriptions? I don't keep up with the actualfreedom yahoo group (though perhaps I should).
thumbnail
Bruno Loff, modified 9 Years ago.

RE: my thoughts on actual freedom and the dho

Posts: 1094 Join Date: 8/30/09 Recent Posts
Moved to this thread.
John Wilde, modified 9 Years ago.

RE: my thoughts on actual freedom and the dho

Posts: 501 Join Date: 10/26/10 Recent Posts
Bruno Loff:

John:
You guys have no idea who/what you're dealing with here.


It is absurd to make vague innuendos and unsupported statements, and expect (?) that we have a clear idea of what you are talking about. I would appreciate a more extensive, well-put-together account from your part, rather than this "erratic hinting" which is of help to no-one. Such as what is it exactly you know, and how exactly you have come to know what you have come to know.

You hint something shady is going on with Richard & friends, but you are starting to come off as having an agenda yourself. How is anyone to assess if your views are anything more than fluff and opinions, if you don't freely give out the factual data for everyone else to interpret?


To put together an extensive, well-documented account of all this would be a major undertaking, and would have all sorts of practical and legal ramifications that go beyond the scope of my intentions. To the extent that I have an agenda, it's this: (1) to participate in conversations about topics that interest me; (2) to make some observations about AF informed by details that few people know, with the aim of prompting people like you (people like me) not to take too much at face value.

I understand why you would ask me to - more or less - put up or shut up. But 'putting up' in the way that you desire is too much work for me, and has too many other inconveniences. It's not what I want to do with my life. On the other hand, 'shutting up' is not what I think best either. This isn't a court of law; I'm writing informally but truthfully, in accord with my own conscience.

Better this way: you're free to consider everything I write as "fluff and opinions", and I'm free to write informally but truthfully. My comments on AF are motivated by an intention to help people in the best way that I can / am prepared to do, given current constraints. As more information comes to light, the "fluff and opinions" may come to seem less 'fluffy' to you.. but only time will tell.

(Edit: Actually, in light of Tarin's recent remarks, I expect to see the DhO abandon the somewhat 'proprietary' lexicon of AF and develop its own language and culture surrounding these experiences and aspirations... which would be a good thing, IMO).

John

********* EDIT *******
In response to Tarin's request - up thread - to avoid cluttering up this thread with debate, I've deleted some earlier messages and will delete this one too, in a while. People who engaged with me might want delete their responses for the same reason. We can take that conversation elsewhere, if there's anything left to be said...
*************************
thumbnail
tarin greco, modified 9 Years ago.

RE: my thoughts on actual freedom and the dho

Posts: 658 Join Date: 5/14/09 Recent Posts
it occurs to me that the aspects of my post beginning this thread which concern the ways in which the understandings and practices of both actualism and buddhism have developed over the previous two years on the dho may only stand to be properly understood by readers who are already familiar with 1- actualism and the af trust's writings, 2- canonical buddhist texts and their practical readings, and 3- daniel ingram's book 'mastering the core teachings of the buddha', the form of insight practice taught in the mahasi sayadaw tradition(s), and the history of the dho's discussions from at least mid-2009 onwards. for this reason, i would suggest that anyone who wishes to reply and contribute to this discussion yet is not informed by this background and context first endeavour to learn about the three things listed, and learn them well[1], so that any resulting discussion about these aspects which may ensue stays on-topic and high-level. this can be easily accomplished by:

1
(a) reading (at least the articles in richard's section of) the af trust website (for an understanding of what actual freedom and the path towards it are authoritatively described to be) and
(b) putting the actualism method into practice (for an understanding of how the experience of an actual freedom and/or the path towards it accord with the authoritative accounts);

2
(a) reading the canonical buddhist discourses,
(b) reading modern scholarship done on the those discourses (for various senses of which things can and cannot be known about those discourses),
(c) reading posts and articles written by practitioners who have declared that their models of practice and fruits reflect the contents of those early buddhist discourses, and have provided sources and citations (for various senses of what may be practised and achieved in accordance with the contents of those early discourses), and
(d) putting into practice instructions derived from a practical reading of those discourses; and

3
(a) reading MCTB,
(b) reading 'practical insight meditation' (both parts 1 and 2) by mahasi sayadaw and performing the exercises therein prescribed, and
(c) trawling thoroughly through the dho archives for discussions beginning in 2009 which concern the topics of actualism/actual freedom, differing models of practice and enlightenment, and realisations and development. many threads will contain replies seemingly posted by 'wet paint' (which indicates that the thread existed on and was moved over from the previous dho forum, which lived on a hosting platform called 'wet paint'); those threads are a good place to begin (or end, if you're reading in reverse chronology).

meanwhile, would all speculators and debaters on other matters please take those discussions elsewhere - at least, to a different thread? thank you.

tarin

[1] take your time with the research, as this thread isn't going anywhere, and threads in the 'dharma battleground' category (in which this thread is located, 'recent post' readers) have tended to be resurrected from the back pages again and again.
thumbnail
Beoman Claudiu Dragon Emu Fire Golem, modified 9 Years ago.

RE: my thoughts on actual freedom and the dho

Posts: 2198 Join Date: 10/27/10 Recent Posts
tarin greco:
what i am indicating is that i no longer have sufficient confidence that what i mean by this claim and what i find it to entail and imply is similar enough to what richard means and what that entails and implies to state any kind of equivalence.
...
so that there is no unnecessary confusion, i have written to the af trust suggesting that my announcement be removed from their website's 'annoucements' page.

I am a bit puzzled. Given that the announcement was on the af trust site, I assume that Richard verified that you had attained an actual freedom, if only 'newly free' and not the 'meaning-of-life' stage. Thus, your experience must match that stage of actualist development, at least according to Richard - and I assume he considers himself capable of judging who is free or not[1]. For what purpose are you relinquishing your claim to (at least a certain stage of) actual freedom? Is it a matter of erring on the side of safety?

[1] or at least, we are defining the attainments based on what he says they are, and (I assume) he said you were actually free of the instinctual passions
thumbnail
tarin greco, modified 9 Years ago.

RE: my thoughts on actual freedom and the dho

Posts: 658 Join Date: 5/14/09 Recent Posts
Beoman Claudiu Dragon Emu Fire Golem:
tarin greco:
what i am indicating is that i no longer have sufficient confidence that what i mean by this claim and what i find it to entail and imply is similar enough to what richard means and what that entails and implies to state any kind of equivalence.
...
so that there is no unnecessary confusion, i have written to the af trust suggesting that my announcement be removed from their website's 'annoucements' page.

I am a bit puzzled. Given that the announcement was on the af trust site, I assume that Richard verified that you had attained an actual freedom, if only 'newly free' and not the 'meaning-of-life' stage. Thus, your experience must match that stage of actualist development, at least according to Richard - and I assume he considers himself capable of judging who is free or not[1]. For what purpose are you relinquishing your claim to (at least a certain stage of) actual freedom? Is it a matter of erring on the side of safety?

note that the announcements on the site are worded such that it is the individuals who have confirmed their freedom from the instinctual passions (and the directors are merely announcing their confirmations, though they are also implicitly agreeing with the announcement). regardless of what anyone else may say, i am merely withdrawing my own contribution of that confirmation for the purposes of clarity and ending obfuscating entanglements in uncertain meanings and crossed purposes.

Beoman Claudiu Dragon Emu Fire Golem:

[1] or at least, we are defining the attainments based on what he says they are ...

if you say so; i'm content to let others see to the definitions of these attainments.
thumbnail
Beoman Claudiu Dragon Emu Fire Golem, modified 9 Years ago.

RE: my thoughts on actual freedom and the dho

Posts: 2198 Join Date: 10/27/10 Recent Posts
tarin greco:
note that the announcements on the site are worded such that it is the individuals who have confirmed their freedom from the instinctual passions (and the directors are merely announcing their confirmations, though they are also implicitly agreeing with the announcement). regardless of what anyone else may say, i am merely withdrawing my own contribution of that confirmation for the purposes of clarity and ending obfuscating entanglements in uncertain meanings and crossed purposes.
Ah, ok, understood.

tarin greco:
Beoman Claudiu Dragon Emu Fire Golem:

[1] or at least, we are defining the attainments based on what he says they are ...

if you say so; i'm content to let others see to the definitions of these attainments.

I am puzzled yet again:
tarin greco:
without doing so, however, i find that i cannot participate very meaningfully in the conversations concerning actual freedom (which is essentially whatever richard says it is)

Is it what Richard says it is? Or is it up to each person to define it? Or is it the latter yet a possible definition is "whatever richard says it is"?
thumbnail
tarin greco, modified 9 Years ago.

RE: my thoughts on actual freedom and the dho

Posts: 658 Join Date: 5/14/09 Recent Posts
Beoman Claudiu Dragon Emu Fire Golem:

tarin greco:
Beoman Claudiu Dragon Emu Fire Golem:

[1] or at least, we are defining the attainments based on what he says they are ...

if you say so; i'm content to let others see to the definitions of these attainments.

I am puzzled yet again:
tarin greco:
without doing so, however, i find that i cannot participate very meaningfully in the conversations concerning actual freedom (which is essentially whatever richard says it is)

Is it what Richard says it is? Or is it up to each person to define it? Or is it the latter yet a possible definition is "whatever richard says it is"?

how about, 'it's up to each person to make sure they properly understand for themselves what richard says an actual freedom is'.
thumbnail
Beoman Claudiu Dragon Emu Fire Golem, modified 9 Years ago.

RE: my thoughts on actual freedom and the dho

Posts: 2198 Join Date: 10/27/10 Recent Posts
tarin greco:
how about, 'it's up to each person to make sure they properly understand for themselves what richard says an actual freedom is'.
ok, makes sense. that neatly resolves the increasingly-confused questions that were arising in my head.
thumbnail
josh r s, modified 9 Years ago.

RE: my thoughts on actual freedom and the dho

Posts: 337 Join Date: 9/16/11 Recent Posts
how about, 'it's up to each person to make sure they properly understand for themselves what richard says an actual freedom is'.


Could you tell us which phenomenological differences in peoples' experiences Richard has used to discount their claims to AF as being false, not the specific people but just the phenomenological issues and differences? or does he claim they are lying? or are his assertions based on the practices they used? or were the assertions made without any specific explanation?

also, I think it will be tough to make any progress in the theory until we get a definition of AF1 and AF2 are, as without any clear definition, it is a gaping hole which could easily be seen as Richard simply using his authority as founder of the AFT to discount anyone who's actions conflict with his perceived agenda.
thumbnail
tarin greco, modified 9 Years ago.

RE: my thoughts on actual freedom and the dho

Posts: 658 Join Date: 5/14/09 Recent Posts
i missed this post.

josh r s:
how about, 'it's up to each person to make sure they properly understand for themselves what richard says an actual freedom is'.

Could you tell us which phenomenological differences in peoples' experiences Richard has used to discount their claims to AF as being false, not the specific people but just the phenomenological issues and differences? or does he claim they are lying? or are his assertions based on the practices they used? or were the assertions made without any specific explanation?

richard's take on the matter can be found, neatly framed, in the latest update (addendum 7) on the actual freedom trust's website.


josh r s:

also, I think it will be tough to make any progress in the theory until we get a definition of AF1 and AF2 are, as without any clear definition, it is a gaping hole which could easily be seen as Richard simply using his authority as founder of the AFT to discount anyone who's actions conflict with his perceived agenda.

if you see the gaping hole that way, it stands little chance of being filled. it may be worth considering that language is no less malleable than a mind and its memories. good luck with your theory project.

tarin
thumbnail
Steph S, modified 9 Years ago.

RE: my thoughts on actual freedom and the dho

Posts: 662 Join Date: 3/24/10 Recent Posts
in another thread recently i told a friend, hey remember when you told me...

hey tarin, remember when you told me.... a reasonable estimate for any sort of path = 95% a solo journey, about 4% feedback from others, about 1% having a cheerleader friend

i'm hoping any backlash regarding this thread is kept to a minimum and this can be a civil discussion. each person knows their own mind and can't know the mind of another. actually free, just damned happy, over the moon. we're all smart enough to forge our way through and know what's best for ourselves.

carrying on... emoticon
Felipe Cavazos, modified 9 Years ago.

RE: my thoughts on actual freedom and the dho

Posts: 221 Join Date: 5/29/11 Recent Posts
Steph S:
in another thread recently i told a friend, hey remember when you told me...

hey tarin, remember when you told me.... a reasonable estimate for any sort of path = 95% a solo journey, about 4% feedback from others, about 1% having a cheerleader friend

i'm hoping any backlash regarding this thread is kept to a minimum and this can be a civil discussion. each person knows their own mind and can't know the mind of another. actually free, just damned happy, over the moon. we're all smart enough to forge our way through and know what's best for ourselves.

carrying on...


Maybe Tarin could put it in probabilistic terms: if there is a list of what's expected as a result of AF (as indicated in the AFT site), which of those points are fulfilled by Tarin's experience (or at least almost sure fulfilled)?. If the majority of these points seem covered, he is at least super close to being in that state named "AF", but still he can not affirm that categorically because language conserves its ambiguity.

Anyway, I'm replying this to you because it's pretty interesting how the "I" reacts with doubt after reading threads like this, even tough they are discussing semantics.

If I practice Actualism, I must look at the facts: Tarin still claims that he's free of malice and sorrow, and I am experimenting vast results with my practice each day. The feelings that come to (as) "me" are just another affective experience to investigate: in this case, my relation to authorities and to the thinking of groups like DhO.
Vas A, modified 9 Years ago.

RE: my thoughts on actual freedom and the dho

Posts: 24 Join Date: 9/8/10 Recent Posts
tarin greco:

the progenitor of the actualism method has informed me that i am mistaken about this, however; he has stated that, of the practitioners on the dho i have indicated to him as having possibly become actually free, several have certainly not done so, despite my impressions. further, he has stated that i, at my current stage of actualism development (being only 'newly-free of the instinctual passions'), cannot gauge whether another person's condition is that of an actual freedom or not... not even from extensive direct contact and conversation. evidently, then, i have no reliable way of recognising an actually free person at all. essentially, what this means is that the criteria which i've so far used to determine what an actual freedom is, is actually invalid for the purpose.
tarin


firstly, thanks for the fresh air you have given to the whole subject.

let me ask you a bold question... before you drop your ability to recognize (faultily or not) an 'actually free person', could you apply that ability one last time.. on the progenitor himself? in your extensive communication and interaction with the progenitor (of af), did you find anything puzzling that you could not account for? [this question is being asked in the light of various controversies that are occuring with new documents being circulated etc. a honest opinion, even if it is just that, will help me]. iow, freshly evaluating by your own experience, is he 'actually free' or not?
thumbnail
Nikolai ., modified 9 Years ago.

RE: my thoughts on actual freedom and the dho

Posts: 1650 Join Date: 1/23/10 Recent Posts
Excellent. I would also like to take this opportunity to state that my ongoing experience does not resembles Tarin's. I still experience certain 'shadow' experiences (formerly gross affect) as explained a number of times (not very well) by myself mostly in my practice journal at the HP.

I have had two major shifts since what I was calling MCTB 4th (which matched Daniel's recent outlining of that attainment). I believe these last two shifts were more in line with the fetter model of the pali canon suttas and am ok with letting go of the whole AF or not titles/attainments. If I am not at the stage where Tarin is (perhaps a stage right before it), I am certainly not at what Richard considers 'Newly AF'. From now on, I will avoid (which I have been doing for awhile now) any talk of being AF. I am not by the AFT definitions. I will talk from now on more from the buddhist angle that has informed my practice at the same time as AF informed practices.

Nick
End in Sight, modified 9 Years ago.

RE: my thoughts on actual freedom and the dho

Posts: 1251 Join Date: 7/6/11 Recent Posts
Nikolai .:
I believe these last two shifts were more in line with the fetter model of the pali canon suttas and am ok with letting go of the whole AF or not titles/attainments.


In many ways I regret ever talking about my experience in AFT terms, as I have never been involved in the actualist community, nor practiced actualism, nor accepted AFT dogma, nor had extensive and detailed familiarity with AFT writings (rather than a general knowledge)...and so, doing so was a kind of impulsiveness based on the fact that other models that were current in this community (MCTB's, Kenneth Folk's) were not speaking to my experience.

Sticking with Pali Buddhism would have been much more sensible given my practice and background and given the theory that makes most sense to me. So, I think I'll join you in this.
thumbnail
Tommy M, modified 9 Years ago.

RE: my thoughts on actual freedom and the dho

Posts: 1199 Join Date: 11/12/10 Recent Posts
In light of my recent change in approach, this post is really refreshing and encouraging as it confirms that there are lots of ways to go about this stuff depending on what works for you. I think that if people can drop all the ideas about getting to this goal or that path then this whole adventure can become much more enjoyable, and when we can talk about these things in simple, straightforwards phenomenological terms without fancy labels or terminology then all the bullshit can drop away. Don't get me wrong, it's useful to a point but can become troublesome if it's given too much importance, or not understood clearly enough.

Whether Tarin or anyone else is "AF" is of no concern to me, their practical advice and the verification, via direct experience, of the information they've provided speaks for itself. Richard's got his take on what's what and so has everyone else, it's what we do as human beings, with or without affect, so it'll be good to see if dropping the AF baggage and moving on will allow people to find the way that's most effective for them to make their lives happier and less stressful.

In the words of Al Crowley, do what thou wilt shall be the whole of the law.

The door's wide open, anyone fancy exploring outside? emoticon
John Wilde, modified 9 Years ago.

RE: my thoughts on actual freedom and the dho

Posts: 501 Join Date: 10/26/10 Recent Posts
Tommy M:
In light of my recent change in approach, this post is really refreshing and encouraging as it confirms that there are lots of ways to go about this stuff depending on what works for you. I think that if people can drop all the ideas about getting to this goal or that path then this whole adventure can become much more enjoyable, and when we can talk about these things in simple, straightforwards phenomenological terms without fancy labels or terminology then all the bullshit can drop away. Don't get me wrong, it's useful to a point but can become troublesome if it's given too much importance, or not understood clearly enough.

Whether Tarin or anyone else is "AF" is of no concern to me, their practical advice and the verification, via direct experience, of the information they've provided speaks for itself. Richard's got his take on what's what and so has everyone else, it's what we do as human beings, with or without affect, so it'll be good to see if dropping the AF baggage and moving on will allow people to find the way that's most effective for them to make their lives happier and less stressful.


Yay.
thumbnail
Beoman Claudiu Dragon Emu Fire Golem, modified 9 Years ago.

RE: my thoughts on actual freedom and the dho

Posts: 2198 Join Date: 10/27/10 Recent Posts
Nikolai .:
I have had two major shifts since what I was calling MCTB 4th (which matched Daniel's recent outlining of that attainment).

Did it match it precisely? Daniel said:
Daniel Ingram:
To whoever is speculating about the thing fading or center reestablishing itself or subtle center point stuff or anything like that: simply no, not at all, not in 9 years, never, not even a little. There is this diffuse, open field of stuff doing its thing.

And, if I recall correctly, during the 'friendly chat' podcast with Owen that you both agreed that the center-point would re-arise sometimes. (Not sure of the exact time in the podcast or the precise wording - I will re-listen to it and point it out if necessary.)
thumbnail
Nikolai ., modified 9 Years ago.

RE: my thoughts on actual freedom and the dho

Posts: 1650 Join Date: 1/23/10 Recent Posts
Beoman Claudiu Dragon Emu Fire Golem:
Nikolai .:
I have had two major shifts since what I was calling MCTB 4th (which matched Daniel's recent outlining of that attainment).

Did it match it precisely? Daniel said:
Daniel Ingram:
To whoever is speculating about the thing fading or center reestablishing itself or subtle center point stuff or anything like that: simply no, not at all, not in 9 years, never, not even a little. There is this diffuse, open field of stuff doing its thing.

And, if I recall correctly, during the 'friendly chat' podcast with Owen that you both agreed that the center-point would re-arise sometimes. (Not sure of the exact time in the podcast or the precise wording - I will re-listen to it and point it out if necessary.)


The experience that was experienced as a 'centrepoint' for most of my life lost that status of 'centrepoint' in July 2010 but the sensations that would be read as a 'centrepoint' were still occasionally read as the 'watcher' (which was seen to be a cluster of sensations with a mental overlay), as mentioned by End in the quote below, but without the 'centrepoint' status. Does that make sense?

There was no 're-establishing' of the 'centrepoint' as a status nor it fading in and out, or being sublte this or that. It lost the status of 'centrepoint' for ever, YET the sensations that implied 'centrepoint' previous to this shift would still be experienced from time to time as a transient impersonal 'selfing' experience sans the mental status of 'centrepoint'.

From what I remember, I think any sort of reference to a centre point for me usually was connected to the area in the head more than any other area. For my ongoing experience during pre- (what I consider) 4th path shift, that was the centre point of the selfing experience. Post shift, those sensations in the middle of the head occasionally would arise to be read as a mentally felt 'self' or 'me-ness' experience from time to time but appear extremely transient and very sticky-free and had lost all sense of being a 'centre'. They would arise and pass very quickly.

The sense of 'being' which became more predominant as the ongoing experience afterwards though felt quite diffuse and without a location. This took the centrepoint's place as the sort of default setting of the continuation of the 'selfing' process post shift. It was then seen to be any 'mood' that was arising, one and the same. Any notion of it being the agent went when the sense of centrepoint collapsed and ceased having 'status' in the mind as a 'centrepoint'.

Post shift, there was the immediate recognition that any arising of a felt 'me-ness' located as a cluster of sensations, was just that, a cluster of sensations with a mental overlay. Until I owned up to that sticky-free and centreless mental overlay as being the continuation of a 'selfing' process that was still inherently unsatisfactory, everything was pretty much how Daniel describes.

End asked:
Would you consider your 4th path experience in context of this state well characterized by a statement such as "if there is an experience of something that would be described as a super-pervading watcher, it is immediately known to be an experience that is empty of being a watcher, self, subject, witness, etc. despite the description being apt?"

(In other words, "watcher" would just be a label for some sensation or sensations that would previously have been called a watcher but are now just sensations, despite it being clear that "watcher" captures how those sensations would previously have been understood as well as describes them in some way currently.)


to which Daniel answered;
precisely.


Edited a few times for flow.
thumbnail
Jeff Grove, modified 9 Years ago.

RE: my thoughts on actual freedom and the dho

Posts: 310 Join Date: 8/24/09 Recent Posts
HAIETMOBA and the sweet spot are still excellent tools for creating conditions favorable to insight especially DO.
thumbnail
tarin greco, modified 9 Years ago.

RE: my thoughts on actual freedom and the dho

Posts: 658 Join Date: 5/14/09 Recent Posts
Vas A:
tarin greco:

the progenitor of the actualism method has informed me that i am mistaken about this, however; he has stated that, of the practitioners on the dho i have indicated to him as having possibly become actually free, several have certainly not done so, despite my impressions. further, he has stated that i, at my current stage of actualism development (being only 'newly-free of the instinctual passions'), cannot gauge whether another person's condition is that of an actual freedom or not... not even from extensive direct contact and conversation. evidently, then, i have no reliable way of recognising an actually free person at all. essentially, what this means is that the criteria which i've so far used to determine what an actual freedom is, is actually invalid for the purpose.
tarin


firstly, thanks for the fresh air you have given to the whole subject.

you're welcome.


Vas A:

let me ask you a bold question... before you drop your ability to recognize (faultily or not) an 'actually free person',

while i appreciate the humour, i should make this clear: it's not that i dropped the ability, but rather that i realised that i could have no such ability to begin with.


Vas A:

could you apply that ability one last time.. on the progenitor himself?

while i'll do my best to accommodate what i understand you to be seeking by your request, bear in mind that my reply cannot actually answer the question as you have asked it (i have explained why above).


Vas A:

in your extensive communication and interaction with the progenitor (of af), did you find anything puzzling that you could not account for? [this question is being asked in the light of various controversies that are occuring with new documents being circulated etc. a honest opinion, even if it is just that, will help me].

no.. but i am also not in the habit of attempting to interpret every little detail in another person's speech or actions (i have met too many different people and lived in too many different cultures to regard that as a skilful endeavour), and so i would have had to have witnessed a transgression on his part against either my or another person's well-being for me to have had something to attempt to account for.. and i saw no such thing (in the week or so that i spent with him, on two separate occasions).


Vas A:

iow, freshly evaluating by your own experience, is he 'actually free' or not?

you may have missed one of the points of my original post - i actually don't know what an actual freedom is (that is, i am not being evasive or engaging in wordplay).

tarin
Aman A., modified 9 Years ago.

RE: my thoughts on actual freedom and the dho

Posts: 793 Join Date: 5/24/10 Recent Posts
tarin greco:

no.. but i am also not in the habit of attempting to interpret every little detail in another person's speech or actions (i have met too many different people and lived in too many different cultures to regard that as a skilful endeavour), and so i would have had to have witnessed a transgression on his part against either my or another person's well-being for me to have had something to attempt to account for.. and i saw no such thing (in the week or so that i spent with him, on two separate occasions).


Did you ask one question that was critical of AF?
thumbnail
tarin greco, modified 9 Years ago.

RE: my thoughts on actual freedom and the dho

Posts: 658 Join Date: 5/14/09 Recent Posts
Aman A.:
tarin greco:

no.. but i am also not in the habit of attempting to interpret every little detail in another person's speech or actions (i have met too many different people and lived in too many different cultures to regard that as a skilful endeavour), and so i would have had to have witnessed a transgression on his part against either my or another person's well-being for me to have had something to attempt to account for.. and i saw no such thing (in the week or so that i spent with him, on two separate occasions).


Did you ask one question that was critical of AF?

plenty.
thumbnail
Daniel Johnson, modified 9 Years ago.

RE: my thoughts on actual freedom and the dho

Posts: 401 Join Date: 12/16/09 Recent Posts
Vas A:

iow, freshly evaluating by your own experience, is he 'actually free' or not?

tarin:
you may have missed one of the points of my original post - i actually don't know what an actual freedom is (that is, i am not being evasive or engaging in wordplay).


By your own experience, tarin, do you think he is free of malice and sorrow? Do you think you are able to asses if other people are free of malice and sorrow (in the sense that you mean by "free of malice and sorrow")?
thumbnail
tarin greco, modified 9 Years ago.

RE: my thoughts on actual freedom and the dho

Posts: 658 Join Date: 5/14/09 Recent Posts
Daniel Johnson:
Vas A:

iow, freshly evaluating by your own experience, is he 'actually free' or not?

tarin:
you may have missed one of the points of my original post - i actually don't know what an actual freedom is (that is, i am not being evasive or engaging in wordplay).


By your own experience, tarin, do you think he is free of malice and sorrow? Do you think you are able to asses if other people are free of malice and sorrow (in the sense that you mean by "free of malice and sorrow")?

in none of my interactions with richard did i think, or wonder if, richard was being malicious or sorrowful.

i don't think i am able to assess with any certainty if other people are free of malice and sorrow; as working hypotheses[1], however, tentative assessments can be made and updated as their conditions are. practically speaking, i have not found it difficult to tell that notable (and vastly beneficial) changes have come over people i have known - even those in whom i had noted other notable (and vastly beneficial) changes previously - and my thoughts there have not yet been contradicted.

tarin

[1] where i use 'hypothesis' to mean 'an interpretation of a practical situation or condition taken as the ground for action'. (merriam-webster)
Vas A, modified 9 Years ago.

RE: my thoughts on actual freedom and the dho

Posts: 24 Join Date: 9/8/10 Recent Posts
tarin greco:
Daniel Johnson:
Vas A:

iow, freshly evaluating by your own experience, is he 'actually free' or not?

tarin:
you may have missed one of the points of my original post - i actually don't know what an actual freedom is (that is, i am not being evasive or engaging in wordplay).


By your own experience, tarin, do you think he is free of malice and sorrow? Do you think you are able to asses if other people are free of malice and sorrow (in the sense that you mean by "free of malice and sorrow")?

in none of my interactions with richard did i think, or wonder if, richard was being malicious or sorrowful.



that is definitely helpful (not sure in what ways). but could you answer a small follow up query to make it more helpful - while during that time where you did not think or wonder if richard was being malicious or sorrowful, did you (at least as a working hypothesis) encounter in you or in some others (maybe a stranger) traces of 'malice or sorrow' ? if the reason i am asking is not clear, here it is: it is to ascertain if you had not moved to a total state of positiveness where you could not recognize the opposite (i am reminded of this story of yudhistara/duryodhana from indian epic mahabharata: where both were asked to find a bad person they encounter; the latter could not because everybody he encountered looked bad; and the former could not, too.. because everybody he encountered had some good in him).


tarin greco:

i don't think i am able to assess with any certainty if other people are free of malice and sorrow; as working hypotheses[1], however, tentative assessments can be made and updated as their conditions are. practically speaking, i have not found it difficult to tell that notable (and vastly beneficial) changes have come over people i have known - even those in whom i had noted other notable (and vastly beneficial) changes previously - and my thoughts there have not yet been contradicted.

tarin

[1] where i use 'hypothesis' to mean 'an interpretation of a practical situation or condition taken as the ground for action'. (merriam-webster)
thumbnail
Beoman Claudiu Dragon Emu Fire Golem, modified 9 Years ago.

RE: my thoughts on actual freedom and the dho

Posts: 2198 Join Date: 10/27/10 Recent Posts
tarin greco:
you may have missed one of the points of my original post - i actually don't know what an actual freedom is (that is, i am not being evasive or engaging in wordplay).

Have you asked Richard what an actual freedom is? Or told him what you think an actual freedom is and asked him to clarify what differences he has in mind? Or told him the reasons you had for considering a person actually free, and asked him to give the reasons he had for considering that person to not be actually free? If not, do you have any interest in doing so? If not, why not?
thumbnail
tarin greco, modified 9 Years ago.

RE: my thoughts on actual freedom and the dho

Posts: 658 Join Date: 5/14/09 Recent Posts
Beoman Claudiu Dragon Emu Fire Golem:
tarin greco:
you may have missed one of the points of my original post - i actually don't know what an actual freedom is (that is, i am not being evasive or engaging in wordplay).

Have you asked Richard what an actual freedom is? Or told him what you think an actual freedom is and asked him to clarify what differences he has in mind? Or told him the reasons you had for considering a person actually free, and asked him to give the reasons he had for considering that person to not be actually free? If not, do you have any interest in doing so? If not, why not?

not recently;
not recently (since understanding that there has been a difference);
no (owing to the course of correspondence, there was no point);
not at this time, as i currently have too much else to attend to to either initiate or be drawn into further correspondence on this matter, particularly as such correspondence tends to be very lengthy and very, very time-consuming.. suffice it to say that there are more (new) things under the sun than whether two people agree with one another (and this sun will not last forever..).
Vas A, modified 9 Years ago.

RE: my thoughts on actual freedom and the dho

Posts: 24 Join Date: 9/8/10 Recent Posts
tarin greco:
Beoman Claudiu Dragon Emu Fire Golem:
tarin greco:
you may have missed one of the points of my original post - i actually don't know what an actual freedom is (that is, i am not being evasive or engaging in wordplay).

Have you asked Richard what an actual freedom is? Or told him what you think an actual freedom is and asked him to clarify what differences he has in mind? Or told him the reasons you had for considering a person actually free, and asked him to give the reasons he had for considering that person to not be actually free? If not, do you have any interest in doing so? If not, why not?

not recently;
not recently (since understanding that there has been a difference);
no (owing to the course of correspondence, there was no point);
not at this time, as i currently have too much else to attend to to either initiate or be drawn into further correspondence on this matter, particularly as such correspondence tends to be very lengthy and very, very time-consuming.. suffice it to say that there are more (new) things under the sun than whether two people agree with one another (and this sun will not last forever..).


well said... and many of us do not have the time to meticulously sort out the whole thing (not sure if it is even fruitful to do so) though some of the things are nebulous for us (and we prefer it to be sorted out). if at any point you would have the time to explicate the new found wisdom/experience that you encountered in a language that is not restricted by the existing baseline, it would help some of us who think there is something in this but not quite sure what that something is.
thumbnail
tarin greco, modified 9 Years ago.

RE: my thoughts on actual freedom and the dho

Posts: 658 Join Date: 5/14/09 Recent Posts
Vas A:
tarin greco:
Beoman Claudiu Dragon Emu Fire Golem:
tarin greco:
you may have missed one of the points of my original post - i actually don't know what an actual freedom is (that is, i am not being evasive or engaging in wordplay).

Have you asked Richard what an actual freedom is? Or told him what you think an actual freedom is and asked him to clarify what differences he has in mind? Or told him the reasons you had for considering a person actually free, and asked him to give the reasons he had for considering that person to not be actually free? If not, do you have any interest in doing so? If not, why not?

not recently;
not recently (since understanding that there has been a difference);
no (owing to the course of correspondence, there was no point);
not at this time, as i currently have too much else to attend to to either initiate or be drawn into further correspondence on this matter, particularly as such correspondence tends to be very lengthy and very, very time-consuming.. suffice it to say that there are more (new) things under the sun than whether two people agree with one another (and this sun will not last forever..).


well said... and many of us do not have the time to meticulously sort out the whole thing (not sure if it is even fruitful to do so) though some of the things are nebulous for us (and we prefer it to be sorted out). if at any point you would have the time to explicate the new found wisdom/experience that you encountered in a language that is not restricted by the existing baseline, it would help some of us who think there is something in this but not quite sure what that something is.

encountered when?
Vas A, modified 9 Years ago.

RE: my thoughts on actual freedom and the dho

Posts: 24 Join Date: 9/8/10 Recent Posts
tarin greco:
Vas A:
tarin greco:
Beoman Claudiu Dragon Emu Fire Golem:
tarin greco:
you may have missed one of the points of my original post - i actually don't know what an actual freedom is (that is, i am not being evasive or engaging in wordplay).

Have you asked Richard what an actual freedom is? Or told him what you think an actual freedom is and asked him to clarify what differences he has in mind? Or told him the reasons you had for considering a person actually free, and asked him to give the reasons he had for considering that person to not be actually free? If not, do you have any interest in doing so? If not, why not?

not recently;
not recently (since understanding that there has been a difference);
no (owing to the course of correspondence, there was no point);
not at this time, as i currently have too much else to attend to to either initiate or be drawn into further correspondence on this matter, particularly as such correspondence tends to be very lengthy and very, very time-consuming.. suffice it to say that there are more (new) things under the sun than whether two people agree with one another (and this sun will not last forever..).


well said... and many of us do not have the time to meticulously sort out the whole thing (not sure if it is even fruitful to do so) though some of the things are nebulous for us (and we prefer it to be sorted out). if at any point you would have the time to explicate the new found wisdom/experience that you encountered in a language that is not restricted by the existing baseline, it would help some of us who think there is something in this but not quite sure what that something is.

encountered when?


that which you gained after encountering actualism.
Jasmine Marie Engler, modified 8 Years ago.

RE: my thoughts on actual freedom and the dho

Posts: 69 Join Date: 5/1/12 Recent Posts
Vas A:
tarin greco:

the progenitor of the actualism method has informed me that i am mistaken about this, however; he has stated that, of the practitioners on the dho i have indicated to him as having possibly become actually free, several have certainly not done so, despite my impressions. further, he has stated that i, at my current stage of actualism development (being only 'newly-free of the instinctual passions'), cannot gauge whether another person's condition is that of an actual freedom or not... not even from extensive direct contact and conversation. evidently, then, i have no reliable way of recognising an actually free person at all. essentially, what this means is that the criteria which i've so far used to determine what an actual freedom is, is actually invalid for the purpose.
tarin


firstly, thanks for the fresh air you have given to the whole subject.

let me ask you a bold question... before you drop your ability to recognize (faultily or not) an 'actually free person', could you apply that ability one last time.. on the progenitor himself? in your extensive communication and interaction with the progenitor (of af), did you find anything puzzling that you could not account for? [this question is being asked in the light of various controversies that are occuring with new documents being circulated etc. a honest opinion, even if it is just that, will help me]. iow, freshly evaluating by your own experience, is he 'actually free' or not?


To others who may be confused by the consistent use of this word "phenomenological", as I have been, I thought it might be useful to attach the definition found on Wikkipedia (Go Wikki! ;-) ). However, put succinctly, it appears to mean to discuss/ research everything from the perspective of one's own actual experiences (not using actual to correlate to any "af" meanings, lol!).

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Phenomenology_(philosophy)

Love and Peace!

Jazzi
thumbnail
Tommy M, modified 8 Years ago.

RE: my thoughts on actual freedom and the dho

Posts: 1199 Join Date: 11/12/10 Recent Posts
Hiya Jazzi,

Welcome to the DhO,

To others who may be confused by the consistent use of this word "phenomenological", as I have been, I thought it might be useful to attach the definition found on Wikkipedia (Go Wikki! ;-) ). However, put succinctly, it appears to mean to discuss/ research everything from the perspective of one's own actual experiences (not using actual to correlate to any "af" meanings, lol!).

Thank you for taking the time to post that link, and I'm glad your no longer confused about the words used here. I had no idea what the word meant until I started using this site either so you're not alone in your confusion, we've all been there at some point. emoticon

I've wondered whether or not it'd be helpful to create a sort of DhO glossary thread, just basic descriptions of what certain commonly used words such as "phenomenological" actually mean in plain English, maybe with some contextual examples or links to various online dictionaries?

Sometimes it's just that there's one big word that encapsulates something in a clearer way, but there's been criticism of the tendency towards an intellectual approach to discussing this stuff before on here. However, having a more empirical and phenomenological emphasis when describing your practice can make it much clearer to discern what's required to move forward.

T
Jasmine Marie Engler, modified 8 Years ago.

RE: my thoughts on actual freedom and the dho

Posts: 69 Join Date: 5/1/12 Recent Posts
Tommy M,

Thanks for this! :-) I agree with both points- coming from a medical standpoint, we are always told to 'use language that the patient will understand.' However, it is truly difficult to express oneself if one limits oneself to always calling the 'neuromagnetic pathways', the 'electrically stimulated pathways that the brain uses to communicate an action to the body'. It can get wordy and impractical- you are correct. And, in this, we have all chosen to be students; it was not a 'necessity' in the same way that a doctor's visit was. Therefore, no one truly has any responsibility to 'dumb it down' for the newbies like me. However, my limited understanding of the language (in particular, the yogi/ chinese words), due to my limited background with Buddhism, does oftentimes lead to my feeling helplessly lost in the waves, and wondering at my practical ability to overcome these language barriers. Therefore, it is a turn-off to new yogis. However, your idea of a glossary page is brilliant, or perhaps, when someone uses a term that is little-known or of a different language, it would be incredibly generous of them to allow for a parenthesied definition directly after. But, as I said, I understand how trying that may be, especially if one is in the 'flow' of what they are writing. But a glossary sounds golden! Thanks, Tommy! You rock!
emoticon

Love and Happiness,

Jazzi

PS- Just ecstatically happy today, and thanks for this moment of happiness!
George Campbell, modified 9 Years ago.

RE: my thoughts on actual freedom and the dho

Posts: 12 Join Date: 10/19/11 Recent Posts
tarin greco:


the answer to the second question is simple: i do not find it suitable for me to make a claim of a condition which i cannot recognise. for this reason, i am relinquishing any claim of an actual freedom, whether on my behalf or the behalf of any other.


tarin


excellent and best of luck with your journey ahead!!

If you get around to building your boat, let me know, I will pay a visit ;)

Breadcrumb