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need advice on how to hide insight progress. Hermetically Sealed 8/19/13 3:02 PM
RE: need advice on how to hide insight progress. Beoman Claudiu Dragon Emu Fire Golem 8/19/13 3:27 PM
RE: need advice on how to hide insight progress. Hermetically Sealed 8/19/13 4:01 PM
RE: need advice on how to hide insight progress. Simon T. 8/19/13 5:08 PM
RE: need advice on how to hide insight progress. Hermetically Sealed 8/19/13 5:19 PM
RE: need advice on how to hide insight progress. Simon T. 8/19/13 5:31 PM
RE: need advice on how to hide insight progress. Matthew 8/19/13 5:33 PM
RE: need advice on how to hide insight progress. Hermetically Sealed 8/19/13 6:08 PM
RE: need advice on how to hide insight progress. Beoman Claudiu Dragon Emu Fire Golem 8/19/13 6:11 PM
RE: need advice on how to hide insight progress. Hermetically Sealed 8/19/13 7:26 PM
RE: need advice on how to hide insight progress. Richard Zen 8/19/13 7:26 PM
RE: need advice on how to hide insight progress. Hermetically Sealed 8/19/13 7:54 PM
RE: need advice on how to hide insight progress. Richard Zen 8/19/13 8:10 PM
RE: need advice on how to hide insight progress. Hermetically Sealed 8/19/13 8:45 PM
RE: need advice on how to hide insight progress. Richard Zen 8/19/13 10:47 PM
RE: need advice on how to hide insight progress. Beoman Claudiu Dragon Emu Fire Golem 8/19/13 11:52 PM
RE: need advice on how to hide insight progress. Hermetically Sealed 8/20/13 4:11 AM
RE: need advice on how to hide insight progress. Beoman Claudiu Dragon Emu Fire Golem 8/20/13 12:43 PM
RE: need advice on how to hide insight progress. Hermetically Sealed 8/20/13 5:01 PM
RE: need advice on how to hide insight progress. Maher K 8/19/13 9:25 PM
RE: need advice on how to hide insight progress. Hermetically Sealed 8/19/13 10:41 PM
RE: need advice on how to hide insight progress. M N 8/20/13 2:22 AM
RE: need advice on how to hide insight progress. Hermetically Sealed 8/20/13 3:34 AM
RE: need advice on how to hide insight progress. Jinxed P 8/20/13 6:20 PM
RE: need advice on how to hide insight progress. Hermetically Sealed 8/20/13 7:12 PM
RE: need advice on how to hide insight progress. Matthew 8/20/13 7:15 PM
RE: need advice on how to hide insight progress. Hermetically Sealed 8/20/13 7:38 PM
RE: need advice on how to hide insight progress. Jinxed P 8/20/13 8:09 PM
RE: need advice on how to hide insight progress. Hermetically Sealed 8/20/13 9:32 PM
RE: need advice on how to hide insight progress. Jinxed P 8/20/13 10:03 PM
RE: need advice on how to hide insight progress. Hermetically Sealed 8/20/13 11:14 PM
RE: need advice on how to hide insight progress. Jinxed P 8/21/13 4:06 PM
RE: need advice on how to hide insight progress. Beoman Claudiu Dragon Emu Fire Golem 8/20/13 11:23 PM
RE: need advice on how to hide insight progress. Hermetically Sealed 8/21/13 2:38 AM
RE: need advice on how to hide insight progress. Beoman Claudiu Dragon Emu Fire Golem 8/21/13 11:47 AM
RE: need advice on how to hide insight progress. Hermetically Sealed 8/21/13 7:03 PM
RE: need advice on how to hide insight progress. Dan From Virginia 8/26/13 5:25 PM
RE: need advice on how to hide insight progress. Hermetically Sealed 8/26/13 8:16 PM
RE: need advice on how to hide insight progress. Dan From Virginia 8/27/13 1:02 AM
RE: need advice on how to hide insight progress. J E B 8/29/13 3:31 PM
RE: need advice on how to hide insight progress. Hermetically Sealed 8/29/13 6:18 PM
RE: need advice on how to hide insight progress. J E B 8/29/13 5:05 PM
RE: need advice on how to hide insight progress. Hermetically Sealed 8/29/13 6:39 PM
RE: need advice on how to hide insight progress. J E B 8/29/13 9:28 PM
RE: need advice on how to hide insight progress. Hermetically Sealed 8/29/13 10:37 PM
RE: need advice on how to hide insight progress. J E B 8/29/13 11:08 PM
RE: need advice on how to hide insight progress. Beoman Claudiu Dragon Emu Fire Golem 8/30/13 11:10 AM
RE: need advice on how to hide insight progress. J E B 8/30/13 11:24 AM
RE: need advice on how to hide insight progress. Simon Ekstrand 8/30/13 1:41 PM
RE: need advice on how to hide insight progress. J E B 8/30/13 7:18 PM
RE: need advice on how to hide insight progress. Bruno Loff 9/23/13 4:52 PM
RE: need advice on how to hide insight progress. Beoman Claudiu Dragon Emu Fire Golem 9/23/13 5:41 PM
RE: need advice on how to hide insight progress. Bruno Loff 9/23/13 5:57 PM
RE: need advice on how to hide insight progress. Beoman Claudiu Dragon Emu Fire Golem 9/23/13 7:12 PM
RE: need advice on how to hide insight progress. J E B 9/23/13 9:44 PM
RE: need advice on how to hide insight progress. Beoman Claudiu Dragon Emu Fire Golem 9/24/13 9:42 AM
RE: need advice on how to hide insight progress. J E B 9/24/13 10:16 AM
RE: need advice on how to hide insight progress. Bruno Loff 9/25/13 1:58 PM
RE: need advice on how to hide insight progress. Beoman Claudiu Dragon Emu Fire Golem 9/25/13 4:20 PM
RE: need advice on how to hide insight progress. Felipe C. 9/26/13 12:22 AM
RE: need advice on how to hide insight progress. J E B 9/26/13 10:00 AM
RE: need advice on how to hide insight progress. . Jake . 9/26/13 10:33 AM
RE: need advice on how to hide insight progress. J E B 9/26/13 11:14 AM
RE: need advice on how to hide insight progress. Beoman Claudiu Dragon Emu Fire Golem 9/26/13 11:52 AM
RE: need advice on how to hide insight progress. J E B 9/26/13 12:01 PM
RE: need advice on how to hide insight progress. Beoman Claudiu Dragon Emu Fire Golem 9/26/13 1:19 PM
RE: need advice on how to hide insight progress. J E B 9/26/13 1:29 PM
RE: need advice on how to hide insight progress. Beoman Claudiu Dragon Emu Fire Golem 9/26/13 1:39 PM
RE: need advice on how to hide insight progress. J E B 9/26/13 1:53 PM
RE: need advice on how to hide insight progress. Beoman Claudiu Dragon Emu Fire Golem 9/26/13 2:00 PM
RE: need advice on how to hide insight progress. J E B 9/26/13 2:09 PM
RE: need advice on how to hide insight progress. Beoman Claudiu Dragon Emu Fire Golem 9/26/13 2:16 PM
RE: need advice on how to hide insight progress. J E B 9/26/13 2:20 PM
RE: need advice on how to hide insight progress. Beoman Claudiu Dragon Emu Fire Golem 9/26/13 2:30 PM
RE: need advice on how to hide insight progress. J E B 9/26/13 3:18 PM
RE: need advice on how to hide insight progress. Beoman Claudiu Dragon Emu Fire Golem 9/26/13 3:45 PM
RE: need advice on how to hide insight progress. J E B 9/26/13 4:16 PM
RE: need advice on how to hide insight progress. . Jake . 9/26/13 2:48 PM
RE: need advice on how to hide insight progress. J E B 9/26/13 3:17 PM
RE: need advice on how to hide insight progress. Change A. 9/29/13 10:43 AM
RE: need advice on how to hide insight progress. . Jake . 9/26/13 12:37 PM
RE: need advice on how to hide insight progress. J E B 9/26/13 1:15 PM
RE: need advice on how to hide insight progress. . Jake . 9/26/13 2:42 PM
RE: need advice on how to hide insight progress. J E B 9/26/13 3:13 PM
RE: need advice on how to hide insight progress. Beoman Claudiu Dragon Emu Fire Golem 9/26/13 11:05 AM
RE: need advice on how to hide insight progress. J E B 9/26/13 11:29 AM
RE: need advice on how to hide insight progress. J E B 9/24/13 10:31 AM
RE: need advice on how to hide insight progress. Beoman Claudiu Dragon Emu Fire Golem 8/29/13 5:40 PM
RE: need advice on how to hide insight progress. Martijn van der Waal 9/23/13 7:19 AM
RE: need advice on how to hide insight progress. Bruno Loff 9/23/13 4:55 PM
I find myself struggling not with how to achieve profound states, not with how to let those profound states outflow the incredible bliss into my day to day, moment to moment awareness, but rather how to contain it and bottle it back up. Because after all being 'enlightened' or even profoundly happy is not socially acceptable in our society. When you meet new people they generally want to talk about the things that are going wrong in their lives, the stress points so to speak. They want you to listen to their sob stories and then empathize and tell them your own stories about your own struggles this way you are finding common ground and they can relate to you. For example lets say I'm on a date with a young lady, she wants to know about the drama in my life because she just told me a big story about the drama in her life. She needs to be able to understand my life as if it were a soap opera or a reality TV show in a certain sense. She is trying to make sure that I'm a 'real person' who struggles in the same way that she struggles, so that she can relate to me. People want to make friends with those who's struggles and achievements they can relate to.

You can't just say to someone "I feel amazing every day, life feels like magic, and my only problem is having to find ways to pretend like I don't feel so great so that I can relate to normal people". You don't have any normal 'life relationship dramas' do you ? No. Because your life is blessed and because drama rolls off you like water off the back of a duck, so instead you have to *pretend* to be a normal person, pretend that the little circumstantial dramas with your friends and relatives stress you out, pretend that you're worried about this, or fundamentally confused about that. You can't say to her 'babe there's nothing to worry about, you just have to awaken your consciousness to live in the profound peace of mind that is your true birthright and true self'. Your biggest problem is a problem of how to effectively hide your level of attainment, so that you can still get laid, socialize with a large group of friends, and in general make those around you feel comfortable.

The more profound your states of meditation are the more difficult it is to fake being a normal quasi-depressed westerner. I mean don't get me wrong it's easy to do during the first few interactions when you meet someone because you develop a routine. It's easy to do long enough to get relationships started with women, or to get along with people at work, but difficult to maintain over the long run as people spend more and more time around you. "He's really chill, honest, relaxed, civil, intelligent, and comfortable, so much so that spending lots of time around him almost makes me feel like there's something wrong with me". That is OK if you're a 60 year old man who has a community of buddhist monks around you or whatever, then it makes sense for you to be like that, but if you're a 31 year old IT guy in a normal american city then people find it confusing. I'm posting this in the 'claims to attainment' forum because I'm sure some people will read it that way even though that's not really my intention with this message.

RE: need advice on how to hide insight progress.
Answer
8/19/13 3:27 PM as a reply to Hermetically Sealed.
You're saying you have a solution to the problems that plague people, and now you want to hide it from them by pretending you haven't? Why? Isn't that a bit selfish of you? Don't go about evangelizing, since that doesn't do anything, but if people ask then you can get into a conversation with them about it and see if they aren't willing to listen. Otherwise, why pretend to be one of them? Because it's easier for you? But why, if all you are is bliss and drama rolls off your back, do you want to avoid disappointing other people by not being like them? That sounds more like you are avoiding drama instead of it rolling off your back regardless of what happens. Maybe something for you to investigate.

RE: need advice on how to hide insight progress.
Answer
8/19/13 4:01 PM as a reply to Beoman Claudiu Dragon Emu Fire Golem.
Beoman Claudiu Dragon Emu Fire Golem:
You're saying you have a solution to the problems that plague people, and now you want to hide it from them by pretending you haven't? Why? Isn't that a bit selfish of you?


Well "the solution" is already out there in the public domain. It's not something that I have a monopoly on, and it's not even something that I think I'd be particularly good at teaching. My teaching style is generally to refer people to the books and other source materials that helped me get over whatever it is that I think they're stuck on. I don't get a lot of opportunities to do that though. I don't hide the fact that I meditate per say, and I hail as a buddhist whenever the topic of religion comes up. But if you tell someone that buddhist practice makes you profoundly happy, then they're going to see it either as evangelizing or as egotism. I find there's no good way to introduce people to the subject unless they are already complaining about how they are depressed but even in such cases most women I find at least don't want actual suggestions on how they can become less depressed instead they just want you to say something like "aww I'm sorry babe, give me a hug, is there anything I can do for you ? " In other words most women want to frolic in the surf of emotions rather than the arid desert of logic, and most guys don't want to talk about it really, all you can do is tell them something like "meditation works for me, I'll shoot you a book recommendation that I found helpful".

Beoman Claudiu Dragon Emu Fire Golem:

Don't go about evangelizing, since that doesn't do anything, but if people ask then you can get into a conversation with them about it and see if they aren't willing to listen. Otherwise, why pretend to be one of them? Because it's easier for you? But why, if all you are is bliss and drama rolls off your back, do you want to avoid disappointing other people by not being like them ?


As you progress along the path you develop compassion for yourself not just for other people, and out of that compassion for yourself emerges a duty to not allow yourself to become completely socially isolated even if you know you can definitely handle it psychologically. If you isolate yourself socially then it makes your relatives worried about you, they will assume you have some kind of mental illness, and they will feel like they've failed in their duty to raise you properly and to support you. Therefor in order to help your family feel good, and out of compassion for your body's need to be touched, and out of respect for your own preference to be around people, you do whatever is necessary to be a social being. This usually means finding ways to mask your normal state of consciousness and to pretend to be like everyone else to the degree that will make them feel comfortable. It can be a challenge though.

Beoman Claudiu Dragon Emu Fire Golem:

That sounds more like you are avoiding drama instead of it rolling off your back regardless of what happens. Maybe something for you to investigate.


Interesting, I will contemplate that. Yes in a sense I am avoiding the drama that would be associated with telling people the truth about how they can fix all their own problems with certain awareness practices. I avoid this drama not because I'm afraid of experiencing the drama (I have experienced it in the past), but rather because my goal is to facilitate a 'normal interaction' for the compassion-oriented reasons mentioned above. People in general don't want to hear that you have the solution to their core angst, and that you understand life better than them, so if your goal is to not isolate yourself socially then you have to go with what people are looking for socially. *sigh*. I will contemplate what you said though.

RE: need advice on how to hide insight progress.
Answer
8/19/13 5:08 PM as a reply to Hermetically Sealed.
Beside obviously wanting to get rid of my suffering, my moral motivation to eventually get enlightenment is to become where other people fears come to die. So not only do I need to be fearless myself but I also need to develop the social skills to allow this process to happens. A lot can happens simply by eyes contacts. Selflessness can be communicated a lot by the eyes. You can allow the other to rest his eyes comfortably in yours because you are not avoiding the eye contact and neither are you making a dominating stairs. Favor situations where the person or you can break the eye contact comfortably, like walking together. Each time, the person will get a glimpse of it. Dose skillfully and you can bring a lot of relaxation in the person life.

RE: need advice on how to hide insight progress.
Answer
8/19/13 5:19 PM as a reply to Simon T..
Thanks Simon. I completely agree that so much communication is non-verbal. I will reflect on this often.

RE: need advice on how to hide insight progress.
Answer
8/19/13 5:31 PM as a reply to Hermetically Sealed.
Hermetically Sealed:
Thanks Simon. I completely agree that so much communication is non-verbal. I will reflect on this often.


Jeff Foster talks about connecting with people in his interview on Buddha At The Gas Pump. He talks exactly about that challenge.

RE: need advice on how to hide insight progress.
Answer
8/19/13 5:33 PM as a reply to Simon T..
Were you socially adept before you started meditating? If not, this problem likely predates your practice. If you have few interests that you can discuss with people other than meditation, consider challenging the assumption that you should be socially active in the first place. I don't recommend total withdrawal from human interaction, but it's worth considering (for example) whether actively seeking a long-term romantic relationship is in line with your highest or innermost goals.

There's also no shame in regrouping after each major change. You may find that associations with people and groups that worked in the past are no longer mutually beneficial. It can take some time for the new "I" to figure out what it thinks it wants; not coincidentally, if you're practicing regularly, the solidification of a new post-path identity tends to initiate the next path.

RE: need advice on how to hide insight progress.
Answer
8/19/13 6:08 PM as a reply to Matthew.
Matthew Horn:
Were you socially adept before you started meditating? If not, this problem likely predates your practice. If you have few interests that you can discuss with people other than meditation, consider challenging the assumption that you should be socially active in the first place. I don't recommend total withdrawal from human interaction, but it's worth considering (for example) whether actively seeking a long-term romantic relationship is in line with your highest or innermost goals.


I was young when I started meditating, like in my teens. I do have other interests, but admittedly you wouldn't know it from reading my posts here. For example I own a web startup company, and I'm a software developer, so I'm very much in tune with the happenings in the tech world. I tend to meet women who are working in some capacity in the tech sector or are at least oriented to it so we can connect on that stuff. I could always develop more non-work, non-meditation related interests that would be good advice, but the gist of my message is not so much a complaint about not having stuff to talk about with women. I have what it takes to hook up with women, and to make friends. I'm just complaining that I have to basically be an actor in order to do so, therefor I'm expending energy pretending to have attitudes that I don't have, emotions that I don't feel, etc. in order to do whatever it takes to be a normal boyfriend, or friend or whatever. It works fine and I suppose I don't really need 'help' with it after all I'm just complaining about having to do it, and sometimes I wonder if it's what I should be doing or not. Sometimes I go through periods where I step back from doing it and just spend time by myself and that recharges me to a certain extent.

You might be right about a long-term romantic relationship not being inline with my highest goals. I get burnt out after a while so I either go off by myself for long periods of time or I stop putting as much effort into the acting job; and that causes tension in the relationship. The problem is I love women lol. I'll find one who can give me the space I need or doesn't require as much 'acting' one of these days I suppose.

http://www.typelogic.com/intj.html

Matthew Horn:
There's also no shame in regrouping after each major change. You may find that associations with people and groups that worked in the past are no longer mutually beneficial. It can take some time for the new "I" to figure out what it thinks it wants; not coincidentally, if you're practicing regularly, the solidification of a new post-path identity tends to initiate the next path.


interesting. I will reflect on this, and read more 'paths'.

RE: need advice on how to hide insight progress.
Answer
8/19/13 6:11 PM as a reply to Hermetically Sealed.
Hermetically Sealed:
For example I own a web startup company, and I'm a software developer, so I'm very much in tune with the happenings in the tech world.

Oh this is off-topic, but awesome, me too. I am in a startup and am a software developer. Python + Javascript is da stuff for me.

RE: need advice on how to hide insight progress.
Answer
8/19/13 7:26 PM as a reply to Hermetically Sealed.
My advice is to talk about the things you find hard while still having your awesome equanimity when relateing to people at work or old friends. They'll relate to you just fine. From my experience people don't read faces as well as they think they do and they often underestimate how deep some people are. For close relationships like close family and a girlfriend I would let them know the truth because it's impossible to hide at this point.

Next if you can find people who happen to be happier types I would hang around them more. There's no point spending time with negative types because they will just be envious and try to test your equanimity. Envy ruins everything.

At work just DON'T TALK ABOUT BUDDHISM. They'll look at you like a lunatic. Even if they understand just a little bit of what you're talking about it's likely too much information for them to process at once and they will misunderstand you. I've done this mistake and I even repeated it recently but I was talking about dopamine and psychology and it just backfires because they don't have a clue what you're talking about. It's like talking a foreign language to them, especially to those who aren't religious, don't read philosophy, don't know any psychology, and chase desire at all times.

Remember how you were before you meditated. Did you have doubts about the practice? Did it take a lot of time for a lot of it to sink in? It will be the same for other people except it's worse because they aren't even thinking about pursuing meditation and probably don't want it.

I remember some people talking about (probably Jhanic experiences) at work after their yoga practices and getting all proselytizing about it and bosses making fun of it. "So is Yoga a religion for you?"

So the reality at work is to compete by putting good effort but using your sympathy you've developed to relate to people.

RE: need advice on how to hide insight progress.
Answer
8/19/13 7:26 PM as a reply to Beoman Claudiu Dragon Emu Fire Golem.
Beoman Claudiu Dragon Emu Fire Golem:
Hermetically Sealed:
For example I own a web startup company, and I'm a software developer, so I'm very much in tune with the happenings in the tech world.

Oh this is off-topic, but awesome, me too. I am in a startup and am a software developer. Python + Javascript is da stuff for me.


fantastic!
Ruby + Javascript + (Riak || couchdb) over here. On the front end side of things bootstrap 3.0 just came out today. I love it when people invent tools that make it easier for me to pretend like I'm an awesome designer. Get it while it's hot http://getbootstrap.com/

RE: need advice on how to hide insight progress.
Answer
8/19/13 7:54 PM as a reply to Richard Zen.
Richard Zen:
My advice is to talk about the things you find hard while still having your awesome equanimity when relateing to people at work or old friends. They'll relate to you just fine. From my experience people don't read faces as well as they think they do and they often underestimate how deep some people are. For close relationships like close family and a girlfriend I would let them know the truth because it's impossible to hide at this point.


Perhaps you're right, but many girlfriends will resent it. She'll see it as you all of a sudden wanting to rock the boat and inject some 'holier than thou' dynamic into the relationship that wasn't there before. This happens even if you try to broach it in a very subtle way. This is because usually she's already a little bit jealous of your level of self-control and she'll see this new subject matter as you trying to rub it in her face. It will almost always be perceived as an ego thing "he thinks he's better than me because of the intellectual/spiritual crap he's been reading".. and then the resentment begins and that's the beginning of the end. It's too risky and unfair to her to suddenly present her with new concepts and try to re-frame her view of who you are in the middle of the relationship, it's almost like false advertising. I presented myself as person A in order to start the relationship, so I'm not going to just wait until we've had a bunch of sex and then tell her "oh by the way I'm person B". It's better to just commit to being person A and do as good a job with it as you can I think. You're right about it being impossible to hide at some point, which is the main thing I wanted to underline with this thread.

Maybe part of my problem is that I don't wrap myself in any of the trappings of buddhist religion, I mean I don't have little buddha statues or a "free tibet" sticker or anything. Maybe I should find ways to present that as part of my personality from the onset to make it less problematic later on. Or maybe I just need to move to LA where there's more yoga girls. That's something I'll think about. (humor / http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=L-8IPDR4Khc)


Richard Zen:

Next if you can find people who happen to be happier types I would hang around them more. There's no point spending time with negative types because they will just be envious and try to test your equanimity. Envy ruins everything.


Agreed.

Richard Zen:

At work just DON'T TALK ABOUT BUDDHISM.


Oh totally I would never dream of it.

RE: need advice on how to hide insight progress.
Answer
8/19/13 8:10 PM as a reply to Hermetically Sealed.
Hermetically Sealed:
Richard Zen:
My advice is to talk about the things you find hard while still having your awesome equanimity when relating to people at work or old friends. They'll relate to you just fine. From my experience people don't read faces as well as they think they do and they often underestimate how deep some people are. For close relationships like close family and a girlfriend I would let them know the truth because it's impossible to hide at this point.


Perhaps you're right, but many girlfriends will resent it. She'll see it as you all of a sudden wanting to rock the boat and inject some 'holier than thou' dynamic into the relationship that wasn't there before. This happens even if you try to broach it in a very subtle way. This is because usually she's already a little bit jealous of your level of self-control and she'll see this new subject matter as you trying to rub it in her face. It will almost always be perceived as an ego thing "he thinks he's better than me because of the intellectual/spiritual crap he's been reading".. and then the resentment begins and that's the beginning of the end. It's too risky and unfair to her to suddenly present her with new concepts and try to re-frame her view of who you are in the middle of the relationship, it's almost like false advertising. I presented myself as person A in order to start the relationship, so I'm not going to just wait until we've had a bunch of sex and then tell her "oh by the way I'm person B". It's better to just commit to being person A and do as good a job with it as you can I think. You're right about it being impossible to hide at some point, which is the main thing I wanted to underline with this thread.


I'm not hugely experienced in relationships but I would hate being with a whiner so I would avoid women who only want to whine because that will bode badly for long-term relationships whether you have equanimity or not. Secondly you shouldn't fake insecurity to get with certain girls because you want to hide your Buddhist background. Don't hide it except for work relationships etc. That way you don't have to be in a false advertising scenario.

Here's a good blog with some nice pointers:

Tips on finding the right woman for you

The woman for you will have your back.

RE: need advice on how to hide insight progress.
Answer
8/19/13 8:45 PM as a reply to Richard Zen.
Richard Zen:
Hermetically Sealed:
Richard Zen:
My advice is to talk about the things you find hard while still having your awesome equanimity when relating to people at work or old friends. They'll relate to you just fine. From my experience people don't read faces as well as they think they do and they often underestimate how deep some people are. For close relationships like close family and a girlfriend I would let them know the truth because it's impossible to hide at this point.


Perhaps you're right, but many girlfriends will resent it. She'll see it as you all of a sudden wanting to rock the boat and inject some 'holier than thou' dynamic into the relationship that wasn't there before. This happens even if you try to broach it in a very subtle way. This is because usually she's already a little bit jealous of your level of self-control and she'll see this new subject matter as you trying to rub it in her face. It will almost always be perceived as an ego thing "he thinks he's better than me because of the intellectual/spiritual crap he's been reading".. and then the resentment begins and that's the beginning of the end. It's too risky and unfair to her to suddenly present her with new concepts and try to re-frame her view of who you are in the middle of the relationship, it's almost like false advertising. I presented myself as person A in order to start the relationship, so I'm not going to just wait until we've had a bunch of sex and then tell her "oh by the way I'm person B". It's better to just commit to being person A and do as good a job with it as you can I think. You're right about it being impossible to hide at some point, which is the main thing I wanted to underline with this thread.


Secondly you shouldn't fake insecurity to get with certain girls because you want to hide your Buddhist background. Don't hide it except for work relationships etc. That way you don't have to be in a false advertising scenario.


I will think about how I to retool my dating reality filter to somehow let more of the buddhist stuff in from the onset. I'm sure that will turn off some women but maybe it'll help me filter better for the one I really want.

Richard Zen:

Here's a good blog with some nice pointers:

Tips on finding the right woman for you

The woman for you will have your back.


Hey thanks for this I can tell this is good advice.

RE: need advice on how to hide insight progress.
Answer
8/19/13 9:25 PM as a reply to Hermetically Sealed.
It seems to me that you're "looking for love" in all the wrong places. A woman who you truly are compatible with will be compatible with you physically (maybe with a little work on your or her part lol), emotionally, intellectually, and spiritually. While she may not be as far along on the path as you, she will probably have some interest in spirituality, and she may have started progress through insight territory, whether she meant to or not. Love tends to "just happen" and isn't really something that you can "make happen." If you are constantly preoccupied with it, you may miss out on someone who is truly a match for you. I "fell in love" with a girl recently, and she completely took me off guard. I was not even thinking about a partner, and me and her relate so well that we can finish each other's sentences. I'd say I'm a little further on the path than her, but she is on it as well, and it is probably one of the main things we talk about. As far as attainments go, you seem to be a little ahead of me on the path, but that doesn't mean there isn't a woman out there for you. If you force yourself to be with someone who is not at least at a comparable level of consciousness or insight progress as you, you are not gaining anything from it. It's empty, like you said; you're just acting. I can relate to your age thing, as I am only 21 and already on the path, it seems that we are both "old souls". I'm relatively certain there is a woman out there who is an "old soul" for you as well. On the other hand, you may have to face the reality that you might not ever find "someone" for you and you'll have to die alone. Ouch, I can feel my "self" getting really afraid of that, probably some great fodder for some insight.

In regards to dealing with regular people, maybe you should reconsider the people you are spending your time with? Now that I've spent some time on the path, I've realized that most other people "bring me down." I'm not being negative in anyway and they don't do it intentionally, it's just that they haven't realized what we all here at DhO have. There is a Rumi poem that speaks well on this matter: Be With Those Who Help Your Being . Why spend your time with those who aren't on the path if you don't have to? For things of necessity such as work, errands, etc. of course it is unavoidable, but in your free time, wouldn't it make sense to spend time with others on the path? Please don't think I am being judgmental as this is something I'm trying to work on myself. It seems that you may want to consider looking for a group of spiritual people that you can hang out with in person. DhO is amazing and you guys have helped me a lot on the path, but nothing beats real world face time. I live in the metropolitan area, NJ specifically, so if you're nearby I'm always open to meeting up with others on the path! I hope you've found some of my thoughts useful.

RE: need advice on how to hide insight progress.
Answer
8/19/13 10:47 PM as a reply to Hermetically Sealed.
Hermetically Sealed:
I will think about how I to retool my dating reality filter to somehow let more of the buddhist stuff in from the onset. I'm sure that will turn off some women but maybe it'll help me filter better for the one I really want.


Bingo! You got it. The irony is that it will be good for those women you avoid because they should also filter for values in a relationship. You want to avoid those common nasty divorces because I've seen too many people around me emotionally crushed and they are hugely envious of those who are free and on their own.

Here's some more good stuff from psychology today:

What makes a happy, successful marriage?

Higher failure rate of second and third marriages

There! Hopefully you are armed to the teeth with reality so you can make better informed choices. As you know with habits being difficult to deal with even when you meditate what are the chances that someone will change habits if they don't even try? Pretty small chance.

RE: need advice on how to hide insight progress.
Answer
8/19/13 10:41 PM as a reply to Maher K.
Maher K:
It seems to me that you're "looking for love" in all the wrong places. A woman who you truly are compatible with will be compatible with you physically (maybe with a little work on your or her part lol), emotionally, intellectually, and spiritually. While she may not be as far along on the path as you, she will probably have some interest in spirituality, and she may have started progress through insight territory, whether she meant to or not.


I completely agree with you. A master I trust once said: "For there to be Love it is necessary for there to be affinity of thought, affinity of feeling, and affinity of will." It's easy to get into a relationship knowing that at least 2 of the 3 are there, and hoping that the third factor will come into alignment but it doesn't always happen that way. I will just have to not let past failures get me down so that I'm open to accepting a perfect match who I'm sure will show up as soon as I'm truly ready.


If you force yourself to be with someone who is not at least at a comparable level of consciousness or insight progress as you, you are not gaining anything from it. It's empty, like you said; you're just acting.


I will be satisfied if she is just focused on evolving her consciousness. I don't mind if she's far ahead or far behind me when it comes to insight progress goes as long as her will is focused in the same direction. I suppose I'm OK with acting as long as I know for sure that it's helping someone, then it's no longer a chore. I just need to find the right one you're right on the money, until then I'll work on myself at every level possible including the skill of "acting" so that I'm 100% ready to receive such a blessing.


I can relate to your age thing, as I am only 21 and already on the path, it seems that we are both "old souls". I'm relatively certain there is a woman out there who is an "old soul" for you as well. On the other hand, you may have to face the reality that you might not ever find "someone" for you and you'll have to die alone. Ouch, I can feel my "self" getting really afraid of that, probably some great fodder for some insight.


Thanks bud! and congrats on coming so far so quickly! Don't worry the further your practice develops the less alone you'll feel even when conventionally speaking you are alone. It's satisfying to be able to see that your every day energies are going to help a specific being though, which is really all I want out of a relationship. I think a good relationship acts as a mirror so that you can learn more about yourself than would be possible otherwise. This is why even a person with a lower degree of insight awareness can still teach you an infinite amount, because you are really learning about yourself, and in truth you are infinite.


Why spend your time with those who aren't on the path if you don't have to? For things of necessity such as work, errands, etc. of course it is unavoidable, but in your free time, wouldn't it make sense to spend time with others on the path? Please don't think I am being judgmental as this is something I'm trying to work on myself. It seems that you may want to consider looking for a group of spiritual people that you can hang out with in person. DhO is amazing and you guys have helped me a lot on the path, but nothing beats real world face time. I live in the metropolitan area, NJ specifically, so if you're nearby I'm always open to meeting up with others on the path! I hope you've found some of my thoughts useful.


Thanks man, yea you make great points. I do magnetize good people to me actually and the ones who aren't on the path are really in secret on the path they just don't realize it fully. I'm on the west coast right now but I have relatives in NY so I'll remember you the next time I find myself in that metro, maybe we can kick it. Thanks again for your help

RE: need advice on how to hide insight progress.
Answer
8/19/13 11:52 PM as a reply to Hermetically Sealed.
Hermetically Sealed:
Richard Zen:
My advice is to talk about the things you find hard while still having your awesome equanimity when relateing to people at work or old friends. They'll relate to you just fine. From my experience people don't read faces as well as they think they do and they often underestimate how deep some people are. For close relationships like close family and a girlfriend I would let them know the truth because it's impossible to hide at this point.


Perhaps you're right, but many girlfriends will resent it. She'll see it as you all of a sudden wanting to rock the boat and inject some 'holier than thou' dynamic into the relationship that wasn't there before. This happens even if you try to broach it in a very subtle way. This is because usually she's already a little bit jealous of your level of self-control and she'll see this new subject matter as you trying to rub it in her face. It will almost always be perceived as an ego thing "he thinks he's better than me because of the intellectual/spiritual crap he's been reading".. and then the resentment begins and that's the beginning of the end.

Dood, all that is happening exactly because you have an air of "holier than thou". Look at the way you're describing the other, though I replaced the pronoun to make it more personal since you are talking about yourself here after all: "she's already a little bit jealous of level of self-control".

I'm reminded of an old mailing list I read somewhere where someone was asking for advice on how to deal with women. He said he had problems with women because they were intimadated by his inteligence. Yes, he had tons of spelling errors in his post. It was fairly clear that actually he wasn't quite that intelligent, so it wasn't that women were intimidated by his intelligence but they were put off by him feeling like he was very intelligent when in fact he wasn't.

I could be wrong, of course, this is just an educated guess, so I leave it to you to determine whether it's accurate. But if it is, how will you proceed?

RE: need advice on how to hide insight progress.
Answer
8/20/13 4:11 AM as a reply to Beoman Claudiu Dragon Emu Fire Golem.
Beoman Claudiu Dragon Emu Fire Golem:
Hermetically Sealed:
Richard Zen:
My advice is to talk about the things you find hard while still having your awesome equanimity when relateing to people at work or old friends. They'll relate to you just fine. From my experience people don't read faces as well as they think they do and they often underestimate how deep some people are. For close relationships like close family and a girlfriend I would let them know the truth because it's impossible to hide at this point.


Perhaps you're right, but many girlfriends will resent it. She'll see it as you all of a sudden wanting to rock the boat and inject some 'holier than thou' dynamic into the relationship that wasn't there before. This happens even if you try to broach it in a very subtle way. This is because usually she's already a little bit jealous of your level of self-control and she'll see this new subject matter as you trying to rub it in her face. It will almost always be perceived as an ego thing "he thinks he's better than me because of the intellectual/spiritual crap he's been reading".. and then the resentment begins and that's the beginning of the end.

Dood, all that is happening exactly because you have an air of "holier than thou". Look at the way you're describing the other, though I replaced the pronoun to make it more personal since you are talking about yourself here after all: "she's already a little bit jealous of level of self-control".


I agree it does sound 'holier than thou' never the less that doesn't mean it wasn't accurate. It's my duty to attempt to describe the situation as I perceived it. There's a difference between sounding 'holier than thou' when describing the situation on a forum and acting 'holier than thou' in real life. In real human relationships there are power differentials, this is a fact. Relationships constellate around these power sincs or power mountains although they are rarely spoken of directly. It has always been this way although in the most ancient hunter-gatherer times it was far more obvious. A romantic relationship can be a precarious balance of power. The feminine has certain power sources and the male other power sources. Why would a very physically attractive woman mate with a less physically attractive male ? Usually this is because he has some other source of power to offset his lack of physical attractiveness (I'm not saying I'm not physically attractive mind you this is just an example). In such a situation there can be a game of tug of war going on where the woman is trying to prove that her power approximates that of the male's. Many women like to feel slightly less powerful than their mate but not majorly so.

If during the course of a relationship either lover unveils a previously concealed source of power which he cannot immediately share with his partner then the entire balance of the relationship has shifted and the partner has to reevaluate how she feels about the new dynamic. If the new power gradient is say, a million dollars earned from a winning lottery ticket, then it's not a problem because the winner can merely share the money with his mate, but when the new source of power is something spiritual then that can indeed cause problems because such power is not easily transferred. Some people are happy to see that their mate has a greater abundance of power than previously imagined, but for others it will be perceived as a loss of control, and many people feel like they need to have a certain amount of control in order to feel comfortable.

Many times it is impossible to describe such dynamics without sounding egotistical especially if you try to do it using very few words.


Beoman Claudiu Dragon Emu Fire Golem:

I'm reminded of an old mailing list I read somewhere where someone was asking for advice on how to deal with women. He said he had problems with women because they were intimadated by his inteligence. Yes, he had tons of spelling errors in his post. It was fairly clear that actually he wasn't quite that intelligent, so it wasn't that women were intimidated by his intelligence but they were put off by him feeling like he was very intelligent when in fact he wasn't.


right on, point taken; What you say is true and these examples are real. With that said I do think that in many cases individuals really are intimidated by other individual's intelligence. To illustrate my point lets take an example that is common ground for both of us; a job interview at a web startup company. If you are the one being interviewed and your skillset and prior accomplishments are impressive then you are in danger of causing the other team members to worry that you might try to 'take over the lead' of the team when that may not necessarily be what they have in mind. Some team members might even be afraid that you will replace them or point out the shortcomings of their work. As the interviewee it is your task to not only prove that you are qualified for the job, but to also prove that you don't intend to wield your power in ways that may be perceived as threatening. I have personally witnessed many instances of people being intimidated by other people's intelligence in this scenario and it has caused many teams to pass up amazing talent and literally seek the mediocre thereby shooting the company in the foot while it is trying to get off the ground. A thoughtful CEO must be aware of this dynamic and always seek to counter this tendency in a skillful way. I have been the overzelous interviewee before who was oblivious to this dynamic and didn't get the position even though on paper he was the most qualified, and I have been a team member who helped counter this tendency and helped guide the team to a balanced solution. I'm a big fan of balanced solutions. There's no secret to balance, you just have to feel the waves.

Beoman Claudiu Dragon Emu Fire Golem:

I could be wrong, of course, this is just an educated guess, so I leave it to you to determine whether it's accurate. But if it is, how will you proceed?


Thank you for always providing me with a legitimate challenge. One must always act based on what one feels to be true although one should make use of every reasonable opportunity to double check his assumptions. If I realize that I've made a mistake then obviously the right thing to do is to apologize, do whatever damage control may be possible, and make damn sure I don't make the mistake again. I try to make sure that the next time I'm about to act on an assumption, I think much harder about that assumption, and spend much more time making sure I've hunted down all the relevant data which I can get my hands on. I try to never shut out the possibility that I could be mistaken especially about such subtle relationship issues. I assume that I must be completely wrong some percentage of the time. To err is only human, but I seek to eliminate that tendency whenever possible, and I try to make use of both my facilities of intuition and of logic before coming to conclusions. I admit that I have made such errors in the past, and I seek to never make them again, that's really all I can say. Thank you again seriously for your help, sometimes having someone there to play the 'devil's advocate' is exactly what I need.

RE: need advice on how to hide insight progress.
Answer
8/20/13 2:22 AM as a reply to Hermetically Sealed.
Haven't red all the replies, so I'm sorry if I'm going to tell something that has already been told.

I tend to consider social interactions with other people a bit like, let's say, eating habits, in the sense that is something that you have control upon, and depending on how you relate to that it can end up beign very beneficial or very very negative. The way Isee it, expecially inthe realm of close relationships, negative human contact shouldbe regarded like anything else that is dangerous for yourself, such as smoking, alcool, bad eating habits and so on.

Some people are very good to be around with; some other are just toxic; also, the more you grow happy and sane, the more your standard for those around you tend to change, so thatpeople that before were ok might begin to be percievedas toxic, depending on how much you are sensible to these issues.

So, I don't feel that there is any problem in limiting the amount of social interactions, for the very simple reason thatnot having something that is unhealty in your life is just clearly so much better than having it;this is particularly true if you have the kind of psychological sanity that you describe.

If you feel with someone close that you need to pretend to be something that you are not, probably it's not sane for you to nurture that relationship. There is something that is really bad about liying, keeping a secret, and in general pretending; it's just unhealty.

I don't have so much social interaction, but I really enjoy the vast majority of my close relationships; I guess I'm lucky...

RE: need advice on how to hide insight progress.
Answer
8/20/13 3:34 AM as a reply to M N.
Mario Nistri:

If you feel with someone close that you need to pretend to be something that you are not, probably it's not sane for you to nurture that relationship.


There's a subtle difference between choosing to behave in the way that people expect most of the time, and pretending to be something you're not. The former requires a certain kind of strength that is difficult to come by but well worth developing because it is a much more soothing energy than what comes naturally.

thank you for the advice by the way and that's an especially good reminder about diet that came with very good timing.

RE: need advice on how to hide insight progress.
Answer
8/20/13 12:43 PM as a reply to Hermetically Sealed.
Hermetically Sealed:
Beoman Claudiu Dragon Emu Fire Golem:

I could be wrong, of course, this is just an educated guess, so I leave it to you to determine whether it's accurate. But if it is, how will you proceed?


Thank you for always providing me with a legitimate challenge. One must always act based on what one feels to be true although one should make use of every reasonable opportunity to double check his assumptions. If I realize that I've made a mistake then obviously the right thing to do is to apologize, do whatever damage control may be possible, and make damn sure I don't make the mistake again. I try to make sure that the next time I'm about to act on an assumption, I think much harder about that assumption, and spend much more time making sure I've hunted down all the relevant data which I can get my hands on. I try to never shut out the possibility that I could be mistaken especially about such subtle relationship issues. I assume that I must be completely wrong some percentage of the time. To err is only human, but I seek to eliminate that tendency whenever possible, and I try to make use of both my facilities of intuition and of logic before coming to conclusions. I admit that I have made such errors in the past, and I seek to never make them again, that's really all I can say. Thank you again seriously for your help, sometimes having someone there to play the 'devil's advocate' is exactly what I need.

Sure thing! I have been enjoying our interactions thus far. It's interesting to me to parse your words, draw something out of them, write my thoughts, and see how you respond.

Hermetically Sealed:
Beoman Claudiu Dragon Emu Fire Golem:
Dood, all that is happening exactly because you have an air of "holier than thou". Look at the way you're describing the other, though I replaced the pronoun to make it more personal since you are talking about yourself here after all: "she's already a little bit jealous of level of self-control".


I agree it does sound 'holier than thou' never the less that doesn't mean it wasn't accurate. It's my duty to attempt to describe the situation as I perceived it. There's a difference between sounding 'holier than thou' when describing the situation on a forum and acting 'holier than thou' in real life. In real human relationships there are power differentials, this is a fact. Relationships constellate around these power sincs or power mountains although they are rarely spoken of directly. It has always been this way although in the most ancient hunter-gatherer times it was far more obvious. A romantic relationship can be a precarious balance of power. The feminine has certain power sources and the male other power sources. Why would a very physically attractive woman mate with a less physically attractive male ? Usually this is because he has some other source of power to offset his lack of physical attractiveness (I'm not saying I'm not physically attractive mind you this is just an example). In such a situation there can be a game of tug of war going on where the woman is trying to prove that her power approximates that of the male's. Many women like to feel slightly less powerful than their mate but not majorly so.
[...]
Many times it is impossible to describe such dynamics without sounding egotistical especially if you try to do it using very few words.

That's true. And there is truth to what you saw about power differentials. However, to be honest it sounds like an awful way to have a relationship. Sure, most people's relationships are like that, but that doesn't mean we have to go about mimicking them. Many people are lost in their own petty struggles but that doesn't mean we have to go about emulating that.

What do you seek to get out of your relationships with women? And what do you seek to get out of your spirituality? Does perpetuating the natural ingrained power differential between men & women by acting within that framework further your spiritual goals? And if not is there any way to reconcile that?

Hermetically Sealed:
If during the course of a relationship either lover unveils a previously concealed source of power which he cannot immediately share with his partner then the entire balance of the relationship has shifted and the partner has to reevaluate how she feels about the new dynamic. If the new power gradient is say, a million dollars earned from a winning lottery ticket, then it's not a problem because the winner can merely share the money with his mate, but when the new source of power is something spiritual then that can indeed cause problems because such power is not easily transferred. Some people are happy to see that their mate has a greater abundance of power than previously imagined, but for others it will be perceived as a loss of control, and many people feel like they need to have a certain amount of control in order to feel comfortable.

That makes sense. I see two potential solutions off the top of my head. One, be more upfront about your spiritual side. Once you figure out how to do it skilfully this will drive away the women who don't care about that or are put off by it. But that's great because it leaves the ones who do care about that. Thus you will be better off at finding a compatible mate. Two, find a mate who doesn't care about or want to perpetuate this power differential. This would also require you to no longer want to perpetuate that. Then you can work with them in tandem - not you wanting them to be more spiritual, nor them wanting you to be less spiritual, but both helping each other - to end the power differential between you two. This would lead to much intimacy and, it seems, a very harmonious and enjoyable relationship..

Hermetically Sealed:
Beoman Claudiu Dragon Emu Fire Golem:

I'm reminded of an old mailing list I read somewhere where someone was asking for advice on how to deal with women. He said he had problems with women because they were intimadated by his inteligence. Yes, he had tons of spelling errors in his post. It was fairly clear that actually he wasn't quite that intelligent, so it wasn't that women were intimidated by his intelligence but they were put off by him feeling like he was very intelligent when in fact he wasn't.


right on, point taken; What you say is true and these examples are real. With that said I do think that in many cases individuals really are intimidated by other individual's intelligence. To illustrate my point lets take an example that is common ground for both of us; a job interview at a web startup company. If you are the one being interviewed and your skillset and prior accomplishments are impressive then you are in danger of causing the other team members to worry that you might try to 'take over the lead' of the team when that may not necessarily be what they have in mind. Some team members might even be afraid that you will replace them or point out the shortcomings of their work. As the interviewee it is your task to not only prove that you are qualified for the job, but to also prove that you don't intend to wield your power in ways that may be perceived as threatening. I have personally witnessed many instances of people being intimidated by other people's intelligence in this scenario and it has caused many teams to pass up amazing talent and literally seek the mediocre thereby shooting the company in the foot while it is trying to get off the ground. A thoughtful CEO must be aware of this dynamic and always seek to counter this tendency in a skillful way. I have been the overzelous interviewee before who was oblivious to this dynamic and didn't get the position even though on paper he was the most qualified, and I have been a team member who helped counter this tendency and helped guide the team to a balanced solution. I'm a big fan of balanced solutions. There's no secret to balance, you just have to feel the waves.

Yes, people can be and are intimidated by intelligence. This is just another way that power differential manifests in relationships, except in this case it's between coworkers instead of lovers. Balance is an obvious solution to strive for but really it's just a band-aid solution, and it leads to less than ideal outcomes. It's more balanced to hire somebody who has the same level of expertise as everyone already there, but this just leads to mediocrity and failure. It's less balanced to hire somebody amazing and astounding who for whatever reason really takes an interest in the company and wants to help drive it to success, but that's going to lead to a far better result. Far better than balance would be to have a group of people not interested in this power dynamic. Or who are aware that it happens naturally but manage to put it aside or not buy into it and instead use sensibility and reasoning when making their decisions. It's not a binary thing - there's a gradient, and personally I'm working towards eliminating such things out of my life. People on the far end of the sensible spectrum are rare but it's well worth it to seek them out and make them a part of your life.

RE: need advice on how to hide insight progress.
Answer
8/20/13 5:01 PM as a reply to Beoman Claudiu Dragon Emu Fire Golem.
Beoman Claudiu Dragon Emu Fire Golem:


Hermetically Sealed:
Beoman Claudiu Dragon Emu Fire Golem:
Dood, all that is happening exactly because you have an air of "holier than thou". Look at the way you're describing the other, though I replaced the pronoun to make it more personal since you are talking about yourself here after all: "she's already a little bit jealous of level of self-control".


I agree it does sound 'holier than thou' never the less that doesn't mean it wasn't accurate. It's my duty to attempt to describe the situation as I perceived it. There's a difference between sounding 'holier than thou' when describing the situation on a forum and acting 'holier than thou' in real life. In real human relationships there are power differentials, this is a fact. Relationships constellate around these power sincs or power mountains although they are rarely spoken of directly. It has always been this way although in the most ancient hunter-gatherer times it was far more obvious. A romantic relationship can be a precarious balance of power. The feminine has certain power sources and the male other power sources. Why would a very physically attractive woman mate with a less physically attractive male ? Usually this is because he has some other source of power to offset his lack of physical attractiveness (I'm not saying I'm not physically attractive mind you this is just an example). In such a situation there can be a game of tug of war going on where the woman is trying to prove that her power approximates that of the male's. Many women like to feel slightly less powerful than their mate but not majorly so.
[...]
Many times it is impossible to describe such dynamics without sounding egotistical especially if you try to do it using very few words.

That's true. And there is truth to what you saw about power differentials. However, to be honest it sounds like an awful way to have a relationship. Sure, most people's relationships are like that, but that doesn't mean we have to go about mimicking them. Many people are lost in their own petty struggles but that doesn't mean we have to go about emulating that.


I would rather not mimic that power struggle dynamic but it would seem to be unavoidable at least at first meeting. During the first conversation the two potential lovers are sizing each other up. This phase is difficult to avoid because there is a real need for each lover to try to understand "what the other is made of" so to speak, for various practical reasons, at least it would seem so. This sizing-up usually goes on well past the first conversation. In many relationships what happens is this sizing up process eventually leads to each of the lovers constructing an image of the other psychologically, and it is this image that one comes to believe he or she has a relationship with. That image is put together by what you have said in praise of me or to insult me, what you have done to me – it is put together by all the memories I have of you – and your image of me is put together in the same way, and it is those images which have relationship and which prevent us from really communing with each other. It is only when we see without any preconception, any image, that we are able to be in direct contact with anything in life. All our relationships are really imaginary – that is, based on an image formed by thought. If I have an image about you and you have an image about me, naturally we don’t see each other at all as we actually are. What we see is the images we have formed about each other which prevent us from being in contact, and I believe that is why our relationships go wrong.

Love is something that is new, fresh, alive. It has no yesterday and no tomorrow. It is beyond the turmoil of thought. It is only the innocent mind which knows what love is, and the innocent mind can live in the world which is not innocent. To find this extraordinary thing which man has sought endlessly through sacrifice, through worship, through relationship, through sex, through every form of pleasure and pain, is only possible when thought comes to understand itself and comes naturally to an end. Then love has no opposite, then love has no conflict.

Love is not the product of thought which is the past. Thought cannot possibly cultivate love. Love is not hedged about and caught in jealousy, for jealousy is of the past. Love is always active present. It is not ‘I will love’ or ‘I have loved’. If you know love you will not follow anybody. Love does not obey. When you love there is neither respect nor disrespect.
-Jiddu Krishnamurti from the book “Freedom From the Known”


Beoman Claudiu Dragon Emu Fire Golem:

What do you seek to get out of your relationships with women? And what do you seek to get out of your spirituality?


Love, and the ability to be of service to other beings and thereby help myself. To help others is to help myself. Then I would like to disappear back into the void without leaving a trace.

Beoman Claudiu Dragon Emu Fire Golem:

Does perpetuating the natural ingrained power differential between men & women by acting within that framework further your spiritual goals? And if not is there any way to reconcile that?


That framework seems to be the protocol by which 'relationships' are established at this time in this society. I feel that I should first establish one of these normal relationships between man & woman and then within the context of that struggle perhaps I can find a way to lead the relationship out of the realm of struggle into a true Relationship which I see more as a choiceless awareness, acceptance, and compassion for each other as we actually exist now, and not as an image from the past which is tied up in thought and power dynamics. To me this approximates what I mean by Love.

Beoman Claudiu Dragon Emu Fire Golem:

Hermetically Sealed:
If during the course of a relationship either lover unveils a previously concealed source of power which he cannot immediately share with his partner then the entire balance of the relationship has shifted and the partner has to reevaluate how she feels about the new dynamic. If the new power gradient is say, a million dollars earned from a winning lottery ticket, then it's not a problem because the winner can merely share the money with his mate, but when the new source of power is something spiritual then that can indeed cause problems because such power is not easily transferred. Some people are happy to see that their mate has a greater abundance of power than previously imagined, but for others it will be perceived as a loss of control, and many people feel like they need to have a certain amount of control in order to feel comfortable.

That makes sense. I see two potential solutions off the top of my head. One, be more upfront about your spiritual side. Once you figure out how to do it skilfully this will drive away the women who don't care about that or are put off by it. But that's great because it leaves the ones who do care about that. Thus you will be better off at finding a compatible mate. Two, find a mate who doesn't care about or want to perpetuate this power differential. This would also require you to no longer want to perpetuate that. Then you can work with them in tandem - not you wanting them to be more spiritual, nor them wanting you to be less spiritual, but both helping each other - to end the power differential between you two. This would lead to much intimacy and, it seems, a very harmonious and enjoyable relationship..


That sounds like a plan, but this task of "finding a mate who doesn't care about or want to perpetuate this power differential." is easier said than done. This is because 'power politics' seems to be baked into the cultural protocol that establishes many things including how couples meet and start a relationship. My research and experience seems to indicate that the only practical thing to do is to first play the culturally mandated 'power politics' game a little bit, try to establish as much trust as possible, and then leverage that trust to somehow gradually ween the relationship off of this dangerous drug addiction to power dynamics. One problem with this approach is that the culture is working against me. A young lady's friends are going to be probing her about the power dynamics, continually re-indoctrinating her into the cult of feminine power worship, so to speak. This is problematic for many reasons. Of course over on the male side I will be experiencing the same thing from my friends even the spiritual ones will be trying to make sure that I'm not "giving my power away" and "being taken advantage of by an undeserving woman". I like to think that I've developed for myself a spiritual immune system which gives rejection to this life-as-a-power-struggle worldview which has been grafted upon me from birth through social conditioning, but that was not an easy accomplishment to say the least, so I can hardly expect to be able to easily find a woman who has done likewise, nor would it be reasonable for me to expect a woman to instantly transform herself in such a way, hense the challenge.

Beoman Claudiu Dragon Emu Fire Golem:

Hermetically Sealed:
Beoman Claudiu Dragon Emu Fire Golem:

I'm reminded of an old mailing list I read somewhere where someone was asking for advice on how to deal with women. He said he had problems with women because they were intimadated by his inteligence. Yes, he had tons of spelling errors in his post. It was fairly clear that actually he wasn't quite that intelligent, so it wasn't that women were intimidated by his intelligence but they were put off by him feeling like he was very intelligent when in fact he wasn't.


right on, point taken; What you say is true and these examples are real. With that said I do think that in many cases individuals really are intimidated by other individual's intelligence. To illustrate my point lets take an example that is common ground for both of us; a job interview at a web startup company. If you are the one being interviewed and your skillset and prior accomplishments are impressive then you are in danger of causing the other team members to worry that you might try to 'take over the lead' of the team when that may not necessarily be what they have in mind. Some team members might even be afraid that you will replace them or point out the shortcomings of their work. As the interviewee it is your task to not only prove that you are qualified for the job, but to also prove that you don't intend to wield your power in ways that may be perceived as threatening. I have personally witnessed many instances of people being intimidated by other people's intelligence in this scenario and it has caused many teams to pass up amazing talent and literally seek the mediocre thereby shooting the company in the foot while it is trying to get off the ground. A thoughtful CEO must be aware of this dynamic and always seek to counter this tendency in a skillful way. I have been the overzelous interviewee before who was oblivious to this dynamic and didn't get the position even though on paper he was the most qualified, and I have been a team member who helped counter this tendency and helped guide the team to a balanced solution. I'm a big fan of balanced solutions. There's no secret to balance, you just have to feel the waves.

Yes, people can be and are intimidated by intelligence. This is just another way that power differential manifests in relationships, except in this case it's between coworkers instead of lovers. Balance is an obvious solution to strive for but really it's just a band-aid solution, and it leads to less than ideal outcomes. It's more balanced to hire somebody who has the same level of expertise as everyone already there, but this just leads to mediocrity and failure. It's less balanced to hire somebody amazing and astounding who for whatever reason really takes an interest in the company and wants to help drive it to success, but that's going to lead to a far better result. Far better than balance would be to have a group of people not interested in this power dynamic. Or who are aware that it happens naturally but manage to put it aside or not buy into it and instead use sensibility and reasoning when making their decisions. It's not a binary thing - there's a gradient, and personally I'm working towards eliminating such things out of my life. People on the far end of the sensible spectrum are rare but it's well worth it to seek them out and make them a part of your life.


I'm glad to hear an indication that you believe such people exist and that you yourself are trying to be such a person; that gives me hope. I will contemplate your advice in a most serious way, thank you.

RE: need advice on how to hide insight progress.
Answer
8/20/13 6:20 PM as a reply to Hermetically Sealed.
Quit pretending to try and be like everyone else. That screams of lack of confidence. Be yourself. Let everyone else be the moths and you be the candle.

The one common trait that EVERYONE finds attractive is confidence. And confidence really boils down to being comfortable in your own skin. Stop trying to pretend to be something your not, in hopes that others will like you. Be who you are, and if others don't except it, F$ck em.

You'll be surprised how much more everyone will like you (especially women) if you generally don't care whether they like you or not.

RE: need advice on how to hide insight progress.
Answer
8/20/13 7:12 PM as a reply to Jinxed P.
Jinxed P:
Quit pretending to try and be like everyone else. That screams of lack of confidence. Be yourself. Let everyone else be the moths and you be the candle.

The one common trait that EVERYONE finds attractive is confidence. And confidence really boils down to being comfortable in your own skin. Stop trying to pretend to be something your not, in hopes that others will like you. Be who you are, and if others don't except it, F$ck em.

You'll be surprised how much more everyone will like you (especially women) if you generally don't care whether they like you or not.


What you say is good advice in general when it comes to dating and even work relationships. You are giving the standard "dating coach" advice. The only time when I feel that it no longer applies is after insight awareness creates a profound inner change. At this point "be yourself" is no longer good advice because yourself is now incompatible with what is socially acceptable. The truth is that most women want a "normal guy" with exceptional confidence and not an exceptional guy with exceptional confidence.

First they need to feel that they understand you, can relate to you, this is primary. This is where the "normal guy" part comes in and THEN they want to feel that you have confidence, humor, and strength on top of that. If you don't display the "normal guy" characteristics consistently then you will scare them. The ones that aren't afraid will begin to make you into some kind of authority figure, put you up on a pedestal, or try to make you into their personal guru even if you insist that they don't do so. Therefor you have to act, you have to play the "normal guy" with exceptional confidence role and only let them catch small glimpses of your real personality during times when you think they can handle it, and every time you show them your true self it is a major risk. This is just a fact of life it seems.

Those Arhats who occupy this forum I'm sure are doing this kind of acting all the time, but they are so used to it that they don't think to mention directly that they are doing it, because it almost sounds like bragging. Never the less this is one of the only forums I know of to discuss such phenomena so I don't think what I've said is unreasonable even though it will surely ruffle some feathers.

tl;dr : inner change has consequences as well as rewards.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uRQIic97g6U

RE: need advice on how to hide insight progress.
Answer
8/20/13 7:15 PM as a reply to Hermetically Sealed.

RE: need advice on how to hide insight progress.
Answer
8/20/13 7:38 PM as a reply to Matthew.
*bow*


Venerable sir,
You are correct. It is a waste of time to point out the added difficulties that can result from living the holy life because the taste of freedom offsets these inconveniences by an infinite amount; therefor such problems are not worth dwelling on for even a moment how much less so for a whole thread. Thank you for the teaching.

RE: need advice on how to hide insight progress.
Answer
8/20/13 8:09 PM as a reply to Hermetically Sealed.
Hermetically Sealed:
Jinxed P:
Quit pretending to try and be like everyone else. That screams of lack of confidence. Be yourself. Let everyone else be the moths and you be the candle.

The one common trait that EVERYONE finds attractive is confidence. And confidence really boils down to being comfortable in your own skin. Stop trying to pretend to be something your not, in hopes that others will like you. Be who you are, and if others don't except it, F$ck em.

You'll be surprised how much more everyone will like you (especially women) if you generally don't care whether they like you or not.


What you say is good advice in general when it comes to dating and even work relationships. You are giving the standard "dating coach" advice. The only time when I feel that it no longer applies is after insight awareness creates a profound inner change. At this point "be yourself" is no longer good advice because yourself is now incompatible with what is socially acceptable. The truth is that most women want a "normal guy" with exceptional confidence and not an exceptional guy with exceptional confidence.

First they need to feel that they understand you, can relate to you, this is primary. This is where the "normal guy" part comes in and THEN they want to feel that you have confidence, humor, and strength on top of that. If you don't display the "normal guy" characteristics consistently then you will scare them. The ones that aren't afraid will begin to make you into some kind of authority figure, put you up on a pedestal, or try to make you into their personal guru even if you insist that they don't do so. Therefor you have to act, you have to play the "normal guy" with exceptional confidence role and only let them catch small glimpses of your real personality during times when you think they can handle it, and every time you show them your true self it is a major risk. This is just a fact of life it seems.

Those Arhats who occupy this forum I'm sure are doing this kind of acting all the time, but they are so used to it that they don't think to mention directly that they are doing it, because it almost sounds like bragging. Never the less this is one of the only forums I know of to discuss such phenomena so I don't think what I've said is unreasonable even though it will surely ruffle some feathers.

tl;dr : inner change has consequences as well as rewards.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uRQIic97g6U


You are probably a lot farther along the path than I am, so I don't disagree that there may be some unforeseen difficulties regarding being able to relate to another etc..

But I'm not sure that women are most attracted to 'normal' guys with exceptional confidence instead of exceptional guys with exceptional confidence. Or that you must act in 'socially acceptable ways'. Think about some of the most sought after males of all time. They definitely weren't 'normal'. And they definitely acted in ways that were socially unacceptable, or at least had lives that most people could not relate to.

Think guys like Prince, Dennis Rodman, Johnny Depp, Mick Jagger, Elvis, Brando, JFK, hell..Genghis Khan. These are considered the most attractive men of all time, and none of them can be described as 'normal', nor did any of them act in socially acceptable ways. They all blazed their own path. That is what made them cool.

The person who acts in socially unacceptable ways, but lacks confidence is considered a weirdo.
The person who acts in socially unacceptable ways but exudes confidence is considered cool.

Have you really found that women put you on a pedestal and consider you an authority figure? And if so, is this a bad thing?

Now of course the way that you are exceptional is obviously very different than the way someone like Mick Jagger is exceptional. But do you really think women would have a harder time relating to you than Mick Jagger?

I really think if you just 'owned' it. You would be better off than trying to pretend to be normal.

RE: need advice on how to hide insight progress.
Answer
8/20/13 9:32 PM as a reply to Jinxed P.
Jinxed P:
Hermetically Sealed:
Jinxed P:
Quit pretending to try and be like everyone else. That screams of lack of confidence. Be yourself. Let everyone else be the moths and you be the candle.

The one common trait that EVERYONE finds attractive is confidence. And confidence really boils down to being comfortable in your own skin. Stop trying to pretend to be something your not, in hopes that others will like you. Be who you are, and if others don't except it, F$ck em.

You'll be surprised how much more everyone will like you (especially women) if you generally don't care whether they like you or not.


What you say is good advice in general when it comes to dating and even work relationships. You are giving the standard "dating coach" advice. The only time when I feel that it no longer applies is after insight awareness creates a profound inner change. At this point "be yourself" is no longer good advice because yourself is now incompatible with what is socially acceptable. The truth is that most women want a "normal guy" with exceptional confidence and not an exceptional guy with exceptional confidence.

First they need to feel that they understand you, can relate to you, this is primary. This is where the "normal guy" part comes in and THEN they want to feel that you have confidence, humor, and strength on top of that. If you don't display the "normal guy" characteristics consistently then you will scare them. The ones that aren't afraid will begin to make you into some kind of authority figure, put you up on a pedestal, or try to make you into their personal guru even if you insist that they don't do so. Therefor you have to act, you have to play the "normal guy" with exceptional confidence role and only let them catch small glimpses of your real personality during times when you think they can handle it, and every time you show them your true self it is a major risk. This is just a fact of life it seems.

Those Arhats who occupy this forum I'm sure are doing this kind of acting all the time, but they are so used to it that they don't think to mention directly that they are doing it, because it almost sounds like bragging. Never the less this is one of the only forums I know of to discuss such phenomena so I don't think what I've said is unreasonable even though it will surely ruffle some feathers.

tl;dr : inner change has consequences as well as rewards.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uRQIic97g6U


You are probably a lot farther along the path than I am, so I don't disagree that there may be some unforeseen difficulties regarding being able to relate to another etc..

But I'm not sure that women are most attracted to 'normal' guys with exceptional confidence instead of exceptional guys with exceptional confidence. Or that you must act in 'socially acceptable ways'. Think about some of the most sought after males of all time. They definitely weren't 'normal'. And they definitely acted in ways that were socially unacceptable, or at least had lives that most people could not relate to.

Think guys like Prince, Dennis Rodman, Johnny Depp, Mick Jagger, Elvis, Brando, JFK, hell..Genghis Khan. These are considered the most attractive men of all time, and none of them can be described as 'normal', nor did any of them act in socially acceptable ways. They all blazed their own path. That is what made them cool.

The person who acts in socially unacceptable ways, but lacks confidence is considered a weirdo.
The person who acts in socially unacceptable ways but exudes confidence is considered cool.

Have you really found that women put you on a pedestal and consider you an authority figure? And if so, is this a bad thing?

Now of course the way that you are exceptional is obviously very different than the way someone like Mick Jagger is exceptional. But do you really think women would have a harder time relating to you than Mick Jagger?


I am worried that this thread may have started to take on undertones of "whining" and I find that regrettable and that makes me hesitant to continue with it at all, but I have a feeling that perhaps talking about these issues may ultimately help some people so I will go ahead and give my thoughts on this.

There is a difference between those famous people you mention, and what I am talking about. Let me give you an imaginary example that is purposefully extreme so as to better illustrate the point, do not take this as a literal example.

Imagine if your normal state of being you radiated a white light from all around you. In a sense this is actually true
(http://www.greenmedinfo.com/blog/biophotons-human-body-emits-communicates-and-made-light
http://www.google.com/search?q=biophoton)

but for the sake of generating an extreme albeit unrealistic example lets say that you emitted far more light than most people do so that you give the appearance that your body literally glows in the dark. If you were to walk down a crowded street like that you would draw a huge mob to you. You would grab everyone's attention. Scientists would want to probe you, religious people would want to worship you, opportunists would want to leverage you to make a fortune, and regular old everyday people would want to gawk at you. You would be exceptional, but not exceptional in the sense of JFK, Elvis, or Dennis Rodman, but exceptional in the sense that your very presence causes people to question their first assumptions about reality which immediately sends them into a kind of psychological shock. Once they realize it's not fake they go into shock because they don't know how to relate to it, and the implications mean so much. They then have to wonder.. "do I have the potential to be like that too or is he special ? is he even a human being ? If I have the potential to be like that why aren't I like that ? If I hang around him can I learn his secret ? "

People would think you are exceptional not because of what you are doing or saying, but rather just because you radiate a certain energy that they are not used to. Everyone notices it, how can they not notice it ? Those who realize it's not some kind of stage illusion either become afraid or go into some kind of shock. Is this really the kind of man that is going to be able to have successful love relationships ? Do women really want to be with "a freak of nature" ? No they want to be with normal guys who are exceptionally confident, such as JFK, football players, etc. They don't want to be with someone who will be mistaken for the second coming of Christ, or the antichrist, or an alien, or whatever else, and those women who do want to be with such a being are the kind of women who have some hidden agenda.

What I'm proposing is that a fully awakened being (which I am not claiming to be) is akin to this glow in the dark man. He will make everyone around him question their core assumptions about life without even trying to do so, and this will effect everyone in a different way. Some people will have spontaneous religious experiences just by being in his presence for a short period of time. It would be easy for him to start some kind of religion, cult, or whatever, but not easy for him to have normal romantic relationships, not unless he seriously figures out how to dim that light back down so that it's not perceptible.

Now what happens if this glow in the dark man does dim his light down, plays the role of a normal person perfectly, falls in love with a woman and then much later in the relationship he's getting out of the shower and he didn't realize it but he forgot to dim his glow, and all of a sudden his wife sees him radiating this light. She might think she is going crazy. It might cause her to go seek psychological help, but I will tell you what the most likely scenario would be. The most likely scenario is that she would repress the experience, literally forget that it happened, block it out, but then she would subconsciously be afraid of you from then on, she would seek a way to end the relationship, seek some other excuse to end it based solely on her repressed fear. She would feel like you betrayed her, that you presented yourself as normal, but in reality you're not, so she would deep down feel justified in finding some excuse to end the relationship. This kind of phenomena has been well studied this is how people react to shock.

What I'm suggesting is that a fully awakened being is a LITTLE BIT like this. To show your fully awakened consciousness personality to another is to risk sending them into some kind of shock, it's to risk making them question their core assumptions about who they are, and who you are, and what life is all about. It is a whole other ball game compared to what even the most extreme celebrities are dealing with. If you don't like the glow in the dark example just replace "glow in the dark" with something else like "has a visible halo over his head", or "floats 5 inches above the ground", etc. Again (obviously) this is an extreme example just to illustrate the point I am not claiming any kind of paranormal status. I really do think the example illustrates the point though.

RE: need advice on how to hide insight progress.
Answer
8/20/13 10:03 PM as a reply to Hermetically Sealed.
Hermetically sealed,

What I'm proposing is that a fully awakened being (which I am not claiming to be) is akin to this glow in the dark man. He will make everyone around him question their core assumptions about life without even trying to do so, and this will effect everyone in a different way. Some people will have spontaneous religious experiences just by being in his presence for a short period of time


And can you point to me anyone in real life who is like this? Because I have never heard of such a man, other than perhaps the legendary stories of the Buddha. I think you are aggrandizing this whole 'fully awakened being' thing.

Daniel Ingram says that his wife finds nothing extraordinary about him at all. He says no one ever asks him 'what's your secret?'. He has a normal job and people aren't going into shock around him.

B.Alan Wallace has a wife, he can teach in schools, have conversations with people and no one would be the wiser to the fact of his high attainments.

The Dalai Lama is said to exude compassion that is palpable in his presence but people aren't having religious experiences around him. They aren't going into psychological trauma and questioning their take on reality.

One of the most famous Tibetan saints of all time was Drukpa Kunley, who would walk into a new town and ask where he could get the best tasting beer and find the prettiest women around to sleep with.

What I'm suggesting is that a fully awakened being is a LITTLE BIT like this. To show your fully awakened consciousness personality to another is to risk sending them into some kind of shock, it's to risk making them question their core assumptions about who they are, and who you are, and what life is all about



I've never heard of people going into shock around buddhist monks. I have, however, seen women faint and go into spasms in the presence of Mick Jagger.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OezHRns06-8

No one on this forum is exuding that kind of presence that causes shock in other people. Recently, there was a podcast on Buddhist Geeks about a scientist who went about finding all these enlightened people and studying them. He said if you had them in a room with a bunch of other people you would not be able to tell who was enlightened and who wasn't. They blend in just like everyone else.

RE: need advice on how to hide insight progress.
Answer
8/20/13 11:14 PM as a reply to Jinxed P.
Jinxed P:

No one on this forum is exuding that kind of presence that causes shock in other people. Recently, there was a podcast on Buddhist Geeks about a scientist who went about finding all these enlightened people and studying them. He said if you had them in a room with a bunch of other people you would not be able to tell who was enlightened and who wasn't. They blend in just like everyone else.


First off some scientist is not going to be able to identify who the enlightened beings really are, and those who have a public persona built around being enlightened are almost universally not the real thing. I suspect Daniel is an exception to that rule but I've never met him. I strongly suspect that enlightenment is a much more rare phenomena than Daniel lets on; he is perhaps trying to save people their feelings. You are correct though that many enlightened beings have the ability to blend in just like everyone else. It's kind of like acting except it also requires a magical act of will to 'dim the light' until it approximates the light that other beings are used to.

This acting becomes second nature to awakened beings, so much so that the only time their light ever shines anywhere near full capacity is when they are alone with other awakened beings. This dimming is done on purpose in order to avoid manifesting all of the negative consequences noted previously. Some of these beings aren't even consciously aware that they are engaged in this dimming process but for others it requires much more conscious effort. Those awakened beings who don't blend in often end up being institutionalized or worse. All of this is very taboo to talk about of course and I don't feel like going on and on about it. I obviously can't prove any of this I'm just stating my opinion for those who are interested and have ears to hear.

Note that I never said that enlightened beings can't have wives and blend in I'm just claiming that it requires an act of will in order to resynchronize with the level at which normal people are operating which is a bit like acting. Those who know what I'm talking about will know what I'm talking about. Note that you don't have to achieve full awakening in order to understand what I mean, for some people this becomes necessary right after SE.

RE: need advice on how to hide insight progress.
Answer
8/20/13 11:23 PM as a reply to Hermetically Sealed.
Hermetically Sealed:
There is a difference between those famous people you mention, and what I am talking about. Let me give you an imaginary example that is purposefully extreme so as to better illustrate the point, do not take this as a literal example.

Imagine if your normal state of being you radiated a white light from all around you. In a sense this is actually true
(http://www.greenmedinfo.com/blog/biophotons-human-body-emits-communicates-and-made-light
http://www.google.com/search?q=biophoton)

but for the sake of generating an extreme albeit unrealistic example lets say that you emitted far more light than most people do so that you give the appearance that your body literally glows in the dark. If you were to walk down a crowded street like that you would draw a huge mob to you. You would grab everyone's attention. Scientists would want to probe you, religious people would want to worship you, opportunists would want to leverage you to make a fortune, and regular old everyday people would want to gawk at you. You would be exceptional, but not exceptional in the sense of JFK, Elvis, or Dennis Rodman, but exceptional in the sense that your very presence causes people to question their first assumptions about reality which immediately sends them into a kind of psychological shock. Once they realize it's not fake they go into shock because they don't know how to relate to it, and the implications mean so much. They then have to wonder.. "do I have the potential to be like that too or is he special ? is he even a human being ? If I have the potential to be like that why aren't I like that ? If I hang around him can I learn his secret ? "

People would think you are exceptional not because of what you are doing or saying, but rather just because you radiate a certain energy that they are not used to. Everyone notices it, how can they not notice it ? Those who realize it's not some kind of stage illusion either become afraid or go into some kind of shock. Is this really the kind of man that is going to be able to have successful love relationships ? Do women really want to be with "a freak of nature" ? No they want to be with normal guys who are exceptionally confident, such as JFK, football players, etc. They don't want to be with someone who will be mistaken for the second coming of Christ, or the antichrist, or an alien, or whatever else, and those women who do want to be with such a being are the kind of women who have some hidden agenda.

What I'm proposing is that a fully awakened being (which I am not claiming to be) is akin to this glow in the dark man. He will make everyone around him question their core assumptions about life without even trying to do so, and this will effect everyone in a different way. Some people will have spontaneous religious experiences just by being in his presence for a short period of time. It would be easy for him to start some kind of religion, cult, or whatever, but not easy for him to have normal romantic relationships, not unless he seriously figures out how to dim that light back down so that it's not perceptible.

Now what happens if this glow in the dark man does dim his light down, plays the role of a normal person perfectly, falls in love with a woman and then much later in the relationship he's getting out of the shower and he didn't realize it but he forgot to dim his glow, and all of a sudden his wife sees him radiating this light. She might think she is going crazy. It might cause her to go seek psychological help, but I will tell you what the most likely scenario would be. The most likely scenario is that she would repress the experience, literally forget that it happened, block it out, but then she would subconsciously be afraid of you from then on, she would seek a way to end the relationship, seek some other excuse to end it based solely on her repressed fear. She would feel like you betrayed her, that you presented yourself as normal, but in reality you're not, so she would deep down feel justified in finding some excuse to end the relationship. This kind of phenomena has been well studied this is how people react to shock.

What I'm suggesting is that a fully awakened being is a LITTLE BIT like this. To show your fully awakened consciousness personality to another is to risk sending them into some kind of shock, it's to risk making them question their core assumptions about who they are, and who you are, and what life is all about. It is a whole other ball game compared to what even the most extreme celebrities are dealing with. If you don't like the glow in the dark example just replace "glow in the dark" with something else like "has a visible halo over his head", or "floats 5 inches above the ground", etc. Again (obviously) this is an extreme example just to illustrate the point I am not claiming any kind of paranormal status. I really do think the example illustrates the point though.

Fuck man, you have a good point. I think it's actually a lot like that, except instead of a visible light aura which would be bloody obvious to everybody, it's an invisible affective aura which is only felt intuitively. So those more in tune with their feelings would notice it, while others would repress the feeling aspect or ignore it and explain it via other means like body language or something. Essentially it's the same phenomenon as when someone is very charismatic and has a large 'presence', except multiplied by a factor of a lot.

Basically you're asking how can you perform the equivalent of the Dragon Ball Z trick of hiding your power level. I'm not sure if any fully enlightened being has really cared to try, before. The Buddha certainly didn't. If the Pali Canon is historically accurate, he said the following to literally the first people he saw after getting enlightened:

'All-vanquishing,
all-knowing am I,
with regard to all things,
unadhering.
All-abandoning,
released in the ending of craving:
having fully known on my own,
to whom should I point as my teacher? [4]

I have no teacher,
and one like me can't be found.
In the world with its devas,
I have no counterpart.

For I am an arahant in the world;
I, the unexcelled teacher.
I, alone, am rightly self-awakened.
Cooled am I, unbound.

To set rolling the wheel of Dhamma
I go to the city of Kasi.
In a world become blind,
I beat the drum of the Deathless.'

Personally things like this are why I no longer think enlightenment is the solution I am looking for. It doesn't eliminate the power struggle or power dynamics we were talking about earlier. It just puts you right at the top, and gives you the task of then going about figuring out how to get other people up to where you are. But it's inherently uneven. And quite rare, as you said. Is it really a solution that will lead to peace on earth? Enlightenment has already been around for a few thousand years. Buddha wasn't the first one, and he said so himself. Yet humanity is still in a pretty shitty state. All the enlightened people before you have failed to save humanity. It seems to just perpetuate it, if the power dynamic thing is part of the problem, for example - which I think it is.

RE: need advice on how to hide insight progress.
Answer
8/21/13 2:38 AM as a reply to Beoman Claudiu Dragon Emu Fire Golem.
Beoman Claudiu Dragon Emu Fire Golem:
Hermetically Sealed:

[...] *snip* [...]
What I'm suggesting is that a fully awakened being is a LITTLE BIT like this. To show your fully awakened consciousness personality to another is to risk sending them into some kind of shock, it's to risk making them question their core assumptions about who they are, and who you are, and what life is all about. It is a whole other ball game compared to what even the most extreme celebrities are dealing with. If you don't like the glow in the dark example just replace "glow in the dark" with something else like "has a visible halo over his head", or "floats 5 inches above the ground", etc. Again (obviously) this is an extreme example just to illustrate the point I am not claiming any kind of paranormal status. I really do think the example illustrates the point though.


Fuck man, you have a good point. I think it's actually a lot like that, except instead of a visible light aura which would be bloody obvious to everybody, it's an invisible affective aura which is only felt intuitively. So those more in tune with their feelings would notice it, while others would repress the feeling aspect or ignore it and explain it via other means like body language or something. Essentially it's the same phenomenon as when someone is very charismatic and has a large 'presence', except multiplied by a factor of a lot.


Precisely although I suspect that this 'invisible affective aura' which can only be felt intuitively is perhaps only the leakage that escapes from the sheath in which the awakened being veils himself to dim his radiance. In theory it's possible that if the awakened being were to completely withdraw his sword from the stone, so to speak then a much broader spectrum of energies may be radiated including but not limited to visible light. This might explain the Light symbolism in Buddhism, Christianity, and Freemasonry to name a few traditions who associate Light with the awakening of consciousness. Keep in mind that all I'm doing here is playing with concepts from mainstream religion for the sake of a thought exercise. For me it's as you say an 'invisible affective aura' that may or may not be 100% psychological. For the Buddha however perhaps there really was an effect in the range of visible light or beyond. As the Buddha says at one point in describing his Awakening, "Ignorance was destroyed; knowledge arose; darkness was destroyed; light arose — as happens in one who is heedful, ardent, and resolute."

Beoman Claudiu Dragon Emu Fire Golem:

Basically you're asking how can you perform the equivalent of the Dragon Ball Z trick of hiding your power level. I'm not sure if any fully enlightened being has really cared to try, before. The Buddha certainly didn't. If the Pali Canon is historically accurate, he said the following to literally the first people he saw after getting enlightened:

'All-vanquishing,
all-knowing am I,
with regard to all things,
unadhering.
All-abandoning,
released in the ending of craving:
having fully known on my own,
to whom should I point as my teacher? [4]

I have no teacher,
and one like me can't be found.
In the world with its devas,
I have no counterpart.

For I am an arahant in the world;
I, the unexcelled teacher.
I, alone, am rightly self-awakened.
Cooled am I, unbound.

To set rolling the wheel of Dhamma
I go to the city of Kasi.
In a world become blind,
I beat the drum of the Deathless.'


Personally things like this are why I no longer think enlightenment is the solution I am looking for. It doesn't eliminate the power struggle or power dynamics we were talking about earlier. It just puts you right at the top, and gives you the task of then going about figuring out how to get other people up to where you are. But it's inherently uneven. And quite rare, as you said. Is it really a solution that will lead to peace on earth? Enlightenment has already been around for a few thousand years. Buddha wasn't the first one, and he said so himself. Yet humanity is still in a pretty shitty state. All the enlightened people before you have failed to save humanity. It seems to just perpetuate it, if the power dynamic thing is part of the problem, for example - which I think it is.


I agree that humanity is in a pretty shitty state, but what if there is some hidden relationship between awakened consciousness, Light, and the 'meat an potatoes' power dynamics of the real world ? Isn't such a paradigm what most of the Abrahamic religions are claiming is the case ? If you think about it isn't most of the world's population operating under the assumption that there is going to be a Master who shows up and in some way uses his power of awakened consciousness to forge global peace and start up a new golden age ? In these traditions that Master is always associated with light symbolism and with spiritual development. Now that does sound very Dragon Ball Z but so do many events in the Bible, and in the Pali cannon for that matter. None of these cartoon like speculations have anything to do with my own personal reason for seeking awakening of course but since you brought up DBZ I thought I'd play along. emoticon

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7ovFZEHs2EU

RE: need advice on how to hide insight progress.
Answer
8/21/13 11:47 AM as a reply to Hermetically Sealed.
Hermetically Sealed:
Beoman Claudiu Dragon Emu Fire Golem:
Fuck man, you have a good point. I think it's actually a lot like that, except instead of a visible light aura which would be bloody obvious to everybody, it's an invisible affective aura which is only felt intuitively. So those more in tune with their feelings would notice it, while others would repress the feeling aspect or ignore it and explain it via other means like body language or something. Essentially it's the same phenomenon as when someone is very charismatic and has a large 'presence', except multiplied by a factor of a lot.


Precisely although I suspect that this 'invisible affective aura' which can only be felt intuitively is perhaps only the leakage that escapes from the sheath in which the awakened being veils himself to dim his radiance. In theory it's possible that if the awakened being were to completely withdraw his sword from the stone, so to speak then a much broader spectrum of energies may be radiated including but not limited to visible light. This might explain the Light symbolism in Buddhism, Christianity, and Freemasonry to name a few traditions who associate Light with the awakening of consciousness. Keep in mind that all I'm doing here is playing with concepts from mainstream religion for the sake of a thought exercise. For me it's as you say an 'invisible affective aura' that may or may not be 100% psychological. For the Buddha however perhaps there really was an effect in the range of visible light or beyond. As the Buddha says at one point in describing his Awakening, "Ignorance was destroyed; knowledge arose; darkness was destroyed; light arose — as happens in one who is heedful, ardent, and resolute."

Personally I think any experiences of visible light being emitted would be strictly psychic - that is, hallucinatory - in nature. I'm reminded of a street magician that some of my family members witnessed. They all saw, with their very own eyes, the street magician levitating a plate! All of them except for my great-grandfather, that is, who was hard of hearing and didn't understand what was going on. For him, the plate didn't move at all. That is, in actuality, the plate never moved - everyone else was just somehow drawn into this consensual hallucination by the street magician. It seems it would be the same sort of thing with radiating light. The Saints and Saviours are said to radiate light that, just as the sun is brighter than the moon, so too are they brighter than the sun, yet it's not a physical, actual light, just this psychic hallucination.

Hermetically Sealed:
Beoman Claudiu Dragon Emu Fire Golem:
Personally things like this are why I no longer think enlightenment is the solution I am looking for. It doesn't eliminate the power struggle or power dynamics we were talking about earlier. It just puts you right at the top, and gives you the task of then going about figuring out how to get other people up to where you are. But it's inherently uneven. And quite rare, as you said. Is it really a solution that will lead to peace on earth? Enlightenment has already been around for a few thousand years. Buddha wasn't the first one, and he said so himself. Yet humanity is still in a pretty shitty state. All the enlightened people before you have failed to save humanity. It seems to just perpetuate it, if the power dynamic thing is part of the problem, for example - which I think it is.


I agree that humanity is in a pretty shitty state, but what if there is some hidden relationship between awakened consciousness, Light, and the 'meat an potatoes' power dynamics of the real world ? Isn't such a paradigm what most of the Abrahamic religions are claiming is the case ? If you think about it isn't most of the world's population operating under the assumption that there is going to be a Master who shows up and in some way uses his power of awakened consciousness to forge global peace and start up a new golden age ? In these traditions that Master is always associated with light symbolism and with spiritual development. Now that does sound very Dragon Ball Z but so do many events in the Bible, and in the Pali cannon for that matter. None of these cartoon like speculations have anything to do with my own personal reason for seeking awakening of course but since you brought up DBZ I thought I'd play along. emoticon

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7ovFZEHs2EU

Hehe. It's more fun to have a sense of humor about all this.

I agree that most of the world seems to be operating under this assumption. And where has that gotten us? Nowhere. We as humans are not that much closer to global peace and harmony than we were thousands of years ago. We're not even closer to interpersonal peace and harmony... how many couples have persistent strife in their relationships? If one man and one woman can't get along then how can the whole human race be expected to?

So I agree that there is a relationship between awakened consciousness and the 'meat and potatoes' power dynamics of the real world. The relationship is one of the denizens of the real world looking up to and placing on a pedestal and surrendering to this awakened consciousness. Yet this does not eliminate those power dynamics. It just perpetuates them, and perhaps even intensifies them, focusing them all on the awakened consciousness. Since the power dynamics are the problem in the first place, how will that lead to global peace and harmony?

So maybe the problem is that people are all waiting for a Savior. There have been many Saviors already and they haven't managed to save much, yet. Perhaps instead of perpetuating this global meme by becoming the next Savior and slipping right into it, it's time for everybody to throw away this notion of waiting for a Savior and go about helping themselves.

In any case, I don't want to be the next Savior. Screw that! I'd rather be cheery and anonymous, enjoying my time with whomever I am interacting with, without having to deal with 'me' being better than 'them' or 'them' being jealous of 'me' or 'them' surrendering to 'me' or placing 'me' on a pedestal or 'me' trying to save 'them' etc. That all sounds mighty dramatic and not ultimately very pleasant.

RE: need advice on how to hide insight progress.
Answer
8/21/13 4:06 PM as a reply to Hermetically Sealed.
Hermetically Sealed:
Jinxed P:

No one on this forum is exuding that kind of presence that causes shock in other people. Recently, there was a podcast on Buddhist Geeks about a scientist who went about finding all these enlightened people and studying them. He said if you had them in a room with a bunch of other people you would not be able to tell who was enlightened and who wasn't. They blend in just like everyone else.


First off some scientist is not going to be able to identify who the enlightened beings really are, and those who have a public persona built around being enlightened are almost universally not the real thing. I suspect Daniel is an exception to that rule but I've never met him. I strongly suspect that enlightenment is a much more rare phenomena than Daniel lets on; he is perhaps trying to save people their feelings. You are correct though that many enlightened beings have the ability to blend in just like everyone else. It's kind of like acting except it also requires a magical act of will to 'dim the light' until it approximates the light that other beings are used to.

This acting becomes second nature to awakened beings, so much so that the only time their light ever shines anywhere near full capacity is when they are alone with other awakened beings. This dimming is done on purpose in order to avoid manifesting all of the negative consequences noted previously. Some of these beings aren't even consciously aware that they are engaged in this dimming process but for others it requires much more conscious effort. Those awakened beings who don't blend in often end up being institutionalized or worse. All of this is very taboo to talk about of course and I don't feel like going on and on about it. I obviously can't prove any of this I'm just stating my opinion for those who are interested and have ears to hear.

Note that I never said that enlightened beings can't have wives and blend in I'm just claiming that it requires an act of will in order to resynchronize with the level at which normal people are operating which is a bit like acting. Those who know what I'm talking about will know what I'm talking about. Note that you don't have to achieve full awakening in order to understand what I mean, for some people this becomes necessary right after SE.


Before bashing the scientist, you listen to the podcast here. He's a Harvard trained social psychologist and it was very difficult for him to find people for this study. They are almost exclusively NOT people with a public persona.

http://www.buddhistgeeks.com/2011/07/bg-225-the-end-of-self-referencing/


Anyway, if you can prove anything..Simply point to one being who has such a 'light' that it causes shock in other people. Just point to a single example. I think it would be cool if you could reach a state where people exuded such an aura...but I have seen no evidence that this is really possible.

RE: need advice on how to hide insight progress.
Answer
8/21/13 7:03 PM as a reply to Beoman Claudiu Dragon Emu Fire Golem.
Beoman Claudiu Dragon Emu Fire Golem:
Hermetically Sealed:
Beoman Claudiu Dragon Emu Fire Golem:
Fuck man, you have a good point. I think it's actually a lot like that, except instead of a visible light aura which would be bloody obvious to everybody, it's an invisible affective aura which is only felt intuitively. So those more in tune with their feelings would notice it, while others would repress the feeling aspect or ignore it and explain it via other means like body language or something. Essentially it's the same phenomenon as when someone is very charismatic and has a large 'presence', except multiplied by a factor of a lot.


Precisely although I suspect that this 'invisible affective aura' which can only be felt intuitively is perhaps only the leakage that escapes from the sheath in which the awakened being veils himself to dim his radiance. In theory it's possible that if the awakened being were to completely withdraw his sword from the stone, so to speak then a much broader spectrum of energies may be radiated including but not limited to visible light. This might explain the Light symbolism in Buddhism, Christianity, and Freemasonry to name a few traditions who associate Light with the awakening of consciousness. Keep in mind that all I'm doing here is playing with concepts from mainstream religion for the sake of a thought exercise. For me it's as you say an 'invisible affective aura' that may or may not be 100% psychological. For the Buddha however perhaps there really was an effect in the range of visible light or beyond. As the Buddha says at one point in describing his Awakening, "Ignorance was destroyed; knowledge arose; darkness was destroyed; light arose — as happens in one who is heedful, ardent, and resolute."

Personally I think any experiences of visible light being emitted would be strictly psychic - that is, hallucinatory - in nature. I'm reminded of a street magician that some of my family members witnessed. They all saw, with their very own eyes, the street magician levitating a plate! All of them except for my great-grandfather, that is, who was hard of hearing and didn't understand what was going on. For him, the plate didn't move at all. That is, in actuality, the plate never moved - everyone else was just somehow drawn into this consensual hallucination by the street magician. It seems it would be the same sort of thing with radiating light. The Saints and Saviours are said to radiate light that, just as the sun is brighter than the moon, so too are they brighter than the sun, yet it's not a physical, actual light, just this psychic hallucination.


I agree, although I happen to believe that pretty much all we ever experience is a kind of psychic hallucination. Modern science seems to be pointing in this direction with their study of 'actual light'. Is a photon a particle or is it a wave ? It depends on the consciousness of the observer therefor 'actual light' seems to be very much a psychic phenomenon in a certain sense. The psyche is a mysterious, substance-less substance through which spirit and matter work out their seeming differences and intermingle so as to reveal their unity. We never have an experience, of either the world or ourselves, except within the psyche. Recognizing the psychic nature of our experience is analogous to recognizing the dream-like nature of our universe. Unaware of the role that our psyche plays in the co-creation of our universe, we of necessity “dream up” or create our world in such a way so as to remind us of the profound importance of the psyche.

This is analogous to how, in a night dream, we “dream up” our unconscious into manifestation in, as and through the dream so as to reveal itself to us and help us to awaken. And just like in a night dream, if we don’t get the “message” that our dream-like universe is revealing to us, we can expect to have endless re-iterations of the same waking nightmare, as if we are having a recurring dream. I think this is what's playing out on a global scale in the seemingly outer world.
Beoman Claudiu Dragon Emu Fire Golem:

Hermetically Sealed:
Beoman Claudiu Dragon Emu Fire Golem:
Personally things like this are why I no longer think enlightenment is the solution I am looking for. It doesn't eliminate the power struggle or power dynamics we were talking about earlier. It just puts you right at the top, and gives you the task of then going about figuring out how to get other people up to where you are. But it's inherently uneven. And quite rare, as you said. Is it really a solution that will lead to peace on earth? Enlightenment has already been around for a few thousand years. Buddha wasn't the first one, and he said so himself. Yet humanity is still in a pretty shitty state. All the enlightened people before you have failed to save humanity. It seems to just perpetuate it, if the power dynamic thing is part of the problem, for example - which I think it is.


I agree that humanity is in a pretty shitty state, but what if there is some hidden relationship between awakened consciousness, Light, and the 'meat an potatoes' power dynamics of the real world ? Isn't such a paradigm what most of the Abrahamic religions are claiming is the case ? If you think about it isn't most of the world's population operating under the assumption that there is going to be a Master who shows up and in some way uses his power of awakened consciousness to forge global peace and start up a new golden age ? In these traditions that Master is always associated with light symbolism and with spiritual development. Now that does sound very Dragon Ball Z but so do many events in the Bible, and in the Pali cannon for that matter. None of these cartoon like speculations have anything to do with my own personal reason for seeking awakening of course but since you brought up DBZ I thought I'd play along. emoticon

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7ovFZEHs2EU

Hehe. It's more fun to have a sense of humor about all this.

I agree that most of the world seems to be operating under this assumption. And where has that gotten us? Nowhere. We as humans are not that much closer to global peace and harmony than we were thousands of years ago. We're not even closer to interpersonal peace and harmony... how many couples have persistent strife in their relationships? If one man and one woman can't get along then how can the whole human race be expected to?

So I agree that there is a relationship between awakened consciousness and the 'meat and potatoes' power dynamics of the real world. The relationship is one of the denizens of the real world looking up to and placing on a pedestal and surrendering to this awakened consciousness. Yet this does not eliminate those power dynamics. It just perpetuates them, and perhaps even intensifies them, focusing them all on the awakened consciousness. Since the power dynamics are the problem in the first place, how will that lead to global peace and harmony?

So maybe the problem is that people are all waiting for a Savior. There have been many Saviors already and they haven't managed to save much, yet. Perhaps instead of perpetuating this global meme by becoming the next Savior and slipping right into it, it's time for everybody to throw away this notion of waiting for a Savior and go about helping themselves.

In any case, I don't want to be the next Savior. Screw that! I'd rather be cheery and anonymous, enjoying my time with whomever I am interacting with, without having to deal with 'me' being better than 'them' or 'them' being jealous of 'me' or 'them' surrendering to 'me' or placing 'me' on a pedestal or 'me' trying to save 'them' etc. That all sounds mighty dramatic and not ultimately very pleasant.


Oh I completely agree about that in a certain sense. The last thing I'd want is to be the next Savior celebrity also. However as I pointed out above I believe that humanity is having a nightmare that it can't seem to wake up from, so those of us who are at least slightly more awake do feel a sense of responsibility to help roust the others, but as you say playing into the savior meme might not be the most skillful means to accomplish this, in fact it's an obvious trap. One problem I see out there is that those characters in the dream who are supposed to be the responsible adults are actually engaged in scheming up every possible way to keep their fellow man deeply asleep. You mentioned that couples are having a hard time getting along with each other. At the risk of being overly verbose let me take a moment here to examine why I believe that is so.

"Kids won’t even find out how much their values have been perverted until they hit high school" - Esquire Magazine

Due to chronic symbol illiteracy, we live our lives largely unaware of a great poison in our midst, something that has a profoundly negative effect on our conscious and unconscious selves. This is the use of subliminal persuasion in media and advertising. Subliminal and subtextual persuasion of this pernicious kind constitutes nothing less than a psychic dictatorship. It involves the deliberate and subversive manipulation and public purveyance of words, images, numbers, colors, rhythms and symbols which are subsequently directed, via ubiquitous media oracles, toward limbic areas of the brain.

The artifice of the Media Persuaders produces an elaborate and insidious cryptic language specifically designed to stimulate conflict between fantasy and reality. It also serves to stimulate the compulsive urges of man's base appetites, and a plethora of mundane and dissonant drives that conflict with our higher aspirations and intentions. Constant exposure to subliminal content serves to undermine our healthy drives. It subverts our natural moral sensibility and ultimately arrests our spiritual maturation. The devastating effects of such subversion on ourselves, and our children, has rarely been explored in great depth. It has yet to be recognized by the public at large, who - being victims of chronic symbol illiteracy - are unshielded against the constant barrage of subliminal information entering their minds causing, over time, a nightmare list of physical and psychic disorders.

Robert D. Mcllwraith of the University of Manitoba states that the main attraction of television-watching is not the content of programming, but a dependency on the medium itself...The volume of television-watching in the United States might be seen as indicative of an addiction. It is estimated by the Smithsonian Institute that the average American household has the television on seven and a half hours per day. The average American watches twenty-five hours of television per week. The average preschool child watches television about twenty-eight hours per week, and the average elementary school age child watches twenty-four hours per week. By the completion of high school, a child can be expected to have watched 15,000 hours of television-far more than the child's accumulated hours of classroom time and more than any other activity except sleep
- Ronald Schenk (Spirit in the Tube)


In my mind there can be no question of positive social change, no question of national or global healing, until human beings (particularly those in the western world) become lucidly aware of, and profoundly educated concerning the power of symbols, not only as transcendental portals, and mathematical indicators, but as weapons in the hands of plutocratic elites, with occult agendas, laboring to arrest the mental, emotional, and spiritual maturation of the underclasses.

The alarming existential chaos which the young presently experience, though mostly deplored and ignored, serves as a direct indictment of the symbolic subversion I seek to expose. The young are, by definition, closer to the creative force than the average adult. They are also more influenced by the limbic brain and, therefore, respond with greater zeal to the erotic and even perverse symbolic messages which have become increasingly pervasive in their life- and think-space. The invasive, clandestinely directed, content has been adroitly designed to bypass their moral conscience and rational filters. The results of this psychic dictatorship are devastating.

Subliminal messages permeate television programs, computer games, magazines, billboards, products and musical productions. They are, however, not limited to the ambience of the young. They are just one of the weapons in the arsenal of psychopathic corporations whose entire modus operandi concerns profit and dehumanization. All that is truly aesthetic, traditional and culturally substantial, stands in the way of their monopolistic strategies; their aggressive, relentless efforts at reducing the entire human race to a body of narcissistic, sense-infatuated, desensitized, amoral, immoral or actively criminal "smiling depressives."


…the corporation remains as it was at the time of its origins, as a mad business institution in the middle of the nineteenth century, and legally designated “person” designed to valorize self interest and invalidate moral concern. Most people would find its “personality” abnormal, even psychopathic, in a human being, yet curiously we accept it in society’s most powerful institutions
- Joel Bakan (The Corporation)


Business is business we say; people are merely selling their products. If only this were true. A little research and objective observation tells a different tale. The elite at the top of the world's major advertising agencies are extraordinarily educated and intuitive people trained by private schools and prestigious think tanks. Although it may come as news to the consumer, it is a fact that selling products is only a minor concern for them. Though it may sound rather bizarre, it is their job to implant political and aesthetically conditioning motifs within the minds of their erstwhile viewers. These implanted messages, more often than not, contradict our conscious drives. The elites to whom I refer, know a great deal about human and social psychology. They understand the operations of the human body and mind. They have made an indepth study of the complex nature of desire, emotion, libido, and appetite, and their researches have even taken them into occult fields. Arcane subjects such as Astro-Theology, sabeanism, numerology, and ceremonial magic are assiduously studied. It would appear that the advertisers consider their logos in the same manner as a trained sorcerer considers the various talismans, amulets, symbols, mudras, mantras, and rhythms that employs in his work to disaffect minds and enhance personal power.

Down through the centuries, symbols are memorized. They become part of the collective phylogenetic reservoir. They are in our "Race Memory." When such symbols are used, they invariably stimulate reactions, often emotional and sexual. Some symbols were, and still are, specifically designed to affect the limbic centers of the brain. In primitive cultures we hear of the voodoo doctor and his attendant zombie. Before he fell under the spell of his master, the zombie was a live, active, thinking person. His will was weakened because he was slowly and surreptitiously administered the juice of the Datura plant, which drugged him into state of listlessness and passivity. Each day, lest he revive, the zombie had to ingest more of the potion.

Today we see a similar process at work, only with greater frequency and over a larger demographic. In this case, the "Datura" is not organic but auditory, visual, and digital. We have technological witchdoctors and cyberspace sorcerers. Their particular concoction of spells are cast via techniques that go by names such as Tele-hypnosis, Metacontrast, Hemisync, Synaesthenia and Embedding to name a few. New techniques, yes, but with the same deadly effect as any past voodoo, sorcery or telepathy. Recently, a professional hypnotist declared that the very same skills used to lull the mind into a state of suggestibility are unquestionably used by advertising agents operating carelessly and narcissistically when it comes to their contributions to the fate of civilization.

Yes, it appears that the "enchanters" of the story books are alive, well and busy. In one sense the advertisers are like the “Leonardos” and “Michaelangelos” of the modern age. Moreover, they are still under oligarchic patronage. They are, however, not utilizing their prodigious endowments for the spiritual or cultural uplift of mankind. They are master persuaders and deal in behavioral and motivational sciences. Their modus operendi is the systematic erosion of the moral, intellectual, and spiritual foundations of society. Cannot the spiritual vacuity and moral degradation of our century be traced to the corruption peddled by these Apollonian persuaders in their gleaming corporate penthouses?


No one's really worrying about what it's (advertising to children) teaching impressionable youth. Hey, I'm in the business of convincing people to buy things they don't need
- Advertising Executive (quoted from Business Week, August 11, 1997)

…In boy’s advertising…antisocial behavior in pursuit of a product is a good thing - Disney Marketing Executive


We readily accept that other species on the planet can be trained to have their behavior altered. We know that this manipulation occurs either by direct training or gradual change of a creature’s environment and habitat beyond its awareness. Although it may sound controversial, the situation is no different when it comes to the control of humanity. The results of the artifice are around us in plain view:


In the cybernetic age, the individual becomes increasingly subject to manipulation. His work, his consumption, and his leisure are manipulated by advertising, by ideologies, by what Skinner calls “positive reinforcements.” The individual loses his active, responsible role in the social process; he becomes completely “adjusted” and learns that any behavior, act, thought, or feeling which does not fit into the general scheme puts him at a severe disadvantage; in fact he is what he is supposed to be…What has happened in modern industrial society is that traditions, and common values, and genuine social personal ties with others have largely disappeared. The modern mass man is isolated and lonely, even though he is part of a crowd; he has no convictions which he could share with others, only slogans and ideologies he gets from the communications media
- Erich Fromm (The Anatomy of Human Destructiveness)


Without personal study or experience, the reader will be inclined to balk at these facts. The oligarchs have made sure that little information regarding this subject reaches the public. Although there is an unbelievable barrage of symbolism in our world, and though it is known that billions of dollars are involved in their production, distribution, and monitoring, the average person has little awareness of the fatal impact they are having on his life. Walking around decorated with the logos and brand names of exploiting corporations and conglomerates is considered normal and even chic today. Although thousands of classical musical and artistic creations are debauched under their hand, and though our visual space is cluttered with ad-copy and billboards, few in authority raise a murmur against it.


The man who does not know what it means to be under psychic hypnosis, is probably already under it - Vernon Howard


The return to sanity, personally and socially, has been a major theme of innumerable psychologists, activists and philosophers for decades. The men and women of reason have concluded that something is very existentially wrong with Post-Industrial humanity. Experts have gone to great lengths to describe what is wrong with the way urban man lives. However (despite some rare exceptions), modern-day intellectuals and academics rarely offer substantial solutions to mankind’s vexatious problems.

We are now in the twenty-first century and the time for "problem-think" is, in the mind of this writer, over. It is now time for "solution-think." This means that it is time for mankind to proactively face reality in order to change it, and to have zero-tolerance for the factors which enslave and befuddle. This paradigm shift involves the acceptance and confrontation of the "dark sides" of the human ego-personality, and a desire to see ourselves for who we are morally and psychologically. It is our habitual avoidance and denial of what we falsely regard as the "darker" side of ourselves, that has brought humanity to the brink of ecocide and psychosis. It is this avoidance that plays right into the hands of the architects of world control who have preyed over humanity for so many ages.

The confrontation of the dark aspects of the personality liberates us from the control of the ego. The ego, as a few thinkers discovered, is not unique to one person. It is really a "social ego." Man's persona or pseudo-self is simply a bi-product of his society. The face we show to the world is ultimately a creation of that world. If we wish to be truly unique, we must transcend the ego and social persona. However, this process of individuation cannot occur until we develop the capacity of seeing ourselves rightly. We must have the courage to look into the mirror of the self, rather than that of the ego.

Cynics who continue to doubt whether symbols and images have any lasting negative affect on consciousness should remember and study the most recent example of mass control, that of Nazi Germany. The Nazis openly used ritual choreography, ancient symbols and rallying chants, powerful mystical logos and regalia, and so on, to force men into a hive-think. We now know that Hitler and his cronies were deeply involved with powerful occult societies and fascinated by ancient mysticism. Hitler sent agents throughout the world, to visit tribes and sects, in order to procure occult works, and learn how to employ magical arts. Although it might sound controversial, the same arcane archive is made use of today, not only by advertisers in Hollywood and on Madison Avenue, but by leading Evangelists and other churchmen. It is used by the heads of leading corporations. As financier J. P. Morgan once said, Millionaires don't use astrology...billionaires do!

Every news anchor and talk show host subtly emphasizes stereotypes that force men into consensus trance. Every movie-maker of significance uses subliminal and subtextual devices to embed ideas in the minds of his audience. Every high-end set designer knows what symbols and shapes to use so that his audiences are emotionally attracted and ingratiated. Most informed broadcasters and media executives know how to provide surrogates for what is missing within us, and how to help us hide from ourselves in the "light" of collective. They know what kind of power the super-lit, florescent, convenient, user-friendly, one-seasoned world of their manufacture has over human minds. They also know that what psychosis occurs if those under their control are not provided with illusions of freedom, diversity, plenty and choice. This is one of the reasons why we are given many pseudo-choices, particularly between products. It accounts for why there are so many dialectical divisions in the corporate world - for example, Levis versus Jordac, Coke versus Pepsi, ABC versus CNN. Stones versus Beatles, Letterman versus Leno, Russia versus USA, Republican versus Democrat, Conservative versus Liberal, Catholic versus Protestant, Atheist versus Believer, Gay versus Straight, Black versus White, Arab versus Jew, Rich versus Poor, and even Male versus Female, ad nauseaum. Under the guise of plenty and choice, man's ability to choose well is eroded. His true intelligence is assaulted and he becomes incapable of deciding anything for himself. In the end, his good is whatever his masters say it is. His freedom is whatever they feel like bestowing. His thoughts are whatever makes him safe and secure in the prison created by his overlords.


Signs and symbols control the world, not phases and laws - Confucius (551-479 BC)


Obviously, a man can never attain true and lasting happiness or independence if he does not own his mind and emotions. If he is colonized and branded, he inevitably loses charge of his own destiny. He becomes emotionally and spiritually naked and his children inherit a bleak but brightly-lit busy dystopia without meaning or depth.

The man of today gives rise to the man of tomorrow. And it seems that as things currently stand tomorrow's man will not be the inhabitant of a secure utopia where freedom, justice and truth are cherished. On the contrary, he will be an obsessed, addicted victim suffering psychic and emotional dysfunction, riddled with guilt and shame. His inner life will be a miasma of unfulfilled desires and misplaced allegiances. He will be under the "Hex." Once the connection and rapport with the inner self is occluded, man becomes a slave of external approval. Consequently, those who command our adoration must be like ourselves or be those who appear to possess a greater abundance of those chimeras we think valuable. To fill his inner void, he repeatedly returns to the very oracles that caused his problems in the first place. He lives out his entire life unaware of the origin of his miasma. Indeed, he'll rush to the defense of his destroyers should they come under attack, and become neurotic the moment the spell they've cast over his soul looks like dissipating.


The twenty-first century will be the era of the World Controllers…The older dictators fell because they could never supply their subjects with enough bread, enough circuses, enough miracles, and mysteries. Under a scientific dictatorship, education will really work…most men and women will grow up to love their servitude and will never dream of revolution. There seems to be no good reason why a thoroughly scientific dictatorship should ever be overthrown
- Aldous Huxley (Brave New World Revisited)


Tragically, that which man consumes also consumes him. Sickened and desperate in his own soul, and knowing next to nothing about his essence, he charges back and forth vainly with a thousand and one ideas and plans, pathetically ministering to the maladies of his equally debilitated neighbors. His mind is plagued with "media viruses" and his libido rages within from all kinds of toxic programming. By divorcing ourselves from our center and losing our natural intelligence, we become a generation of people who must have but cannot be, who know what but not how to think. The needs of our persona, and limbic brain, compel us to live on the periphery of Being, on the surface of ourselves. Pestilence and injustice ride their steeds through the world sowing the seeds of doom among the innocent and pure, within unprotected hearts and minds oblivious about what is happening to them.

The subversive forces which deal so contemptuously with the underclasses they fear, can be sanctioned, penalized and even overthrown once we return to the "Symbolic Literacy" natural to our forebears. When the "inner eye" is opened and when Pattern Recognition becomes as natural as breathing, the tables will be turned on subversive malefactors and tyrants. After we develop a rudimentary critical intelligence, Truth will decide to return and dwell among us. Our indifference and neglect has banished both Truth and Virtue to the voids. To welcome them back into the human circle, and be nourished again by their company, we must not only enhance our discernment, but show zero-tolerance toward any entity whose agendas and artifice flies in the face of reason. We must have zero-tolerance for the insidious forces whose artifice leads to the desecration of earth and the lifeforms who dwell on it.

Perhaps in this "new age" it is not the Savior's role to be put on a pedestal, but rather to do his part in some way to promote "Symbolic Literacy" and to persuade the Persuaders with whatever Force of mind he can muster so that the Persuaders themselves undo their malignant spells and begin to work towards the betterment of mankind. The snake must be convinced to eat it's own tail, so to speak. It's fun to think about at least, and in theory this kind of action could be accomplished while being as you say cheery and anonymous. The savior would have to be a pretty good persuader himself though.

RE: need advice on how to hide insight progress.
Answer
8/26/13 5:25 PM as a reply to Hermetically Sealed.
You don't have any normal 'life relationship dramas' do you?,,,so instead you have to *pretend* to be a normal person...

You can't say to her 'babe there's nothing to worry about, you just have to awaken your consciousness to live in the profound peace of mind that is your true birthright and true self'. Your biggest problem is a problem of how to effectively hide your level of attainment, so that you can still get laid, socialize with a large group of friends, and in general make those around you feel comfortable.


Dear HS, life has presented you with a perfect arising of self, but instead of *seeing* the arising, you're believing your mind's false questions. Whenever the mind presents you with such a question as above, get to the root of it.

Enlightenment is like a sea of calm obviousness...sure the mind talks to you, just like other people talk to you, but when you take it to be *your mind* suddenly it isn't obviousness. Then *you have a choice* appears and with choice a *sticky question* with which to get wrapped back up into mind about.

The answer of course isn't *to not do something* or *to do something*, the answer is that when what appears to be a sticky *choice* appears in the mind, take the opportunity presented to get to the root of the stickiness that's making you think this is *your thought* then it will become just "a thought" and what to do (or not do) will be obvious again.

The rest will take care of itself, best of luck, and if at all possible, have fun with it!

Dan

RE: need advice on how to hide insight progress.
Answer
8/26/13 8:16 PM as a reply to Dan From Virginia.
Dan From Virginia:

Enlightenment is like a sea of calm obviousness...


Thanks Dan this was perfect, and upon reflection... so obvious, just as it should be. emoticon
context becomes content again; consciousness pivots another step up the fractal and from there it's obvious again. You just do what feels like the right thing to do and say what you know is the right thing to say.

RE: need advice on how to hide insight progress.
Answer
8/27/13 1:02 AM as a reply to Hermetically Sealed.
Hermetically Sealed:


Thanks Dan this was perfect, and upon reflection... so obvious, just as it should be. emoticon
context becomes content again; consciousness pivots another step up the fractal and from there it's obvious again. You just do what feels like the right thing to do and say what you know is the right thing to say.


Sure HS, if it helps, I like to remember what Ralph said "Every calamity is a spur and valuable hint”

Have a good night,

Dan

RE: need advice on how to hide insight progress.
Answer
8/29/13 3:31 PM as a reply to Dan From Virginia.
HS, you will probably hit another dark night again sooner or later evaporating all of your so-called unshakable bliss and then you will remember me saying this very thing and you might even blame me for suggesting it saying that I created some sort of doubt in you. After all, I'm probably just that toxic kind of guy that you should avoid, anyway. On the other hand I can see the drama just rolling off your back already, so maybe I'm wrong.

I suggest that you quit desiring social situations, getting laid, what have you. There's nothing wrong with sitting quietly in a rubber room for the rest of your life meditating, especially when a mental institute is the closest thing to a Sangha that most modern meditators will be accepted into, anyway.

RE: need advice on how to hide insight progress.
Answer
8/29/13 6:18 PM as a reply to J E B.
J E B:
HS, you will probably hit another dark night again sooner or later evaporating all of your so-called unshakable bliss and then you will remember me saying this very thing and you might even blame me for suggesting it saying that I created some sort of doubt in you. After all, I'm probably just that toxic kind of guy that you should avoid, anyway. On the other hand I can see the drama just rolling off your back already, so maybe I'm wrong.

I suggest that you quit desiring social situations, getting laid, what have you. There's nothing wrong with sitting quietly in a rubber room for the rest of your life meditating, especially when a mental institute is the closest thing to a Sangha that most modern meditators will be accepted into, anyway.


If you make the maps into your prison then you will have to live in that prison. Even Daniel if I understand him correctly cycles through all the phases each morning when he meditates; he's just really good at hurrying up and achieving equanimity before he starts his day..


Remember we are collaboratively dreaming up the universe, while the universe is simultaneously dreaming us up. This interplay reciprocally co-arises in a non-linear, acausal and atemporal, synchronistic and cybernetic feedback loop. Buddhism calls this beginning-less process interdependent co-origination: every part of the universe evokes and is concurrently evoked by every other part in a seamless expression of undivided wholeness. This is to say that the idea of separation between ourselves and the universe is an illusion. This means if we change the way we view the universe, the universe itself spontaneously reflects this change back to us, as the universe is not separate from our perception of it.

http://www.awakeninthedream.com/wordpress/as-viewed-so-appears/


This explains why if you find a way to broaden your beliefs about what is possible for your practice then it will help broaden your attainments but if you cling to the belief that you are perpetually doomed to hang out "in the dark night" which isn't even a real place, then the universe will syncronistically do everything it can to help you make that belief into a reality. In other words before you can overcome the dark night you first have to believe that you can overcome the dark night, and you have to exert effort towards achieving that dream.

Trinity: What's he doing?
Morpheus: He's beginning to believe.

As for making efforts to be a quasi normal person, or at least get laid.. That is just a lifestyle choice. I live in a lifestyle obsessed society where everyone is blindly struggling to reach "lifestyle perfection" at their great detriment. The recognition of this fact naturally makes me want to just reject all of that lifestyle design stuff and instead be an example of how one can be happy living a very minimalist existence. I don't mean going about it as extremely as in the movie Fight Club but more like for example: I'm tempted to just live out of an RV in a national park or whatever, maybe near a retreat center, enjoy nature, forget about dating and the ever shifting intricacies of fashionable consumption. I did that kind of thing for a year or so actually.

The problem with that is that other people will worry about me. They know that I'm capable of achieving the lifestyle goals that they relish and my parents for example take great pride in being able to point that out to the extended family. So therefor if I intentionally become what they would perceive as a loser, just because it's easier, or to make a statement, or out of laziness, then I suppose I'm not showing them enough respect, and also it would make them worry about my sanity and try to "help me get back on track". Instead of causing people such worry it's easier for me to just engage in lifestyle design, hold down a career, do the best I can at living the supposed American Dream, and just try to find the least materialistically ensnared girlfriend I can so that we can snicker together about how silly it all is as we sip our Starbucks doppio espressos and go shopping at the Apple Store for our latest high tech fashion accessory. I do draw the line at watching TV though, fuck that shit.

RE: need advice on how to hide insight progress.
Answer
8/29/13 5:05 PM as a reply to Hermetically Sealed.
Ah, I see now, HS, you are still young. It will dawn upon you soon enough that expectations and familial roles are not really all that important as is a relationship with anyone for that matter. Even IF you DID achieve the higher goal of living in an RV, you would still need at least enough money to pay for parking fees and food costs. However, I do have a book that lists all of the edible herbs of northern America.

RE: need advice on how to hide insight progress.
Answer
8/29/13 5:40 PM as a reply to Hermetically Sealed.
Hermetically Sealed:
I do draw the line at watching TV though, fuck that shit.

Aw not even Game of Thrones, or Breaking Bad, or Futurama, or Dexter? Some fun stuff in there.

RE: need advice on how to hide insight progress.
Answer
8/29/13 6:39 PM as a reply to J E B.
J E B:
Ah, I see now, HS, you are still young. It will dawn upon you soon enough that expectations and familial roles are not really all that important as is a relationship with anyone for that matter. Even IF you DID achieve the higher goal of living in an RV, you would still need at least enough money to pay for parking fees and food costs. However, I do have a book that lists all of the edible herbs of northern America.


Yeah well, these family beings have fashioned for themselves hell realms occupied by demons who take note of their children's economic, and relationship status before deciding how much torment to inflict. When I drop out of society those demons (apparently) break out the hot pokers. How can I turn my back on the tortured cries ? The rents are not interested in learning how to dismantle their hell realms they seem to only be interested in appeasing their demons and in spreading that responsibility to others. My compassionate nature tells me that if I can decrease their suffering a little bit just by playing along then I might as well, at least until I'm a good bit older. Then maybe I'll go back to something more non-traditional like living in an RV or living in a hut on the beach in Thailand somewhere. I don't know.. we'll see none of it is written in stone, I try to remain like the fool and all.. ready to adapt to whatever life throws my way.

http://www.cheaprvliving.com/

RE: need advice on how to hide insight progress.
Answer
8/29/13 9:28 PM as a reply to Hermetically Sealed.
You seem to not really know what it is like to have an actual dark night so real that society itself will not allow you to have a place in it. Where you are seemingly blacklisted and unemployable. Where you really have to rely solely on those meditation techniques in order to force a stage of equanimity and where all notions of needing success for whatever purpose must be let go in order to have just a small taste of that sanity that you describe while you watch your entire life falling apart all around you constantly. Then you will know for sure how valuable those maps are. Somehow, I do not think that you know it that intimately seeing that your biggest problem is a satisfactory social life and sex partner. I do not even pursue any kind of relationship anymore due to not wanting my own hardships to befall others or get evolved into a tangle of their drama either which I just cannot bare under the weight of my own misfortune in life, nor do I try to please family members who are probably just as bad as yours when it comes to rubbing my own failures in my face every chance that they can get. Fortunately, you just don't know how real the dark night can actually become, and I hope that you never will have to experience it that way.

RE: need advice on how to hide insight progress.
Answer
8/29/13 10:37 PM as a reply to J E B.
J E B:
You seem to not really know what it is like to have an actual dark night so real that society itself will not allow you to have a place in it. Where you are seemingly blacklisted and unemployable. Where you really have to rely solely on those meditation techniques in order to force a stage of equanimity and where all notions of needing success for whatever purpose must be let go in order to have just a small taste of that sanity that you describe while you watch your entire life falling apart all around you constantly. Then you will know for sure how valuable those maps are. Somehow, I do not think that you know it that intimately seeing that your biggest problem is a satisfactory social life and sex partner. I do not even pursue any kind of relationship anymore due to not wanting my own hardships to befall others or get evolved into a tangle of their drama either which I just cannot bare under the weight of my own misfortune in life, nor do I try to please family members who are probably just as bad as yours when it comes to rubbing my own failures in my face every chance that they can get. Fortunately, you just don't know how real the dark night can actually become, and I hope that you never will have to experience it that way.


The problems that I faced in my own dark night extend far beyond the realm of the mundane world. If I discuss them here then it will do nothing but draw a kind of attention that I do not seek so I don't care to elaborate. It is perhaps not even fair for me to have mentioned it, but I will say that these kinds of tests have taught me that I do have what it takes to live a life filled with uncertainty and suffering and yet still maintain my Equipoise. I do not need to prove this to you because I have already proven it to myself and in so doing have freed myself from the need to actually experience extremely averse conditions, at least for the time being. I try to not underestimate my own ignorance, so I assume that further testing of all shapes and sizes may arise at any moment, and I stand ready, but my preference is to not dwell in the dark night any longer and to manifest for myself comforting circumstances so that I can express without distraction.

I recognize that I am blessed with favorable circumstances at the moment some of which I have drawn to myself in this life, and some of which have come about seemingly of their own accord. I recognize that not everyone is so blessed. I'm sure that in some ways you are blessed and you have within yourself a potential to feel blessed every day. This is ultimately a choice that you make for yourself. If you choose to enjoy your folly, to rise above it, then you can. Once you prove to the seemingly outer universe that you have learned all that you can learn from living under certain conditions then perhaps you'll find a new set of conditions arising for you that give you a further opportunity for growth, I strongly suspect that is the case.

RE: need advice on how to hide insight progress.
Answer
8/29/13 11:08 PM as a reply to Hermetically Sealed.
Oh, I've been to hell and back, too. I have been in places where there was no sane thought to be found for infinite souls in every direction with waves upon waves of hellish tension. That was nothing, though, to what I have gone through recently. I never thought that I would ever lose it again, but I did.

RE: need advice on how to hide insight progress.
Answer
8/30/13 11:10 AM as a reply to J E B.
Once I fell into a place of unimaginable torment - a deep, dark pit of nothingness. Twisted, tortured bat-demons swarmed around me, clawing and rending my flesh. Every wound spread screaming black death upon my grubflesh, disintegrating then painfully reforming, only to be rent anew. From the darkness came wailing shrieks of the unfulfilled and the damned, bellowing endless plaints and peals, melding together into one bleeding pitch of forsaken humanity. I foolishly turned to look into the darkness and was pulled into a massive pit of grinding, screeching bodies. They tore my mind open and infected me with their sins, countless aeons of ignorant infliction, millions of soldiers firing and piercing and decapitating in an endless eternal conflict, brutal gang rapes, murderers slaughtering family after family, thousands of torture chambers of pain, flaying, scalding, piercing, burning, I screamed NO MORE! and the pit flooded with molten lead, piercing instant pain on my body and inside of it, yet not burning or melting, every inch inside and out just pain pain suffering pain pain oh god pain pain madness sadness pain grief scald torum glabr prain mee x...
...
...
...
Ok, I didn't, but I felt I had to join in on this one-upmanship =P.

RE: need advice on how to hide insight progress.
Answer
8/30/13 11:24 AM as a reply to Beoman Claudiu Dragon Emu Fire Golem.
Beoman Claudiu Dragon Emu Fire Golem:
Once I fell into a place of unimaginable torment - a deep, dark pit of nothingness. Twisted, tortured bat-demons swarmed around me, clawing and rending my flesh. Every wound spread screaming black death upon my grubflesh, disintegrating then painfully reforming, only to be rent anew. From the darkness came wailing shrieks of the unfulfilled and the damned, bellowing endless plaints and peals, melding together into one bleeding pitch of forsaken humanity. I foolishly turned to look into the darkness and was pulled into a massive pit of grinding, screeching bodies. They tore my mind open and infected me with their sins, countless aeons of ignorant infliction, millions of soldiers firing and piercing and decapitating in an endless eternal conflict, brutal gang rapes, murderers slaughtering family after family, thousands of torture chambers of pain, flaying, scalding, piercing, burning, I screamed NO MORE! and the pit flooded with molten lead, piercing instant pain on my body and inside of it, yet not burning or melting, every inch inside and out just pain pain suffering pain pain oh god pain pain madness sadness pain grief scald torum glabr prain mee x...
...
...
...
Ok, I didn't, but I felt I had to join in on this one-upmanship =P.


Oh, and while reading it, I actually thought, someone actually knows...anyway, I have written a song:

"All of your problems
they're just in your head,
so stay in the moment...
until you are dead!"

~ J E B

RE: need advice on how to hide insight progress.
Answer
8/30/13 1:41 PM as a reply to J E B.
Hi JEB,

If you feel that bad, have you perhaps considered seeking professional help? Maybe there is something there for you.

Good luck,
Simon

RE: need advice on how to hide insight progress.
Answer
8/30/13 7:18 PM as a reply to Simon Ekstrand.
Simon E:
Hi JEB,

If you feel that bad, have you perhaps considered seeking professional help? Maybe there is something there for you.

Good luck,
Simon


Absolutely not. I do not trust or believe in psychiatry, especially those regulated by the state. I also do not trust pharmaceutical poisons. To me psychiatry has evolved to about the level of blood letting with leaches.

RE: need advice on how to hide insight progress.
Answer
9/23/13 7:19 AM as a reply to Hermetically Sealed.
Maybe my enlightenment is up for discussion, but you can trust me I am good with women. ;)

So bear with me here.


Honesty.

Read the book Radical Honesty. It's pretty darn good.

Why would you try to hide anything? You can skip the word enlightenment for most people, and instead talk about what you see, smell, taste, feel, hear or even think at that moment.

It makes for great humor.
"Are you fat? No way! You look human to me."
"What am I feeling? Your breath on my cheek."

If they want drama, go tell them about your journey. How hard and arduous it was, the pain, the suffering. And what you learned.

As for finding a good woman, slowly show yourself, not all at once, but don't hide anything either. You WANT women to know who you are. So they will either take a hike, or get to know you better. This is good!

Playful arrogance is also great.

"I am a great bhudda. I have achieved all the djanas. You mere mortal don't understand. Bow before me now!"


This last tip is about finding quality women:

It is wise to articulate the characteristics you find attractive in her, and in women in general. (again honesty, but now more specific)

"Wow, you are a devious little brat! I like it."
"I love it when women cook healthy."
"Awww, your sweet smile makes my heart melt!"
"Women should be conscious about what they eat."

This has a couple of functions.

1 They will display this behaviour more often.
2 Having standards makes you more attractive.
3 The match-making process goes way smoother.

So go ahead, make a list. A list of things you are looking for in a woman. Throw them in randomly during the conversation. This is called qualification. And if she shows something attractive that's not on the list, give her a compliment on that as well.

RE: need advice on how to hide insight progress.
Answer
9/23/13 4:52 PM as a reply to Beoman Claudiu Dragon Emu Fire Golem.
Beoman Claudiu Dragon Emu Fire Golem:
Once I fell into a place of unimaginable torment - a deep, dark pit of nothingness. Twisted, tortured bat-demons swarmed around me, clawing and rending my flesh. Every wound spread screaming black death upon my grubflesh, disintegrating then painfully reforming, only to be rent anew. From the darkness came wailing shrieks of the unfulfilled and the damned, bellowing endless plaints and peals, melding together into one bleeding pitch of forsaken humanity. I foolishly turned to look into the darkness and was pulled into a massive pit of grinding, screeching bodies. They tore my mind open and infected me with their sins, countless aeons of ignorant infliction, millions of soldiers firing and piercing and decapitating in an endless eternal conflict, brutal gang rapes, murderers slaughtering family after family, thousands of torture chambers of pain, flaying, scalding, piercing, burning, I screamed NO MORE! and the pit flooded with molten lead, piercing instant pain on my body and inside of it, yet not burning or melting, every inch inside and out just pain pain suffering pain pain oh god pain pain madness sadness pain grief scald torum glabr prain mee x...
...
...
...
Ok, I didn't, but I felt I had to join in on this one-upmanship =P.


Oh my god, you are so superior for not engaging in such petty misery! What a teacher of lessons, art thou!

Been there, done that. A.k.a., being a jerk... or is it douche-bag? =P

RE: need advice on how to hide insight progress.
Answer
9/23/13 4:55 PM as a reply to Hermetically Sealed.
I actually find the question in this thread very interesting.

Generally people who care about me, my family and friends, and most especially my parents, tend to freak out whenever I do something that doesn't fit with whatever they have on their minds for me and my life. And in my case they had plenty of opportunity, and freaked out accordingly, on many situations. (They are really tormented right now about my upcoming retreat.)

While usually they freak out because of things that are difficult as well as unusual, the latter is usually enough. I can totally see them freak out if I were to go live on a trailer, or abandon whatever they perceive as a steady career path. I do consider the choices in my life taking their worldview into account. To given an extreme example: I have had times so dark that their well being was definitely weighing in my decision not to commit suicide.

Or, to give a less grim example, I can positively say that the only reason I don't wear my comfy sweat pants every day, and try to replace my shoes when they start looking too dirty, is because I know that my family will start noticing it if I get too sloppy, and comment among themselves about the matter, and see it as a sign of concern.

So, HS, I understand where you are coming from, and think that your questions are valid, honest and compassionate.

I don't know about you, however in my case there are things that wear me down too much. I hate putting up a persona (pretending I feel things that I don't), I am bad at it and find it really displeasing, so I seldom do it. On one hand that is sometimes cause of conflict, but it has also given opportunities to become closer with someone. Me being bisexual is an example of both.

But I don't experience that "everything is OK" in my life, so I do have things to complain about, so I can't entirely relate to your specific problem.

I wonder... have you tried to consistently be your most natural with two or three persons (perhaps new acquaintances), as an experiment? One thing that I think helps is bring up your concerns explicitly — don't fake, but don't ignore the possibility that someone will freak out about the way you are; tell them in advance you are that way, and ask them to be patient/friendly/accepting of that. When people explicitly feel they have the power to reject you because of some personal trait (which in the end they do, exactly as you described), they are less scared of it. For instance, if you don't feel alarmed by something which they expect you to be alarmed about, and if you not pretending you are alarmed seems to upset them, you could explicitly apologize and ask for their patience (I know that sometimes people not bandwagoning on my outrage, for instance, aggravates me even further). Again, if they feel that they are entitled to reject you — which they actually are — they may actually come to nurture those qualities in you which, they feel, would justify that rejection. Loving someone in spite of them can be just as powerful as loving them because of them, and the strongest bonds are usually a mixture of the two.

Truth of the matter is: you made choices in your life which, despite being very well intentioned — for yourself and for others — do tend to aggravate other people in some situations (as you described). Instead of just saying "well, that is their problem, it is THEM who have chosen not to meditate or whatever and be upset at things in life", it is much more noble to face up to the fact that your choice does annoy people sometimes (which I think is what this thread is about, and why I think it is a very legitimate issue that you are raising).

The solution you seem to have found is basically to pretend you haven't made those choices, but perhaps you could try simply to apologize... I think this is true and that you should be sorry and apologize — even if, in the bigger picture, you are causing less harm and less aggravation than you would otherwise.

RE: need advice on how to hide insight progress.
Answer
9/23/13 5:41 PM as a reply to Bruno Loff.
Bruno Loff:
Beoman Claudiu Dragon Emu Fire Golem:
Once I fell into a place of unimaginable torment - a deep, dark pit of nothingness. Twisted, tortured bat-demons swarmed around me, clawing and rending my flesh. Every wound spread screaming black death upon my grubflesh, disintegrating then painfully reforming, only to be rent anew. From the darkness came wailing shrieks of the unfulfilled and the damned, bellowing endless plaints and peals, melding together into one bleeding pitch of forsaken humanity. I foolishly turned to look into the darkness and was pulled into a massive pit of grinding, screeching bodies. They tore my mind open and infected me with their sins, countless aeons of ignorant infliction, millions of soldiers firing and piercing and decapitating in an endless eternal conflict, brutal gang rapes, murderers slaughtering family after family, thousands of torture chambers of pain, flaying, scalding, piercing, burning, I screamed NO MORE! and the pit flooded with molten lead, piercing instant pain on my body and inside of it, yet not burning or melting, every inch inside and out just pain pain suffering pain pain oh god pain pain madness sadness pain grief scald torum glabr prain mee x...
...
...
...
Ok, I didn't, but I felt I had to join in on this one-upmanship =P.


Oh my god, you are so superior for not engaging in such petty misery! What a teacher of lessons, art thou!

Been there, done that. A.k.a., being a jerk... or is it douche-bag? =P

Lol. What's the word for when someone calls someone else a jerk [while acting] like a jerk in the process?

It's one thing to feel misery, it's another to thump your chest as to how much misery you felt in the past. You don't agree that the latter is sort of a stupid thing to do - to take pride in how much you have suffered?

RE: need advice on how to hide insight progress.
Answer
9/23/13 5:57 PM as a reply to Beoman Claudiu Dragon Emu Fire Golem.
Beoman Claudiu Dragon Emu Fire Golem:
Bruno Loff:
Beoman Claudiu Dragon Emu Fire Golem:
Once I fell into a place of unimaginable torment - a deep, dark pit of nothingness. Twisted, tortured bat-demons swarmed around me, clawing and rending my flesh. Every wound spread screaming black death upon my grubflesh, disintegrating then painfully reforming, only to be rent anew. From the darkness came wailing shrieks of the unfulfilled and the damned, bellowing endless plaints and peals, melding together into one bleeding pitch of forsaken humanity. I foolishly turned to look into the darkness and was pulled into a massive pit of grinding, screeching bodies. They tore my mind open and infected me with their sins, countless aeons of ignorant infliction, millions of soldiers firing and piercing and decapitating in an endless eternal conflict, brutal gang rapes, murderers slaughtering family after family, thousands of torture chambers of pain, flaying, scalding, piercing, burning, I screamed NO MORE! and the pit flooded with molten lead, piercing instant pain on my body and inside of it, yet not burning or melting, every inch inside and out just pain pain suffering pain pain oh god pain pain madness sadness pain grief scald torum glabr prain mee x...
...
...
...
Ok, I didn't, but I felt I had to join in on this one-upmanship =P.


Oh my god, you are so superior for not engaging in such petty misery! What a teacher of lessons, art thou!

Been there, done that. A.k.a., being a jerk... or is it douche-bag? =P

Lol. What's the word for when someone calls someone else a jerk and thus acts like a jerk in the process?


Lol, you're right. I was just coming over here to delete the post and send you a private message instead. I had no interest in making the message public, I didn't mean it as a political point. But since your reply has enshrined it in the public sphere, I do now. If you want to use your admin powers to make it private, I'm perfectly fine with that.

Meta-jerk? Echo-Jerk? Jerkerang? Double-jerk? Jerk-o-matic? Bang-a-jerk?

Claudiu:
It's one thing to feel misery, it's another to thump your chest as to how much misery you felt in the past. You don't agree that the latter is sort of a stupid thing to do - to take pride in how much you have suffered?


Here it is, very sincerely, what I think: I think that your reply had nothing to do with either of the two posters; it was not written with their best interest in mind.

I think that it was just an expression of your actualism.

You were completely blind and uncaring to what the two of them have gone through, one of whom apparently is still going through, and instead you find it is a good opportunity to teach them (and us) a lesson, to spew the philosophy you currently believe in... that you feel that the latter is more important, by your current internal means of measuring such things, is what made you a jerk in this particular instance (I don't mean it in general, as in you "are" a jerk, but specifically, as in you were a jerk).

I much prefer my kind of jerk, which reactively makes a mistake in heat of the moment, than your kind of jerk, which requires a philosophical stance, a premeditated decision, a verbal sophistication (I must even admit, your jerk text is rather well-written), and, in the end, fails to see something so simple...

You failed to realize that the people whom you purport to teach your little lesson have gone through some really hard times, and that they are not just a good opportunity for you to spin your dogma or exercise your agenda...

This has nothing to do with training the mind to be happier, or see more clearly, this is really toxic stuff. It is part of what is wrong with actualism.

RE: need advice on how to hide insight progress.
Answer
9/23/13 7:12 PM as a reply to Bruno Loff.
Bruno Loff:
Beoman Claudiu Dragon Emu Fire Golem:
Lol. What's the word for when someone calls someone else a jerk and thus acts like a jerk in the process?


Lol, you're right. I was just coming over here to delete the post and send you a private message instead. I had no interest in making the message public, I didn't mean it as a political point. But since your reply has enshrined it in the public sphere, I do now. If you want to use your admin powers to make it private, I'm perfectly fine with that.

Alright. I don't mind either way. And I can't say I've never done the same! But anyway you got to elaborate your point so we can talk about that.

Bruno Loff:
Meta-jerk? Echo-Jerk? Jerkerang? Double-jerk? Jerk-o-matic? Bang-a-jerk?

Hmm maybe jerk-a-jerk? Sounds kinda funny. Jerkerang kinda works too...

Bruno Loff:
Claudiu:
It's one thing to feel misery, it's another to thump your chest as to how much misery you felt in the past. You don't agree that the latter is sort of a stupid thing to do - to take pride in how much you have suffered?


Here it is, very sincerely, what I think: I think that your reply had nothing to do with either of the two posters; it was not written with their best interest in mind.

I think that it was just an expression of your actualism.

You were completely blind and uncaring to what the two of them have gone through, one of whom apparently is still going through, and instead you find it is a good opportunity to teach them (and us) a lesson, to spew the philosophy you currently believe in... that you feel that the latter is more important, by your current internal means of measuring such things, is what made you a jerk in this particular instance (I don't mean it in general, as in you "are" a jerk, but specifically, as in you were a jerk).

I much prefer my kind of jerk, which reactively makes a mistake in heat of the moment, than your kind of jerk, which requires a philosophical stance, a premeditated decision, a verbal sophistication (I must even admit, your jerk text is rather well-written), and, in the end, fails to see something so simple...

You failed to realize that the people whom you purport to teach your little lesson have gone through some really hard times, and that they are not just a good opportunity for you to spin your dogma or exercise your agenda...

This has nothing to do with training the mind to be happier, or see more clearly, this is really toxic stuff. It is part of what is wrong with actualism.

Hehe well thanks for saying it was well-written. I did spend some time on it. Now about your points...

First of all, it's not like I haven't also experienced what they are talking about. Obviously my post was quite over the top and I never got into anything quite as bad as that, but I've been through some pretty awful dark-night-style suffering, both intense in-the-moment and prolonged over a few weeks or months, a general malaise. So I have some idea of where they are coming from - I wouldn't say I was blind.

As for being uncaring, you'll notice I exchanged quite a few posts with JEB to try to help him out of the funk he is feeling, on another thread. I certainly don't want him to feel bad or worse or keep feeling bad. I also wasn't attempting to offend him.

As to it being an expression of my actualism, well, if I hadn't been exposed to actualism I probably would have answered differently. That's not necessarily a bad thing in and of itself - it being an expression of my actualism.

I'm not sure what is so dogmatic or even actualism-specific about it though. My post wasn't as premeditated as you make out. I just saw that they were one-upping one another, I saw that they were one-upping one-another as to how much they had suffered ("The problems that I faced in my own dark night extend far beyond the realm of the mundane world."), I thought that was silly, so then I made fun of it. I wasn't trying to prove an agenda or a point or be dogmatic other than the fact that I thought it was silly to one-up people based on how much suffering you have gone through. There are many "one-upmanship" jokes out there as part of the culture which point to the general silliness of it, or to people's dislike of it, e.g.:

Three young women are at a cocktail party. The conversation turns to their position in life, and it's clear that they're trying to one-up each other.

The first one says, "My husband is taking me to the French Riviera for two weeks on vacation." She looks at the others with a superior demeanor.

The second one says, "Well, my husband just bought me a new Mercedes," and looks about with considerable pride.

Young woman number three says, "Well, to be perfectly honest with you, DAN AND I don't have much money and we don't have many mataerial possessions. However, one thing I can tell you about Dan, is that fourteen canaries can stand shoulder to shoulder on his erect penis."

After this, the first one looks shamefaced and says, "Girls, I've got a confession to make: I was just trying to impress you. You know that vacation
I was telling you about? Well, it's not to the French Riviera. It's to my folks' house in Terre Haute for two weeks."

The second one says, "Your honesty has shamed me. It's not a Mercedes; it's a Dodge Neon."

"Well, I've got a confession to make myself," says Stephanie, "Canary number fourteen has to stand on one leg."

All in all it seems you were more offended by my post than either HS or JEB (maybe they can chip in as to what their reactions were), which is sort of interesting... How do you think you would have reacted if some poster called "Mr. Jumbo" wrote exactly what I wrote instead of me?

EDIT: Note that I actually do appreciate discussing these things in a friendly tone!

RE: need advice on how to hide insight progress.
Answer
9/23/13 9:44 PM as a reply to Beoman Claudiu Dragon Emu Fire Golem.
I don’t really respond emotionally to people ridiculing me or disciplining me according to their ideals, so I was not really too concerned about the reply. While reading it, I thought for a moment that the Emu might have actually been through something similar that I had and sometimes still experience. I don’t go into such darkness on purpose, though. It kind of just happens. All of a sudden, sometimes my consciousness is aware of this vast sea of what appears to be self-imposed divisions of a collective human unconsiousness struggling against one another to be separate even though there is no real separation. This struggle seems to underlie all of human misery and hate. Perhaps it is hell.

RE: need advice on how to hide insight progress.
Answer
9/24/13 9:42 AM as a reply to J E B.
J E B:
I don’t really respond emotionally to people ridiculing me or disciplining me according to their ideals, so I was not really too concerned about the reply. While reading it, I thought for a moment that the Emu might have actually been through something similar that I had and sometimes still experience. I don’t go into such darkness on purpose, though. It kind of just happens. All of a sudden, sometimes my consciousness is aware of this vast sea of what appears to be self-imposed divisions of a collective human unconsiousness struggling against one another to be separate even though there is no real separation. This struggle seems to underlie all of human misery and hate. Perhaps it is hell.

I didn't have this in mind when writing that, but I might have experienced something similar once. It happened at the onset of a shrooms trip. What happened is some issue that was bothering me came up greatly intensified, and then it shifted from a personal issue causing me trouble to humanity's issue causing all of humanity trouble. It was like a vast sea of bitter sadness and frustration all weighing in on me. I thought it would be a bad idea to encourage that or delve into it, though, so I managed to side-step it, which I think was for the best. It doesn't come up in my daily life, though.

RE: need advice on how to hide insight progress.
Answer
9/24/13 10:16 AM as a reply to Beoman Claudiu Dragon Emu Fire Golem.
Beoman Claudiu Dragon Emu Fire Golem:
J E B:
I don’t really respond emotionally to people ridiculing me or disciplining me according to their ideals, so I was not really too concerned about the reply. While reading it, I thought for a moment that the Emu might have actually been through something similar that I had and sometimes still experience. I don’t go into such darkness on purpose, though. It kind of just happens. All of a sudden, sometimes my consciousness is aware of this vast sea of what appears to be self-imposed divisions of a collective human unconsiousness struggling against one another to be separate even though there is no real separation. This struggle seems to underlie all of human misery and hate. Perhaps it is hell.

I didn't have this in mind when writing that, but I might have experienced something similar once. It happened at the onset of a shrooms trip. What happened is some issue that was bothering me came up greatly intensified, and then it shifted from a personal issue causing me trouble to humanity's issue causing all of humanity trouble. It was like a vast sea of bitter sadness and frustration all weighing in on me. I thought it would be a bad idea to encourage that or delve into it, though, so I managed to side-step it, which I think was for the best. It doesn't come up in my daily life, though.


I don't think that usually comes up in peoples' daily lives, because that is what seems to be the very purpose of things being in the collective unconscious. Only when the light of awareness shines on it does it ever get revealed. Shrooms being highly myceliac to earth's shared psychic energies probably have a lot to do with it being atuned to during trips. I think that my atunement to it comes from my brain getting easily stuck in certain kinds of wave cycles. I think that I might suffer somewhat from high level autism, which too, might be the reason why it is so easy for me to dissociate from emotions.

RE: need advice on how to hide insight progress.
Answer
9/24/13 10:31 AM as a reply to Bruno Loff.
My point was not to compete with someone over how much misery one has experienced, but rather to express how I have gone through so much suffering and also have had to confront and ignore so many expectations of those around me who do not know what it is like to have the kind of experiences in life that I have had to endure. To me, everyone around me seems like they are little babies living in contrived little cages while I walk around their shallow little prison mazes of their own making hoping to make me trip over them all the while pretending to care about me. What they think is so important in their little trivial world matters so little, yet they have the attitude that there is something wrong with anyone who does not pretend to be interested in their petty little dramatic strife that they create and get so into. I realize that relationships with them can only lead to stress and more needless, dramatic entanglements, so I advise to the original author of this thread to just do what one has to do and not get wrapped up in their silly little roles that they think are so important but clearly only have themselves in mind even though they say that it is for a mutual sharing. That kind of entrapment and sharing is something that people who value freedom don't really need.

RE: need advice on how to hide insight progress.
Answer
9/25/13 1:58 PM as a reply to Beoman Claudiu Dragon Emu Fire Golem.
Beoman Claudiu Dragon Emu Fire Golem:
How do you think you would have reacted if some poster called "Mr. Jumbo" wrote exactly what I wrote instead of me?


I would have thought: "how actualist of him" emoticon Actually the attitude itself is not exclusively (or originally) actualist; I associate it with egomania.

You might see your exchange with J E B on the other thread as a conversation that reveals a sense of caring, rather than an attempted conversion that reveals a form of egolatry, but that is par for the course.

I am reminded of this after reading Dan's essay, though I had come to this opinion before — I don't really think that there is anything wrong with some of the principles explicitly laid out in the actualism website (paying attention, investigating feelings, etc), I think that unfortunately, when people get exposed to these principles through that website, they tend to engage in certain mind bugs (which, like I said, are implicit and transmitted through the subtext, and are characteristic of Richard).

One such mind bug (and there are several more) is the ability to bypass the fact that someone is suffering and see it as an opportunity to "confirm one's perspective". Something like: "he is suffering / I am right in getting rid of my feelings" or "he is feeling sad about his life / it is because his point of view is wrong / because he doesn't have my point of view", etc. The actual why as in "why is he suffering" is irrelevant, what is relevant is "how can I portray his suffering as being a consequence of having feelings, or in any other way that reinforces my beliefs." That is what I mean by seeing it as an opportunity to spin your dogma: the most important thing in the exchange is not the well being of the other person, it is you — confirming your beliefs, sharing your worldview. [1]

It is no surprise that your exchange with J E B has been nothing more or less than you trying to convert him to your way of seeing things. Again: been there, done that. That kind of "caring" is about as far as can be from an act of genuine listening (in my opinion).

[1] And to be clear: just by themselves, sharing a worldview or looking to confirm one's beliefs is not grave (in my opinion), the reason why this is a problem is because of the opportunist attitude in the face of someone else's suffering; it is because of making one's actualist/whatever trip the most important thing, in the face of something drastic and difficult that has happened in someone else's life. Hence the egolatry.

RE: need advice on how to hide insight progress.
Answer
9/25/13 4:20 PM as a reply to Bruno Loff.
Hmm well. I don't see this as being any different from people helping each other out with anything. For example, let's say someone is struggling with math. It turns out their teacher didn't teach them some fundamentals. If I recall correctly, for example, a large number of elementary school math teachers couldn't explain why you have to add a zero or shift the numbers over to the left when you do multi-digit multiplication - they just knew you had to do it because that's the formula they learned. I then see that they're struggling with it so then I seek to help them understand it by explaining it, like oh, it's because of this and this - it makes sense if you think of it this way, etc.

Now someone else comes along and say my, how "mathematician" of me! I am opportunistically taking this chance of someone struggling with math and seeking to exploit it to prove my perspective, that my way of doing math is better. I am bypassing the fact that he is struggling with math and using it as an opportunity to "confirm my perspective". The actual reason he's struggling is irrelevant, what's relevant is, "how can I portray his trouble with math as being a consequence of the way he was taught math, or in any other way that reinforces my beliefs". The important thing is not the other person learning math better - it's me confirming my beliefs, sharing my worldview.

But really all that is happening in both cases is that I am trying to help the other person by sharing things that worked and are continuing to work for me.

So how is that not caring - sharing what you've experienced to help the other? And what would be caring if that isn't?

EDIT: It sounds like you are somehow sanctifying suffering. That because someone suffered greatly, we shouldn't discuss it. Or we should bow our heads and be reverent in the knowledge of it. Then do some "genuine listening" to the other person talking about it. And then - what then? What to do after the suffering has been accurately and rightfully acknowledged as really sucking and it being better if it weren't happening? Don't attempt to offer any help?

Reminds me of this funny youtube vid, "It's Not About the Nail". Granted, sometimes it's obvious that it's just not the situation to offer any advice. That whatever you say will just anger the other person more or make them sadder, etc. In that case then clearly there's no point in doing anything but listening.. but I didn't think this was one of those situations.

RE: need advice on how to hide insight progress.
Answer
9/26/13 12:22 AM as a reply to Bruno Loff.
Bruno Loff:

One such mind bug (and there are several more) is the ability to bypass the fact that someone is suffering and see it as an opportunity to "confirm one's perspective". Something like: "he is suffering / I am right in getting rid of my feelings" or "he is feeling sad about his life / it is because his point of view is wrong / because he doesn't have my point of view", etc. The actual why as in "why is he suffering" is irrelevant, what is relevant is "how can I portray his suffering as being a consequence of having feelings, or in any other way that reinforces my beliefs." That is what I mean by seeing it as an opportunity to spin your dogma: the most important thing in the exchange is not the well being of the other person, it is you — confirming your beliefs, sharing your worldview. [1]


This is a great observation, although I don't agree with blaming actualism for that. Au contraire.

I can see a lot of that behavior in my past times practicing actualism. I tended to see the world with that filter of sensible-me, silly-them, until I realized how selfish that operation was. It was the ol' 'us vs them' tribal thinking, the need to defend my own position through offense. Offense is often the best defense.

But, Bruno, please see how this is not a byproduct of actualism per se but part of the human condition. The responsibility is on the practitioner, not in the practice. An actualist is like any other human being who clings to numerous kinds of things and adopts them as beliefs. Actualism then can become like any other passional belief.

I think that is only later in this path that selfing begins to recede and altruism commences to become obvious in the sense of seeing other's suffering just as a manifestation of a program and not because their supposed particular inferiority. Nobody is to blame for carrying this condition, and nowadays I'm beginning to see other's suffering as a reminder of how insidious can be in them and in me, and how urgently do I want to be free from it in order, also, to stop those malicious behavior and superiority complexes that you see in some of the practitioners.

But let's be clear that suffering and its causes don't need to be tolerated or respected in any way. When you see the causes that support suffering clearly, then the vehemence with which some speak about feelings, for example, can be understandable. The thing is not to be politically correct or over-tolerant, but, also, not malicious or uncaring, when thinking about these things. Also, not so serious.

RE: need advice on how to hide insight progress.
Answer
9/26/13 10:00 AM as a reply to Felipe C..
I find it interesting that the conversation about me has somehow lost sight of what I have actually said about my own condition. It's kind of like a group therapy, except that there is only one patient and three psychiatrists, kinda flip side donchathink? Anyway, what seems to be missed by all of you is how I have mentioned my own way of dealing with my suffering. Firstly, the Emo seems to have missed that I ACTUALLY use what appears to be ACTUALISM in what would appear to be a much more successful way than it is even suggesting in that I have mentioned time and time again that I no longer identify with emotions as I see them as mere brain chemistry. I have realized, perhaps through insight meditation, how identifying with anything with the self or Self or survival instincts and emotions for that matter do end up causing suffering. The Emo must be in some sort of brain washed daze to miss this part of our discourse. Not only do I not identify with emotions, but I no longer see the self or Self as existing, so why would this not be Actual Freedom. The only self that seems to actually exist is the physical body, brain, and senses as everything else can be attributed to residual effects of brain chemistry and have no actual substance besides say brain waves generated by the brain's own neural activity.

Personally, I see Actual Freedom, and yes, I have studied it in depth, as being nothing more than the Buddha's goal of para-nirvana, which would result in the complete end of not only self but also all suffering associated with it.

My main problem in life is that the whole mundane world system seems to be forcing everyone to comply to it not really caring what kind of suffering it contributes to the collective human condition. This is not necessarily a personal suffering that I am referring to.

RE: need advice on how to hide insight progress.
Answer
9/26/13 10:33 AM as a reply to J E B.
J E B:

My main problem in life is that the whole mundane world system seems to be forcing everyone to comply to it not really caring what kind of suffering it contributes to the collective human condition. This is not necessarily a personal suffering that I am referring to.


But the whole mundane world-system CAN'T care about the suffering it causes, because it's just a collection of artifacts layered together as institutions, roles, rules, etc. Isn't the point that The System is inhuman? In the sense that it is non-human (though composed of human artifacts) and in the sense that it's effect on humans is dehumanizing. Probably this has always been the case-- humans have been largely (at first and for the most part, as Heidegger puts it) hypnotized by their own cultural/institutional artifacts, which then as memes have a self-replicating, self-organizing life of their own. But it seems to be reaching a bigger (and deeper) scale with modern technology, and the wholesale transformation of all phenomena in Universe into resources for a blind process of techno-organization.

Your point about this not being a personal suffering you are refferring to: I wonder whether some of the responses you are getting seem targeted at your assumed personal suffering becuase of how you are writing about this-- it comes across as if you are really suffering about this. Also, many of your posts refer to 'them' and how 'they' are whatever they are that they shouldn't be which causes this problem. So rather than compassion for folks in relation to the System and how at first and for the most part folks are hypnotized by it, the tone of your posts sounds more resentful. FWIW, I am trying to give you feedback on how you may be coming across. If it is a compassionate response to the suffering of humans trapped in their cages, perhaps you could try to express it in a way that reflects that better than you are doing here, as it sounds more like you resent them for being trapped.

RE: need advice on how to hide insight progress.
Answer
9/26/13 11:05 AM as a reply to J E B.
J E B:
I find it interesting that the conversation about me has somehow lost sight of what I have actually said about my own condition. It's kind of like a group therapy, except that there is only one patient and three psychiatrists, kinda flip side donchathink?

Heh yeah I noticed this too. The thing is this sub-thread isn't talking about you. Bruno was talking about actualism & about me, and so am I and so is Felipe. It just so happens it was triggered based on something I said to you.

J E B:
Anyway, what seems to be missed by all of you is how I have mentioned my own way of dealing with my suffering. Firstly, the Emo seems to have missed that I ACTUALLY use what appears to be ACTUALISM in what would appear to be a much more successful way than it is even suggesting in that I have mentioned time and time again that I no longer identify with emotions as I see them as mere brain chemistry. I have realized, perhaps through insight meditation, how identifying with anything with the self or Self or survival instincts and emotions for that matter do end up causing suffering. The Emo must be in some sort of brain washed daze to miss this part of our discourse. Not only do I not identify with emotions, but I no longer see the self or Self as existing, so why would this not be Actual Freedom. The only self that seems to actually exist is the physical body, brain, and senses as everything else can be attributed to residual effects of brain chemistry and have no actual substance besides say brain waves generated by the brain's own neural activity.

I didn't miss this, although now I see that I didn't comment on it. I didn't want to get into it at the time, but what you are describing is in fact entirely antithetical to actualism. Actualism isn't about not identifying with emotions and seeing them as mere brain chemistry. Actualism is more about realizing that emotions are 'me' and 'I' am 'my' emotions - which is the opposite of not identifying. When there are no emotions, there's no brain chemistry relating to emotions, residual or otherwise. So if there's "brain chemistry" and you're feeling an emotion but not identifying with it and also not seeing it as self or as Self, then you're not actually free, rather, you're dissociating from your emotions which are still there.

J E B:
Personally, I see Actual Freedom, and yes, I have studied it in depth, as being nothing more than the Buddha's goal of para-nirvana, which would result in the complete end of not only self but also all suffering associated with it.

Hmm, well that's quite different than not identifying with emotions and "no longer seeing the self or Self as existing". Also note that para-nirvana happens when you die after having reached nirvana, while actual freedom happens while you're still alive and well without necessarily having reached nirvana first.

RE: need advice on how to hide insight progress.
Answer
9/26/13 11:14 AM as a reply to . Jake ..
. Jake .:
J E B:

My main problem in life is that the whole mundane world system seems to be forcing everyone to comply to it not really caring what kind of suffering it contributes to the collective human condition. This is not necessarily a personal suffering that I am referring to.


But the whole mundane world-system CAN'T care about the suffering it causes, because it's just a collection of artifacts layered together as institutions, roles, rules, etc. Isn't the point that The System is inhuman? In the sense that it is non-human (though composed of human artifacts) and in the sense that it's effect on humans is dehumanizing. Probably this has always been the case-- humans have been largely (at first and for the most part, as Heidegger puts it) hypnotized by their own cultural/institutional artifacts, which then as memes have a self-replicating, self-organizing life of their own. But it seems to be reaching a bigger (and deeper) scale with modern technology, and the wholesale transformation of all phenomena in Universe into resources for a blind process of techno-organization.

Your point about this not being a personal suffering you are refferring to: I wonder whether some of the responses you are getting seem targeted at your assumed personal suffering becuase of how you are writing about this-- it comes across as if you are really suffering about this. Also, many of your posts refer to 'them' and how 'they' are whatever they are that they shouldn't be which causes this problem. So rather than compassion for folks in relation to the System and how at first and for the most part folks are hypnotized by it, the tone of your posts sounds more resentful. FWIW, I am trying to give you feedback on how you may be coming across. If it is a compassionate response to the suffering of humans trapped in their cages, perhaps you could try to express it in a way that reflects that better than you are doing here, as it sounds more like you resent them for being trapped.


I think that you and others have projected the "THEY" and "THEM" stuff as being rather vague pointings. I have mentioned all along what I was referring to. Also, there is not so much resentment as it is frustration at those who not only find themselves trapped, but don't care that they are trapped and who try to trap others further. Yes, it is the tragedy of the complacent, human condition that "THEY" have created non-human systems to systematize and entrap "THEMSELVES" and 'EVERYONE ELSE" including and especially those who are awakening and would like to spread freedom instead. This is a very real problem that few seem to accept as happening. Those who frequent meditation and actualist communities seem to like to further similar types of memes as the rest of mundane humanity and rarely realize that "THEY THEMSELVES" are contributing to a similar kind of LACK OF FREEDOM. Sometimes anger IS what is prescribed. Not only do you seem to further a lack of freedom in the guise of freedom and enlightenment, but also you seem rather judgmental about EVERYTHING that ANYONE has to say contrary to your own memes.

RE: need advice on how to hide insight progress.
Answer
9/26/13 11:29 AM as a reply to Beoman Claudiu Dragon Emu Fire Golem.
To the Emu:

The Buddha did say that he had attained para-nirvana before death, but that he would refrain from entering into it further until death out of compassion for those who have not found a final release in this life. In other words, he chose to share compassionately with those suffering around him the way out rather than going on his way willfully ignoring it in a bliss of his own.

If you mean that actual freedom is the physical brain and its chemistry as being the self, then I would agree with you, but I was referring to the non-physical, psychological self that results from extrapolated mind states of those neuro-chemical processes. That is what I do not identify with.

However, actualism as well as enlightenment, in the end do not really offer the fix-all that they are believed to be, even though that is usually the very reason why people buy into the advertisement of said memes.

RE: need advice on how to hide insight progress.
Answer
9/26/13 11:52 AM as a reply to J E B.
[quote=J E B (to Jake)]I think that you and others have projected the "THEY" and "THEM" stuff as being rather vague pointings. I have mentioned all along what I was referring to. Also, there is not so much resentment as it is frustration at those who not only find themselves trapped, but don't care that they are trapped and who try to trap others further. Yes, it is the tragedy of the complacent, human condition that "THEY" have created non-human systems to systematize and entrap "THEMSELVES" and 'EVERYONE ELSE" including and especially those who are awakening and would like to spread freedom instead. This is a very real problem that few seem to accept as happening. Those who frequent meditation and actualist communities seem to like to further similar types of memes as the rest of mundane humanity and rarely realize that "THEY THEMSELVES" are contributing to a similar kind of LACK OF FREEDOM.
Well, the reactions to actualism and actual freedom and Richard certainly speak to your point. These are the reactions to someone who not only offers but also lives a way to be unconditionally happy and free of malice: "derision, disparagement, scorn, mockery, disdain, belittlement, vilification, denigration, contempt, castigation, disapprobation, denunciation, and condemnation (and discrimination as evidenced by bad-mouthing, backbiting, slander, libel, defamation and a whole range of slurs, smears, censures, admonishments, reproaches, reprovals, and so on)", or subsumption, or modification (which Dan Ingram's essay detailed an example of).

[quote=J E B (to Jake)]Sometimes anger IS what is prescribed. Not only do you seem to further a lack of freedom in the guise of freedom and enlightenment, but also you seem rather judgmental about EVERYTHING that ANYONE has to say contrary to your own memes.
Yea the thing is, although anger is a natural and obvious reaction, it doesn't really help at all. Being angry at someone will certainly not convince them to be free. It'll just bring up their defenses and they'll see how they can get out of the situation, which could be by trying to appease you but not really changing. Also there's the fact that if you're angry you yourself are not free, so you'll be inherently hypocritical by trying to get others to be free by being angry at them, which they will notice, consciously or not.

[quote=J E B (to Emu)]The Buddha did say that he had attained para-nirvana before death, but that he would refrain from entering into it further until death out of compassion for those who have not found a final release in this life. In other words, he chose to share compassionately with those suffering around him the way out rather than going on his way willfully ignoring it in a bliss of his own.
I'm not so sure. "In Buddhism, parinirvana is the complete nirvana, which occurs upon the death of the body of someone who has attained complete awakening (bodhi). [...] The parinirvana of the Buddha is described in the Mahāparinibbāna Sutta." What do you base your statement on?

[quote=J E B (to Emu)]If you mean that actual freedom is the physical brain and its chemistry as being the self, then I would agree with you, but I was referring to the non-physical, psychological self that results from extrapolated mind states of those neuro-chemical processes. That is what I do not identify with.
Ok, so you don't identify with it - but does it still happen? My point is, if it happens at all, then you are not free. Further, because the illusory self you believe yourself to be *is* that very process, that *is* your identity, so not identifying with your identity seems misguided.

Also note that to some degree, feelings are what cause some of those processes to start happening in the first place - so although the physical effects like raised heart-beat, muscles contracting, sweating, palpitations, etc., are not the illusory non-physical 'self', they happen as a result of that illusory self being there in the first place. So, with neither feelings nor an identity nor a self etc., those sorts of processes wouldn't happen anymore. See here, for example.

RE: need advice on how to hide insight progress.
Answer
9/26/13 12:01 PM as a reply to Beoman Claudiu Dragon Emu Fire Golem.
You are funny, Emu, or as Richard says, "SILLY", which is what? Ridicule? There are also all kinds of hateful things spoken about almost every other belief system besides Actual Freedom on his site as well as the entire human condition, which is basically all that I have done as well. The difference would seem to be a matter of personas. I am not Richard and therefore even if I said exactly what Richard said in the way that Richard said it, it is only o.k. for the almighty Richard to say such things.

One can choose to use emotions as tools without being bound to them, which is what "THEY" seem to be doing on the AF website as well with all the silliness and anti-every-other-belief-system junk.

I am not saying that either AF or Buddhism are completely bad, but they definitely do not offer what they claim to offer people, and if this is pointed out, then of course that person just hasn't meditated enough or applied the AF algorithm enough. Whatever!

RE: need advice on how to hide insight progress.
Answer
9/26/13 12:37 PM as a reply to J E B.
J E B:

Yes, it is the tragedy of the complacent, human condition that "THEY" have created non-human systems to systematize and entrap "THEMSELVES" and 'EVERYONE ELSE" including and especially those who are awakening and would like to spread freedom instead.


Really? How do you know?

J E B:


This is a very real problem that few seem to accept as happening.


I agree that humans being entrapped by memes is definitely a very real problem. I think I may have even implied that or stated it explicitly in my last response- did you read it? I disagree that 'few seem to accept it as happening' as I'm not sure why there isn't a differentiation between 'few accept' and 'few are aware' which are two different things. I think few are aware that itis happenning. Of those who are aware, I don't know how many accept. i think the bigger issue is raising awareness, not getting people allready aware to accept it.


J E B:


Sometimes anger IS what is prescribed. Not only do you seem to further a lack of freedom in the guise of freedom and enlightenment, but also you seem rather judgmental about EVERYTHING that ANYONE has to say contrary to your own memes.



It's nice that you said 'you seem'. Are you sure that your perception is accurate?

RE: need advice on how to hide insight progress.
Answer
9/26/13 1:15 PM as a reply to . Jake ..
. Jake .:
J E B:

Yes, it is the tragedy of the complacent, human condition that "THEY" have created non-human systems to systematize and entrap "THEMSELVES" and 'EVERYONE ELSE" including and especially those who are awakening and would like to spread freedom instead.


1. Really? How do you know?

J E B:


This is a very real problem that few seem to accept as happening.


2. I agree that humans being entrapped by memes is definitely a very real problem. I think I may have even implied that or stated it explicitly in my last response- did you read it? I disagree that 'few seem to accept it as happening' as I'm not sure why there isn't a differentiation between 'few accept' and 'few are aware' which are two different things. I think few are aware that itis happenning. Of those who are aware, I don't know how many accept. i think the bigger issue is raising awareness, not getting people allready aware to accept it.


J E B:


Sometimes anger IS what is prescribed. Not only do you seem to further a lack of freedom in the guise of freedom and enlightenment, but also you seem rather judgmental about EVERYTHING that ANYONE has to say contrary to your own memes.



3. It's nice that you said 'you seem'. Are you sure that your perception is accurate?


1. I know because I see it happening all the time. Like I said elsewhere, when the systems seem to be working for people, even those who meditate and experience actualism, they tend to hide behind the systems that they are forced to use in order to provide their own means of survival. They do not buck the system and do not tend to speak against it, because they are subject to it as much if not more than everyone else who are unaware of it.

2. I agree that most are not aware, but those who ACTUALLY ARE aware of it also tend to remain silent about it, because they have a place in that very fabricated, hyper-real, social order, which begs the question, "Are they really as benevolent as they try to make themselves out to be?"

3. I am sure that what I have been referring to is accurate, but as for knowing any ultimate reality or overall truth, I'm not so sure that even exists.

RE: need advice on how to hide insight progress.
Answer
9/26/13 1:19 PM as a reply to J E B.
J E B:
You are funny, Emu, or as Richard says, "SILLY", which is what? Ridicule? There are also all kinds of hateful things spoken about almost every other belief system besides Actual Freedom on his site as well as the entire human condition, which is basically all that I have done as well. The difference would seem to be a matter of personas. I am not Richard and therefore even if I said exactly what Richard said in the way that Richard said it, it is only o.k. for the almighty Richard to say such things.

Hmm I'm sorry but I don't understand what you are saying here. I was agreeing with you speaking out against the human condition, particularly that people tend to resist freedom and that they work to keep other people mired in whatever it is they are mired in, often without realizing they are doing it. Of course Richard and others speak out against the human condition all over the AFT site as well, because the human condition does indeed suck.

RE: need advice on how to hide insight progress.
Answer
9/26/13 1:29 PM as a reply to Beoman Claudiu Dragon Emu Fire Golem.
Beoman Claudiu Dragon Emu Fire Golem:
J E B:
You are funny, Emu, or as Richard says, "SILLY", which is what? Ridicule? There are also all kinds of hateful things spoken about almost every other belief system besides Actual Freedom on his site as well as the entire human condition, which is basically all that I have done as well. The difference would seem to be a matter of personas. I am not Richard and therefore even if I said exactly what Richard said in the way that Richard said it, it is only o.k. for the almighty Richard to say such things.

Hmm I'm sorry but I don't understand what you are saying here. I was agreeing with you speaking out against the human condition, particularly that people tend to resist freedom and that they work to keep other people mired in whatever it is they are mired in, often without realizing they are doing it. Of course Richard and others speak out against the human condition all over the AFT site as well, because the human condition does indeed suck.


What I am saying is that AFT has all kinds of emotional rants, especially from Richard and Peter, but as soon as anyone else fabricates emotional statements for whatever reason, those other people are dead wrong for doing it.

Also, I am saying that neither enlightenment nor actual freedom really do what they are purported to do, especially for those who do not have a place in the hyper-real social order that exists. They only work for those who already have a place in life, unless of course one chooses to go live in a monastery in thailand or on some riverboat in a rain forest in australia or some such isolated place like that.

RE: need advice on how to hide insight progress.
Answer
9/26/13 1:39 PM as a reply to J E B.
J E B:
Beoman Claudiu Dragon Emu Fire Golem:
J E B:
You are funny, Emu, or as Richard says, "SILLY", which is what? Ridicule? There are also all kinds of hateful things spoken about almost every other belief system besides Actual Freedom on his site as well as the entire human condition, which is basically all that I have done as well. The difference would seem to be a matter of personas. I am not Richard and therefore even if I said exactly what Richard said in the way that Richard said it, it is only o.k. for the almighty Richard to say such things.

Hmm I'm sorry but I don't understand what you are saying here. I was agreeing with you speaking out against the human condition, particularly that people tend to resist freedom and that they work to keep other people mired in whatever it is they are mired in, often without realizing they are doing it. Of course Richard and others speak out against the human condition all over the AFT site as well, because the human condition does indeed suck.


What I am saying is that AFT has all kinds of emotional rants, especially from Richard and Peter, but as soon as anyone else fabricates emotional statements for whatever reason, those other people are dead wrong for doing it.

Oh gotcha. I disagree that Richard's writings are emotional rants. I have seen and heard him speaking in person using almost the exact same wording as some of the stuff that seemed emotional in writing, and there was not a trace of emotion at all when he said it. Even the stuff that seemed malicious or vindictive or whatever. I do agree that it's easy to read emotions into the writing, however.

Anyway what do you mean by being dead wrong for writing emotional statements? Dead wrong about what?

J E B:
Also, I am saying that neither enlightenment nor actual freedom really do what they are purported to do, especially for those who do not have a place in the hyper-real social order that exists. They only work for those who already have a place in life, unless of course one chooses to go live in a monastery in thailand or on some riverboat in a rain forest in australia or some such isolated place like that.
Ok I see you want me to address this point but I don't see anything useful I can say except that I disagree. Also Richard doesn't live in a secluded rain forest in Australia, he lives near a small town and often goes there to eat and shop etc., interacting with people all the time - at least that's what we did while I was there.

RE: need advice on how to hide insight progress.
Answer
9/26/13 1:53 PM as a reply to Beoman Claudiu Dragon Emu Fire Golem.
Beoman Claudiu Dragon Emu Fire Golem:
J E B:
Beoman Claudiu Dragon Emu Fire Golem:
J E B:
You are funny, Emu, or as Richard says, "SILLY", which is what? Ridicule? There are also all kinds of hateful things spoken about almost every other belief system besides Actual Freedom on his site as well as the entire human condition, which is basically all that I have done as well. The difference would seem to be a matter of personas. I am not Richard and therefore even if I said exactly what Richard said in the way that Richard said it, it is only o.k. for the almighty Richard to say such things.

Hmm I'm sorry but I don't understand what you are saying here. I was agreeing with you speaking out against the human condition, particularly that people tend to resist freedom and that they work to keep other people mired in whatever it is they are mired in, often without realizing they are doing it. Of course Richard and others speak out against the human condition all over the AFT site as well, because the human condition does indeed suck.


What I am saying is that AFT has all kinds of emotional rants, especially from Richard and Peter, but as soon as anyone else fabricates emotional statements for whatever reason, those other people are dead wrong for doing it.

1. Oh gotcha. I disagree that Richard's writings are emotional rants. I have seen and heard him speaking in person using almost the exact same wording as some of the stuff that seemed emotional in writing, and there was not a trace of emotion at all when he said it. Even the stuff that seemed malicious or vindictive or whatever. I do agree that it's easy to read emotions into the writing, however.

2. Anyway what do you mean by being dead wrong for writing emotional statements? Dead wrong about what?

J E B:
Also, I am saying that neither enlightenment nor actual freedom really do what they are purported to do, especially for those who do not have a place in the hyper-real social order that exists. They only work for those who already have a place in life, unless of course one chooses to go live in a monastery in thailand or on some riverboat in a rain forest in australia or some such isolated place like that.
3. Ok I see you want me to address this point but I don't see anything useful I can say except that I disagree. Also Richard doesn't live in a secluded rain forest in Australia, he lives near a small town and often goes there to eat and shop etc., interacting with people all the time - at least that's what we did while I was there.


1. That's my point. What makes you think that I am not doing the same as you say Richard does with no actual emotion behind the words? Is it because I'm not Richard? It would seem that that is the case.

2. You keep harping on my emotions and that they indicate that I am not actually free and still in need of actual freedom or some such attainment. Again, how do you know this? Because I'm not Richard? Seems like it.

3. The AFT website shows him living on a riverboat, and his writings indicate that he does not like social roles, emotional interactions of any kind, and has a disdain for hyper-reality. Are you saying that he is projecting something on his website that is not like how he actually is? He apparently has some way of fitting into the social order of things or else he would not be able to eat. Maybe he is living off of donations.

RE: need advice on how to hide insight progress.
Answer
9/26/13 2:00 PM as a reply to J E B.
J E B:
1. That's my point. What makes you think that I am not doing the same as you say Richard does with no actual emotion behind the words? Is it because I'm not Richard? It would seem that that is the case.

Are you? You say that you are frustrated at people, for example.

J E B:
2. You keep harping on my emotions and that they indicate that I am not actually free and still in need of actual freedom or some such attainment. Again, how do you know this? Because I'm not Richard? Seems like it.

Em.. well actual freedom is a condition where there are no emotions... it's a definitional thing. You are not in a condition without emotions because you have emotions.

J E B:
3. The AFT website shows him living on a riverboat, and his writings indicate that he does not like social roles, emotional interactions of any kind, and has a disdain for hyper-reality. Are you saying that he is projecting something on his website that is not like how he actually is? He apparently has some way of fitting into the social order of things or else he would not be able to eat. Maybe he is living off of donations.

He does live on a riverboat, but not in a rain forest. He lives off a pension. Maybe one might say it's impossible to work and be actually free at the same time, yet Vineeto is actually free and she works as a bookkeeper (part-time, I think?). Yea clearly they have a way of "fitting into the social order", by which I mean interacting with people in order to secure income and survive. So apparently, never feeling bad or angry and enjoying yourself all the time doesn't mean that it's impossible to do that - who woulda thought?

RE: need advice on how to hide insight progress.
Answer
9/26/13 2:09 PM as a reply to Beoman Claudiu Dragon Emu Fire Golem.
Beoman Claudiu Dragon Emu Fire Golem:
J E B:
1. That's my point. What makes you think that I am not doing the same as you say Richard does with no actual emotion behind the words? Is it because I'm not Richard? It would seem that that is the case.

Are you? You say that you are frustrated at people, for example.

J E B:
2. You keep harping on my emotions and that they indicate that I am not actually free and still in need of actual freedom or some such attainment. Again, how do you know this? Because I'm not Richard? Seems like it.

Em.. well actual freedom is a condition where there are no emotions... it's a definitional thing. You are not in a condition without emotions because you have emotions.

J E B:
3. The AFT website shows him living on a riverboat, and his writings indicate that he does not like social roles, emotional interactions of any kind, and has a disdain for hyper-reality. Are you saying that he is projecting something on his website that is not like how he actually is? He apparently has some way of fitting into the social order of things or else he would not be able to eat. Maybe he is living off of donations.

He does live on a riverboat, but not in a rain forest. He lives off a pension. Maybe one might say it's impossible to work and be actually free at the same time, yet Vineeto is actually free and she works as a bookkeeper (part-time, I think?). Yea clearly they have a way of "fitting into the social order", by which I mean interacting with people in order to secure income and survive. So apparently, never feeling bad or angry and enjoying yourself all the time doesn't mean that it's impossible to do that - who woulda thought?


Actually, I DON'T feel anything unless of course I fabricate it. Are you saying that people who are Actually Free are not capable of fabricating any emotions at all, anymore? That isn't free, because it would mean that they are bound from doing something.

Almost all of the world requires people to be passionate towards their careers, or at least fabricate a.k.a. lie about it, and many paths in society require people to fight for their place in society through competition. Apparently, Richard as well as many people who lead others in meditation circles don't have to do these things like other "common" people do.

RE: need advice on how to hide insight progress.
Answer
9/26/13 2:16 PM as a reply to J E B.
J E B:
Actually, I DON'T feel anything unless of course I fabricate it. Are you saying that people who are Actually Free are not capable of fabricating any emotions at all, anymore? That isn't free, because it would mean that they are bound from doing something.

Yes, of course. I thought you said you had studied it in depth? Apparently not. This is a pretty difficult thing to miss.

J E B:
Almost all of the world requires people to be passionate towards their careers, or at least fabricate a.k.a. lie about it, and many paths in society require people to fight for their place in society through competition. Apparently, Richard as well as many people who lead others in meditation circles don't have to do these things like other "common" people do.
Well, Vineeto does (have to work), and she seems to get on just fine without being passionate towards a career.

RE: need advice on how to hide insight progress.
Answer
9/26/13 2:20 PM as a reply to Beoman Claudiu Dragon Emu Fire Golem.
Beoman Claudiu Dragon Emu Fire Golem:
J E B:
Actually, I DON'T feel anything unless of course I fabricate it. Are you saying that people who are Actually Free are not capable of fabricating any emotions at all, anymore? That isn't free, because it would mean that they are bound from doing something.

1. Yes, of course. I thought you said you had studied it in depth? Apparently not. This is a pretty difficult thing to miss.

J E B:
Almost all of the world requires people to be passionate towards their careers, or at least fabricate a.k.a. lie about it, and many paths in society require people to fight for their place in society through competition. Apparently, Richard as well as many people who lead others in meditation circles don't have to do these things like other "common" people do.
Well, 2. Vineeto does (have to work), and she seems to get on just fine without being passionate towards a career.


1. Well, quit contradicting yourself, then, and allow other people besides the almighty Richard to fabricate emotions, then.

2. Well, congratulations to the almighty Vineeto, then. Like I said, almost every other person in society DOES.

RE: need advice on how to hide insight progress.
Answer
9/26/13 2:30 PM as a reply to J E B.
J E B:
Beoman Claudiu Dragon Emu Fire Golem:
J E B:
Actually, I DON'T feel anything unless of course I fabricate it. Are you saying that people who are Actually Free are not capable of fabricating any emotions at all, anymore? That isn't free, because it would mean that they are bound from doing something.

1. Yes, of course. I thought you said you had studied it in depth? Apparently not. This is a pretty difficult thing to miss.

J E B:
Almost all of the world requires people to be passionate towards their careers, or at least fabricate a.k.a. lie about it, and many paths in society require people to fight for their place in society through competition. Apparently, Richard as well as many people who lead others in meditation circles don't have to do these things like other "common" people do.
Well, 2. Vineeto does (have to work), and she seems to get on just fine without being passionate towards a career.


1. Well, quit contradicting yourself, then, and allow other people besides the almighty Richard to fabricate emotions, then.

No, you misunderstood me. I meant that of course it is impossible for actually free people to fabricate any emotions at all, anytime. There are no more emotions when you are actually free. No self, no Self, no identity, no emotions. I thought you said you had studied actualism in depth? Apparently not. This is a pretty difficult thing to miss.

RE: need advice on how to hide insight progress.
Answer
9/26/13 2:42 PM as a reply to J E B.
J E B:

Yes, it is the tragedy of the complacent, human condition that "THEY" have created non-human systems to systematize and entrap "THEMSELVES" and 'EVERYONE ELSE" including and especially those who are awakening and would like to spread freedom instead.


1. Really? How do you know?

J E B:



1. I know because I see it happening all the time. Like I said elsewhere, when the systems seem to be working for people, even those who meditate and experience actualism, they tend to hide behind the systems that they are forced to use in order to provide their own means of survival. They do not buck the system and do not tend to speak against it, because they are subject to it as much if not more than everyone else who are unaware of it.



Interesting. You demonstrate little tendency/capacity/intent to notice how your views and assumptions may be coloring and filtering what you see, considering the fact that others seem to notice different things happening "all the time", or more to the point, some of the time. Or maybe you really do know what THEY do ALL THE TIME lol.

J E B:

I think that you and others have projected the "THEY" and "THEM" stuff


I think you are full of shit ;)

RE: need advice on how to hide insight progress.
Answer
9/26/13 2:48 PM as a reply to J E B.
J E B:

Also, I am saying that neither enlightenment nor actual freedom really do what they are purported to do, especially for those who do not have a place in the hyper-real social order that exists.


Sounds like frustration and/or resentment, however you want to phrase it. But maybe you have a place in the hyper-real social order?? Or maybe you just have an authentic place in life and are totally only motivated by frustration that others continue to suffer in and perpetuate this System? Anyone who doesn't live in a Monestary in Thailand or on a houseboat in Australia... 'have a place in the hyper-real social order'? Or are those places in the hyper-real order too?

RE: need advice on how to hide insight progress.
Answer
9/26/13 3:13 PM as a reply to . Jake ..
I think you are full of shit ;)


Likewise.

RE: need advice on how to hide insight progress.
Answer
9/26/13 3:17 PM as a reply to . Jake ..
. Jake .:
J E B:

Also, I am saying that neither enlightenment nor actual freedom really do what they are purported to do, especially for those who do not have a place in the hyper-real social order that exists.


Sounds like frustration and/or resentment, however you want to phrase it. But maybe you have a place in the hyper-real social order?? Or maybe you just have an authentic place in life and are totally only motivated by frustration that others continue to suffer in and perpetuate this System? Anyone who doesn't live in a Monestary in Thailand or on a houseboat in Australia... 'have a place in the hyper-real social order'? Or are those places in the hyper-real order too?


Most likely, those who are leaders of actualism or self-help/meditation authors are not as up there above everybody else as they like people to think.

RE: need advice on how to hide insight progress.
Answer
9/26/13 3:18 PM as a reply to Beoman Claudiu Dragon Emu Fire Golem.
Beoman Claudiu Dragon Emu Fire Golem:
J E B:
Beoman Claudiu Dragon Emu Fire Golem:
J E B:
Actually, I DON'T feel anything unless of course I fabricate it. Are you saying that people who are Actually Free are not capable of fabricating any emotions at all, anymore? That isn't free, because it would mean that they are bound from doing something.

1. Yes, of course. I thought you said you had studied it in depth? Apparently not. This is a pretty difficult thing to miss.

J E B:
Almost all of the world requires people to be passionate towards their careers, or at least fabricate a.k.a. lie about it, and many paths in society require people to fight for their place in society through competition. Apparently, Richard as well as many people who lead others in meditation circles don't have to do these things like other "common" people do.
Well, 2. Vineeto does (have to work), and she seems to get on just fine without being passionate towards a career.


1. Well, quit contradicting yourself, then, and allow other people besides the almighty Richard to fabricate emotions, then.

No, you misunderstood me. I meant that of course it is impossible for actually free people to fabricate any emotions at all, anytime. There are no more emotions when you are actually free. No self, no Self, no identity, no emotions. I thought you said you had studied actualism in depth? Apparently not. This is a pretty difficult thing to miss.


You are the one who doesn't seem to understand that even a self/persona can be fabricated as well as the emotions that go along with it by anyone, no matter what they claim to have attained.

RE: need advice on how to hide insight progress.
Answer
9/26/13 3:45 PM as a reply to J E B.
J E B:
You are the one who doesn't seem to understand that even a self/persona can be fabricated as well as the emotions that go along with it by anyone, no matter what they claim to have attained.
What do you base that on?

RE: need advice on how to hide insight progress.
Answer
9/26/13 4:16 PM as a reply to Beoman Claudiu Dragon Emu Fire Golem.
Beoman Claudiu Dragon Emu Fire Golem:
J E B:
You are the one who doesn't seem to understand that even a self/persona can be fabricated as well as the emotions that go along with it by anyone, no matter what they claim to have attained.
What do you base that on?


Common sense and logic. However, you are like everyone else who is infatuated by their leaders when if someone says something contradictory to what you believe about your leader or particular belief system that if the conclusions and experiences of others don't match what you believe about your leader or belief system, then that person must not have studied it enough our has misinterpreted it or misunderstood it somehow, which is not necessarily the case. You might just be brainwashed and your leader just might be a fraud.

RE: need advice on how to hide insight progress.
Answer
9/29/13 10:43 AM as a reply to Beoman Claudiu Dragon Emu Fire Golem.
Beoman Claudiu Dragon Emu Fire Golem:
These are the reactions to someone who not only offers but also lives a way to be unconditionally happy and free of malice: "derision, disparagement, scorn, mockery, disdain, belittlement, vilification, denigration, contempt, castigation, disapprobation, denunciation, and condemnation (and discrimination as evidenced by bad-mouthing, backbiting, slander, libel, defamation and a whole range of slurs, smears, censures, admonishments, reproaches, reprovals, and so on)", or subsumption, or modification (which Dan Ingram's essay detailed an example of).


Completely wrong. Example:

Richard (Sun Jan 22, 2012 1:18 pm): "Ha, yes, I am indeed still frolicsome -- ..........."

http://groups.yahoo.com/group/actualfreedom/message/10738

Richard (Wed Jan 25, 2012 5:40 pm): "And this means every single one of you who have played a part in driving/promoting/supporting this bizarre campaign. Put simply: your highly-prized and much-touted empathy (not to even mention compassion) sucks ... and sucks big time. You have all shown me your true colours."