Reichian Therapy - The Technique, For Home Use - Discussion
In response to Fabrice,
My best guess is that you've previously crossed the A&P, and you're cycling around ReOb or you've fallen back and are sitting in Cause and Effect. As Daniel has pointed out in other contexts: if you're hanging out on hardcore meditation forums, meditating for an hour+ a day, and in this case, investigating the body-based exercises invented by an obscure/defamed Austrian psychologist and scientist the chances of you not having hit the A&P is very low.
As this is a meditation forum I'll preface with this: finding your way to Equanimty, figuring out how to stay there, and then landing stream-entry and taking it from there is your best bet in relieving your symptoms. You can find the relevant information on that process elsewhere, but I can summarize my recommendation. Power the mindfulness all day, learn how to surrender at the peak of ReOb, experiment with tweaking the effort/do-nothing in low EQ, stay viligant, stick honestly to the bare/basic/direct/simple/immediate sensations, and practice well. It's also important to make strong resolutions regularly. Have you mastered noting? If not, do that asap.
That said, I find Reichian exercises highly complementary to vipassana. Here's a simple argument to explain the synergy. Vipassana can be defined informally as a gradual process of expanding awareness (defined loosely) to include previously unclear/unconscious mental processes and physical sensations. Mental and physical phenomena are intimately interconnected, and at a certain level, useless to separate conceptually or pragmatically. This insight shows itself early on in Cause and Effect and more clearly later when formations are experienced in Equanimity. Following common sense and the metaphor of chakras, certain parts of the body have certain mental or emotional correlates. When we're emotionally hurt we have a 'broken heart', when someone's flighty they don't have 'both feet on the ground', when we're nervous we get 'butterflies in the stomach', and so on. The metaphor of chakras obviously extends this common sense considerably. In any case, if we tentatively accept the body correlation hypothesis then it stands to reason that certain neuroses will have predictable physical markers. As it turns out, Reich and Lowen demonstrate just that in the books I mention later in this post. Neuroticism manifest as tensions and deadzones of energy in predictable places in the body. Reich also predicted that through simple physical exercises you could gradually elicit repressed emotions, recover repressed memories, and bring increased awareness to the physical tension and associated neuroses. The most difficult patterns of sensations to include within awareness are slippery neurotic processes that, through reinforcement since the childhood events that triggered them, constitute a significant portion of our character. Reichian exercises, in my experience, help tremendously to bring awareness to these processes that are difficult to be honest about and hence difficult to see clearly. It should be mentioned, Reich intended for the exercises to allow people to surrender to more complete orgasms. These theories are fascinating and controversial, but not necessary for an interested dabbler nor directly relevant or contradictory to the meditation connection I'm making.
Here's a relevant passage from MCTBI would argue that Reichian exercises (along with the awareness-expanding and energetic effects) provide an ideal method for precipitating psychological growth without a high risk of getting lost in content.
Although working with our 'stuff' and the practice of vipassana techniques should be clearly differentiated, it seems that working with our 'stuff' is necessary for progress at certain sticking points, and largely unavoidable in the long-run. I would also argue that Reichian exercises can be particularly useful during the DN. There have been times in the DN when my concentration is virtually gone, my body is stiff, and psychologizing is dangerously sticky. This isn't unusual, so I hear.
I've found that a Reichian session can really break up some of those irritating repetitive thought processes. Of course, physical exertion, dancing, walks in nature, and (attempting) socialization all help with this too. But, Reichian work will really target those patterns of mind, whereas the former are moreso skillful distractions.
I've mused about combining the systems of Reichian and vipassana after I reach some degree of mastery in both. The idea isn't completely new. As you mention, 'sense and feel sessions' are essentially vipassana lite. And, Ron Kurtz gave it a go with Hakomi:
I haven't researched Hakomi thoroughly, but I suspect it too is highly potent. Though, the mindfulness component sounds too light for me. 'evolved from Buddhism and Taoism' reads (to me) as 'misinterpreted and watered down from Buddhism and Taoism'. At least they mention the Reich influence, unlike EMDR and most other modern body-based approaches.
If you're interested in exploring character types from a body-based bioenergetic perspective check out Character Analysis by Wilhelm Reich, and Language of the Body by Alexander Lowen. If you match the rigid profile given on that website, check out the chapters in the above aboutthe compulsive and phallic-narcissistic type. I should warn you, both books are technical and dry. Lowen is slightly less dry. Both books are available online if you know where to look (message me if you need).
As far as other resources go, check the prettier version of this thread. I'm gonna make this post in the other thread too; if you respond please do it there
Also relevant are the books of Wilhelm Reich, Alexander Lowen, Peter A. Levine, John C. Pierrakos, Christopher Hyatt (Undoing Yourself and Secrets of Western Tantra), Nick Totton, and Ron Kurtz. Myron Sharaf's biography of Reich is also of interest. Robert Anton Wilson wrote a play called Wilhem Reich in Hell. Here's a noteworthy quote from the preface
RAW and Hyatt were friends, and both were familiar with at least Zen Buddhism (probably from Alan Watts, originally. RAW knew him personally). Hyatt went so far as to call himself a Buddhist for most of his adult life.
This turned out to be a long post; I've been reading Reich the past few days and haven't updated this thread in awhile. I've also experienced new results from the exercises, if anyone's interested in reading those. Good luck with stream-entry and Reichian!
My best guess is that you've previously crossed the A&P, and you're cycling around ReOb or you've fallen back and are sitting in Cause and Effect. As Daniel has pointed out in other contexts: if you're hanging out on hardcore meditation forums, meditating for an hour+ a day, and in this case, investigating the body-based exercises invented by an obscure/defamed Austrian psychologist and scientist the chances of you not having hit the A&P is very low.
As this is a meditation forum I'll preface with this: finding your way to Equanimty, figuring out how to stay there, and then landing stream-entry and taking it from there is your best bet in relieving your symptoms. You can find the relevant information on that process elsewhere, but I can summarize my recommendation. Power the mindfulness all day, learn how to surrender at the peak of ReOb, experiment with tweaking the effort/do-nothing in low EQ, stay viligant, stick honestly to the bare/basic/direct/simple/immediate sensations, and practice well. It's also important to make strong resolutions regularly. Have you mastered noting? If not, do that asap.
That said, I find Reichian exercises highly complementary to vipassana. Here's a simple argument to explain the synergy. Vipassana can be defined informally as a gradual process of expanding awareness (defined loosely) to include previously unclear/unconscious mental processes and physical sensations. Mental and physical phenomena are intimately interconnected, and at a certain level, useless to separate conceptually or pragmatically. This insight shows itself early on in Cause and Effect and more clearly later when formations are experienced in Equanimity. Following common sense and the metaphor of chakras, certain parts of the body have certain mental or emotional correlates. When we're emotionally hurt we have a 'broken heart', when someone's flighty they don't have 'both feet on the ground', when we're nervous we get 'butterflies in the stomach', and so on. The metaphor of chakras obviously extends this common sense considerably. In any case, if we tentatively accept the body correlation hypothesis then it stands to reason that certain neuroses will have predictable physical markers. As it turns out, Reich and Lowen demonstrate just that in the books I mention later in this post. Neuroticism manifest as tensions and deadzones of energy in predictable places in the body. Reich also predicted that through simple physical exercises you could gradually elicit repressed emotions, recover repressed memories, and bring increased awareness to the physical tension and associated neuroses. The most difficult patterns of sensations to include within awareness are slippery neurotic processes that, through reinforcement since the childhood events that triggered them, constitute a significant portion of our character. Reichian exercises, in my experience, help tremendously to bring awareness to these processes that are difficult to be honest about and hence difficult to see clearly. It should be mentioned, Reich intended for the exercises to allow people to surrender to more complete orgasms. These theories are fascinating and controversial, but not necessary for an interested dabbler nor directly relevant or contradictory to the meditation connection I'm making.
Here's a relevant passage from MCTB
All that said, there is some debate about what factors or progress allows some people to just notice the Three Characteristics of the sensations that make up their world in the face of their stuff as opposed to those who just flounder in their stuff. Some would argue that you have to havedone enough psychological work and deal with enough of your issues to get to the place were you can move on to the next stage. I must reluctantly admit that there is probably some truth to this. However, I didn’t consider myself particularly psychologically advanced when I started insight practices, as I had all kinds of stuff to deal with and still do, and yet somehow, perhaps through good instruction, perhaps through some other factors I have yet to identify, I was able to practice well despite it all and make the shift from being lost in content to noticing how things actually are.
Although working with our 'stuff' and the practice of vipassana techniques should be clearly differentiated, it seems that working with our 'stuff' is necessary for progress at certain sticking points, and largely unavoidable in the long-run. I would also argue that Reichian exercises can be particularly useful during the DN. There have been times in the DN when my concentration is virtually gone, my body is stiff, and psychologizing is dangerously sticky. This isn't unusual, so I hear.
I've found that a Reichian session can really break up some of those irritating repetitive thought processes. Of course, physical exertion, dancing, walks in nature, and (attempting) socialization all help with this too. But, Reichian work will really target those patterns of mind, whereas the former are moreso skillful distractions. I've mused about combining the systems of Reichian and vipassana after I reach some degree of mastery in both. The idea isn't completely new. As you mention, 'sense and feel sessions' are essentially vipassana lite. And, Ron Kurtz gave it a go with Hakomi:
Integrating scientific, psychological, and spiritual sources, Hakomi has evolved into a complex and elegant form of psychotherapy that is highly effective with a wide range of populations. The method draws from general systems theory and modern body-centered therapies including Gestalt, Psychomotor, Feldenkrais, Focusing, Ericksonian Hypnosis, Neurolinguistic Programming, and the work of Wilhelm Reich and AlexanderLowen. Core concepts of gentleness, nonviolence, compassion, and mindfulness evolved from Buddhism and Taoism.
If you're interested in exploring character types from a body-based bioenergetic perspective check out Character Analysis by Wilhelm Reich, and Language of the Body by Alexander Lowen. If you match the rigid profile given on that website, check out the chapters in the above aboutthe compulsive and phallic-narcissistic type. I should warn you, both books are technical and dry. Lowen is slightly less dry. Both books are available online if you know where to look (message me if you need).
As far as other resources go, check the prettier version of this thread. I'm gonna make this post in the other thread too; if you respond please do it there
Also relevant are the books of Wilhelm Reich, Alexander Lowen, Peter A. Levine, John C. Pierrakos, Christopher Hyatt (Undoing Yourself and Secrets of Western Tantra), Nick Totton, and Ron Kurtz. Myron Sharaf's biography of Reich is also of interest. Robert Anton Wilson wrote a play called Wilhem Reich in Hell. Here's a noteworthy quote from the prefaceWhen I am in my Reichian or neo-Reichian reality-tunnel, it seems overwhelmingly obvious to me that I live among a species that is desperately sick and desperately afraid of the changes it must undergo to be cured.
When I am in my Buddhist reality-tunnel, the medical metaphor of sickeness in Reich's system seems as over-simplified as the Christian metaphor of sin, and I merely see that the human race at this stage of its evolution has the habits inevitable at this stage of evolution. What is, is, and our evaluations of it are simply -- our evaluations of it.
When I am in my Buddhist reality-tunnel, the medical metaphor of sickeness in Reich's system seems as over-simplified as the Christian metaphor of sin, and I merely see that the human race at this stage of its evolution has the habits inevitable at this stage of evolution. What is, is, and our evaluations of it are simply -- our evaluations of it.
This turned out to be a long post; I've been reading Reich the past few days and haven't updated this thread in awhile. I've also experienced new results from the exercises, if anyone's interested in reading those. Good luck with stream-entry and Reichian!
I have read the first 50 pages or so of Jack Willis' book, and briefly looked over the other books.
I was quite intrigued by those new ideas. However, from Willis' book I got the following impression:
-change takes time. you have to do the exercises for months to notice anything
-you don't have a say in what actually changes
-you have to be careful. It you do it wrong, you're gonna screw up yourself in bad ways. Maybe you even screw up yourself if you're doing it right in which case Willis' advice is to simply stop the exercises completely.
However, there are methods which change your character and body but without those disadvantages: (Eugene Gendlin's) Focusing, Feldenkrais' method, the Brahmaviharas...
So why would you still choose the former over the latter?
I haven't actually tried Willis' exercises yet because I already have quite an intensive practice and am somewhat wary that I will freak out if I try them
My impression is that their only advantage may be that they take little time, but I may well have overlooked something.
I was quite intrigued by those new ideas. However, from Willis' book I got the following impression:
-change takes time. you have to do the exercises for months to notice anything
-you don't have a say in what actually changes
-you have to be careful. It you do it wrong, you're gonna screw up yourself in bad ways. Maybe you even screw up yourself if you're doing it right in which case Willis' advice is to simply stop the exercises completely.
However, there are methods which change your character and body but without those disadvantages: (Eugene Gendlin's) Focusing, Feldenkrais' method, the Brahmaviharas...
So why would you still choose the former over the latter?
I haven't actually tried Willis' exercises yet because I already have quite an intensive practice and am somewhat wary that I will freak out if I try them
My impression is that their only advantage may be that they take little time, but I may well have overlooked something.
Change A, I feel ya.
JJ, no problem. I like sharing beneficial practices that don't get enough attention. Check out that Buddhist Geeks video I linked above.
Also, that Wilhelm Reich Documentary Kickstarter that I linked here earlier somehow got funded
. I have no idea how, but it did. I'm looking forward to it.
JJ, no problem. I like sharing beneficial practices that don't get enough attention. Check out that Buddhist Geeks video I linked above.
Also, that Wilhelm Reich Documentary Kickstarter that I linked here earlier somehow got funded
. I have no idea how, but it did. I'm looking forward to it.
I now took the time to completely read the Willis' book. Somehow I'm willing to give this a real try after my upcoming New Year's retreat, although I'm still skeptical about much of the content.
For example:
-Willis' digressions about the state of society seem rather ridiculous.
-I don't buy into the 'anger is the repressed emotion'-thing, which serves as a justification for the exercises which make you feel anger. Also I discover enough anger by sitting through a few Vipassana retreats, I don't think I need any more of that.
-Many of the exercises, especially the breathing thing, seem overly complicated, and hard to learn. My impression is that the Feldenkrais' method offers much better ways of learning the level of body control that Willis says is necessary. Also I'm quite bored with the 'you have to learn to breathe in the right way'-attitude. From the book I'm in no way convinced that anything about this kind of breathing is actually 'the right way'^TM.
Here is an excerpt which I guess sums up the idea of body-work quite well (ignoring hyperventilation). I wonder why it's not the first sentence in the book, but instead hidden on page 188:
Here's also an actual question: I'm quite puzzled about the Exercise in Chapter 21, the passive session. Isn't that just body scanning mixed with noting? Or is there a real difference? Why would it be dangerous to do that more than 2 times a week? Willis also says that meditation with focus on body sensations is in effect a passive session and must not be done if one also does the Reichian therapy exercises he presents. Come on, this is becoming ridiculous
For example:
-Willis' digressions about the state of society seem rather ridiculous.
-I don't buy into the 'anger is the repressed emotion'-thing, which serves as a justification for the exercises which make you feel anger. Also I discover enough anger by sitting through a few Vipassana retreats, I don't think I need any more of that.
-Many of the exercises, especially the breathing thing, seem overly complicated, and hard to learn. My impression is that the Feldenkrais' method offers much better ways of learning the level of body control that Willis says is necessary. Also I'm quite bored with the 'you have to learn to breathe in the right way'-attitude. From the book I'm in no way convinced that anything about this kind of breathing is actually 'the right way'^TM.
Here is an excerpt which I guess sums up the idea of body-work quite well (ignoring hyperventilation). I wonder why it's not the first sentence in the book, but instead hidden on page 188:
The purpose of pressure is to make the muscle sore. The reason for this is
straight physiology and neurology. The body responds to
soreness in a muscle by not tensing it as much. For a day or two
until the soreness passes, the muscle does not hold its normal
level of tension. The subconscious responds to this change of
body state and attempts to adjust to the change during the dream
cycle. The gradual change in character follows.
straight physiology and neurology. The body responds to
soreness in a muscle by not tensing it as much. For a day or two
until the soreness passes, the muscle does not hold its normal
level of tension. The subconscious responds to this change of
body state and attempts to adjust to the change during the dream
cycle. The gradual change in character follows.
Here's also an actual question: I'm quite puzzled about the Exercise in Chapter 21, the passive session. Isn't that just body scanning mixed with noting? Or is there a real difference? Why would it be dangerous to do that more than 2 times a week? Willis also says that meditation with focus on body sensations is in effect a passive session and must not be done if one also does the Reichian therapy exercises he presents. Come on, this is becoming ridiculous
bernd, I-d just pick what appeals to me and leave the other stuff. This body therapy is a great gate towards change, but by no means thoroughly researched. The guys seem to include all kinds of unfounded and unproven theories. I mean just see what ridiculous and even dangerous stuff e.g. Freud had in his work. At times he treated his female patients' ovaries with Röntgen beams Still, his core idea was great, and changed the treatment of psychological disorders forever. I consider the field of body therapy to be at a stage similar to that of psychotherapy in the 20ies, 30ies in the 20th century. If I was a young scientist, I-d make that field my subject, and do serious research on it. As I-m a middle aged nobody, I just check the diff approaches, pick what works with me, and skip the rest.
Still, his core idea was great, and changed the treatment of psychological disorders forever. I consider the field of body therapy to be at a stage similar to that of psychotherapy in the 20ies, 30ies in the 20th century. If I was a young scientist, I-d make that field my subject, and do serious research on it. As I-m a middle aged nobody, I just check the diff approaches, pick what works with me, and skip the rest.
I was researching Frantzis a couple weeks ago and I looked through some of this books. They look solid but when I watch videos of Frantzis I totally get a psychopathic vibe. That's just my own sense, so see for yourself. Here are a couple vids of Bruce and a couple vids of Lowen. Playing a lil of my guy vs. your guy tbh
Frantzis 1
Frantzis 2
Lowen 1
Lowen 2
Lowen seems to me much warmer, happier, and loving. Clearly even if Frantzis is a total psychopath that doesn't necessarily void the value of his writings. I'd just like to point this out. Pls don't kill me Bruce
Also, with respect to the Dark Night, I agree with you to an extent. I more or less agree with what Bruce said in this interview with the Tao Bums
Comparing Reichian/bioenergetics with hatha yoga, taichi, etc is a huge topic so I'll do my best to summarize my current understanding. Bruce had a chart in one of his books comparing taichi with hatha yoga and I was considering adding a column for Reichian and bioenergetics. I just might do that after making this post.
The emphasis in bioenergetics and neo-Reichian is disinhibiting archaic affect (esp. anger/rage, fear/terror, sadness, and sexual feelings) and restoring motility and feeling in the associated parts of the body. Among the ultimate goals are -- the ability to feel and express the full spectrum of affect, deeper/fuller breathing, feeling of bodily integrity, ability to surrender to the pleasurable sensations and muscular contractions at the climax of loving sex, etc. Bioenergetics and neo-Reichian methods are reasonably well-integrated with Western psychology through Lowen's work and Stephen M. Johnson's work (characterological developmental).
It's likely the case that Taoist methods are more advanced in subtler internal ways as a result of being so historically well-developed. But, I wouldn't recommend dismissing the value of neo-Reichian/bioenergetics. It seems to me that because of the integration with Western psychology and the emphasis on affect, results can be achieved much faster. For example, through simple observation and a few questions a trained bioenergetic therapist could see that someone has a basically schizoid character style. Then, the therapy would focus on bringing out rage and fear, integrating the various parts of the body through expressive movement, improving coordination, and analyzing the typical schizoid defense mechanisms, memories, games, scripts, etc. I'll claim that radical results in that case will be achieved much faster than if that person were to do just taichi or hatha yoga (though doing a combination would be a bonus). This isn't to say that therapists familiar with these techniques are easy to find. Also, afaik Taoist methods don't have ways of working with the jaw and face. Not sure about this though.
I think an overemphasis on balance could serve to prolong underlying psychological issues. Also, there are lessons you can learn from imbalance that are hard to get elsewhere.
I'm definitely not discounting Taoist methods here. In fact, if you've got some good sources to recommend I'm interested :3
Frantzis 1
Frantzis 2
Lowen 1
Lowen 2
Lowen seems to me much warmer, happier, and loving. Clearly even if Frantzis is a total psychopath that doesn't necessarily void the value of his writings. I'd just like to point this out. Pls don't kill me Bruce
Also, with respect to the Dark Night, I agree with you to an extent. I more or less agree with what Bruce said in this interview with the Tao Bums
Is it possible that the Water Method "flattens" the peak and pitstages in the Buddhist path, named "Arising & Passing" and "The Dark Night of the Soul"?
What you can say is maybe. Water methods, because of the way in which they’re done in general, don’t go to radical extremes, and as such, smooth out the peak and valley stages but no method of spirituality can completely flatten these out. Let’s just say that the spiritual manic-depression cycles that people get when they rise so high on inner experiences getting charged up and then go the other way to crash down, all have a dark night of the soul or similar. How this happens is all dependentupon what is inside someone’s internal matrix. As a general proposition Water methods are a smoother ride, but I wouldn’t say that it or anything else can completely flatten the peak and valley stages. The Water method is a smoother ride because of its emphasis on moderation, it tends not to push the system to a breaking point which many Fire methods do.
What you can say is maybe. Water methods, because of the way in which they’re done in general, don’t go to radical extremes, and as such, smooth out the peak and valley stages but no method of spirituality can completely flatten these out. Let’s just say that the spiritual manic-depression cycles that people get when they rise so high on inner experiences getting charged up and then go the other way to crash down, all have a dark night of the soul or similar. How this happens is all dependentupon what is inside someone’s internal matrix. As a general proposition Water methods are a smoother ride, but I wouldn’t say that it or anything else can completely flatten the peak and valley stages. The Water method is a smoother ride because of its emphasis on moderation, it tends not to push the system to a breaking point which many Fire methods do.
Comparing Reichian/bioenergetics with hatha yoga, taichi, etc is a huge topic so I'll do my best to summarize my current understanding. Bruce had a chart in one of his books comparing taichi with hatha yoga and I was considering adding a column for Reichian and bioenergetics. I just might do that after making this post.
The emphasis in bioenergetics and neo-Reichian is disinhibiting archaic affect (esp. anger/rage, fear/terror, sadness, and sexual feelings) and restoring motility and feeling in the associated parts of the body. Among the ultimate goals are -- the ability to feel and express the full spectrum of affect, deeper/fuller breathing, feeling of bodily integrity, ability to surrender to the pleasurable sensations and muscular contractions at the climax of loving sex, etc. Bioenergetics and neo-Reichian methods are reasonably well-integrated with Western psychology through Lowen's work and Stephen M. Johnson's work (characterological developmental).
It's likely the case that Taoist methods are more advanced in subtler internal ways as a result of being so historically well-developed. But, I wouldn't recommend dismissing the value of neo-Reichian/bioenergetics. It seems to me that because of the integration with Western psychology and the emphasis on affect, results can be achieved much faster. For example, through simple observation and a few questions a trained bioenergetic therapist could see that someone has a basically schizoid character style. Then, the therapy would focus on bringing out rage and fear, integrating the various parts of the body through expressive movement, improving coordination, and analyzing the typical schizoid defense mechanisms, memories, games, scripts, etc. I'll claim that radical results in that case will be achieved much faster than if that person were to do just taichi or hatha yoga (though doing a combination would be a bonus). This isn't to say that therapists familiar with these techniques are easy to find. Also, afaik Taoist methods don't have ways of working with the jaw and face. Not sure about this though.
I think an overemphasis on balance could serve to prolong underlying psychological issues. Also, there are lessons you can learn from imbalance that are hard to get elsewhere.
I'm definitely not discounting Taoist methods here. In fact, if you've got some good sources to recommend I'm interested :3
Droll Dedekind:
I was researching Frantzis a couple weeks ago and I looked through some of this books. They look solid but when I watch videos of Frantzis I totally get a psychopathic vibe. That's just my own sense, so see for yourself. Here are a couple vids of Bruce and a couple vids of Lowen. Playing a lil of my guy vs. your guy tbh
I wouldn't go up against Frantzis, he may just decide to rip your kindneys out
Frantzis 1
Frantzis 2
Lowen 1
Lowen 2
Lowen seems to me much warmer, happier, and loving. Clearly even if Frantzis is a total psychopath that doesn't necessarily void the value of his writings. I'd just like to point this out. Pls don't kill me Bruce
Agreed - your guy wins, much more likeable. I didn't get the pycho vibe from Bruce though, just that he seemed not very calm and somewhat arrogant. I understand the idea that spiritual teachers (or artists or politicians or...) can be total whackos and still have something extremely useful to say is a perfectly acceptable pretense (I'm thinking Chogyam Trungpa, Osho and Adi Da now) but for someone that's going to help me dissect my psyche into tiny little lego blocks and help put me all back together again, I prefer someone I can relate with and warm up to - so I'll check out more Lowell. Goenka had that effect on me on my first retreat - he seemed to radiate love and joy and serenity - from the TV!, it was tangible. I've heard he has the opposite effect on some
Couple of notable things from the Lowen vids:
He says that in order to feel your body, one must move. He also says that emotional feelings (sensations) are beyond consciousness. One thing that blew me away about Goenka taught Vipassana practice is that I could finally feel my feelings. My aha moment seemed really retarded later (uh, that's why they're called 'feelings' Einstein). I guess it says more about our disconnected and busy culture that we don't know that in general as a population. All one needs to do is practice some Qi Gong or (even better) do a Goenka retreat, and it's clear that emotional feelings can be made conscious, and one can feel the entire body while perfectly still. That takes training obviously
Also, with respect to the Dark Night, I agree with you to an extent. I more or less agree with what Bruce said in this interview with the Tao Bums
Is it possible that the Water Method "flattens" the peak and pitstages in the Buddhist path, named "Arising & Passing" and "The Dark Night of the Soul"?
What you can say is maybe. Water methods, because of the way in which they’re done in general, don’t go to radical extremes, and as such, smooth out the peak and valley stages but no method of spirituality can completely flatten these out. Let’s just say that the spiritual manic-depression cycles that people get when they rise so high on inner experiences getting charged up and then go the other way to crash down, all have a dark night of the soul or similar. How this happens is all dependentupon what is inside someone’s internal matrix. As a general proposition Water methods are a smoother ride, but I wouldn’t say that it or anything else can completely flatten the peak and valley stages. The Water method is a smoother ride because of its emphasis on moderation, it tends not to push the system to a breaking point which many Fire methods do.
What you can say is maybe. Water methods, because of the way in which they’re done in general, don’t go to radical extremes, and as such, smooth out the peak and valley stages but no method of spirituality can completely flatten these out. Let’s just say that the spiritual manic-depression cycles that people get when they rise so high on inner experiences getting charged up and then go the other way to crash down, all have a dark night of the soul or similar. How this happens is all dependentupon what is inside someone’s internal matrix. As a general proposition Water methods are a smoother ride, but I wouldn’t say that it or anything else can completely flatten the peak and valley stages. The Water method is a smoother ride because of its emphasis on moderation, it tends not to push the system to a breaking point which many Fire methods do.
Very interesting, didn't know he was interviewed by the Bums. I'll modify my idea that the Dark Night and practice related energy imbalances are completely avoidable and decide to call them workable, or modifiable. This is coming from someone that's been dealing with all sorts of weird and wild kundalini symptoms for over seven years, so I need to avoid any of Lowell's practices that involve adding more energy to the system and just work on dissolution of what's coming up automatically on it's own. I tried a little EFT once and it clogged me up even more - body work in general can be bad with someone that's got K squirming through their pathways 24/7 - purification seems to be already happening naturally on auto pilot here
It's likely the case that Taoist methods are more advanced in subtler internal ways as a result of being so historically well-developed. But, I wouldn't recommend dismissing the value of neo-Reichian/bioenergetics. It seems to me that because of the integration with Western psychology and the emphasis on affect, results can be achieved much faster.
No dissing here - I'm intrigued, and I have more reading to do. The claim of faster emotional release is suspect to me though as my current philosophy sees us all as uniques beautiful snowflakes and to each his own. Still, I see more similarities than differences. When asked what one thing he would teach to Americans in order to be healthier, Frantzis said, breathing. Taoist breath work is pretty deep, and I learned on my own experientially on a Goenka retreat that the breath pulls heavy sensations up from the depths, in my case from my heart area
I think an overemphasis on balance could serve to prolong underlying psychological issues. Also, there are lessons you can learn from imbalance that are hard to get elsewhere.
I think this is a profound statement that many MCTBers abide by, and I think it's true
We develop in hell not in heaven I guess. Bummer
I'm definitely not discounting Taoist methods here. In fact, if you've got some good sources to recommend I'm interested :3
Cool - I'm in the beginning of my work that started when Pawel posted a link to Robert Bruce's online book called New Energy Ways about simple energy work practices. Of course not a Taoist, but talk about an 'interesting' dude (I'm practicing Right Speech these days). He's also really into Astral Travel, OBEs, and banishing demonic entities from people's body and homes - a notable method from another of his books involves strewing garlic all around your house to keep meanies you can't see at bay - and don't forget some choice cloves in your socks! That's true. There may be a section on how to craft a functional yet stylish tin foil hat too, not sure, didn't make it past the garlic. Still, his method is powerful, simple, and extremely similar to Goenka-taught Vipassana method
@carrot top: I don't wan't to hijack Droll's thread with a bunch of Goenka v. Qi Gong talk, I addressed some of it here. If you've done Goenka retreats, check out Robert Bruce's online essay above and you can see many similarities for yourself. Granted, Rob Bruce is not a Taoist (he's an Aussie haha) but clearing the pathways in his teaching is very accessible and beyond similar to some Qi Gong teachings. I say it's the same thing as Qi Gong means energy work (in ancient Oriental spiritual talk) and that's exactly what he's concerned with. I'm happy to say more if you PM me or start a new Qi Gong v. Goenka Vipassana thread, could be interesting
Nice comparison. Thanks for continuing to post about your experiments.
I haven't tried any TRE yet, but.. I was recently showing a friend of mine who does regular asanas from hatha yoga some basic bioenergetics/Reichian and it didn't seem that the yoga had removed much of his 'armor' at all. Willis writes
(I wouldn't agree that yoga doesn't affect the work at all). And, iirc, Lowen mentions in some of his books that he's had dancers, athletes, yogis, etc that still have significant 'armor'. These could all be isolated cases from selected populations but it seems plausible to me that many people from the other bodywork traditions still have most of their 'armor'. A large percentage, even. I'd bet on the taichi people to have the least 'armor'.
Hyatt published a collection of essays titled Rebels and Devils: The Psychology of Liberation in which Willis has two essays. I've picked out some quotes I like or find useful.
Good to see him mention object relations. Stephen M. Johnson's work is largely based on object relations mixed with Reichian/bioenergetic insight.
The bolded bit, I believe, is particularly useful. I've been thinking a lot lately about how Reichian/bioenergetics contradicts the "can't judge a book blah blah" cliche. Unfortunately for the romantics among us this phrase needs some serious qualification.
In the Reichian book Willis didn't mention anger as one of the important factors in the work, only courage. I think Willis was writing a bit edgier for Hyatt's audience
(he also mentions Crowley, Regardie, the Golden Dawn, etc).
The latter essay seems a little too sociological and moral for me, so I just included this interesting little argument. I don't think I've encountered one person who got far with Reichian/bioenergetics without feeling strongly about children's rights. I'll spare the reader my theories about why.
I haven't tried any TRE yet, but.. I was recently showing a friend of mine who does regular asanas from hatha yoga some basic bioenergetics/Reichian and it didn't seem that the yoga had removed much of his 'armor' at all. Willis writes
I already mentioned physical exercise and problems possibly associated with that work. As for Yoga, I had a patient some years ago who had trained in Yoga in India and now taught it here. For all this person's competence in Yoga, his or her (to not give out any clues as to gender) body did not show the least effect of the Yoga on any Reichian “armor.” Thus doing Yoga at the same time as this work will neither aid nor hinder the work.
This also applies to Pilattes. I had a Pilattes teacher as a patient, and, moreover, one who was formally trained. For all the training and the daily doing as he or she taught the method to others, again it made no difference in the Reichian “armor.” So Pilattes like Yoga neither helps nor harms this work.
This also applies to Pilattes. I had a Pilattes teacher as a patient, and, moreover, one who was formally trained. For all the training and the daily doing as he or she taught the method to others, again it made no difference in the Reichian “armor.” So Pilattes like Yoga neither helps nor harms this work.
Hyatt published a collection of essays titled Rebels and Devils: The Psychology of Liberation in which Willis has two essays. I've picked out some quotes I like or find useful.
The Black Art of Psychotherapy by Dr. Jack Willis
...
Do you wish to move to a different plane of consciousness? Try hypnosis or alpha wave biofeedback or sodium amital or any number of emotion altering drugs. Do you wish to feel fully? Try Gestalt or psychodrama or Primal. Do you wish to probe the unknown and unknowable? Try Jungian. Do you wish a re-birth? Try Rankian, or rebirthing, or age regression (even to rebirth in former lives). Do you wish to be loved? Try Rogerian. Is death your issue? Existentialist therapy awaits. Or, perhaps you want better sex or mind-body unity? Try Reichian, Bio-energetics, Feldenkrais, Rolfing or Alexander technique. For every passion there is a therapy, and for every therapy there is a passionate following. What to do? What to do? We will return to that, too. There is an answer.
...
No two people are alike. A photograph as art can be duplicated an infinite number of times. Similarly an etching. A bronze can be recast. But people are ever unique and ever changing. The interchange between therapist and student is a ballet. Is there a leader and a follower? There can be; there doesn’t have to be. But one thing of this dance is certain: if the therapist can only dance to his own tune, if he is committed to a school and a technique irrespective of the student, then the ballet will be an awkward and even disastrous performance.
How then does the student choose a teacher? How can you judge your teachers artistic sensibility? I will answer the choice of teacher question here and wait until later to address the question of his artistry. The answer to choosing a teacher is easy, if not obvious. There are two question to ask: (1) what is your objective and (2) what is your time line. Put it this way: if you exercise, do you want a little workout once or twice a week or do you want to really tone your muscles? Do you want to exercise until you loose 10 pounds, or do you want to make it a part of your life? What is your objective and what is your time line? If your objective is limited and/or you want quick answers, then choose a teacher whose method is quick and direct. Rational emotive therapy, hypnosis, cognitive-behavioral or behaviorism are good answers.
If your objective is to increase your happiness quotient, to correct your errors in living, to exorcise the daemons inside you, then choose a teacher who increases your anxiety. If your teacher promises to love you unconditionally, run. If your teacher tells you that he is problem-oriented, run. If your teacher tells you that he will deal with your emotions, but not with your thinking, run. If he says he deals with the here-and-now, not with the past, sprint. If he says he is only a (fill in the school) therapist and that is the only school he believes in, find a new teacher. There is no sense in finding a teacher of French when you are planning a trip to Germany.
But, since nothing in life is easy, if he says he is totally flexible, that he is eclectic, that he uses whatever is appropriate with no commitment to any theory, then make a mad dash. In psychotherapy, the word eclectic is often a synonym “for I don’t know the theory and I don’t know what I am doing, I just do whatever feels right.”
If your objective is long-term personal growth, then choose the teacher whose statements to you make you anxious, unsettled, nervous, unsure. Therein lies an answer.
...
As you may know, Reichian therapy is a body approach to therapy. Therefore, we get a lot of information from the physical appearance, the gestures, the voice tone, the eyes, etc. Here, then, are some tips from the Reichian couch. Your therapist should have forehead creases. They should not be permanent (a furrowed brow), they should become prominent when the eyebrows are raised and, except for the crease, disappear when the eyebrows are lowered. His eyes should be clear, very focused, and they should move easily. There should be a definite nasal-labial line (the line from the corner of the nose to the corner of the mouth). The neck muscles should not be prominent. The voice should be resonant, coming from an open throat rather than a constricted one. If he takes a big breath, both the belly and the chest should move. Of the things I have listed here, the most important is the forehead and the eyes. If his eyes are dull or they do not move easily or his forehead has no crease lines or has permanent creases, quit now. What if you have been making wonderful progress with just this kind of therapist? My suggestion: take a six-month vacation from this therapist and look into some others. The vacation will be good for you anyway and the experience of some visits to other teachers might give you some perspective on his virtues and his failings.
If you have not chosen a therapist, or if you are going to take a vacation, here is my suggestion: There are four good schools of depth therapy: psychodynamic; ego psychology (also called object relations); neo-Freudian; and Reichian. Note that the word is psychodynamic, not psychoanalysis. The foundation is the same, but the technique is very different. Notwithstanding that Jungian is popular among the readers of Falcon Press, I would urge against it. I have yet to see good results emerge from Jungian analysis. Stay as far away as possible from Primal therapy or any variant. Adlerian, in the right hands, is an acceptable alternative; but then go to someone else afterwards to get to the areas that Adlerian can not address. Bio-energetics is not bad except that you walk around angry for years, in the process losing marriages, jobs, and friends. Existentialist therapy can be done well, but it is rare. Most therapists proclaiming themselves as existentialist have not done the study necessary to make good use of the art. Existentialist is not one school; it is a whole bunch with differing degrees of worth. Of all the rest, I would say: Ignore them. They are not depth therapy, and they can not do the job you deserve.
...
Now, finally, to the most important part: YOU! Even a truly good teacher is no good if his student will not study, if his student will not do his homework. If you are not important to your self why should you be important to your therapist? Is it rational to expect that your therapist will work hard for you when you will not work hard for yourself?
Here is a statement that you have probably never heard any therapist make: the two most important qualities that you need to bring to the study are anger and courage. Anger in the form of the demand of yourself, the commitment, that you will not settle for less than you can be. You will not settle for injuring your children because you have not uncovered your own daemons. You will not settle for less productivity, less creativity, less enjoyment of the wonder of life than is possible for you to achieve. That does not mean that your goal is perfection. We leave that realm to the Gods. It does mean that however much you can uncover, understand, and correct is the minimum you will settle for and the devil take the hindmost.
Then there is courage. Daemons are scary creatures. What are your daemons? Are they depression, anxiety, anger, guilt, facing the fact that your parents are not the nice people you want them to be, realizing that you have been living your life for other people and not for yourself, realizing that you are not as important as you want to think you are, realizing that you made a bad choice in a mate, realizing that you have been pretending to enjoy sex? For all your determination to surrender the darkness for the light, you have to have the courage to stay the course, confess the big and the little, accept that you are what you are—not what you want to be, and most of all: the determination to except that the losses of your childhood are permanent losses. That last one is a biggie and it raises another factor.
...
The Virtue of Personal Liberation by Dr. Jack Willis
...
Postulate 1: The existence of choice gives rise to the necessity of a morality.
Corollary 1: The purpose of morality is to facilitate the making of choices.
Postulate 2: Children lack knowledge.
Corollary 2: While time and living will provide some of the knowledge, they need a teacher for other kinds of knowledge.
Postulate 3: Parents are the primary teachers of children.
Corollary 3: The goal of parenting is to provide knowledge to the child to facilitate the making of choices by the child.
Corollary 4: Parenting which limits, inhibits, or impedes the capacity to choose is immoral; parenting that facilitates and encourages choice is moral. QED.
...
Children can be taken advantage of, they can be misused. In the current catch phrase: they can be abused. So can adults. The difference is that children have less capacity for choice in avoiding the abuse. That means that children need to be protected, especially from public school teachers. Children can be used for sexual purposes giving their consent only because they do not realize that their consent can be withheld. They can also be used for work, giving their consent only because they do not realize that their consent can be refused. (We call that “doing your chores” or taking responsibility.) So, the issue is not that children can be abused, the issue is that we approve of some abuse and some we do not. However, in fact, all of it is of a piece, and all of it involves the use by adults of the knowledge that children lack knowledge and the ability to think at an adult level. In short, all of it involves violating the child’s ability to choose.
Beyond all that, however, there is a form of child abuse that is rampant, growing, and especially vicious. It is done by government. Doesn’t requiring a child to be in school violate the very essence of choice? Doesn’t making it a crime for children to engage in sexual activity violate the very essence of choice? Doesn’t making it a crime for a child to run away violate the very essence of choice? “Government, in the last analysis, is an agency of violence.” Violence and choice can not reside in the same moral universe. Children need special protection; government is the wrong protector.
The bolded bit, I believe, is particularly useful. I've been thinking a lot lately about how Reichian/bioenergetics contradicts the "can't judge a book blah blah" cliche. Unfortunately for the romantics among us this phrase needs some serious qualification.
In the Reichian book Willis didn't mention anger as one of the important factors in the work, only courage. I think Willis was writing a bit edgier for Hyatt's audience
(he also mentions Crowley, Regardie, the Golden Dawn, etc).The latter essay seems a little too sociological and moral for me, so I just included this interesting little argument. I don't think I've encountered one person who got far with Reichian/bioenergetics without feeling strongly about children's rights. I'll spare the reader my theories about why.
* Edit: Most importantly ! It seems to me that the trauma / tensions have always "sabotaged" my projects and motivation. It is a kind of resistance that makes it hard to commit to projects, and supports procrastination. It seems to be a long running theme in my life. Since I found Willis book in this thread I magically started to work on my projects on a regular basis. It's AMAZING for that alone. No matter how I feel (there are ups and down even with the R.T. sessions), I have been working regularly on my projects for the past 5 months. No self talk, no motivational / productivity B.S., no struggle. Just got on and worked on my websites when I had 2-3 hour simply because I wanted to, as there were no significant resistances to do so. And that is the key. All my life trying to fight some invisible enemy. All it comes down to is the resistance in the body/mind, caused by traumas which saps all the life out of you, your motivation, and your happiness
Yes, and yes, and yes, and YES.
David:
I can speculate on several mechanisms that cause long term change. For one, tense muscles restrict blood flow and the flow of nervous impulses. Fused muscles literally pinch or cut off nerves. Then this may cause a state where tissues are in a limbo like state where they are alive but not active. I've read that in a somatic psychotherapy book once. So many of us are living with tissues that we have little to no awareness of and are bearly living.
Then there's the subject of neurogenic tremors, put forth by Peter Levine and Dr. Bercelli. It's like a primal reflex that resets the resting tonus of muscles. When living in a state of hyperarousal and anxiety, one's nervous system is not in accords with what is, but is living as if the traumatic past is still present. With the Stretch Therapy work, I can either lay on the ground in the TRE pose or stand in the Bioenergetic pose and let myself naturally tremor without any prep exercises like the TRE's. So there's something to Kit Laughlin's contract-relax technique. One of his protige's took his work in an esoteric direction: physicalalchemy.com.au
This is so interesting. I have chroinic fatigue and ive had a history of chronic pelvic pain. You can imagine the horrible reprecussions of having your entire pelvis/sexual organs numb or in pain. And when I had physical therapy for it theyd always describe my musculatare as extremely tight and stuck.
Coming from Kit Laughlin's and other's work, I hear alot about remapping the body. It's as if the past is alive in the body in the present and all of this body work in the many forms of it, remaps the body on a neurological level so that the self-image/body-image is worked through so that the body sense and emotions are more and more in accords with what is. In that, old things come to light, or what is dissonant from what is, is derepressed as the remapping occurs. That's why I think deep sensing of the body is highly beneficial. Sometimes change doesn't occur until it is in awareness or it is reflected upon.
This would definitely make sense from what ive experienced so far with the reichian stuff. After a few session I was edxtremely relaxed and confident..now Ive gone into anxiety/fear, especially around females lol. I am realizing my whole life Ive had a serious block to opening up to them and have always been extremely guarded. But the anxiety is almost forcing me to interact with them on a different way. Hard to explain i suppose. Ive actually been in contact with someone from the "radical undoing" business who offer this work. They told me all types of reactions can happen he said he had 3 weeks of body anxiety and insomnia while things were "unraveling" as he put it. He said Regardie would tell of people becoming impotent for a time or having digestive problems or insomnia etc etc. This seems to be in line with what your saying here.
Now, emotions are nothing but action tendencies or systems of action, feelings are the subjective correlates of thier activation. Being top down creatures, we have "clamped down" on our emotional experience as our cognitive capacities (defenses) developed. While the hundreds, if not thousands of layers of character armour was relegated to procedural or implicit memory. So many many things arise as we activate the limbic and reptilian systems of action and feeling.
I believe that this is the easiest way to work with subtle energy systems. You work with the body and emotions and deep sensing. I've never been a fan of the esoteric methods that are all about complex visualization and rituals and such. I'd rather just remove the blocks to my normal organismic functioning. The Reichian work does this beautifully.
Sorry, I've been listening to gamma binaural tracks and my mind is pretty wired with abstract ideas.
I also recommend learning The Focusing Method by Eugene Gendlin. It's just as powerful and liberative as any method of meditation.
Wow Gamma waves are intense
I do binaural beats from time to time myself. This was an awesome post I think youre probably onto something with the way these body oriented things work. For me it feels every session brings about some type of "change"..it may not always be anything i could anticipate but its there. I guess its partly why both hyatt and willis emphasize having "courage" or what have you to see it through and to take things slowly for the most part. But I guess it mostly comes down to the individual.
Then there's the subject of neurogenic tremors, put forth by Peter Levine and Dr. Bercelli. It's like a primal reflex that resets the resting tonus of muscles. When living in a state of hyperarousal and anxiety, one's nervous system is not in accords with what is, but is living as if the traumatic past is still present. With the Stretch Therapy work, I can either lay on the ground in the TRE pose or stand in the Bioenergetic pose and let myself naturally tremor without any prep exercises like the TRE's. So there's something to Kit Laughlin's contract-relax technique. One of his protige's took his work in an esoteric direction: physicalalchemy.com.au
This is so interesting. I have chroinic fatigue and ive had a history of chronic pelvic pain. You can imagine the horrible reprecussions of having your entire pelvis/sexual organs numb or in pain. And when I had physical therapy for it theyd always describe my musculatare as extremely tight and stuck.
Coming from Kit Laughlin's and other's work, I hear alot about remapping the body. It's as if the past is alive in the body in the present and all of this body work in the many forms of it, remaps the body on a neurological level so that the self-image/body-image is worked through so that the body sense and emotions are more and more in accords with what is. In that, old things come to light, or what is dissonant from what is, is derepressed as the remapping occurs. That's why I think deep sensing of the body is highly beneficial. Sometimes change doesn't occur until it is in awareness or it is reflected upon.
This would definitely make sense from what ive experienced so far with the reichian stuff. After a few session I was edxtremely relaxed and confident..now Ive gone into anxiety/fear, especially around females lol. I am realizing my whole life Ive had a serious block to opening up to them and have always been extremely guarded. But the anxiety is almost forcing me to interact with them on a different way. Hard to explain i suppose. Ive actually been in contact with someone from the "radical undoing" business who offer this work. They told me all types of reactions can happen he said he had 3 weeks of body anxiety and insomnia while things were "unraveling" as he put it. He said Regardie would tell of people becoming impotent for a time or having digestive problems or insomnia etc etc. This seems to be in line with what your saying here.
Now, emotions are nothing but action tendencies or systems of action, feelings are the subjective correlates of thier activation. Being top down creatures, we have "clamped down" on our emotional experience as our cognitive capacities (defenses) developed. While the hundreds, if not thousands of layers of character armour was relegated to procedural or implicit memory. So many many things arise as we activate the limbic and reptilian systems of action and feeling.
I believe that this is the easiest way to work with subtle energy systems. You work with the body and emotions and deep sensing. I've never been a fan of the esoteric methods that are all about complex visualization and rituals and such. I'd rather just remove the blocks to my normal organismic functioning. The Reichian work does this beautifully.
Sorry, I've been listening to gamma binaural tracks and my mind is pretty wired with abstract ideas.
I also recommend learning The Focusing Method by Eugene Gendlin. It's just as powerful and liberative as any method of meditation.
Wow Gamma waves are intense
I do binaural beats from time to time myself. This was an awesome post I think youre probably onto something with the way these body oriented things work. For me it feels every session brings about some type of "change"..it may not always be anything i could anticipate but its there. I guess its partly why both hyatt and willis emphasize having "courage" or what have you to see it through and to take things slowly for the most part. But I guess it mostly comes down to the individual.
I'm seeing both a "talk therapist" and a massage-based therapist. Massage therapy is great, I think she is using a little bit of energy (reiki?), pressure points and standard massage (the website for the method is in french, literally "associates physical and energetic touch to verbal psychotheraoy tools".. we basically talk a bit, and sometimes during massage if something comes up).
Last week was the biggest opening yet. I'm really stuck in the diaphragm area. Day after massage I became aware of this vital energy coming from the belly area whenever I had a angry or sexual thought. It was very encouraging because it seemed as if anger could bt let go of immediately when it was felt as a raw energy? It was almost pleasurable to feel the anger I know this area is opening along with the breathing because my eyes start twitching a lot.
Talk therapy has been very helpful for me, though I do wonder sometimes how long I should continue, and whether a different kind of therapy would be helpful alongside the massage approach.
I think it really comes down to the individual's desire to wake up, and to change. I can see talk therapy doing nothing, or very little beyond the temporary relief after a session... if the individual is not very motivated or continues to dumb down their consciousness with booze, porn, and so on. Quite a few times, I was doing Byron Katie exercises at home, and watching her video, and it brought about significant release. Then I brought that up in talk therapy, so it kind of drove the point home, or gave me another angle. I think it was potent in that way, but certainly if an individual comes to talk therapy and expect everything to happen there... I could see them going there for years with little permanent change.
Talk therapy was very useful for me I think because I had to have another perspective on the kind of childhood I had. The most healing was probably to understand abuse, as abuse..I internalized so much of the way I was treated, I didn't even see it as abuse. So I went through life belieiving in all the self-development crap that is 95% of the "self development" blog circlejerk on the internet. Believe in yourself, build confidence and all that crap. Completely pointless. In my experience at least, depression and anxiety is caused by anger turned inwards. Or to draw a parrallel to the massage opening I described above, the vital energy is suppressed and turned inwards causing anxiety and potentially depression.
One of the most telling experiences was one day I was angry at my father and left a bunch of messages. And the funny thing is he never even listened to them. But for three days afterwards I felt completely relaxed, all anxiety was gone. That confirmed the insight that indeed, allowing the anger to come out instead of being repressed is key. But the experience some days ago also showed me that perhaps it's not necessary at all to externalize anger dramatically like in some of the bioenergetics exercises. That it's not about kicking the legs, or punching the pillow, it's about becoming aware of the vital energy.
This has implications with the bioenergetics exercises. Unfortunately in my experience, the bio exercises were too strong, or too direct somehow, and made me feel more tense even though in theory they should have given me relief. I'm still curious whether there is a way to just keep an opening going, and basically how do you
My experiences basically confirm much of the bioenergetics reading I've done and mentioned in this thread (Willis, Lowen...), EXCEPT that I can somehow not come to awareness of the suppressed energy by myself. It had to be Reiki, or the massage therapist, or perhaps more indirectly the resolving of the story / reality filters through talk therapy which over time reduce this tension.
Part of this puzzle likely is the presence of another empathetic person as you mentioned earlier. And when you see it like that you realize that perhaps there really isn't any one therapy that works best, and that the connection with the therapist is half of the formula.
Another concept is the notion of learning to tolerate increased energy which I've seen mentioned in Stephen Johnson 's book. Perhaps that is supposed to be the focus of Lowen and Willis' exercises. But is there such a thing or is that just another way of saying "undoing the suppression"? In which case I'm back to the same observation, that I can't do this on my own.
...
Still I don't know regarding talk therapy. I'm at the point where I've talked enough about my early life.. and perhaps something more "experiential" would be useful. But you just mentioned so many therapies where do I even begin? And what would be the main difference between experiential and talk therapy?
One thing I am wary of is the desire to change something. Whenever I tried to forcefully "open" the body, it doesn't work. Even as I put my attention on some area of the body where there is tension, it usually doesn't work. What works is when empathy is directed at myself. If I thought about myself as a child, then I would empathy like it was my own child, and something would come up. I would feel a wave of tingling in the body signaling a temporary relief in the holding in the musculature, or I would start tearing up.
So that makes me wary of "experiential" approaches, if that means trying to physically alter the body the same way bioenergetics does. As far as my experience goes, the bioenergetics exercises are more of a "build up" or maintenance approach, for an individual who has no significant blocks; When energy is significantly suppressed, then it creates additional tension, it's very hard to release and open up. The aspect of the psyche that suppresses energy needs ot come to awareness, which is the work of psychotherapy or other approaches that I believe need to incorporate some kind of talk.
But then again you seem to suggest that you've found approaches that bring about awareness of these blocks in a non verbal way?
...
Sorry if my post is all over the place. I'm just sharing some insights / experiences. If I seem to have no definite question or answers, it's because if I could summarize my therapy journey so far, is that I feel it is really out of my control. I can't speed it up. I can't forcefully "open" anything. I can't bring up something to awareness directly. I can't "feel" the vital energy as much as I try, unless it happens somehow. And in fact in massage therapy at one point I started homing in on that sense of unease, and state of fear in the body, and I told her how I felt I needed to let go of what I should say, should not say, how I should feel even. The key for me seems to be to relax, and to stop trying to control.
Last week was the biggest opening yet. I'm really stuck in the diaphragm area. Day after massage I became aware of this vital energy coming from the belly area whenever I had a angry or sexual thought. It was very encouraging because it seemed as if anger could bt let go of immediately when it was felt as a raw energy? It was almost pleasurable to feel the anger
I know this area is opening along with the breathing because my eyes start twitching a lot.Talk therapy has been very helpful for me, though I do wonder sometimes how long I should continue, and whether a different kind of therapy would be helpful alongside the massage approach.
I think it really comes down to the individual's desire to wake up, and to change. I can see talk therapy doing nothing, or very little beyond the temporary relief after a session... if the individual is not very motivated or continues to dumb down their consciousness with booze, porn, and so on. Quite a few times, I was doing Byron Katie exercises at home, and watching her video, and it brought about significant release. Then I brought that up in talk therapy, so it kind of drove the point home, or gave me another angle. I think it was potent in that way, but certainly if an individual comes to talk therapy and expect everything to happen there... I could see them going there for years with little permanent change.
Talk therapy was very useful for me I think because I had to have another perspective on the kind of childhood I had. The most healing was probably to understand abuse, as abuse..I internalized so much of the way I was treated, I didn't even see it as abuse. So I went through life belieiving in all the self-development crap that is 95% of the "self development" blog circlejerk on the internet. Believe in yourself, build confidence and all that crap. Completely pointless. In my experience at least, depression and anxiety is caused by anger turned inwards. Or to draw a parrallel to the massage opening I described above, the vital energy is suppressed and turned inwards causing anxiety and potentially depression.
One of the most telling experiences was one day I was angry at my father and left a bunch of messages. And the funny thing is he never even listened to them. But for three days afterwards I felt completely relaxed, all anxiety was gone. That confirmed the insight that indeed, allowing the anger to come out instead of being repressed is key. But the experience some days ago also showed me that perhaps it's not necessary at all to externalize anger dramatically like in some of the bioenergetics exercises. That it's not about kicking the legs, or punching the pillow, it's about becoming aware of the vital energy.
This has implications with the bioenergetics exercises. Unfortunately in my experience, the bio exercises were too strong, or too direct somehow, and made me feel more tense even though in theory they should have given me relief. I'm still curious whether there is a way to just keep an opening going, and basically how do you
My experiences basically confirm much of the bioenergetics reading I've done and mentioned in this thread (Willis, Lowen...), EXCEPT that I can somehow not come to awareness of the suppressed energy by myself. It had to be Reiki, or the massage therapist, or perhaps more indirectly the resolving of the story / reality filters through talk therapy which over time reduce this tension.
Part of this puzzle likely is the presence of another empathetic person as you mentioned earlier. And when you see it like that you realize that perhaps there really isn't any one therapy that works best, and that the connection with the therapist is half of the formula.
Another concept is the notion of learning to tolerate increased energy which I've seen mentioned in Stephen Johnson 's book. Perhaps that is supposed to be the focus of Lowen and Willis' exercises. But is there such a thing or is that just another way of saying "undoing the suppression"? In which case I'm back to the same observation, that I can't do this on my own.
...
Still I don't know regarding talk therapy. I'm at the point where I've talked enough about my early life.. and perhaps something more "experiential" would be useful. But you just mentioned so many therapies where do I even begin? And what would be the main difference between experiential and talk therapy?
One thing I am wary of is the desire to change something. Whenever I tried to forcefully "open" the body, it doesn't work. Even as I put my attention on some area of the body where there is tension, it usually doesn't work. What works is when empathy is directed at myself. If I thought about myself as a child, then I would empathy like it was my own child, and something would come up. I would feel a wave of tingling in the body signaling a temporary relief in the holding in the musculature, or I would start tearing up.
So that makes me wary of "experiential" approaches, if that means trying to physically alter the body the same way bioenergetics does. As far as my experience goes, the bioenergetics exercises are more of a "build up" or maintenance approach, for an individual who has no significant blocks; When energy is significantly suppressed, then it creates additional tension, it's very hard to release and open up. The aspect of the psyche that suppresses energy needs ot come to awareness, which is the work of psychotherapy or other approaches that I believe need to incorporate some kind of talk.
But then again you seem to suggest that you've found approaches that bring about awareness of these blocks in a non verbal way?
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Sorry if my post is all over the place. I'm just sharing some insights / experiences. If I seem to have no definite question or answers, it's because if I could summarize my therapy journey so far, is that I feel it is really out of my control. I can't speed it up. I can't forcefully "open" anything. I can't bring up something to awareness directly. I can't "feel" the vital energy as much as I try, unless it happens somehow. And in fact in massage therapy at one point I started homing in on that sense of unease, and state of fear in the body, and I told her how I felt I needed to let go of what I should say, should not say, how I should feel even. The key for me seems to be to relax, and to stop trying to control.
faB:
@Dominik J
Do you know if / how it differs from "focusing", and "somatic experiencing" approaches?
I feel like they are all describing the same process of turning attention to the sensations, much like what we do in Goenka retreats. But with the addition of using words and images as sign posts to try and unravel threads of unconscious material / trauma.
Do you know if / how it differs from "focusing", and "somatic experiencing" approaches?
I feel like they are all describing the same process of turning attention to the sensations, much like what we do in Goenka retreats. But with the addition of using words and images as sign posts to try and unravel threads of unconscious material / trauma.
The Prendergast methodology is certainly very related to "focussing" and actually makes explicit reference to the process that Eugene Gendlin lays out. I'd say the addition to focussing is, that it a) embeds the process in a spiritual context (mainly the non-dual/advaita school) and b) also focusses it on developing one's intuition/self guidance capacity. The book is surprisingly upfront and uncompromising about the spiritual nature of therapy. I had the impression, that seeing the method with this background makes it more powerful and gives a better understanding on how the process works and what to concentrate on.
Concerning Somatic Experiencing, I dont have a lot of experience with that. I'd assume however that it is really similar and a friend of mine speaks very highly of it
Hope that is of help
I haven't observed how my throat looks during the gagging exercise and I don't know much about anatomy, but maybe we're making this more complicated than it needs to be. IIRC, Willis doesn't mention how the throat should look or feel, only how it should sound: "There should be no sound with the gag or rather the only allowed sound is a soft "uh" that may occur with the gag." (p56 of the first New Falcon Edition 2013).
So, with all love I say to you: RTFM!, the rest of it anyway, and only after that worry some more
So, with all love I say to you: RTFM!, the rest of it anyway, and only after that worry some more
Sakari:
I haven't observed how my throat looks during the gagging exercise and I don't know much about anatomy, but maybe we're making this more complicated than it needs to be. IIRC, Willis doesn't mention how the throat should look or feel, only how it should sound: "There should be no sound with the gag or rather the only allowed sound is a soft "uh" that may occur with the gag." (p56 of the first New Falcon Edition 2013).
So, with all love I say to you: RTFM!, the rest of it anyway, and only after that worry some more
So, with all love I say to you: RTFM!, the rest of it anyway, and only after that worry some more
