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Daniel M. Ingram, Saturday, January 23, 2021

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Dear All, The remarkable Manish is about to backup and upgrade Liferay to Liferay 7. This is the fundamental platform on which the DhO runs. As such, anything posted from about now (January 23, Saturday, at around noon Central Time) will likely be lost until the upgrade is complete. Thus, stop posting anything you wish to last now until this is done! Thanks! -Daniel, Owner of the DhO

 

 

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RE: "Nada" sound

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Wet Paint, modified 12 Years ago.

"Nada" sound

Posts: 1028 Join Date: 4/28/09 Recent Posts
Forum: Practical Dharma

Does anyone here have experience or opinions about the "nada", that high-pitched tv-tube-like sound?

It's not distracting, but I can focus on it easily. I usually watch the breath as my meditation object, but sometimes, I try to be aware of the breath and the sound simultaneously, which I find interesting, because the breath has a low frequency and the sound a high one.

Cheers,
Florian
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Wet Paint, modified 12 Years ago.

RE: "Nada" sound

Posts: 3155 Join Date: 4/20/09 Recent Posts
If you mean the various sounds you hear that are not made by anything but seem to just come from your ears, yes, definitely.

These can be an interesting object for both concentration and insight meditation, depending on which aspect one looks at (There Characteristics vs. stability). There is actually a monk I heard of who teaches these sounds as primary object.

One can break them down into all sorts of different aspects, different tones/harmonics (higher, lower, etc.), different pulses of those tones, different spacial placements, and the like, and they are as good an object as any other, demonstrating ultimate aspects like all other sensations. If you really investigate the breath, you will find high frequencies also...
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Dream Walker, modified 3 Years ago.

RE: "Nada" sound

Posts: 1311 Join Date: 1/18/12 Recent Posts
Daniel M. Ingram:
One can break them down into all sorts of different aspects,

different tones/harmonics (higher, lower, etc.),
different pulses of those tones,
different spacial placements,
and the like,
and they are as good an object as any other,
demonstrating ultimate aspects like all other sensations.

If you really investigate the breath, you will find high frequencies also...
Ok,
 lots of chat here but little direct experience of telling what has been learned from exploring the nada sound.
If anyone has actually explored some of the characteristics that Daniel  mentions above, please speak from your direct experience and tell us what is what.

I've listened to the nada sound over the years and find it facinating that the ability to focus in on different tones has increased. I tend to work up to the highest tones I can hear as an exersize for fun. Has anyone found an actual use for the nada sound outside of it being just another sensation to explore? Is it a tuning fork for focusing in to something? If so What?
Thanks,
~D
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John, modified 3 Years ago.

RE: "Nada" sound

Posts: 5 Join Date: 6/7/17 Recent Posts
I've been using the sound as my main object for a couple months now. And I just got off a week long retreat where I used the sound. I actually wore earmuffs to block out all external noise during most of my sits. 

First thing is that the sound gets really loud. By the end of the retreat it got to the point where it felt like putting the earmuffs on was much nosier than taking them off. I like this effect because it makes concentration pretty easy. An analogy I kept thinking of was like cutting logs with a fresh chain on your chain saw. Once the blade enters the wood it kind of gets "sucked" into the log and there is little effort needed to finish the cut. During good practice sessions I found this was the case with the nada. 

I found that the time of day made a lot of difference in how pleasing the sound was. During the day I felt like the sound conglomerated into a ball and was very hard to split up into separate tones. This left me with no option but to listen to the lowest common denominator of sound, which was usually unpleasant and occasionally hellish. In contrast during the nighttime and early mornings the sound was usually very nice to me. As proscribed in Michael Edward Salim's "Law of Attention", the sound climbs the ladder of tonality getting higher in pitch and faster in vibration. When the sound was cooporating it was very easy to choose any number of tones to listen to. From here one can choose to stay with one tone and see what that has to offer. Usually what will happen is a new and higher tone will seemingly "pop" out of the previous tone and then one can choose to listen to the new tone and try and stablize it. This is mostly what I did. 

Things I wonder about: 

- At certain points I litterally had 6 or 7 different tones to choose from. Edward Michael Salim recommends the subtler and higher pitched tones to draw the meditator to higher heights within himself. I found this to be the case but also ran into some struggles. In particular once your up at a certain height, it can be difficult to balance a tone because these tones are subtle and juggling them requires really solid concentration. Furthermore once your at these heights the sounds tend to jump around more easily than the lower tones. This made them tough to really investigate in terms of vibrational speed. One thing I look to improve upon is stablazing concentration on these higher pitches. 

I'll leave this here for now and hopefully unpack some more tomorrow. 
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John, modified 3 Years ago.

RE: "Nada" sound

Posts: 5 Join Date: 6/7/17 Recent Posts
Moving further with the sound... 

In Edward Michael Salim's "Law of Attention" he advises the meditator to be aware of where the sound brings your attention in the body. This I find to be of particular interest. First, it's relatively challenging to do this because so often we associate hearing with the ear. So when I listen to the sound I will instinctively use the ear. With the silence the case may be that the sound, although perceived mainly through the ear is actually emanating from other points of the body. 

For instance I have a lot of stress in my right hand through my right shoulder and up through my jaw. When I listen to the sound some tones will lead me to the vibration in my hand and other sounds will like me to the vibrations in my shoulder. I've found that if I really investigate this relationship then I am more able to listen to the sound while "being" my hand or shoulder. To put this another way, it's quite difficult to go back and forth between listening through the ear while paying attention to its effect on the corresponding body part. With good practice I found this difficulty lessens and the two become more or less one. 

This potentially has some interesting conclusions. First is that the sound could be seen as healing agent. I say this because if it is true that the sound corresponds with particular body parts, as you investigate the vibrations of the sound and they begin to break apart, so to will the vibrations in the body break apart. Second is that this is useful for vipassana because the sound is extremely stable and easy to investigate. Therefore if we investigate the sound we are at the same time investigating stress in the body. And as it goes, the subtler and faster the vibrations, the more stress we're able to burn up. 

In some ways this is why I feel like the nada is touted so highly in a lot of ancient texts/mystics. It appears that at it's finest, the nada's very essence is to hunt for dukkha and all the meditator has to do is ride the wave. We could take this further and begin to go along the lines of the nada being a manifestion of OM and/or light itself. 
Wet Paint, modified 12 Years ago.

RE: "Nada" sound

Posts: 20 Join Date: 9/8/09 Recent Posts
Good to know that I am not the only one that hear this sound. I thought it was some sort of meditation tinnitus and I have been trying to avoid it....

I will explore it as a secondary object of meditation.
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Wet Paint, modified 12 Years ago.

RE: "Nada" sound

Posts: 22924 Join Date: 8/6/09 Recent Posts
Author: amaranatho

Hi there,

have a look at Ajahn Sumedho book sound of silence, he has been using it for years.

Hope that helps
Amaranatho
Wet Paint, modified 12 Years ago.

RE: "Nada" sound

Posts: 20 Join Date: 9/8/09 Recent Posts
Great! Thanks for the hint. I found the preview of the book in google under:

http://books.google.de/books?id=TqKbrmljVdwC&printsec=frontcover&hl=en
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Wet Paint, modified 12 Years ago.

RE: "Nada" sound

Posts: 22924 Join Date: 8/6/09 Recent Posts
Author: pratyekabuddha

I don't do religion, so I don't know the word "nada," however there may be a base pseudo-frequency in relation to the human brain which we "hear."
{quote}
Coherent gamma frequency oscillations (collectively known as "coherent 40 Hz") are suggested to mediate temporal binding of conscious experience and to act as the neural correlate of consciousness.
{/quote}
Gamma oscillations in the 30- to 70-Hz range and upward are often mentioned in current discussions of the possible involvement of quantum "computations" in the manifesting of consciousness. {search http://arxiv.org for 'consciousness'}.
I mention this because years ago I followed "tones" "down," in effect slower and slower. The poetic way of saying this may be one hand clapping -- or the space between moments -- wherein I experienced each moment. Of course each moment reveals the universe as not there at all! One experiences the *next* moment! *laughing*here*.

Oh shoot I shouldn't have said that about one hand clapping! There is an actual sound of one hand clapping -- laughter. It's one of the funniest things in the world. I wish I could find it but so far I haven't -- there is a picture of two monks falling over laughing pointing at a little leaf flying in the wind.

Love you all .....
Michael
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Wet Paint, modified 12 Years ago.

RE: "Nada" sound

Posts: 1028 Join Date: 4/28/09 Recent Posts
No, the sound is subjectively much more highly-pitched than 30-70Hz. That would be a low drone, similar to the hum on a badly-connected stereo.

But thanks for your reply.

Cheers,
Florian
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Wet Paint, modified 12 Years ago.

RE: "Nada" sound

Posts: 22924 Join Date: 8/6/09 Recent Posts
Author: pratyekabuddha


Hi Florian,

Of course I have no idea if this answers what you were asking about, but my other connection with sound is listening to this guy

http://www.paullowe.org

toning. That is, he tones with his voice. It's truly remarkable. I have a CD I could send you mwalsh7782@yahoo.com
For me, listening is an invitation to my presence to go there so to speak. But that may not be your interest.
Wet Paint, modified 12 Years ago.

RE: "Nada" sound

Posts: 0 Join Date: 8/24/09 Recent Posts
Hey,

Ajahn Sumedho and Ajahn Amaro (of Ahajn Chah lineage) teache to utilize this what they call the "sound of silence" as an object of meditation. It is so loud for me sometimes that it virtually begs to be focused on instead of the breath. I have looked for teachers around me (Philly) who teach this method, but they are hard to find. I even visited Abhayagiri Monastery, but Ajahn Amaro was not around.

If you listen for it, it never goes away, always present so Ajahn Sumedho claims it is a great object to focus on to realize the deathless.

Excerpt:
"And in order to do that one learns to sit still and listen to the silence. Not that this is going to make you enlightened, but it's going against the momentum of habit; against restless energies of the body and emotions. So you listen to the silence. You can hear my voice; you can hear the sounds of things that happen, but behind all that is a kind of high-pitch, almost electronic buzz. That's what I call 'the sound of silence.' I find that a very helpful way of concentrating the mind because when one begins to notice that - without regarding it as any kind of attainment or achievement - it becomes a convenient method for contemplation, in order to hear yourself think."
-- From a Sunday talk at Amaravati, given by Luang Por Sumedho, summer 1994. \
http://www.forestsangha.org/sumedho18.htm

It was helpful for sometime in my practice but then for lack of teachers I decided to go back to the breath. Hope this helps.

- A
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Wet Paint, modified 12 Years ago.

RE: "Nada" sound

Posts: 1028 Join Date: 4/28/09 Recent Posts
Everybody who replied: Thanks!

I haven't used it as a primary object, but find it very useful to "muffle" (keep at a distance, not get involved with) thoughts and memories as they arise and pass when I do concentration practice: as I focus on the breath sensation, a thought rises "through" the sound, does its thing, then sinks back into the sound, similar to Ven. Sumedho's description which AndruP quoted.

For insight practice, I haven't used it at all yet.

Maybe I should get the book - but I feel that I've read enough books for now, and want to find out for myself.

Those who have read it, maybe they could do a review on the "books" section?

Cheers,
Florian
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Wet Paint, modified 12 Years ago.

RE: "Nada" sound

Posts: 22924 Join Date: 8/6/09 Recent Posts
Author: amaranatho

HI,

My understanding of using the sound of silence. Is it allows one to embrace rather then deflect objects. try to notice how you feel when you hear the sound, the quality of attention, body, mind. In my experience you can only hear the sound when you are open and relaxed, receptive. That does not mean liking or disliking, but an attitude of welcoming everything.

So rather than muffling or trying to remove suffering we get to understand what it is, how it operates. So notice how thought objects/mind objects. you sense of self arise form the ground of the sound of silence. And ask yourself which is more peaceful the arises and ceasing of objects or the sound of silence?

You can then use the sound of silence for both samatha (that is concentration) and insight and in my experience there is no difference between the two. One pointed concentration is one point - that is undivided. So again notice the quality of the sound of silence - is it divided - who divides between sound of silence and objects.

Basically in the book, Ajahn Sumedho ask you to reflect, investigate what experience is, how it arise and passes by welcoming everything. This is an attitude one takes towards meditation, it is not a technique or method. If helpful can write more.
Hope that helps
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Wet Paint, modified 12 Years ago.

RE: "Nada" sound

Posts: 22924 Join Date: 8/6/09 Recent Posts
Author: sonamdolma

My response has been eaten by the infinite.

OK, another try....

amarantho - yes, please. This is helpful and very interesting to me and I would like to hear more.
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Wet Paint, modified 12 Years ago.

RE: "Nada" sound

Posts: 22924 Join Date: 8/6/09 Recent Posts
Author: amaranatho

So your response has been eaten by the infinite - this is just like the sound of silence - it eats everything. So just give it a try its very simple - just stay open in relaxed and receptive way and sort of listen, and if all goes well and you dont struggle or try to create the sound... you will hear the sound.

Then explore the sound like a young child, how big is it, where is it located, where does it stop, does it complain, make judgments, criticize. does it say your the greatest, praise you. Be like a wandering detective...

This is a very simple and very direct way to what Ajahn Sumedho calls the way it is. What condition experience is. Because of this - that happens and then using the sound of silence we get perspective on the whole process and then its very simple you choice - suffer or not suffer - up to you...

what about that...
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Wet Paint, modified 12 Years ago.

RE: "Nada" sound

Posts: 1028 Join Date: 4/28/09 Recent Posts
Amaranatho,

Regarding meditation technique and method, I practice according to (my understanding of) the anapanasati sutta (MN 118).

Regarding the "muffling" - here's what I tried to express:

For the first tetrad - mindfulness of the body - the sound helps me because it is "louder" than other mental phenomena like thoughts and memories, so I "enter" them (open them up, get lost in their content) less frequently, and can notice them ("welcome" them) for what they are, instead of what they are about.

For the second tetrad, the sound is a great support for mainaining the "rapture" feeling in the early steps: I can let the sudden urges to intervene just dissipate in the sound instead of directing them at the feeling. I'm still a bit shaky on this one.

I guess for the third and fourth tetrad, the sound as a mental phenomenon might become an object of focus in its own right, but I'm definitely not there yet.

What I like about the anapanasati sutta is the "integrated" development of concentration and insight. The steps can be followed in order to solidify a state for concentration, or to analyse a state for insight. It took me a while to come to this conclusion, but it seems very obvious now. I find it useful to distinguish between the two types of exercise. One metaphor I like is training two different muscle groups - they have different functions, but can be trained in the same gym.

Thanks for your comments, they have been very helpful.

Cheers,
Florian
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Wet Paint, modified 12 Years ago.

RE: "Nada" sound

Posts: 22924 Join Date: 8/6/09 Recent Posts
Author: amaranatho

HI Florian,

whatever works for you is fine and also notice what we create on top of the the uncreated. Investigate what or who creates the sound. One of the problems with sutta and (I'm not saying that you are doing this), is that they are static representation of a dynamic process. That is they are after the event. So sutta can only be used after the event to recognize what we may have gone through. They are not things to attain to really.

The Buddha teaching are always on two levels the mundane and the supermundane and so on the mundane level we can develop good qualities, as for the supermundane that is different, its recognition.

So the point of the buddha teaching in my understanding is to be aware of two different muscles, the gym, the exercising, the body, the training, the whole lot . Once we aware of what we are doing then we can let the world be the world.

So with 3rd and 4th tetrad try just sitting with the sound and watch the mental objects - the mind talk, the body- arise and cease. Your mind does not need to be quiet, you don't need rapture, or bliss. 3rd and 4th are much more subtle than 1st and 2nd and for westerners this is more important to discern because we are so caught up with our minds.

be well
amaranatho
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Wet Paint, modified 12 Years ago.

RE: "Nada" sound

Posts: 1028 Join Date: 4/28/09 Recent Posts
When pursuing goals, it's important to have a useful, skillful goal. A goal that is only in the future can never be met, even if that goal comes from reading a sutta - is that what you're warning against? My goal for meditation is to concentrate on the breath as it occurs - and in this concentration I either assemble a state or take it apart, to find out what that is like. Studying the anapanasati sutta, I recognize stuff I have experienced, and find hints on what to look for, ideas to try next time, etc.

Reading the sutta also gives me great confidence when I notice, "oh, doing this really leads to that - I recognize that, it's happened to me, too! Wow! This stuff is about real phenomena!"

Thanks for your help.

Cheers,
Florian
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Wet Paint, modified 12 Years ago.

RE: "Nada" sound

Posts: 22924 Join Date: 8/6/09 Recent Posts
Author: amaranatho

Hi florian,

One of the problems of this type of interaction is the limitation of language. I actually warning against having goals or attainments. Another of the Buddha teaching is using the four noble truths - that is there is suffering, the cause of suffering, and there is a cessation of suffering. What cause suffering is when we try to attain something. Its about the relationship of the condition world to the unconditioned.

Its great that you can see that some of your insights you recognize from the sutta - we feel happy and confident. Then its starts not to work and then we can think the teaching dont work. So its great that you faith in the teachings and what the Buddha was pointing to was the realization of the unconditioned, freeing the heart... and this is a recognition not an attainment.

In the western world we are brought up to attain to get something, to discriminate, one is better than the other and so on. So we can turn this discrimination into understanding how our minds work and thus freeing ourselves, which is based on wisdom not education...

The tradition I come from is that whatever we say is for reflection, its not dogma or doctrine. Just see how this feels, its not important so much on what I say, or whether you believe me...
Amaranatho
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Wet Paint, modified 12 Years ago.

RE: "Nada" sound

Posts: 1028 Join Date: 4/28/09 Recent Posts
Amaranatho,

Thanks for offering your thoughts for reflection. I appreciate the approach of your tradition. So, aware of the limitations of web-based discussions, here's my reply:

I understand your warning against having goals or pursuing attainments as a warning against one more goody to consume, one more ideal to become.

You allude to the second noble truth: "The origin of suffering, as a noble truth, is this: It is the craving that produces renewal of being accompanied by enjoyment and lust, and enjoying this and that; in other words, craving for sensual desires, craving for being, craving for non-being." (from Venerable Ñanamoli Thera's translation of the Dhammacakkappavattana Sutta).

I notice you left out the fourth noble truth: the development of sila, samadhi, and panna: the noble eightfold path.

In the mundane language of goals and attainments, this path leads to "realization of the unconditioned" (if I may quote you slightly out of context) by the development of skillful, wholesome qualities.

Language pointing to the supramundane: recognition, acknowledgement, mindfulness, awareness, letting go, welcoming, right view, viewing things in terms of the four noble truths.

What I got out of your thoughts for reflection:

"I meditate so I will become enlightened"

"I meditate, watching me want to become enlightened"

Thanks!

Cheers,
Florian
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Wet Paint, modified 12 Years ago.

RE: "Nada" sound

Posts: 22924 Join Date: 8/6/09 Recent Posts
Author: amaranatho

HI Florian,

great... so what is aware of the thought "I meditate, watching me want to become enlightened"

:-)
amaranatho
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Wet Paint, modified 12 Years ago.

RE: "Nada" sound

Posts: 22924 Join Date: 8/6/09 Recent Posts
Author: MagicianOfChange

But I sometimes hear low frequency tones as well. Epically when I yawn for some reason. I noticed it most prominently after I received a csft healing. (http://www.healtouch.com/csft/index.html) They told me it had sometime to do with vibrational modes of my spinal fluid. I don't really have any experience with csft so I don't really know what to make of that.
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Wet Paint, modified 11 Years ago.

RE: "Nada" sound

Post: 1 Join Date: 8/11/09 Recent Posts
The sounds as I hear them are like in the 1-10 kHz regime, or even higher.
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Wet Paint, modified 11 Years ago.

RE: "Nada" sound

Post: 1 Join Date: 8/11/09 Recent Posts
It's very good for me to find that I'm not the only one that hears these sounds. The sounds have been with me incessantly for as long as I can remember, and I've been trying in vain for the past 45 years, or so, to convey the experience of this phenomenon to family and friends, to no avail. Nobody seems to know what I'm talking about. For at least a couple of decades I'd accepted that it was probably tinnitus, and it was not until I read MCTB that it dawned to me that it could be something else, and earlier today Florian gave me a pointer to this thread on DhO.

It is not quite true that the sounds have been there incessantly. Firstly, I cannot remember them from any dreams I've had — not even lucid ones — and secondly, they stopped [at my request] for 5 or 10 seconds back in around 1990. I haven't been able to reproduce it ever since.

The sounds are probably in the 1-10 kHz regime, and are “visible” in my hearing field throughout all my waking hours, even in a noisy environment. Except for the 5-10 seconds mentioned above I have been unable to not finding the sounds, ever.

Sometime within the past 20 years I have become aware of a new component of the sounds, though. It sounds like a faint rumbling bass as from traffic noise from afar. For great many years I actually considered moving from my current address because I thought that the rumbling sounds (and associated physical sensations) indeed were traffic noise. It was not until I heard the sounds while being on a retreat in Sweden, miles away from civilisation in a snow covered landscape, that I had to admit that the bass rumbling isn't — and probably never have been — traffic noise.
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Wet Paint, modified 11 Years ago.

RE: "Nada" sound

Posts: 1028 Join Date: 4/28/09 Recent Posts
Hi Klaus,

This is an old thread; meanwhile, I have made the sound my primary insight meditation object. I continue to use the breath for concentration practice.

Sometimes, I hear a rumbling in meditation or in lucid dreams - but I've never associated it with the high-pitched sound, rather with "energy releases" in the A&P. I have concluded that the rumbling is caused by trembling of the little muscles attached to my ears, or perhaps to trembling in the neck musculature. The energetic phenomena often go along with a distinct "stiff neck, stiff back" sensation.

While there's no rumbling in my perception of the sound, there is a subtle, "shadow", or whispered component like a huge helicopter rotor spinning slowly overhead, or like a large water bird, like a swan, taking off from a lake (but much more subtle). It's more like a fluctuation in the perception than an actual sound perception.

Your description of the sound stopping for several seconds is very intriguing - what form did your "request" take? Did you do insight practice, or something comparable, at the time?

This is a very cool discussion.

Cheers,
Florian
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Wet Paint, modified 11 Years ago.

RE: "Nada" sound

Post: 1 Join Date: 8/11/09 Recent Posts
Hi Florian,

This is indeed a very interesting discussion.

While I haven't examined the rumbling during meditation, it makes sense to me if the sound is caused by trembling of muscles: I can hear the rumbling during all my hours awake, and I can feel the rumbling in my body, too — not unlike a bus or a heavy vehicle passing on the street outside, except “my” rumble is more stable and more subtle.

I wonder if the wispered component you mention is what I call »somebody using a hairdryer in the next room«? I can't always find that sound, or component, whereas it's impossible for me to not notice the high-pitched tones and the deep bass rumbling — they're always there.

My “request” was simply that, a request: I was outside on a summer's day, in a green area in Copenhagen, and my head was weary from constant chatter (it was during a 5-7 year Dark Night period), and my emotions were very dark and heavy. I just wished I could relax and look at the sunshine and the green grass, and hear the birds singing, without being burdened by the sounds in my mind. So I silently said to my self (aloud, not mentally), three times: »Please be silent for a moment.« And my mind became all quiet (no chatter, no tinnitus) for a few seconds. It was like being in Paradise, or something. Then after the few seconds everything was back to normal. I have been unable to reproduce this, unfortunately. ;)

Cheers,
Klaus
Wet Paint, modified 11 Years ago.

RE: "Nada" sound

Posts: 5 Join Date: 8/22/09 Recent Posts
There are a couple of retreats coming up in the tradition of Ajahn Chah and Ajahn Sumehdo;
http://www.saranaloka.org/retreats.html
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Wet Paint, modified 11 Years ago.

RE: "Nada" sound

Posts: 362 Join Date: 8/22/09 Recent Posts
I am going to go out on a limb and say that, while I am not certain how much of full a survey I have made, it appears that every cell, at least every living cell, in the body is emitting vibrations which can take the forms of light and sound. Also every discernible coordinate in the body appears capable of expressing a mind vibration in the forms of sights and sounds. There are times that my whole body sounds like a three ring circus or a traffic jam and times when it sounds like it apprenticed under Mozart.

With subtle phenomena it can be difficult to discern what is body and what is mind or what is arising from resultant conditions and what is new karma/kamma making. I think to try to derive meaning from the whole show would be an idealized narrative of one kind or another so I won't even try. I think it is all potentially skillful examination and it can be very helpful to proceed from gross to subtle or in some methodical way with every phenomena in order to learn what conditions are involved and in order to explore how conditions condition conditions.
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Wet Paint, modified 11 Years ago.

RE: "Nada" sound

Posts: 22924 Join Date: 8/6/09 Recent Posts
Author: amaranatho

The way Ajahn Sumedho use the sound of silence, is something to rest in and watch how the mind gets formed if you need to understand this. Its all very exciting about whether it is subtle vibrations or frequencies, tones- The important thing is to wake up to who you really are. That you are not a vibration, tone, frequency, you real home is beyond all that, and the quicker one realize this - the easier life is.

If you can get along to Sister Thansanti retreat - she heard the sound of silence when her head was inside of a bears mouth just outisde Dharmsala many year agao before she was a nun.



So notice the quality of the sound - no views, no opinions, no size, no shape, no colour, no judgments, no dailogue, no actions, no birth and no death.

be well
amarantho
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Wet Paint, modified 11 Years ago.

RE: "Nada" sound

Posts: 362 Join Date: 8/22/09 Recent Posts
I kid old friends by saying, 'I used to be an artist but I'm all right now'. Growing up into early adulthood I poured considerable passion into the art and science of music. In good humor I consider the complete disillusionment with it and absolute dispassion for it now to be audio arahatship. I couldn't possibly appreciate music or sound more regardless of how the mind and body reacts and I will never long to ever hear any of it again.

Q. Is a pure and transcendent silence the ideal idealization?
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Wet Paint, modified 11 Years ago.

RE: "Nada" sound

Posts: 22924 Join Date: 8/6/09 Recent Posts
Author: marinr

I also went trough a complete disillusionment with music and my instrument.

But, I'm now more interested in it from another, not so 'artistic', perspective. It might be a way to express heightened states. I saw a correlation of chakras and tones
in one book about Tantra. I also have a feeling that different rhythmic structures work in a similar way. It might be fun to explore this.
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Wet Paint, modified 11 Years ago.

RE: "Nada" sound

Posts: 22924 Join Date: 8/6/09 Recent Posts
Author: Daniel_G

I just realized where I first ran into a reference to this. Back in 1972 a group called ZBS media produced a mystical radio serial called 'the 4th tower of inverness' and there are several direct references to listening to this sound and it's bringing about 'The New Age' and waking up people. There are also serious references to many other mystical subjects but this came back to me last year when I started practicing with 'the sound'. They (ZBS) are still in business. Amazing how teachings can appear.
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Florian Weps, modified 6 Years ago.

RE: "Nada" sound

Posts: 1028 Join Date: 4/28/09 Recent Posts
Hi James

welcome to the DhO!

That's an nice summary you present there.

Your points about the sound not being "internal" are interesting but not convincing to me, unless by "internal" you mean something other than "subjective". If I can move it using my attention, then it is highly subjective.

Cheers,
Florian
Rafal K, modified 6 Years ago.

RE: "Nada" sound

Posts: 12 Join Date: 10/16/13 Recent Posts
Hello!

I'm also working for some time now with the sound as an object for concentration.
I see myself as a beginer, but the sound I hear, doesn't apear on either side. It is just somewhere inside (I never understood how in Nada Yoga they say to listen to the right ear).
I also use it as a working day object, just to be mindful about it beeing "back there".
From interesting things about it, I can "squeeze" it, but don't really know how to describe that (this is probably taking me to a jahna state, I guess) - after I do that and stop, it flows out through whole of the body.

Anyway, I would love to see some more discussion about it.

Love,
Rafal
Daniel F Gurzynski, modified 6 Years ago.

RE: "Nada" sound

Posts: 23 Join Date: 8/22/09 Recent Posts
I think there is something about listening that is different as far as mental states. Years ago when I was very into ham radio and using morse code at high speed, I would get into very strong concentration states just trying to listen thru noise or static and not get in the way of my brain converting dots and dashes to a message.
Very similiar in some ways to Kenneth Folks mahamudra practice of listening for 'ships in the harbor' even if you could in no way physically hear them. Anyone else notice this?


Rafal K:
Hello!

I'm also working for some time now with the sound as an object for concentration.
I see myself as a beginer, but the sound I hear, doesn't apear on either side. It is just somewhere inside (I never understood how in Nada Yoga they say to listen to the right ear).
I also use it as a working day object, just to be mindful about it beeing "back there".
From interesting things about it, I can "squeeze" it, but don't really know how to describe that (this is probably taking me to a jahna state, I guess) - after I do that and stop, it flows out through whole of the body.

Anyway, I would love to see some more discussion about it.

Love,
Rafal
Rafal K, modified 6 Years ago.

RE: "Nada" sound

Posts: 12 Join Date: 10/16/13 Recent Posts
Thank you very much James,

This is nice find. I will read it next. At the moment I'm reading "the sound of silence" and listening to the "4th tower of Inverness"(spelling?) that was mentioned somewhere in this thread.
Also about 2 days ago I think I hit stream entry. For a short moment I was aware that everything but my attention and the sound is impernament and therfore not-me. That only the attention is somehow me'ish, but more in the sense that it is always there. From that moment my concentration is oh so strong, as I only have to point my attention at something and it stays there.

Regards,
Rafal
Small Steps, modified 6 Years ago.

RE: "Nada" sound

Posts: 246 Join Date: 2/12/14 Recent Posts
This discussion really speaks to me. I was diagnosed around age 10 with tinnitus, and it's always just been something I've begrudgingly accepted. In recent years, it would occasionally be so bothersome as to interrupt my sleep and so I would view it with something of a negative slant. Most recently, however, in the past three or four months, I've been much more attuned to a new tone that has appeared. It is sometimes very apparent, and seems to be much more audible in the right ear. Whether it is a manifestation of this 'nada' sound, meditative tinnitus, or just a new evolution of the original diagnosis, I can't say.

I have noticed though, that as my concentration has developed over the years, I am able to get a little more absorbed into the original tones if I take them as the object of my concentration. The new tone, however, seems to have some more interesting qualities to it. During one sit, I used it as my object, and was immediately pulled into a very stable and deep absorption. I was so shocked by it, I immediately lost focus. The way I was 'sucked into' the samadhi?/jhanic? state felt very much like the descriptions I've read of the first Jhana pulling a meditator in when there is a stable and significant nimitta available.

These experiences have completely transformed my relationship with tinnitus. Where I once had much trepidation around it, I now see it as a curious phenomena to be investigated. A new relationship waits to be formed.
Small Steps, modified 6 Years ago.

RE: "Nada" sound

Posts: 246 Join Date: 2/12/14 Recent Posts
Hi James,
James Corrigan:

From my readings, the point about trying to hear with the right ear is to make you focus your attention on that side in order to occupy the left brain hemisphere where 95% of us have our speech and language center. By focusing strongly on that side, we shut down or reduce the normal internal chatter, making our concentration that much more absorbed in what is going on. We're not really hearing with the right ear, because the Nada is internal and not an external sound. The increased audibility of the new tone may have more to do with your increasingly focused attention and absorption in the Nada tone your are hearing.

This is all new territory for me to explore, but I am inclined to agree. The new tone seemed to become known as concentration improved over time.

James Corrigan:

I've never heard of "meditative tinnitus." Is that a common occurrence? I wonder if it is just the Nada becoming apparent as concentration and absorption skills increase? I'd welcome any information about this!


I can't speak to how common it is, but I did find some resources describing it on the good 'ol Interwebs. If it is indeed related to what we are talking about, it is said to be a manifestation of the 'divine ear, (Pali: dibba-sota). There are a few yogic practices that focus on it. This is an interesting article about it by a (former?) DhO participant.

James Corrigan:

It would be great if you could report back on what your experience is with this as your practice continues. (if you don't mind me requesting that)


I will definitely report back with any new developments. A cheeky thought arises every now and then that I should really give this a thorough investigation and see if there's any measurable clairaudience to be cultivated. Perhaps if I can get a reliable, stable absorption, I'll ask some friends to humor me in an experiment or three emoticon
Small Steps, modified 6 Years ago.

RE: "Nada" sound

Posts: 246 Join Date: 2/12/14 Recent Posts
While doing more research, I came across this book by Ajahn Amaro:

Inner Listening

I've just started reading it, but it 'sounds' promising :-)
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Florian Weps, modified 6 Years ago.

RE: "Nada" sound

Posts: 1028 Join Date: 4/28/09 Recent Posts
James Corrigan:
I agree with you that if I could move the sounds around with my attention, then they would be, given their other characteristics, internal. But as I have found, they are presented in reference to my attention, so that 'left' and 'right' mean, roughly, on the left side of my attentional field or point of focus, or on the right side.


All right, I originally misunderstood your description. Thanks for the clarification.

Since you're asking: Currently, I don't see much of a difference at all between awareness and awareness-of, i.e. awareness of the sound and the sound itself is pretty much the same thing. The sound arises, awareness arises. Semantic difference only.

Your take?

Also, I wasn't aware there were tradidional texts dealing with this phenomenon. Would you recommend any particular edition, or translation? Extra bonus points if available online emoticon

Cheers,
Florian
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Dream Walker, modified 6 Years ago.

RE: "Nada" sound

Posts: 1311 Join Date: 1/18/12 Recent Posts
Cool stuff...thanks for posting...always wondered about the "sound"
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Florian Weps, modified 6 Years ago.

RE: "Nada" sound

Posts: 1028 Join Date: 4/28/09 Recent Posts
James Corrigan:
Florian, before I respond, could you clarify for me if the sentence "The sound arises, awareness arises." means two things arise independently or are linked in an "if ... then ..." relationship (either contemporaneously or sequentially forward or backward (former to latter or latter to former); or that they are equivalent and indistinguishable ways of referring to the same event?


They are equivalent (but obviously distinguishable, they are separate words and concepts after all) ways of referring to the same state of affairs. "Event" doesn't quite capture it because to me the word "event" has connotations of discreteness, "one-in-a-row-of-falling-dominoes being watched", lacking the subtle sense of self-sufficiency, self-evidence, and unboundedness.

Hard to express. Let me know whether I was able to convey it intelligibly.

Thanks for the references. I'm still reading the 8000-Verse Perfection of Wisdom Sutra. So now I know what's next on my reading list emoticon

Cheers,
Florian
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Florian Weps, modified 6 Years ago.

RE: "Nada" sound

Posts: 1028 Join Date: 4/28/09 Recent Posts
James Corrigan:
So, to answer your question, I don't disagree with your understanding, but I don't like how you phrased that sentence :-)


Yeah, you and me both. It's something I noticed a couple of years ago - how when I try to express this kind of stuff, only garbled nonsense seems to come out. Trying to counter this by using careful language would result in more garbled nonsense. Have you watched a 3-4 year old trying to express something but lacking the language skills? It feels a lot like that.

Poetry seems like a great way to express it, but you seem to be dissatisfied with poetic expression. Why?

Prior Wisdom: every awakening is a private awakening. The Prior Wisdom helps by presenting concepts and words which have been used to communicate it. Thoughts?

Cheers,
Florian
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Gary Sanders, modified 6 Years ago.

RE: "Nada" sound

Posts: 10 Join Date: 4/20/12 Recent Posts
Ah, thank you for showing me, once again, I am not a special snow flake. And thank you all so much for this thread. On my last retreat, where I was working with the jhanas specifically, that high pitched sound began to show me that I was hitting an absorbed state. Not distracting, just a signpost. And my teacher didn't have anything to offer me about it.
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Dream Walker, modified 6 Years ago.

RE: "Nada" sound

Posts: 1311 Join Date: 1/18/12 Recent Posts
Gary Sanders:
On my last retreat, where I was working with the jhanas specifically, that high pitched sound began to show me that I was hitting an absorbed state. Not distracting, just a signpost.

When I hit 3rd jhana the sound would kick in..look for visual indicators for the 4th jhana. Thats how it played out for me...useful signposts.
Good Luck,
~D
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Gary Sanders, modified 6 Years ago.

RE: "Nada" sound

Posts: 10 Join Date: 4/20/12 Recent Posts
Dream Walker:
Gary Sanders:
On my last retreat, where I was working with the jhanas specifically, that high pitched sound began to show me that I was hitting an absorbed state. Not distracting, just a signpost.

When I hit 3rd jhana the sound would kick in..look for visual indicators for the 4th jhana. Thats how it played out for me...useful signposts.
Good Luck,
~D
I'd get it arrising right before I went into 1st jhana....and I'm pretty sure it stayed all thru 2-4 too.

Also, I get a slight pressure sensation in my skull. Almost as if wearing a beanie or ski cap...but way more subtle. Any one get that?
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Dream Walker, modified 4 Years ago.

RE: "Nada" sound

Posts: 1311 Join Date: 1/18/12 Recent Posts
Something I stumbled upon on wikipedia -
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Reverberation_of_Sound

But this is not always the case in the Buddhadharma as the sound in the title of this tantra denotes the immutable, unconditioned, uncreated, 'primordial sound' (nada)
Eva M Nie, modified 6 Years ago.

RE: "Nada" sound

Posts: 831 Join Date: 3/23/14 Recent Posts
This website has some common tinnitus sounds that you can play for comparison and it gives the hertz : http://www.ata.org/sounds-of-tinnitus .  Tinnitus seems to be a fancy name for hearing weird monotonous sounds, they don't know much about it and its been assumed that it is due to ear damage, but research suggests the origin of the sound is in the brain, not the ears.  It can be easy to assume that what happens in meditation is special and unique but I suspect that some of this stuff is common in the nonmeditating population as well.  Lots of people have all kinds of 'weird' experiences outside of meditation but many are hesitant to talk about it for fear others will think they are crazy or exagerating. If science doesn't understand something, they tend to give it a name and make it sound like they know about it, even when they know very little, like in the case of tinnitus.
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Jen Pearly, modified 6 Years ago.

RE: "Nada" sound

Posts: 566 Join Date: 7/28/13 Recent Posts
Hi, Florian,

Yes, all the time. I'm hearing them this moment, now that you mention it. Often there are many layers of "sound" there, and one of my favorite things to do is take this layered sound and add in the tree frogs and cicadas from outside on a summer night. It is wonderful. I did this a lot in Equanimity.

If you hear ringing while running a hair dryer, however, that's the devil. Run! emoticon

Jenny

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