Forum: Practical Dharma

Does anyone here have experience or opinions about the "nada", that high-pitched tv-tube-like sound?

It's not distracting, but I can focus on it easily. I usually watch the breath as my meditation object, but sometimes, I try to be aware of the breath and the sound simultaneously, which I find interesting, because the breath has a low frequency and the sound a high one.

Cheers,
Florian

If you mean the various sounds you hear that are not made by anything but seem to just come from your ears, yes, definitely.

These can be an interesting object for both concentration and insight meditation, depending on which aspect one looks at (There Characteristics vs. stability). There is actually a monk I heard of who teaches these sounds as primary object.

One can break them down into all sorts of different aspects, different tones/harmonics (higher, lower, etc.), different pulses of those tones, different spacial placements, and the like, and they are as good an object as any other, demonstrating ultimate aspects like all other sensations. If you really investigate the breath, you will find high frequencies also...

Good to know that I am not the only one that hear this sound. I thought it was some sort of meditation tinnitus and I have been trying to avoid it....

I will explore it as a secondary object of meditation.

Author: amaranatho

Hi there,

have a look at Ajahn Sumedho book sound of silence, he has been using it for years.

Hope that helps
Amaranatho

Great! Thanks for the hint. I found the preview of the book in google under:

http://books.google.de/books?id=TqKbrmljVdwC&printsec=frontcover&hl=en

Author: pratyekabuddha

I don't do religion, so I don't know the word "nada," however there may be a base pseudo-frequency in relation to the human brain which we "hear."
{quote}
Coherent gamma frequency oscillations (collectively known as "coherent 40 Hz") are suggested to mediate temporal binding of conscious experience and to act as the neural correlate of consciousness.
{/quote}
Gamma oscillations in the 30- to 70-Hz range and upward are often mentioned in current discussions of the possible involvement of quantum "computations" in the manifesting of consciousness. {search http://arxiv.org for 'consciousness'}.
I mention this because years ago I followed "tones" "down," in effect slower and slower. The poetic way of saying this may be one hand clapping -- or the space between moments -- wherein I experienced each moment. Of course each moment reveals the universe as not there at all! One experiences the *next* moment! *laughing*here*.

Oh shoot I shouldn't have said that about one hand clapping! There is an actual sound of one hand clapping -- laughter. It's one of the funniest things in the world. I wish I could find it but so far I haven't -- there is a picture of two monks falling over laughing pointing at a little leaf flying in the wind.

Love you all .....
Michael

No, the sound is subjectively much more highly-pitched than 30-70Hz. That would be a low drone, similar to the hum on a badly-connected stereo.

But thanks for your reply.

Cheers,
Florian

Author: pratyekabuddha


Hi Florian,

Of course I have no idea if this answers what you were asking about, but my other connection with sound is listening to this guy

http://www.paullowe.org

toning. That is, he tones with his voice. It's truly remarkable. I have a CD I could send you mwalsh7782@yahoo.com
For me, listening is an invitation to my presence to go there so to speak. But that may not be your interest.

Hey,

Ajahn Sumedho and Ajahn Amaro (of Ahajn Chah lineage) teache to utilize this what they call the "sound of silence" as an object of meditation. It is so loud for me sometimes that it virtually begs to be focused on instead of the breath. I have looked for teachers around me (Philly) who teach this method, but they are hard to find. I even visited Abhayagiri Monastery, but Ajahn Amaro was not around.

If you listen for it, it never goes away, always present so Ajahn Sumedho claims it is a great object to focus on to realize the deathless.

Excerpt:
"And in order to do that one learns to sit still and listen to the silence. Not that this is going to make you enlightened, but it's going against the momentum of habit; against restless energies of the body and emotions. So you listen to the silence. You can hear my voice; you can hear the sounds of things that happen, but behind all that is a kind of high-pitch, almost electronic buzz. That's what I call 'the sound of silence.' I find that a very helpful way of concentrating the mind because when one begins to notice that - without regarding it as any kind of attainment or achievement - it becomes a convenient method for contemplation, in order to hear yourself think."
-- From a Sunday talk at Amaravati, given by Luang Por Sumedho, summer 1994. \
http://www.forestsangha.org/sumedho18.htm

It was helpful for sometime in my practice but then for lack of teachers I decided to go back to the breath. Hope this helps.

- A

Everybody who replied: Thanks!

I haven't used it as a primary object, but find it very useful to "muffle" (keep at a distance, not get involved with) thoughts and memories as they arise and pass when I do concentration practice: as I focus on the breath sensation, a thought rises "through" the sound, does its thing, then sinks back into the sound, similar to Ven. Sumedho's description which AndruP quoted.

For insight practice, I haven't used it at all yet.

Maybe I should get the book - but I feel that I've read enough books for now, and want to find out for myself.

Those who have read it, maybe they could do a review on the "books" section?

Cheers,
Florian

Author: amaranatho

HI,

My understanding of using the sound of silence. Is it allows one to embrace rather then deflect objects. try to notice how you feel when you hear the sound, the quality of attention, body, mind. In my experience you can only hear the sound when you are open and relaxed, receptive. That does not mean liking or disliking, but an attitude of welcoming everything.

So rather than muffling or trying to remove suffering we get to understand what it is, how it operates. So notice how thought objects/mind objects. you sense of self arise form the ground of the sound of silence. And ask yourself which is more peaceful the arises and ceasing of objects or the sound of silence?

You can then use the sound of silence for both samatha (that is concentration) and insight and in my experience there is no difference between the two. One pointed concentration is one point - that is undivided. So again notice the quality of the sound of silence - is it divided - who divides between sound of silence and objects.

Basically in the book, Ajahn Sumedho ask you to reflect, investigate what experience is, how it arise and passes by welcoming everything. This is an attitude one takes towards meditation, it is not a technique or method. If helpful can write more.
Hope that helps

Author: sonamdolma

My response has been eaten by the infinite.

OK, another try....

amarantho - yes, please. This is helpful and very interesting to me and I would like to hear more.

Author: amaranatho

So your response has been eaten by the infinite - this is just like the sound of silence - it eats everything. So just give it a try its very simple - just stay open in relaxed and receptive way and sort of listen, and if all goes well and you dont struggle or try to create the sound... you will hear the sound.

Then explore the sound like a young child, how big is it, where is it located, where does it stop, does it complain, make judgments, criticize. does it say your the greatest, praise you. Be like a wandering detective...

This is a very simple and very direct way to what Ajahn Sumedho calls the way it is. What condition experience is. Because of this - that happens and then using the sound of silence we get perspective on the whole process and then its very simple you choice - suffer or not suffer - up to you...

what about that...

Amaranatho,

Regarding meditation technique and method, I practice according to (my understanding of) the anapanasati sutta (MN 118).

Regarding the "muffling" - here's what I tried to express:

For the first tetrad - mindfulness of the body - the sound helps me because it is "louder" than other mental phenomena like thoughts and memories, so I "enter" them (open them up, get lost in their content) less frequently, and can notice them ("welcome" them) for what they are, instead of what they are about.

For the second tetrad, the sound is a great support for mainaining the "rapture" feeling in the early steps: I can let the sudden urges to intervene just dissipate in the sound instead of directing them at the feeling. I'm still a bit shaky on this one.

I guess for the third and fourth tetrad, the sound as a mental phenomenon might become an object of focus in its own right, but I'm definitely not there yet.

What I like about the anapanasati sutta is the "integrated" development of concentration and insight. The steps can be followed in order to solidify a state for concentration, or to analyse a state for insight. It took me a while to come to this conclusion, but it seems very obvious now. I find it useful to distinguish between the two types of exercise. One metaphor I like is training two different muscle groups - they have different functions, but can be trained in the same gym.

Thanks for your comments, they have been very helpful.

Cheers,
Florian

Author: amaranatho

HI Florian,

whatever works for you is fine and also notice what we create on top of the the uncreated. Investigate what or who creates the sound. One of the problems with sutta and (I'm not saying that you are doing this), is that they are static representation of a dynamic process. That is they are after the event. So sutta can only be used after the event to recognize what we may have gone through. They are not things to attain to really.

The Buddha teaching are always on two levels the mundane and the supermundane and so on the mundane level we can develop good qualities, as for the supermundane that is different, its recognition.

So the point of the buddha teaching in my understanding is to be aware of two different muscles, the gym, the exercising, the body, the training, the whole lot . Once we aware of what we are doing then we can let the world be the world.

So with 3rd and 4th tetrad try just sitting with the sound and watch the mental objects - the mind talk, the body- arise and cease. Your mind does not need to be quiet, you don't need rapture, or bliss. 3rd and 4th are much more subtle than 1st and 2nd and for westerners this is more important to discern because we are so caught up with our minds.

be well
amaranatho

When pursuing goals, it's important to have a useful, skillful goal. A goal that is only in the future can never be met, even if that goal comes from reading a sutta - is that what you're warning against? My goal for meditation is to concentrate on the breath as it occurs - and in this concentration I either assemble a state or take it apart, to find out what that is like. Studying the anapanasati sutta, I recognize stuff I have experienced, and find hints on what to look for, ideas to try next time, etc.

Reading the sutta also gives me great confidence when I notice, "oh, doing this really leads to that - I recognize that, it's happened to me, too! Wow! This stuff is about real phenomena!"

Thanks for your help.

Cheers,
Florian

Author: amaranatho

Hi florian,

One of the problems of this type of interaction is the limitation of language. I actually warning against having goals or attainments. Another of the Buddha teaching is using the four noble truths - that is there is suffering, the cause of suffering, and there is a cessation of suffering. What cause suffering is when we try to attain something. Its about the relationship of the condition world to the unconditioned.

Its great that you can see that some of your insights you recognize from the sutta - we feel happy and confident. Then its starts not to work and then we can think the teaching dont work. So its great that you faith in the teachings and what the Buddha was pointing to was the realization of the unconditioned, freeing the heart... and this is a recognition not an attainment.

In the western world we are brought up to attain to get something, to discriminate, one is better than the other and so on. So we can turn this discrimination into understanding how our minds work and thus freeing ourselves, which is based on wisdom not education...

The tradition I come from is that whatever we say is for reflection, its not dogma or doctrine. Just see how this feels, its not important so much on what I say, or whether you believe me...
Amaranatho

Amaranatho,

Thanks for offering your thoughts for reflection. I appreciate the approach of your tradition. So, aware of the limitations of web-based discussions, here's my reply:

I understand your warning against having goals or pursuing attainments as a warning against one more goody to consume, one more ideal to become.

You allude to the second noble truth: "The origin of suffering, as a noble truth, is this: It is the craving that produces renewal of being accompanied by enjoyment and lust, and enjoying this and that; in other words, craving for sensual desires, craving for being, craving for non-being." (from Venerable Ñanamoli Thera's translation of the Dhammacakkappavattana Sutta).

I notice you left out the fourth noble truth: the development of sila, samadhi, and panna: the noble eightfold path.

In the mundane language of goals and attainments, this path leads to "realization of the unconditioned" (if I may quote you slightly out of context) by the development of skillful, wholesome qualities.

Language pointing to the supramundane: recognition, acknowledgement, mindfulness, awareness, letting go, welcoming, right view, viewing things in terms of the four noble truths.

What I got out of your thoughts for reflection:

"I meditate so I will become enlightened"

"I meditate, watching me want to become enlightened"

Thanks!

Cheers,
Florian

Author: amaranatho

HI Florian,

great... so what is aware of the thought "I meditate, watching me want to become enlightened"

:-)
amaranatho

Author: MagicianOfChange

But I sometimes hear low frequency tones as well. Epically when I yawn for some reason. I noticed it most prominently after I received a csft healing. (http://www.healtouch.com/csft/index.html) They told me it had sometime to do with vibrational modes of my spinal fluid. I don't really have any experience with csft so I don't really know what to make of that.

The sounds as I hear them are like in the 1-10 kHz regime, or even higher.

It's very good for me to find that I'm not the only one that hears these sounds. The sounds have been with me incessantly for as long as I can remember, and I've been trying in vain for the past 45 years, or so, to convey the experience of this phenomenon to family and friends, to no avail. Nobody seems to know what I'm talking about. For at least a couple of decades I'd accepted that it was probably tinnitus, and it was not until I read MCTB that it dawned to me that it could be something else, and earlier today Florian gave me a pointer to this thread on DhO.

It is not quite true that the sounds have been there incessantly. Firstly, I cannot remember them from any dreams I've had — not even lucid ones — and secondly, they stopped [at my request] for 5 or 10 seconds back in around 1990. I haven't been able to reproduce it ever since.

The sounds are probably in the 1-10 kHz regime, and are “visible” in my hearing field throughout all my waking hours, even in a noisy environment. Except for the 5-10 seconds mentioned above I have been unable to not finding the sounds, ever.

Sometime within the past 20 years I have become aware of a new component of the sounds, though. It sounds like a faint rumbling bass as from traffic noise from afar. For great many years I actually considered moving from my current address because I thought that the rumbling sounds (and associated physical sensations) indeed were traffic noise. It was not until I heard the sounds while being on a retreat in Sweden, miles away from civilisation in a snow covered landscape, that I had to admit that the bass rumbling isn't — and probably never have been — traffic noise.

Hi Klaus,

This is an old thread; meanwhile, I have made the sound my primary insight meditation object. I continue to use the breath for concentration practice.

Sometimes, I hear a rumbling in meditation or in lucid dreams - but I've never associated it with the high-pitched sound, rather with "energy releases" in the A&P. I have concluded that the rumbling is caused by trembling of the little muscles attached to my ears, or perhaps to trembling in the neck musculature. The energetic phenomena often go along with a distinct "stiff neck, stiff back" sensation.

While there's no rumbling in my perception of the sound, there is a subtle, "shadow", or whispered component like a huge helicopter rotor spinning slowly overhead, or like a large water bird, like a swan, taking off from a lake (but much more subtle). It's more like a fluctuation in the perception than an actual sound perception.

Your description of the sound stopping for several seconds is very intriguing - what form did your "request" take? Did you do insight practice, or something comparable, at the time?

This is a very cool discussion.

Cheers,
Florian

Hi Florian,

This is indeed a very interesting discussion.

While I haven't examined the rumbling during meditation, it makes sense to me if the sound is caused by trembling of muscles: I can hear the rumbling during all my hours awake, and I can feel the rumbling in my body, too — not unlike a bus or a heavy vehicle passing on the street outside, except “my” rumble is more stable and more subtle.

I wonder if the wispered component you mention is what I call »somebody using a hairdryer in the next room«? I can't always find that sound, or component, whereas it's impossible for me to not notice the high-pitched tones and the deep bass rumbling — they're always there.

My “request” was simply that, a request: I was outside on a summer's day, in a green area in Copenhagen, and my head was weary from constant chatter (it was during a 5-7 year Dark Night period), and my emotions were very dark and heavy. I just wished I could relax and look at the sunshine and the green grass, and hear the birds singing, without being burdened by the sounds in my mind. So I silently said to my self (aloud, not mentally), three times: »Please be silent for a moment.« And my mind became all quiet (no chatter, no tinnitus) for a few seconds. It was like being in Paradise, or something. Then after the few seconds everything was back to normal. I have been unable to reproduce this, unfortunately. ;)

Cheers,
Klaus

There are a couple of retreats coming up in the tradition of Ajahn Chah and Ajahn Sumehdo;
http://www.saranaloka.org/retreats.html

I am going to go out on a limb and say that, while I am not certain how much of full a survey I have made, it appears that every cell, at least every living cell, in the body is emitting vibrations which can take the forms of light and sound. Also every discernible coordinate in the body appears capable of expressing a mind vibration in the forms of sights and sounds. There are times that my whole body sounds like a three ring circus or a traffic jam and times when it sounds like it apprenticed under Mozart.

With subtle phenomena it can be difficult to discern what is body and what is mind or what is arising from resultant conditions and what is new karma/kamma making. I think to try to derive meaning from the whole show would be an idealized narrative of one kind or another so I won't even try. I think it is all potentially skillful examination and it can be very helpful to proceed from gross to subtle or in some methodical way with every phenomena in order to learn what conditions are involved and in order to explore how conditions condition conditions.

Author: amaranatho

The way Ajahn Sumedho use the sound of silence, is something to rest in and watch how the mind gets formed if you need to understand this. Its all very exciting about whether it is subtle vibrations or frequencies, tones- The important thing is to wake up to who you really are. That you are not a vibration, tone, frequency, you real home is beyond all that, and the quicker one realize this - the easier life is.

If you can get along to Sister Thansanti retreat - she heard the sound of silence when her head was inside of a bears mouth just outisde Dharmsala many year agao before she was a nun.



So notice the quality of the sound - no views, no opinions, no size, no shape, no colour, no judgments, no dailogue, no actions, no birth and no death.

be well
amarantho

I kid old friends by saying, 'I used to be an artist but I'm all right now'. Growing up into early adulthood I poured considerable passion into the art and science of music. In good humor I consider the complete disillusionment with it and absolute dispassion for it now to be audio arahatship. I couldn't possibly appreciate music or sound more regardless of how the mind and body reacts and I will never long to ever hear any of it again.

Q. Is a pure and transcendent silence the ideal idealization?

Author: marinr

I also went trough a complete disillusionment with music and my instrument.

But, I'm now more interested in it from another, not so 'artistic', perspective. It might be a way to express heightened states. I saw a correlation of chakras and tones
in one book about Tantra. I also have a feeling that different rhythmic structures work in a similar way. It might be fun to explore this.

Author: Daniel_G

I just realized where I first ran into a reference to this. Back in 1972 a group called ZBS media produced a mystical radio serial called 'the 4th tower of inverness' and there are several direct references to listening to this sound and it's bringing about 'The New Age' and waking up people. There are also serious references to many other mystical subjects but this came back to me last year when I started practicing with 'the sound'. They (ZBS) are still in business. Amazing how teachings can appear.

Hi James

welcome to the DhO!

That's an nice summary you present there.

Your points about the sound not being "internal" are interesting but not convincing to me, unless by "internal" you mean something other than "subjective". If I can move it using my attention, then it is highly subjective.

Cheers,
Florian

Hello!

I'm also working for some time now with the sound as an object for concentration.
I see myself as a beginer, but the sound I hear, doesn't apear on either side. It is just somewhere inside (I never understood how in Nada Yoga they say to listen to the right ear).
I also use it as a working day object, just to be mindful about it beeing "back there".
From interesting things about it, I can "squeeze" it, but don't really know how to describe that (this is probably taking me to a jahna state, I guess) - after I do that and stop, it flows out through whole of the body.

Anyway, I would love to see some more discussion about it.

Love,
Rafal

I think there is something about listening that is different as far as mental states. Years ago when I was very into ham radio and using morse code at high speed, I would get into very strong concentration states just trying to listen thru noise or static and not get in the way of my brain converting dots and dashes to a message.
Very similiar in some ways to Kenneth Folks mahamudra practice of listening for 'ships in the harbor' even if you could in no way physically hear them. Anyone else notice this?

All right, I originally misunderstood your description. Thanks for the clarification.

Since you're asking: Currently, I don't see much of a difference at all between awareness and awareness-of, i.e. awareness of the sound and the sound itself is pretty much the same thing. The sound arises, awareness arises. Semantic difference only.

Your take?

Also, I wasn't aware there were tradidional texts dealing with this phenomenon. Would you recommend any particular edition, or translation? Extra bonus points if available online

Cheers,
Florian

Cool stuff...thanks for posting...always wondered about the "sound"

They are equivalent (but obviously distinguishable, they are separate words and concepts after all) ways of referring to the same state of affairs. "Event" doesn't quite capture it because to me the word "event" has connotations of discreteness, "one-in-a-row-of-falling-dominoes being watched", lacking the subtle sense of self-sufficiency, self-evidence, and unboundedness.

Hard to express. Let me know whether I was able to convey it intelligibly.

Thanks for the references. I'm still reading the 8000-Verse Perfection of Wisdom Sutra. So now I know what's next on my reading list

Cheers,
Florian

Yeah, you and me both. It's something I noticed a couple of years ago - how when I try to express this kind of stuff, only garbled nonsense seems to come out. Trying to counter this by using careful language would result in more garbled nonsense. Have you watched a 3-4 year old trying to express something but lacking the language skills? It feels a lot like that.

Poetry seems like a great way to express it, but you seem to be dissatisfied with poetic expression. Why?

Prior Wisdom: every awakening is a private awakening. The Prior Wisdom helps by presenting concepts and words which have been used to communicate it. Thoughts?

Cheers,
Florian

Thank you very much James,

This is nice find. I will read it next. At the moment I'm reading "the sound of silence" and listening to the "4th tower of Inverness"(spelling?) that was mentioned somewhere in this thread.
Also about 2 days ago I think I hit stream entry. For a short moment I was aware that everything but my attention and the sound is impernament and therfore not-me. That only the attention is somehow me'ish, but more in the sense that it is always there. From that moment my concentration is oh so strong, as I only have to point my attention at something and it stays there.

Regards,
Rafal

This discussion really speaks to me. I was diagnosed around age 10 with tinnitus, and it's always just been something I've begrudgingly accepted. In recent years, it would occasionally be so bothersome as to interrupt my sleep and so I would view it with something of a negative slant. Most recently, however, in the past three or four months, I've been much more attuned to a new tone that has appeared. It is sometimes very apparent, and seems to be much more audible in the right ear. Whether it is a manifestation of this 'nada' sound, meditative tinnitus, or just a new evolution of the original diagnosis, I can't say.

I have noticed though, that as my concentration has developed over the years, I am able to get a little more absorbed into the original tones if I take them as the object of my concentration. The new tone, however, seems to have some more interesting qualities to it. During one sit, I used it as my object, and was immediately pulled into a very stable and deep absorption. I was so shocked by it, I immediately lost focus. The way I was 'sucked into' the samadhi?/jhanic? state felt very much like the descriptions I've read of the first Jhana pulling a meditator in when there is a stable and significant nimitta available.

These experiences have completely transformed my relationship with tinnitus. Where I once had much trepidation around it, I now see it as a curious phenomena to be investigated. A new relationship waits to be formed.

Hi James,

This is all new territory for me to explore, but I am inclined to agree. The new tone seemed to become known as concentration improved over time.



I can't speak to how common it is, but I did find some resources describing it on the good 'ol Interwebs. If it is indeed related to what we are talking about, it is said to be a manifestation of the 'divine ear, (Pali: dibba-sota). There are a few yogic practices that focus on it. This is an interesting article about it by a (former?) DhO participant.



I will definitely report back with any new developments. A cheeky thought arises every now and then that I should really give this a thorough investigation and see if there's any measurable clairaudience to be cultivated. Perhaps if I can get a reliable, stable absorption, I'll ask some friends to humor me in an experiment or three

While doing more research, I came across this book by Ajahn Amaro:

Inner Listening

I've just started reading it, but it 'sounds' promising :-)

Ah, thank you for showing me, once again, I am not a special snow flake. And thank you all so much for this thread. On my last retreat, where I was working with the jhanas specifically, that high pitched sound began to show me that I was hitting an absorbed state. Not distracting, just a signpost. And my teacher didn't have anything to offer me about it.

When I hit 3rd jhana the sound would kick in..look for visual indicators for the 4th jhana. Thats how it played out for me...useful signposts.
Good Luck,
~D

This website has some common tinnitus sounds that you can play for comparison and it gives the hertz : http://www.ata.org/sounds-of-tinnitus .  Tinnitus seems to be a fancy name for hearing weird monotonous sounds, they don't know much about it and its been assumed that it is due to ear damage, but research suggests the origin of the sound is in the brain, not the ears.  It can be easy to assume that what happens in meditation is special and unique but I suspect that some of this stuff is common in the nonmeditating population as well.  Lots of people have all kinds of 'weird' experiences outside of meditation but many are hesitant to talk about it for fear others will think they are crazy or exagerating. If science doesn't understand something, they tend to give it a name and make it sound like they know about it, even when they know very little, like in the case of tinnitus.

I'd get it arrising right before I went into 1st jhana....and I'm pretty sure it stayed all thru 2-4 too.

Also, I get a slight pressure sensation in my skull. Almost as if wearing a beanie or ski cap...but way more subtle. Any one get that?

Hi, Florian,

Yes, all the time. I'm hearing them this moment, now that you mention it. Often there are many layers of "sound" there, and one of my favorite things to do is take this layered sound and add in the tree frogs and cicadas from outside on a summer night. It is wonderful. I did this a lot in Equanimity.

If you hear ringing while running a hair dryer, however, that's the devil. Run! 

Jenny

Florian!!!  I'm sorry to reply before I read the whole thread, but you made me too excited.  I want to tell you about my experience with 'nada' in deep meditation just a few days ago...  

Every sound (energy radiation) from every event in the whole history of the universe eventually reaches us and interacts via 'nada'.  In this high pitch ringing, you are actually hearing All things!!!  Meditating on 'Nada' with full samyama births the siddhi of (I think it's called) Astral hearing!  In my meditation on Nada, I picked up on sounds that had to have been a mile away.  It was so interesting!  

Something I stumbled upon on wikipedia -
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Reverberation_of_Sound

"that high-pitched tv-tube-like sound?"

I love answering this question, because I asked others about it. 

Now, I hear this sound far more often and for longer duration than before. It occurs whenever my mind is tuned towards inner being. When watching TV or having conversation, it quickly disappear before you realize it. It can also quickly show up when you are alone and is focused inward, particularly during meditation.

I hear it when I am in the hotel  room on business travel, because I dont resort to any kind of entertainment, except for watching DVD movies with my wife for matrimonial harmony only, LOL.

I use it to for mindfulness, awareness, and for insight meditation. I can hear many rising and falling per second, so it is good for that. If I become enlightened, then I may also become a tinnitus person because with silent mind I will hear this all the time. The price of still mind. LOL

​​​​​​​For now, it is a tool. Dont know about when I have a still mind.

James,

Thanks for the info.

Sincerely,
Simon


More info on the cause of the sound from another prspective 
http://zidbits.com/2013/02/what-causes-spontaneous-ringing-in-our-ears/

Thanks John.

Good to know that I dont have tinnitus. I used to want to ask if people with tinnitus ever stop hearing the tone.

​​​​​​​Yes, what I hear goes in and out depending if I am tuned in to myself. They can go away very quickly such as answering a phone call or talking to someone that even in silence I will not hear the tone; however, the second I am mindful such as being in awareness mode I hear it.

Recently found a book that have some chapters about the sound: The Law of Attention: Nada Yoga and the Way of Inner Vigilance

You can read the chapters on google books: https://books.google.pl/books?id=220Uboj5qb8C&pg=PA1&hl=pl&source=gbs_toc_r&cad=4#v=onepage&q&f=false

LTL-FTP so I'm going to jump straight in and risk derailing this superb thread.

I've been meditating on "Inner Light and Sound" on and off since the 1980's, following an initiation into what was pretty much a cult - perfect master type of guru etc, along the lines of Divine Light Mission, Satsang Beas, and others. That blew up in the late '80's due to the usual guru misbehaviour stuff, but left a legacy of a powerful transmission and powerful practices. I left it alone for a long time, although the nada was pretty much always present when I sat and I used it as an indicator that I was on-track, as it were. Recently the group has popped up again, this time without the myriad cult aspects or a guru figure, but now with a hierarchy of 'inner' beings who allegedly manage things instead, and a few enlightened folk who channel them...

Now I  can't really be doing with ascended masters and so on - all far too authoritarian and unverifiable for me, but what intrigues me is the benefit of an energetic transmission (this is done hands-on) that seems to give a boost to the nada, and for many also a boost to the ability to see inner light. A lot of people seem to be having some pretty far out realisations - oneness-unity-bliss-enlightenment - even without any previous meditation experience.

So I'm asking for insights and comments on the idea of adding energy transmission / shaktipat to the practice of nada - is it possible to boost people into jhanas or nimitta experiences in this way, or what might be going on?

Cheers
Rich

Are you talking about Lifewave, and the guru John Yarr? I was part of that cult in the 1980s in the UK. I have been trying to work out what that was all about since then. I have thought that they took samatha meditation to the highest level, but without vipassana they didn't come anywhere close to genuine enlightenment. Now I'm not so sure.

In Buddhist circles, there is a lot of knowledge of inner light called nimitta, but they don't usually talk about the inner sound. That puzzles me.

I didn't know that this group had popped up again. I don't feel happy about that considering what John Yarr got up to.

There is a theory that there are different levels of the inner light and sound. When you first encounter the inner light and sound it's the lowest level that you encounter first. Then after meditating on that for a while you might get to the next level up, then then the next level and so on. Because the first and lowest level is quite close to this physical realm the 'energetic transmission' that you mention can be important in establishing a link to it. It can be a puzzle why if this spiritual force is divine does it seem to work better when there is this physical proximity and hands on. In Lifewave they used to squeeze the eyeballs of the initiates. It's the same with kundalini although kundalini is a different force. You need to establish that link to the lower levels first.

Hi Andrew. Good spot: FWIW I've connected with an outlaw offshoot where John Yarr isn't involved at all. I'm not interested in framing the question in terms of 'Lifewave', but rather from samatha/vipassana angles with the dimesnion of shaktipat added.

I agree with the idea of using the sound current for concentration (merge with it): maybe there's the possibility of using some insight techniques as well, but since it's continuous, 'unstruck', then investigating impermanence may not offer much. Don't know.

Why would you have thought only vipassana offers 'genuine' enlightenment? ISTR suggestion that the Buddha having run through the samatha jhanas on the night of his enlightenment. And what makes you doubt that now?

The Buddhist theory that's found in MCTB by Daniel and elsewhere says that samatha meditation and the jhanas are all very well but even if you get to 8th jhana you're nowhere near to enlightenment. Even 9th jhana (Nirodha Samapatti) isn't enlightenment, and 9th jhana isn't accessible by anyone who hasn't done lots of vipassana.

Vipassana results in the sense of a continuous and permanent self falling away. For a fraction of a second in deep meditation with stream entry and then all the time with enlightenment.

So with John Yarr's methods which are not Buddhist but more to do with Yoga and Advaita Vedanta you would think that the best they could achieve would be 8th jhana (Neither perception nor non-perception). This is what I used to believe. Now I can see that it's not as simple as that.

What puzzled me for a long time was that John Yarr was a big fan of Krishnamurti, even though Krishnamurti was dead against gurus of any kind. There was a story that Yarr sent someone to talk to Krishnamurti and tell him that the new Buddha (Yarr) had arrived. Krishnamurti got angry and asked them to leave, not surprisingly.

Then I found out that Krishnamurti taught a form of meditation. Even though he always said he's not a teacher and he has no method. His method seems a lot like vipassana. In fact, there's a group in Indonesia who are using it as their form of vipassana. So it made me think that maybe Yarr had used this together with nada to get enlightened.

I don't think so now because I've got information from someone on a forum who used to be in Lifewave and says he's enlightened by Yarr's methods. Calls himself iamthat. He didn't know anything about Krishnamurti meditation.

So it's all a bit of a puzzle because both their 'enlightenment' and their second initiation don't seem to fit into the system outlined by Daniel and others such as Jack Kornfield.

so..what points are different and what do you draw from that?

Thanks Andrew for bringing it back to MCTB - I think that's a valuable benchmark.

I'm in loose agreement I think: my current hypothesis is that Light and Sound meditation is samatha using nada as the object of meditation for some of the time, and Light the rest of the time as and when it arises. This would limit attainment to blissful jhana states - particularly as instruction on how to meditate in this path was/is lacking beyond breath 101. But then there's the transmission aspect - the initiations. At 1st initiation it's claimed you're given access to realms 'above the crown'. At 2nd you're taken 'beyond the mind', and 3rd is enlightenment. Each stage occurs due to grace, in those days bestowed by the master. Each of these seems to involve an energy transmission (in-person at 1st)

Leaving aside all the 'grace', 'master' mythos I'm left wondering how the energetics might affect one's ability to enter and abide in jhana states, and indeed whether on initiation there might be what could be called a 'vipassana effect' whereby the 3C's / stream-entry could be triggered - my experience was an immense dropping away of self-identity... hence my original question in this thread.

I don't know either how those states might correspond in MCTB: I'm thinking 2nd initiation == stream entry and enlightnment == 4th jhana. According to MCTB 4th Jhana allows cultivation of siddhis, and certainly there's a fascination in the curent version of the path with channelling.

As for people claiming to be enlightened through this path either with John Yarr or more recently - AFAIK there are hundreds.

I thouhgt this quote of Daniel's from another thread is interesting:

"It is true that, if you can get samatha-first people to get into really strong jhana and then add in a moderate component of vipassana, they can do cool things like nearly totally bypass the harshness of the Dark Night, as they can do it in realms of light, sacred geometry, archetypical landscapes, and the like."

In Lifewave we were told that at initiation we would see the inner light and hear the inner sound. I didn't see or hear that, although obviously if you squeeze someone's eyeballs they see patterns (not recommended). I don't think most people do see or hear anything. If people do see something, it's quite common for them to see a white disk of light with a dark center. You're meant to meditate on this.

If you Google this then there's a site which says the disk can be blue instead of white. Another site, which is Buddhist, says disks can be white, blue or golden.

It's said there are different levels of the inner light and sound. They were quite keen on the teachings of the Theosophical Society, where it is believed that there are different planes of existence. I asked my recent ex-Lifewave contact about this, and he said he thought there were different levels but he never knew which level he was on. So, it's not as if there are several milestones on the path where they can be sure they've got to a particular stage. There is one 'milestone' however and that's called 'second initiation'.

In Lifewave but not in other Sant Mat/Surat Shabd Yoga movements they had 'second initiation' also called 'going beyond form'. This makes me think of the arupa jhanas, the formless jhanas. However, when someone experiences 5th jhana (the Sphere of Infinite Space) from what I've read there are definite characteristics of that jhana where you can be sure this is where you are. Moreover, you wouldn't be able to get to it unless you understood it's characteristics and how to get there.

It seems with second initiation that in the moment it happens you realize that everything you thought you were is not you. It's impossible to become aware of the higher levels of nada with the mind. It's explained that it's not the mind that meditates. You might have thought you were a mind meditating on nada, but really it's a higher consciousness meditating on your mind. You are aware that you are separate from your thoughts.

This is different from Buddhist thinking where there is no higher consciousness.

I think that with first initiation the 'shaktipat' element could be important, in the sense that your guru can transmit this energy to you. But with second initiation you're far away from the physical level of reality so a guru like Yarr or any one of his supposedly enlightened Adepts is not necessary.

Now we come to 'enlightenment'. This is where the inner light and sound switch off, you go beyond them and merge with Brahman or whatever. This of course doesn't make sense according to Buddhist teaching. I'd like to quote from my ex-Lifewave contact:-

"It felt as if the entire range of sound was flowing through my spine, from the deepest sound at the base of my spine, to the finest sound at my throat. My head was empty, beyond all sound, and the energy continued to flow. The light was golden-white and brilliant, and I gazed upon it, every part of me striving to surrender. I had no thought except to lose myself in that light, when suddenly the light dissolved. There was just emptiness. The flow of energy which had been so strong suddenly ceased. Everything was still and peaceful. I sat there for a while, enjoying the stillness, but wondering what had happened to all that energy. Eventually I came out of meditation and turned on the light, as the room was now dark.

I was everywhere. I was the walls, the carpet, the furniture, the space between it all. There was one Being pervading everything, and I was that one Being. My body was just another physical object sitting in this one Being. Nothing limited me, nothing interrupted me, I was complete Being. I went downstairs to make a cup of tea, and I was not moving; instead my body was moving in the stillness that was me.

I woke up the next morning, and I was still everywhere. After some more meditation, I went for a walk outside. I was the pavement and the houses and the trees and the sky and the clouds. I was the cars as they drove through the one Being that was me. I was everyone I saw – we were all physical bodies expressing this one Being. There was nothing in this world except me, and I existed without limits.

And this has been my daily reality since December 1986. It never changes, it never goes away. The mind is still present, with all its limitations. Emotions are still present, with all their highs and lows. My personality is still there, with all its strengths and weaknesses. But behind it all, unchanging, always present, there is limitless Being. It is hard not to take it for granted; I can spend hours absorbed in daily trivia, and then I pause and gaze around me, and I see myself everywhere. For me, this limitless Being is the only true reality of life."

So it looks like a permanent change of consciousness. I would imagine with the jhanas there isn't a permanent change of consciousness. That's another of the things I haven't worked out.

You seem to know a lot about Buddhism, especially Tibetan Buddhism. I would like to ask you if you have heard of a meditation practice that I read about in a book recently. I had never heard of it before. The book is A Hermit in the Himalayas by Paul Brunton, who was not a Buddhist.

The more I think about it the more I think that the 'Second Inititation' of the Lifewave cult is the equivalent of entering the 5th Jhana (the Sphere of Infinite Space). Consider what has been written by someone who was in the cult (iamthat):
The interesting bit is the 'vast void'. From what I have read people entering the 5th jhana, the first of the 'arupa' or formless jhanas, experience this. It would be interesting to know if people following this form of nada meditation then go on to loose this sense of infinite space. When they move up to the next level they no longer sense this vast void. If so it would confirm that 2nd inititation is the same as 5th jhana.

The problem with John Yarr's methods is that without vipassana they will tend to 'cling' to these higher states, which is not beneficial to them. With vipassana they would be able to 'investigate' these states just as people can 'investigate' physical sensations.

Rich LeeLTL-FTP so I'm going to jump straight in and risk derailing this superb thread.

Hi Rich,

I think that you've asked the $64,000 question here ("So I'm asking for insights and comments on the idea of adding energy transmission/shaktipat to the practice of nada - is it possible to boost people into jhanas or nimitta experiences in this way, or what might be going on?").

Given that you've received Initiation but you appear unsure about the answer, I can come up with only three possibilities: -

1. Initiation makes no difference.
2. The person who Initiated you was unqualified.
3. You were not properly prepared for Initiation.

Of these three possibilities, only the last two are likely from my perspective (as someone who was Initiated into anāhata-nāda meditation practice more than 30 years ago).

@DeNada: What has been your experience though meditation over the last 30 years? What stage(s), realisations etc in your system have you achieved / had revealed?

Rich

I experienced various things during the course of my practice of anāhata-nāda meditation, which I could (mis)use to construct a story or a map but I believe that would be a grave disservice to anyone interested in pursuing this practice because stories are not reality and maps are certainly not the territory.

The other reason that I’m not keen to get into this is that it almost invariably leads to the devaluation of individual exploration and self-discovery and the establishment of some sort of cult or hierarchy and I'm of the view that this is not only unnecessary but also highly undesirable.

However, I will state that (from the perspective of duality) there was/is a starting point of Initiation, which probably involved/involves something that could be viewed as a person-to-person transmission. Having said that, this assertion really doesn’t bear close scrutiny because you will almost immediately hit a paradox (e.g. “Who was the first transmitter?” is possibly the most obvious).

There was/is also an end point of perfect nonduality (unio mystica) although there’s another paradox in stating that nonduality is an ending because (hopefully obviously) that could not be the case. So, it might also be described as a beginning or as neither or as both.

I’d also like to add that I consider that it’s probably very worthwhile to spend a bit of time examining the possibility that this “śamatha” practice needs to be tempered with appropriate “vipassanā” practices in order to be integrated – but that the converse may not be the case.

In hindsight, in the interests of a more complete and rounded response, I should probably have also mentioned that the practice of meditation on light and sound is described in detail in the Vijñāna Bhairava Tantra (v. 37-38):

धामान्तःक्षोभसम्भूतसूक्ष्माग्नितिलकाकृतिम् ।
बिन्दुं शिखान्ते हृदये लयान्ते ध्यायतो लयः॥ ३७॥
अनाहते पात्रकर्णेऽभग्नशब्दे सरिद्द्रुते ।
शब्दब्रह्मणि निष्णातः परम् ब्रह्माधिगच्चति ॥ ३८॥

and that there's no mention that Initiation is necessary (although it's repeatedly stressed throughout the text that Self-realisation is reliant on Grace).

Apologies for the omission.

Does this apparent attempt to paraphrase something that you claim I said constitute a genuine question (i.e. are you asking me if I consider that Grace (cf. "grace") is connected to compassion and/or if I consider Grace to be a more a "blessing" than compassion?)?

If that's the case, I'm happy to clarify your misunderstanding. If it's not, I've no interest whatsoever, because I was taught that:

इत्येतत्कथितं देवि परमामृतम् उत्तमम् ।
एतच् च नैव कस्यापि प्रकाश्यं तु कदाचन ॥ १५७॥
परशिष्ये खले क्रूरे अभक्ते गुरुपादयोः ।
निर्विकल्पमतीनां तु वीराणाम् उन्नतात्मनाम् ॥ १५८॥
भक्तानां गुरुवर्गस्य दातव्यं निर्विशङ्कया ।

Lots of bad guesses.

To correct a few of your misconceptions and misrepresentations:

Although, as it happens, John Yarr was one of many gurus I've encountered in my lifetime, he was never my teacher nor, in my carefully considered and informed opinion, was he the source of any authentic transmission or teaching, let alone Grace.

Regarding Grace: obviously, Grace (by definition) isn't mediated.

Regarding the source of what I know about anāhata-nāda meditation: happily, I've encountered a few genuinely enlightened and compassionate teachers (of authentic traditional practices), including the one who taught me the anāhata-nāda meditation practice(s) (as detailed in the Vijñāna Bhairava Tantra, v. 37-38).

Hope that helps?

You guys should [url=]get a room.



Rich x

'cos there seems to be some kind of charge/chemistry between you, and maybe there's a happy ending to be found.

Otherwise this might help: https://youtu.be/IhJQp-q1Y1s

Rich x

Thanks for the feedback.

Is this the group with whom you're currently involved?:

lightwavemeditation.com
lightandsoundmeditation.com

OK, here goes then...

Thanks for replying, even though you're obviously wound up.

I wrote the stuff below the line first, and decided to leave it in as part of the conversation and to scope where I'm at (it's not where Witek is at).

The part of your response that *really* interests me however is where you say "a natural progression of using the inner spontaneous sounds, in a particular way, combined with well-known breath practices, led to actual visionary experiences". This suggests to me that you consider the channels/winds experiences (available without squeezing eyeballs btw) are not valid, and that you're somehow 'outside of' your biophysical/energetic system when those visionary experiences are occuring. Given that many Hindu, Tibetan and Taoist practices still major on channels/winds (by whatever name) & presumably consider them worthwhile, and the question of just how one perceives(?) extra-sensory visionary experience... can I ask you to please unpack those aspects a little more for me?

Best
Rich

=====================================================================
Kindergarten?! I was trying to gently undermine the uh, *unhelpful*, snarkiness between the two of you - ISTM you're pretty wrapped up in some tight mental/emotional loops. I haven't yet seen the Insight Timer threads, so maybe you're justified. But, you know, humour.

I'm not particularly interested in (his) *continual* reference back to scripture. I'm interested in direct experience, and while the experience of folk 00's/'000's years ago is interesting, it seems to snag people (like us?) more than it liberates.

I find the term 'grace' annoying: usually a way of asserting authority and control when used in the sort of context we're in. In Witek's (John Yarr/Lifewave) context it was a battering ram of 'shut up and don't be difficult'. OTOH I don't agree that shit happens (in the context of awakening): I think there's plenty to do that's clear and repeatable that brings about definite results. Moreso in the world of Theravada/mindfulness and non-dual advaita techniques, but I suspect that's more to do with the fact that the guru&grace mythology around Light&Sound practices, as well as it's lesser popularity in places like Boulder , has deterred genuine investigation and systematisation, than to a natural impenetrability of the mode.

Your answer about energy transmissions *seems* definitive, and your list of experiences is indeed IMHO related to winds/channels. However you've omitted to consider the experiences of those 'sat down' who have had experiences during that 'period of grace(!)' which they describe as vastly different from the ordinary visuals, and lasting (indeed affecting them in wider ways than mere visuals). Don't get hung up on squeezing the eyeballs - even JY was known to wonder why people were still doing that. It is true that a fair number of people in JY's system & its' recent offshoot (it must be in the hundreds by now) have had tremendous and lasting classical enlightenment 'experience' and I don't think that should be dismissed as glibly as you can dismiss the assistive techniques.

I'd make no suggestion that your visionary experiences are invalid in any way: that's a feature of Witek's peculiar inversion.

I'd also agree that precision is important, however when I'm reaching to describe or ask about something I don't already assume I know about that can be difficult, and I for one don't have the scriptural background nor am I aligned with any particular school. I too am irritated by Witek's claim to knowledge (superiority) but subsequently avoiding actually saying anything about his own results.

Rich,

I'll pick up the parts of your post that concern the ongoing misconceptions and misrepresentations about me and and about my position at my convenience (which will be after I consider that  you and James have had an appropriate amount of time to manage your own process(es) and to resolve whatever it is that's triggering both of you).

Perhaps you both just need to slag me off a bit more?

If so, I'll just wait until I'm fairly sure that you've both burnt yourselves out before I set this aspect of the record straight.

Dude you're representing yourself very clearly indeed. Unfortunately it seems mostly to consist of dodging between appeals to authority, retreat to scripture, and (despite dangling teasers) a refusal to describe your own attainment using the methods we're really, *really* interested in. What's triggering me is this combination of superiority and evasiveness. It's *enormously* familiar from the cult background we've unfortunately slipped into discussing and which I guess you're still conditioned by, and sheds no light on what's really going on with the practices. Unless you're willing to be authentic I'm very happy for you to not bother setting anything straight.

Love and hugs
Rich x

As I said:

I'll pick up the parts of your post* that concern the ongoing misconceptions and misrepresentations about me and and about my position at my convenience (which will be after I consider that  you and James have had an appropriate amount of time to manage your own process(es) and to resolve whatever it is that's triggering both of you).

Perhaps you both just need to slag me off a bit more?

If so, I'll just wait until I'm fairly sure that you've both burnt yourselves out before I set this aspect of the record straight.

* or posts

It's a pity that this thread has petered out because I think there's a lot more that can be said about Nada. One thing is how powerful initiations can be for some people but don't have any effect on others. Another aspect is how when you turn your attention to the inner light it often disappears. Another aspect is the relation of the inner light to the inner sound.

There is indeed a lot that could be discussed that might be extremely helpful to anyone who's interested in anahatanada yoga, which is why I joined this thread in the first place.

Your first point is the one that particularly interests me given the inherent and apparently ongoing problems that I've witnessed associated with obtaining Initiation from those unqualified to offer it.

Great questions Andrew.
I've no answers, but I'd like to extend your first question to consider how it is that people initiated by the same person within a few _seconds_ of each other can have such different experiences... I've experienced this several times, and the initiator has said they're doing the exact same thing with each initiate. And indeed there are currently claims of people running through the light/sound stages in just a few hours or days while the people sat next to them are left wondering what they're missing. Does the initiation actually change, is it valid or invalid? I'm not even sure that's a decent question to be asking. We (initiates) are also not all the same, and we tend not to do much in the way of preparation for initiation. So for example Mo Farah is built to run long-distance, he's genetically gifted, and has trained intensely over many years to get to where he is. Somebody either not so gifted or untrained isn't going to challenge Mo in a 10k.

The experience of light disappearing reminds me of the nimitta (sign) in (the Vishuddhimagga version of) samatha jhana. I'm no expert, but I understand that when it appears the meditator is advised to be very relaxed, not 'chase' it and so on. In original sutrayana (according to Leigh Brasington, at least), the nimitta wasn't a pre-requisite for progression, and he maintains that many experiences, even a rumbling stomach, were a 'sign' - just something to be noted. Some of the shifting lights referred to in earlier posts have been linked to brain activity (I think this book https://www.amazon.co.uk/gp/product/B004SHU86W/ref=oh_aui_d_detailpage_o04_?ie=UTF8&psc=1 has been linked earlier too)

Rich

Perhaps it would be more appropriate to put your unanswered questions directly to your cult's leaders/"Initiators"?

There are two questions to do with initiations. One is about how one person might be able to provide a better experience for initiates than another person. The second question is why some initiates have powerful experiences and some experience nothing even if they are initiated by the same person.

I was interested in meditation as a teenager but didn't get very far with it. I found out about a movement called Subud, where they seem to get the same effects as meditation but without any meditation technique. In Subud groups they have spontaneous movements and spontaneous vocalizations which are an outward manifestation of an inner spiritual process. They have an initiation which they call the 'opening'. At my opening I didn't feel anything, and I never felt anything in Subud groups, but a few weeks after my opening another young man got opened.

The second the opening occurred he started screaming and rolling around on the floor. He screamed so much that I thought someone outside the building would hear and call the police. Later I learned that he had had a lot of Primal Therapy before he had come to Subud. What seems to be going on in Subud is that it's all to do with kundalini phenomena. Nothing to do with chakra visualizations or anything like that, it's as if a higher intelligence can take control of the body and the first thing it does is release stress.

If your usual mode of releasing stress is crying, then you might cry. If it is laughing, then you might laugh. If it is through having a primal then I guess you would primal. These spontaneous movements/vocalizations are called 'kriyas' though Subud people don't know anything about kundalini, they think this is unique to their movement.

Only recently have I found out that loads of people don't have any of these things. Not the movements/vocalizations, or the inner spiritual changes. The author of this page writes that some people have under-sensitivity, nothing happens to them. Others have hyper-sensitivity, which means they have difficulty switching the process off.

I have had other initiations into other movements where nothing happened. In Lifewave, someone said that certain types of people just don't get anywhere. People who are more inside their heads, people who prefer thinking to talking, people who would prefer to spend an evening reading a book than at a party, they just don't seem to become aware of this inner light and sound. Maybe it's something to do with the autistic spectrum. People's brains work differently.

As to the other question about people giving initiations, whether some are better than others, I could say something about that, but I've said enough for now.

[quote=]Perhaps it would be more appropriate to put your unanswered questions directly to your cult's leaders/"Initiators"?

I've asked. However some have a position they choose to protect. Of those who are willing: they simply don't know. Their best shot is usually to defer to a discarnate 'spiritual hierarchy' responsible for the energy - something I can't verify, and which unfortunately takes us right back to cultish authority and 'salvation through grace'. These people often have dedicated themselves to the one path without any comparative understanding of other approaches, so from my pov it's a reasonable idea to ask in an open forum where people _have_ wide and deep understandings.

On the subject of 'spiritual hierarchy' I've found it relatively easy to get to states where information seems to be available about, say, plants, or some healing modality for a sick person. I understand also that there are many buddhist teachings discovered in meditation or in dream states that have become well accepted. So there's nothing in that respect that I can't deal with - it's the use of such as an authority that *must* be accepted, and that certain people in the group, by virtue of their position, are the mediators of 'genuine' messages from the hierarchy

Lots of people said that. IMO mostly it was code for "shut up and stop asking questions". A more devotional/heart approach is of course a valid path, but it also suits the culture of this kind of group.

Hi panaesthesia.

You stated previously:


Your desciption of visual experiences is not the actual experience of (all) initiates into L&S. My personal experience has been different. So I don't think your answer can be taken as definitive.

There's a reason I'm referring back to this:



The question I was interested in is how you're distinguishing between 'true' visions and (mere) 'wind' visions, and not how you distinguish between sensory and extra-sensory. 'Wind' visions are already extra-sensory, as they don't appear to have an external origin in the same way as the guitar string does. You've dismissed 'wind' visions and said that you have explored other techniques of getting to 'true' visions, yet the mechanism is somehow not different - I'd love to know more.

Regarding your book quote about sound/inner sound... I thoroughly disagree with almost the entire quote, from both materialistic and idealistic positions. I think if terms were established clearly then the first few paras would fall apart. The killer problem though is that the author devotes a number of paras to establishing that a chain/sequence of events must all be present for experience of sound to occur. S/he then swivels in the final para to an opposite assertion that there can be an experience of sound *not* dependent on that chain. That's logically inconsistent and provides no explanation of how the 'inner' sounds come about.

Of course, we already agree that , so I'm not sure why you included the quote anyway. You've already gone further in asserting there's some special 'true' inner experience distinct from (mere) winds. So while I appreciate your reply, you haven't elaborated on that distinction.


The Tibetan text is a cracker. I have absolutely no chance of comprehending it: Malcolm on dharmawheel says: "This tantra is a sprawling text that cannot be correctly read without the aid of a commentary. It presents the entire path of Dzogchen, embryology, cosmology, etc. Even if one were to learn Tibetan, a classical education in the five classical sciences is a requirement to actually understand any of these texts". That opinion is backed up by descriptions on the various translation project websites. So this isn't a help to me in understanding how 'wind' and 'true' visions differ. I did try registering on the french forum, but the admin deleted my account request immediately.

Hiya! Thanks for your reply.

You were definitive in your statement that shaktipat/initiation cannot give a boost, and you characterised such experiences as identical to mere eyeball-squeezing. That is incorrect based on mine and many others' experiences.

You distinguished them from 'wind'-type experiences, which you dismissed. So you seem to be of the view that they are more valid, deeper, _truer_? Happy to replace the word 'true' with 'actual' if that makes it easier for you to say something directly about inner spontaneous sound as distinct from 'wind'-type experience.

So I'd like to get a better grasp of those experiences you're describing as 'without a because', but you're continuing to only describe those *with* a because.

The inner experiences resulting from the initiations I've been talking about are absolutely not of the same coarse nature as those daft kundalini bounce-around-the-room-and-emote self-expressions you mention. Andrew has done us a disservice by mentioning Subud.

You're misrepresenting my point and likely patronising me, but I'm not willing to take a big tangent to pick apart the quote from your book. The one thing I *do* agree with from the quote is the causal chain dependence, from the materialist pov. Right now I don't know whether I agree with the distinction between caused and uncaused sounds and visions: you're claiming expertise, I'm willing to cede you that expertise, and I'm asking if there's anything you can say directly about those uncaused experiences. But you know, I've asked several times now, and you're insistent on comparing your own 'inner, uncaused' experience with eyeball-squeezing, rough kundalini type side effects, and newage self-expression rather than the more subtle experiences I've described. Do you appreciate that I'm trying to state a distinction?

I definitely have a smaller brain than Malcolm: I find Dzogchen teachings obscure, and I suspect they are intentionally so. I tried to register on the website but the admin deleted it immediately, but not before sending my password in plain text via email Obstacles all round as far as Dzogchen is concerned. Is there any chance you would PM me the extract you're referring to? Can you say something about why you think Dzogchen is relevant here?

Thanks again!
Rich

Hi, interesting discussion.

I wonder whether the inner and outer sounds can be reconciled by considering (i) that both are likely outputs of the audtory cortex, but (ii) they arise from different inputs.  That is, the outer sound arises from the auditory cortext acting on inputs from the ear,  while the inner sound arises from the auditory cortex acting on signals that have spread from other parts the brain.  I think in Buddhist terms this would be described as sound consciousness arising from either internal or external sense bases.

Of course, we don't understand that much about brain structures, so the auditory cortex may not be the whole story.  But the logic should hold even if other brain structures are involved.

Malcolm (but not that Malcolm)

And you called _me_ out for kindergarten tactics! I've tried really hard here, and you're refusing to engage.

Reluctantly, I don't believe you've got anything. You're still avoiding the questions, choosing to be obscurist, arrogant, 'mysterious', manipulative at every turn, as if your fake inscrutability indicated some insight. I don't think you've taken your own practices beyond an ego-sourced belief that you're deeper than incidental wind/lung experiences, and you're unable to recognise the difference between your claimed 'more actual' experience and any other.

Malcom Tucker would have more apposite response.

I'm with you on this. Maybe these internally arising sounds are in the end just (particulary interesting) objects for meditation.Do you think they can be considered more valuable than simple anapanasati?

Hi, just returning to this point ... I'm taken with Jeffrey Martin's view that different meditation techniques suit different people, so Nada might be better for some than others.

But I think it is possible that Nada may offer something more than just a typical meditation object.  Assuming the frequencies result from other brain activities spilling into the auditory cortext, nada may offer access to understanding and modifying these brain activities. Now I am no meditation master, and this is purely speculative; however, the possibilitiy inclines me to listen seriously those claiming progress from observing nada.

I think part of the problem is that prior meditation practitioners have developed their own metaphors to describe some of the realities they experience. To a modern western scientific mind, these metaphors can seem absurd.  But actually, our western scientific concepts are just metaphors too ('memory activation', 'hearing', 'velocity', 'temperature', 'oxygenation') - none directly describe reality as it is.  So I think we need to be careful about throwing out unfashionable metaphors when they are accompanied by a body of practice and knowledge that seem to lead to repeatable results. It's worth trying to understand them, and maybe translate them into modern terms.

Peace.  Malcolm W.

The reason why I wrote about my experiences in Subud is to illustrate the extreme differences between people in response to initiations. That was the subject of my post. I wasn't implying an equivalence between Primal Therapy, Subud, and meditating on the higher levels of Inner Light and Sound.

Neither Primal Therapy nor Subud are trivial, as you think they are. Both in their own way provide emotional healing which is an important and usually neglected part of spiritual growth. I believe there are three aspects to spiritual development: awareness of higher levels of reality, overcoming the illusion of self, and emotional healing. The first can be achieved by samatha meditation with the resulting jhanas and with Inner Light and Sound meditation. The second can be achieved by vipassana meditation. The third is something that seems of little interest to the MCTB community but if you read the books of Jack Kornfield he has more to say about it.

These three aspects complement each other, and progress in one of them can assist in progress with the others. If someone is only interested in the first of these then they have misunderstood what the spiritual path is all about. It's not about escaping into higher levels of reality. It's about being in this level of reality in this body.

The spontaneous movements and vocalizations that occur in Subud and some other movements are an outward manifestation of an inner spiritual process, as I was keen to point out in my post. People shouldn't get hung up about these outward manifestations. It seems to me that Subud can provide all three of the aspects of spiritual development I mentioned above, but because they don't have any systematic methods they don't get very far in any of them.

When people go on a retreat to learn vipassana they often experience kundalini phenomena including spontaneous movements (kriyas). They can also experience Inner Light. There must be a reason for that. Neither are necessary for either samatha or vipassana meditation but it seems they have some value. Jack Kornfield wrote that the spontaneous movements are 'simply what happens when the energy being generated in our practice encounters blocks and tightness where it cannot flow'. I think this is partly true, but they also bring about stress release and some emotional healing.

Kriyas might seem random and uncontrolled, but they are not. They are not controlled by the conscious mind but by an inner intelligence. One person on a Goenka retreat put it this way "By the seventh day, I had an experience where I felt like a higher power was directing my body around". Kriyas may seem 'coarse' manifestations, but my observations in Subud are that the initial stress-release phase dies away to be replaced by something much subtler. No longer laughing or crying, but something more like singing or chanting. No longer seemingly violent movements, but something more like dancing or ritual. Why this is and what the inner spiritual states accompanying these outer manifestations are like I can only guess at.

Nice post. Thanks Andrew for taking the time to respond. I made my clumsy point because I thought the mention of spontaneous emoting/movement redirected our friend away from the idea of discriminating between subtle and very-subtle experience. Didn't work

I do agree that emotional healing or integration is important. You can see though from Daniel Ingram on video, for example, that he has huge compassion, while the techical path-working material doesn't emphasise it. I'm not convinced that spontaneous movement is too helpful though. I don't know much about Subud, but I've seen lots in qigong variants, some Osho stuff, and even 5-Rhythms. My observation on *really* limited data is that it doesn't go anywhere - you'll see the same people rolling around and screaming on the floor every time, but over time they just keep on with the same stuff. I'll occasionally slip into a bit of it, but then a sense of release and it's over. I'm down on traditional therapy as well - too often people just go through more detailed versions of their stuff. Maybe wrongly, and maybe saying more about my own stuff, but I want any practice to develop somehow. If I were having the same result every time from my mediation 5 years on, say, I'd be concerned. I want the HEALING!


[edited for monkey-finger]

It's rare to see people in Subud rolling on the floor and screaming. I've never seen that apart from this one young man who was initiated soon after I was. When people have a primal, they are re-living a past trauma. They have the memory of the event in vivid detail, and all of the emotions too. It's a very profound experience and it's not something people can mimic just to see what it's like.

The Subud latihan is different, but again people might think they can mimic it just to see what it's like. That's not the real thing though. I think there is some emotional healing in Subud but they don't get very far.

I've just been reading the Encyclopedia of New Religions: New Religious Movements, Sects and Alternative Spiritualities. There are other books like this, but this is the only one as far as I know that has an entry for Lifewave. It also has an entry for the Divine Light Mission, under their new name Elan Vital. It also has an entry for the Radhasoami movement from which DLM came. They all meditate on the Inner Light and Sound (Nada).

The entry for Lifewave says that former members started up a new movement in Leeds called The Path. I know that Yarr was living in Leeds, so I'm sure he was behind it, with his friend Carolyn Elliot. In the entry it says they never had more than 500 followers.

So many leaders of 'new religions' have been exploitative, I've been reading recently. In Buddhism, there's the Triratna movement and the New Kadampa Tradition. In the Radhasoami movement there was Thakar Singh. People have been killed in India rioting over the rape conviction of Ram Rahim Singh. I'd never heard of him, he's not part of the Radhasoami tradition.

This covered most of it:

https://www.dharmaoverground.org/discussion/-/message_boards/view_message/6535799#_19_message_6535799
https://www.dharmaoverground.org/discussion/-/message_boards/view_message/6571018#_19_message_6581123

Regarding the Vijñāna Bhairava Tantra: In fact, it's a meditation instruction manual (which also opens with a précis of the clearest and simplest map that you're ever likely to encounter), however, I think that it's best to leave you both to investigate that aspect for yourselves.

=============================================================================================================

For anyone wanting to pursue an informed discussion, The Spiritual Seeker’s Essential Guide to Sanskrit by Dennis Waite (©2003) might be useful if you can locate a copy:

https://www.indiadivine.org/content/topic/1056266-introduction-to-sanskrit/?tab=comments#comment-5242432
https://web.archive.org/web/20040111020624fw_/http://freespace.virgin.net:80/dennis.waite/advaita/sanskrit_extract.htm



Alternatively, he later published an updated version: Sanskrit for Seekers...

@DeNada

So in response to my complaint that you avoid talking about your own insights, run to scripture, and appeal to authority you're now suggesting I learn a new language and *then* spend my time buried in scripture! The links to other threads seem random at best and will take me more time to follow up their wild geese. Studying the Vijñāna Bhairava Tantra's 112 meditation methods will waste plenty of time too! 

I've been trying to pursue an informed discussion. However your interpretation of that is to be able to quote chapter and verse whereas mine is to ask what you've realised and how. Your actual contribution once more is to propose a course of action that will take me away from practice, away from realisation, and further down the rabbit-hole of intellectual white men arguing abstruse academic points. If you think you're helping let me tell you you're not, but actually I think you know just what you're doing and you're one of those guys who just enjoys messing with folks' heads. Well I'm not going to fetch you a left-handed screwdriver or a tin of tartan paint, thanks very much.

The Path of the intellect certainly isn't for everyone Rich.

As you've got nowhere with anahatanada yoga after some 30-years of practice, I pointed out what should be obvious to you by now (that it doesn't work for everyone either).

I just used the Vijñāna Bhairava Tantra to illustrate that:

1. the practice should not be fetishised as The Best Way (let alone as The Only Way).
2. there are lots of other valid practices available.
3. there's an incredibly simple map.
4. there are also clear and sensible suggestion given about how to decide whether or not to teach a particular individual anything at all.

Patronising much?

IMHO "the Path of the intellect" has serious pitfalls, some of which you may have come across.

Still not willing to share your practices or realisations I see.

On a scale of 1 to 10?

Ok,
 lots of chat here but little direct experience of telling what has been learned from exploring the nada sound.
If anyone has actually explored some of the characteristics that Daniel  mentions above, please speak from your direct experience and tell us what is what.

I've listened to the nada sound over the years and find it facinating that the ability to focus in on different tones has increased. I tend to work up to the highest tones I can hear as an exersize for fun. Has anyone found an actual use for the nada sound outside of it being just another sensation to explore? Is it a tuning fork for focusing in to something? If so What?
Thanks,
~D

I've been using the sound as my main object for a couple months now. And I just got off a week long retreat where I used the sound. I actually wore earmuffs to block out all external noise during most of my sits. 

First thing is that the sound gets really loud. By the end of the retreat it got to the point where it felt like putting the earmuffs on was much nosier than taking them off. I like this effect because it makes concentration pretty easy. An analogy I kept thinking of was like cutting logs with a fresh chain on your chain saw. Once the blade enters the wood it kind of gets "sucked" into the log and there is little effort needed to finish the cut. During good practice sessions I found this was the case with the nada. 

I found that the time of day made a lot of difference in how pleasing the sound was. During the day I felt like the sound conglomerated into a ball and was very hard to split up into separate tones. This left me with no option but to listen to the lowest common denominator of sound, which was usually unpleasant and occasionally hellish. In contrast during the nighttime and early mornings the sound was usually very nice to me. As proscribed in Michael Edward Salim's "Law of Attention", the sound climbs the ladder of tonality getting higher in pitch and faster in vibration. When the sound was cooporating it was very easy to choose any number of tones to listen to. From here one can choose to stay with one tone and see what that has to offer. Usually what will happen is a new and higher tone will seemingly "pop" out of the previous tone and then one can choose to listen to the new tone and try and stablize it. This is mostly what I did. 

Things I wonder about: 

- At certain points I litterally had 6 or 7 different tones to choose from. Edward Michael Salim recommends the subtler and higher pitched tones to draw the meditator to higher heights within himself. I found this to be the case but also ran into some struggles. In particular once your up at a certain height, it can be difficult to balance a tone because these tones are subtle and juggling them requires really solid concentration. Furthermore once your at these heights the sounds tend to jump around more easily than the lower tones. This made them tough to really investigate in terms of vibrational speed. One thing I look to improve upon is stablazing concentration on these higher pitches. 

I'll leave this here for now and hopefully unpack some more tomorrow. 

Moving further with the sound... 

In Edward Michael Salim's "Law of Attention" he advises the meditator to be aware of where the sound brings your attention in the body. This I find to be of particular interest. First, it's relatively challenging to do this because so often we associate hearing with the ear. So when I listen to the sound I will instinctively use the ear. With the silence the case may be that the sound, although perceived mainly through the ear is actually emanating from other points of the body. 

For instance I have a lot of stress in my right hand through my right shoulder and up through my jaw. When I listen to the sound some tones will lead me to the vibration in my hand and other sounds will like me to the vibrations in my shoulder. I've found that if I really investigate this relationship then I am more able to listen to the sound while "being" my hand or shoulder. To put this another way, it's quite difficult to go back and forth between listening through the ear while paying attention to its effect on the corresponding body part. With good practice I found this difficulty lessens and the two become more or less one. 

This potentially has some interesting conclusions. First is that the sound could be seen as healing agent. I say this because if it is true that the sound corresponds with particular body parts, as you investigate the vibrations of the sound and they begin to break apart, so to will the vibrations in the body break apart. Second is that this is useful for vipassana because the sound is extremely stable and easy to investigate. Therefore if we investigate the sound we are at the same time investigating stress in the body. And as it goes, the subtler and faster the vibrations, the more stress we're able to burn up. 

In some ways this is why I feel like the nada is touted so highly in a lot of ancient texts/mystics. It appears that at it's finest, the nada's very essence is to hunt for dukkha and all the meditator has to do is ride the wave. We could take this further and begin to go along the lines of the nada being a manifestion of OM and/or light itself. 

http://pureenergymeditation.com/about/index.php

Hi Florian !

Do you fb ? Can we talk dhamma there ? Or just here only ?

Just to add some nuances, I’m autistic and a reader and I have both inner light and inner sound. They both developed very fast. I wouldn’t say that I’m inside my head, though.

Wanted to bump this thread -- have been having an issue where I can't shut the nada out in the slightest after discovering it if there is any degree of outer or inner silence.  The sounds I attribute to chakras are pretty persistent and observable even when I'm in "ego mind" but the energetic higher frequency stuff follows with any degree of "quiet mind".  It's put a severe damper on my mantra and yoga nidra practice, as well as most other techniques.

Additionally, and maybe more imporantly -- this has made sleep problematic because aside from the sound being an issue, the energetic effects keep me awake until I somehow pass out hours later or as I've been doing for the past week -- applying liberal booze to reach pass out status.  Not ideal for many reasons. 

I just ordered Ajahn Sumado's book mentioned earlier in this thread, and have read a few other books on the topic which made me realize once I'd focused a slight bit on my lower-frequency (and ignorable) tinnitus following an 'awakening' that I was observing 'nada' sounds .  I'm curious if anyone has had luck dealing with it being this pervasive.  

I had a period of very loud nada sound together with the feeling of a high pressure of tiny champagne bubbles throughout my body. Unlike you, I enjoyed it and I kind of miss it (but I don’t miss the muscle pain that was involved when this flow perceivably stagnated). It passed away all by itself, or maybe it was due to another fruition. Hm, probably. Anyway, since then, I don’t feel like there are that strong boundaries or membranes separating ”me” from ”the world”. The bubbles pass right through me without resistence, so there is no build-up of pressure. I don’t know if what you are experiencing is similar, but I would guess that the loud sound will pass away as the separation decreases further.

Oh, and yeah, I was being kept awake due to energetic stuff too. I surrendered to it, and that made very interesting things happen. Some weird jhanic factors that turned my senses inside out. It was weird and almost violent but I loved it.

That's nearly always the A&P. Classic.

It was the review phase A&P:s, but I also tended to go through something similar for a brief period during EQ, with much broader focus than during A&P. I have forgotten, is there an A&P-like subnana to equanimity?

And the periods of ”stagnation” were review phase dukkha nanas. Those were painful but luckily very short.

Actually I had the nada sound and the champagne bubbles in high equanimity every time before stream entry, as I was working with Michael Taft on impermanence. Visuals were also a significant part of it. 

Was this actually intended to be helpful?

The difference is that in A&P there’s an upward movement, but in EQ the bubbles expand and burst in place or move out through the pores in random directions.