Hi, I'm after some advice please.

My history with meditation is very patchy and amateurish.  Nothing much to say on that front.  My issue is that I seem to have a strong influence on others and it's causing problems.  The influence is not through speech or behaviour - it seems 'energetic' for want of a better word.  I need to stop it.

On the positive front, I can use this influence to do things like healing and a few other cool tricks.  But for the past few years I've had constant, terrible pain in my thoracic region (no treatment helps) making me extremely miserable and irritable.  My vibe is affecting others at a level that is way beyond what I'd expect.  It's hard to explain all the instances that occur on a daily basis, but as an example, I can be standing behind someone in a queue and they'll start figetting and becoming irritable then turning around and glaring at me.

Occasionally people close to me will see an example of this reaction in members of the public and they'll say to me "Why was that person so rude to you?  That was so weird!  What did you say to him?".  They think there's something I must have said or done to trigger it, but no, that's not how it works.  I just behave normally towards people.    

As mentioned above, it goes both ways.  When I'm happy and healthy, strangers will beam a big smile and say hello to me on the street.  This is not normal if you live in a big city.  It's nice, but it's not normal.  Or they'll pass me by, smile and say "thank you!".  Thank you?  For what? 

But anyway, the problem is this pain is making me miserable, and it's having the most extraordinary effect on others.  It seems like nothing will stop the pain, but is there a way to stop the effect on others?  That's my issue.  Is there some sort of practice I can do?

Thanks for reading and any help.

PS. I understand no one likes to be around others who are miserable.  I'm talking about something entirely beyond that.

If I understand it correctly you think you are influencing people psychically?

If that is what you are asking, I would recommend you try asking over in this facebook group:

https://www.facebook.com/groups/evidenceforafterlife/

In your post mention that your question is off topic but you think the people there might be able to help you.

My advice would be to find someone who you know, who is willing to help you, and then try to do it to them intentionally. Once you can do it intentionally, you will know how you are doing it and you will be able to stop doing unintentionally.

Regarding the pain, I find that when I am in pain, meditation that quiets the mental chatter can lift my mood and when that happens I get interested in doing things and I don't notice it as much. The physical part is lot easier to bear without the mental part (fear, worry, anger, regret - associated with the pain). 
 
Good luck.

Hi Jim,

Yes, that's it, thanks for understanding.

Whilst I try to avoid Facebook, I like your idea about working with someone.

On further reflection, I know what it is.  I resent the fact that people judge me for being miserable with this pain.  In reponse to this judgement, my energy (I'll just call it that, I don't know what it is) puts out something, people feel it and want to remove or destroy it.  They find the source and they do something to hurt me.

So the thing I'm doing is I'm trying to protect myself from their judgement with a kind of prickly energetic armour.  It's anger, I guess.  I don't direct it at anyone, but it seems like most people feel it, even at a distance and even without seeing me.  The thing is, if I don't create this 'armour', I'm too vulnerable to everyone's judgement.

Have you seen a good therapist?

+1

Not what I'd consider a good one.  My impression of psychologists is that they often have psychological problems themselves.  Maybe I'm projecting - it's possible.  I also wonder... would the world have a mental health crisis if psychology actually worked? 

I've tried CBT and it has a positive effect, but only so long as I work at it constantly, ie. every minute must be dedicated to it, or I slip back.  It creates a lot of self-centredness because I'm always focussing on my thoughts or behaviours.  It does relieve the problem a bit, so I might go back and do it as a short term solution.

Hoping more people can chip in with suggestions please.  So that I have options.  It's all appreciated.

Find a really good therapist try again.

Really good ones have really long waiting lists.

Do you mean try CBT again or something else?

I meant this: Find a good therapist (get recommendations), then meet with that person and describe your problem to them. Let the therapist help you figure out what's happening with you and help you find appropriate and effective treatment. Also, try to stop thinking of reasons why pursuing this course won't work for you. That's self-defeating.

 I agree with Chris that a therapist is best because they can see your specific needs. Especially, if CBT helped a bit in the past. That means that the problem is helped by training/therapy, which is a very good thing to know. Getting just the right training dialed in may take some trial and error. 

I'm a huge fan of Albert Ellis, and especially his book "How To Stubbornly Refuse To Make Yourself Miserable About Anything – Yes, Anything!" which is mostly an easy-to-read explanation of REBT (Rational-Emotive Therapy) -- a type of CBT, focused on emotional reactions. I read Ellis before I started meditating and when I started to learn about the principles of Buddhism I thought, "Wow, this is just the kind of stuff that Ellis said." I actually read an academic paper that tried to answer the question of whether Ellis' approach was Buddhist and the paper mentioned that it seems Ellis didn't have any exposure to Buddhism or meditation, but there are a lot of overlaps. Maybe because both Ellis and the Buddha were rationalists. 

Another thing you could look into/talk over with a service provider, is ways of boosting your mood. Physically discomfort often lowers our mood and having a lower mood makes physical discomfort worse. Better mood also makes it easier to do the things that further improve your quality of life. It's a virtuous circle. Mood boosters include things like exercise (more effective than almost any prescription drug), socializing, getting out in nature, and setting aside time to do nice things for ourselves. (a bubble bath, listening to a whole album on headphones, making a cake).

At some point, meditation might be helpful too, but I think it is often most effective when we are feeling strong and stable. 
 

Not what I'd consider a good one.  My impression of psychologists is that they often have psychological problems themselves.  Maybe I'm projecting - it's possible.  I also wonder... would the world have a mental health crisis if psychology actually worked? 

I've tried CBT and it has a positive effect, but only so long as I work at it constantly, ie. every minute must be dedicated to it, or I slip back.  It creates a lot of self-centredness because I'm always focussing on my thoughts or behaviours.  It does relieve the problem a bit, so I might go back and do it as a short term solution.

Hoping more people can chip in with suggestions please.  So that I have options.  It's all appreciated.



     I was goingto reply to chris's "have you seen  a good therapist" by offering my opinion that 

1. there is no such thing as a good therapist 

and 

2. Any friend who tells you that you should see a therapist is not your friend and is simply avoiding responsibility and empathy and compassion

but I knew it would piss hom off.  You, however, are dealing with with your rage and so may be able to understand the real issue.

   Therapists make a living from your trauma, and have self esteem issues themselves. Invariably they got into the business, as do spiritual teachers, because they had problems themselves and in the process of sorting them out thought they became so good at it they could sell ther skills for fame and gain. Like divorced people who set up as marriage counselors (and hit on their clients). Druggies currently off drugs who set up as addiction counselors. Anger management counselors who get in fights. Etc, etc, etc.

   See a counselor and they will try to talk you into saying they have helped you, give me five stars and go away, forever healed, another success. Often unhappy people are nonetheless convinced that therapy helped them, when it only calmed them down and induced quiet despair. Failing  acknowledgement of relief the next step is drugs. Take these and go away, cured. If the drugs don't work, there are other drugs. Finally there is the mental institution, or jail. Human realm, animal realm, hell realm. Therapists are hell's ushers and attendants. A corrosive job, for which the only bleak refuge is getting therapy themselves. 

   You probably find yourself, if you are sensitive to mental trauma, giving the therapists therapy. If they aren't already numb, or jaded.

   The pain may be physical, or psycho-physical, but clearly the anger is the real problem here, in that obviously we cannot address your physical pain. Anger is like sex, it puts out chemicals that can be detected by the rat brain of mammals. We don't have names for these detections and so they are generally unconscious, but it is not unusual for people to react to others without the senses of sight touch or hearing being involved. Anger and lust can be detected in sweat. Women, for example, know very well what you are thinking when you are thinking that. Men know the smell of incipient violence, and fear.

   These are not conditions to have standing in a queue, if you can avoid it.

   What are the roots of your anger? I'm sure it is justified. The world is being torn apart before our eyes. A sensitive person views the human suffering now happening and to come with horror and blame.  Capitalism has reached end stage and only the rich have power, which they abuse flagrantly and maliciously. The seven deadly sins have been normalized.

    It is the diffusion of your anger that needs to be seen to. Anger can power the will, indeed that is its only purpose. The sufis say anger is the policeman of our inner psychic society. A destructive force nonetheless necessary to maintain order in the community, one that can get out of hand easily if not closely controlled by the wiser elements of the society.

   I would suggest using your anger to deal with your pain.

   Lstly, there is the question of the purity of your anger, of the degree of contamination by ego, defilements.

   Don't take any of this personally. You represent a class of victims, many suffering worse traumas than yours. We all need relief. Help us.


   

from the marriage of heaven and hell william blake


A MEMORABLE FANCY

The Prophets Isaiah and Ezekiel dined with me, and I asked them how they dared so roundly to assert that God spoke to them, and whether they did not think at the time that they would be misunderstood, and so be the cause of imposition.

Isaiah answered: “I saw no God, nor heard any, in a finite organical perception: but my senses discovered the infinite in everything; and as I was then persuaded, and remained confirmed, that the voice of honest indignation is the voice of God, I cared not for consequences, but wrote.”

Then I asked: “Does a firm persuasion that a thing is so, make it so?”

He replied: “All poets believe that it does, and in ages of imagination this firm persuasion removed mountains; but many are not capable of a firm persuasion of anything.”

I agree with Chris! 

It took me a few years and 4 therapists to find the one "I clicked with". 

The last one was really helpful. He also meditated in his life. I did share my thrauma stories and meditative ones and he sure had a very nice way to work with all that. 

Therapy and meds did help calm stuff down and make it more easy to look at once I've returned to meditation. 

Thanks for the further suggestions.  I'll try the Ellis book.



terry  "I would suggest using your anger to deal with your pain".

How would one do this in a constructive way? 

I really struggle to write or not to write something here. I've had my share of similar experiences where apparently psychic effects of my being are echoed to me by the environment. It does not make my words any more useful, though, but I'll throw my few cents here, not knowing if I really should or not.

It is curious how people respond to you. It is telling of the difficulty of us as human beings to relate to things that are next to impossible to define. Also it reveals that we would like to have clear-cut clarity of what things are and what they are not. Sometimes such clarity is only possible by decicion. What is real, what is true remains awkwardly unclear and living.

If I read correctly, there are a few takes: find someone to help you with the energetic issue - -  find someone to help with the underlying psychological condition - - rely on yourself and your real life, avoid councelors.

Obviously the whole picture might need all these and also something not mentioned by anyone here (including me!) for you to get into a more balanced place in regard to these psycho-social situations you find yourself in.

The other obvious thing is that whatever we find mysterious and hurting will become easier when we are more ok with what we are, what we feel and how we perceive our inner and outer world. The other obvious thing is that the difference and interaction between inner and outer is a mystery. The mind is both inner and outer, it is in between and it fluctuates into everything. A good therapist would understand at least something of this mysteriousness, and would at least try to help you to experience and express yourself as a whole being in the therapy sessions. There are good therapists, and bad ones too - no need to imagine that they all fit into a definition of any kind.

Maybe that's all I got to say. I hope you find your way of being you without too much pain.

Hi kettu,

Thanks for connecting.  I'd be interested to hear about your experiences specifically because I might relate.

I did an experiment whilst walking in the park just now.  Becoming peaceful or happy is impossible with this pain, but I found if I repeated a brief, positive piece of self-talk, it would have an effect on some the people I passed by.  Enough for me to know it worked.  And it worked even though I had no feeling for the words.  I just repeated them blandly, not even believing them.  That was surprising to me.  The moment I stopped, the effect stopped, so it requires a lot of work.  Need to experiment more, just so I'm sure I'm not fooling myself. 

I should mention I have no trouble integrating this psychic thing into my worldview.  It's just that when I'm miserable, people really target me in a nasty way.

   One uses it in a destructive way. Life is conflict.

   Anger will destroy you if not goal directed.

   Anger transmutes fear into action.

   You can fight your own impulses if they are obstacles to growth, fight addictions, compulsions, obsessions.

   You can argue, demonstrate, rattle cages. Fight evil and lies.

   It depends on your particular pain where you go with it. If you are suffering, others are suffering too. You don't have to be in therapy or a therapist to struggle for freedom.

   We should all counsel each others, we should all be experts on mental health. And in truth I imagine most of us would be as effective as someone trained for the job.


   I have actually worked in emergency rooms for decades, seen many people suffering mental health problems. My favorite hospital, wilcox on kauai, had mental health professionals on call for emergency admissions. We have had the police bring in people in total psychotic breakdown, people whose condition was frightening and disorienting for patients and staff. The pros would come in and know just what to do to calm the person and whisk them away, generally without the expedient of holding them down and administering drugs, whch unfortunately is all we can generally think of. I've been first responder myself and greatly appreciate the help of these experienced professionals, god bless them.

   The peole who are not psychotic, those who in former days would have sought clergy or relatives to help with their problems, are not well served by the current system in america and are conditioned to expect services which cannot and aren't being actually provided.

   So basically you are on your own anyway.  Anger an be used to clear your mind and focus your attention. Then go with the clear mind and focused attention to deal effectively as possible with causes of your pain.

   It's just about not being naive or spinning your wheels. And people helping each other and not depending on soulless capitalist hellscape institutions. Or at least giving some soul to those who lack.

​​​​​​​  Good luck.

"Try smile" as we say in hawaii.

  Most will do the easiest thing: give up.

Good that your little events don’t include your worldview crumbling down!

I guess your ways to cope will evolve and the work you need to put into it diminish. 


Thanks for asking for my experiences. I consider them not important and too personal to share in detail. Some are similar to yours - but I never had them as frequently as you seem to. Some of that happened with animals. My stuff is mostly inner and so create less objective evidence. Much of it could be disgarded as delusion - some, for me, not. Some would greet them as ”powers” which i find laughable. Life just is more diverse and suprising than generally thought. 

Be well!